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is this Attilas capital?

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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: is this Attilas capital?
    Posted: 30-Nov-2005 at 23:50
Originally posted by Priscus

we're not really talking about anytime after any retreat are we as that was counterproductive to land claims by the communists and as i say, many many policy makers are the old guard with new suits.  we're talking about maximum extent in this circumstance aren't we. thats why i said not the heartland. i've been to many of the sites including the holy mountain and in general they are all on the tops of hills in the mountains to be sure.

well i'm sure you have your sources saying illyrian, i have mine that say albanian.  illyria it would seem was outside dacia almosts as much as zsadany was wouldn't you say, however radical dacian historians are claiming trajans bridge as their construction.

The whole thing with  the Illyrians is that they were a branch of the Thracians, as were the Dacians. Yes, it's a big distance, but the Thracians were supposed to be "the second most numerous people in the world, after the Indians", according to Herodotus. So anyway, Albanian and Romanian would seem to have common words because they both evolved partly from related languages 2000 years ago.

There's another possibility that the Hungarians keep on pushing forward and to which the Romanians take great offense: that the Romanians may have developed as a people somewhere south of the Danube and just north of the Jiricek line.. But that's a big can of worms. If you'd like, you can check out the Medieval Transylvania topic where this was discussed ad nauseam.

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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2005 at 23:54

Originally posted by Priscus

you know you could prove me wrong by being a romanian that was open to the possibilty.

I'm not your average Romanian I don't care too much for nationalism, it's the historical truth that interests me.

I actually think it would be pretty damn cool if it was Attila's capital. Who knows, they could do some digging and find some artifacts that could shed some light on that obscure period. Hey, if all goes well, it could be a major tourist site in the future.

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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2005 at 23:58
Originally posted by Priscus

if you had any idea how many people i've emailed you'd think i was a nut because i'm sure i'm a nut. i haven't contacted anyone directly on this side of the atlantic because really its none of our business. i've been beaten down pretty badly so i'm a little touchy when i start talking to romanians and hungarians. you're wonderful people but dam you know how to hurt a poor canadians feelings. 

I apologize on behalf of my old compatriotes. I know, they can be a major pain in the a** when they want to be. Kind of like the French, but more provincial and with some Turkish attitude mixed in... No wonder they have such a bad rap. 

Who did you talk to? Did you try the archeological institue in Bucharest?

You know, it may not be such a bad idea to talk to a university here. The Romanians tend to be a lot more receptive when they're contacted through official channels. Make your case to some historian in Canada (what city are you from?), and maybe you can get him to call a Romanian institute or museum on behalf of the university. You may not get much recognition in the end, but hey, you could be part of a major discovery.



Edited by Decebal
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
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  Quote Priscus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2005 at 00:54

if you can find an email address on the cultural memory site, they've heard from me. if you can find an email address at nearly any institution in ro, i've spammed them. if they'd say it was built in 1720 to hold cows, great, wonderful but they must stop creating more mystery by being so mysterious. barking like a dog only makes me thinks there's good stuff in there.

i'm not interested in any type of recognition so i'm Iancu de Doe. i can hardly wait to see the tv show, i'll burn it for sure

if its old and unknown and not cowsrus, i would hope this might come up in a history/archeology class in university unexpectedly somewhere [hoped romania] and be solved in the true spirit of education which is supposed to include excitement, adventure and discovery. i never experienced any of those.

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  Quote Priscus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2006 at 07:56

a kind gentleman in germany has translated this map

http://www.dvhh.org/mercydorf/info/images/Ueberland_Mercydor f_Zsadany.jpg

he states that the earthworks are described as "romer schanze" or roman earthworks
he also states that anything that large would have been attributed to the romans whether they built it or not.


thanks uve

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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2006 at 11:57
Irregular concentric earthworks that size are almost certainly Iron Age fortifications. - a hill fort. (there are thousands of these across Europe)

The image isn't clear enough to read the rest. 
rgds.

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  Quote Priscus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2006 at 13:57

maiden castle is the largest iron age fort in europe at 120acres is this right?

you are looking at about 5000acres in this case. 



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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 08:42
The enclosed area on the map and in the Google image is under 200 acres (a 1km diameter circle).  This is big but within the range for iron age fortifications.  Maiden Castle encloses 44 acres as it's much narrower (1km by 400m ish) and is the biggest in the UK.

5000 acres is 20 sq km, a fair size town.

Pre iron age enclosures (eg those associates with standing stones, henges etc) were often much larger.


rgds.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 09:34
Originally posted by Priscus

timisoara is one of the most beautiful cities i've seen even with battle tanks on the roof of the courthouse. i'll go anyway, they've given me much over the years and i've never been back because everyone comes here for some reason. my culture is tissue.

this is where i get the dimension

http://216.109.132.28/test.jpg 

http://216.109.132.28/test1.jpg



I lost track of this one!

I didn't realize the outer wall that you seem to see so clearly. I was just figuring about the more clear central structure which in itself is way large.

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  Quote Priscus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 10:01

tom the city in google in 3.5miles x 2.5miles or 6kmx4km and when i pump the dimensions in feet into the acreage equation i get over 5600 and i took off some due to the odd shape.

http://216.109.132.28/test.jpg

http://216.109.132.28/test1.jpg

i know its quite unbelievable, i gave my head 10 shakes. it must be a known site but after weeks and weeks, i have nothing but a list of what it isn't. the avar capital ring was supposedly one in the same as attilas capital and the site seems to show 2 distinct periods of occupation and growth.

i wouldn't pursue  something the size of maiden castle. in that strip of romanian google there are 10 forts the size of maiden castle and 2 [excluding the two of the 5000acre variety] that are twice as big but could easily be medieval but thats doubtful as they aren't listed.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 10:03
Originally posted by Priscus

a kind gentleman in germany has translated this map

http://www.dvhh.org/mercydorf/info/images/Ueberland_Mercydor f_Zsadany.jpg

he states that the earthworks are described as "romer schanze" or roman earthworks
he also states that anything that large would have been attributed to the romans whether they built it or not.



Did they do any diggings at any time or they just drawed a map of the visible structure? It finally seems that you have been the first one to spot that - logical, such a large structure, particularly the central part couldn't remain occult so easily.

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  Quote Priscus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 10:13
he didn't elaborate too much, i think he has alot of maps but he's not archaeological. he pointed out that romer schanze is all over every map of the time even into last century. it was simply what the cartographers did when they encountered something of the very large variety like a wall that went for miles and miles

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  Quote Priscus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 11:52
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  Quote Priscus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 12:00

and here... this is very speculative but... appears to be roman and its on the known roman wall which you can see touching it to the east

http://maps.google.com/?t=k&ll=45.881166,21.277599&s pn=0.017597,0.034418&t=k

curiously you see many dots on the floor of that valley to left. a necropolis? a city as large as what seems to be there would have one i would think.

what were the hun burials like? i've read that they are simple pit, kurgan, classic steppe with the processional way leading to the square tomb enclosure. what is the answer?



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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 12:29
The only way to find is to go there with an archaeological team and a budget and dig, dig, dig...

Anyhow, I must say that I find to see the contours on your satellite fotos. In some images I may see something but in others...

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  Quote Priscus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 13:18

i have a big monitor so features present themselves well.

some of the links don't land well i must say but most are perfect circles, one is a fort on a spur with ditch lines? like maiden castle and the in roman item look for the parallel row of columns and focus out. in google earth the features of the roman item jump out.

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 14:59
The circles could be (a guess) those wooden temples of the Neolithic period of which many have been unearthed recently in Germany and sold as "the oldest civilization", when all the context is merely rural. 

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  Quote Priscus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 15:19
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  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 20:30
Originally posted by Priscus

tom the city in google in 3.5miles x 2.5miles or 6kmx4km and when i pump the dimensions in feet into the acreage equation i get over 5600 and i took off some due to the odd shape.

http://216.109.132.28/test.jpg

http://216.109.132.28/test1.jpg

i know its quite unbelievable, i gave my head 10 shakes. it must be a known site but after weeks and weeks, i have nothing but a list of what it isn't. the avar capital ring was supposedly one in the same as attilas capital and the site seems to show 2 distinct periods of occupation and growth.

i wouldn't pursue  something the size of maiden castle. in that strip of romanian google there are 10 forts the size of maiden castle and 2 [excluding the two of the 5000acre variety] that are twice as big but could easily be medieval but thats doubtful as they aren't listed.



When measuring these things you look at the area enclosed by the main feature,  measured this way your feature is about twice the size of Maiden Castle.  As a comparison the whole thing (6x4km) is much smaller than the Stonehenge complex ( a 90m diamiter circle part of a large comples covering around 20km by 2km).

Overlapping features from different periods can also give an impression of a larger more complex site.


Edited by tadamson
rgds.

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  Quote Priscus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 22:17

i agree if you are looking at it only as if it were iron age and nothing else and if it were iron age, i agree that you would have to assume that the inner structure was the main feature as the main feature would be judged maybe, only maybe because of the spacing of the wall features. iron age forts usually have close lines of walls therefore they are often judged by the liveable area. i think in this instance you'd have a hard time selling your point for a $c

i'd have a hard time equating stonehenge, complex or not to a city not that i'm sure you can't, but my brain isn't so limber anymore.

lets move ahead in time.  the imperial city of rome is not judged by anything but its wall not any of the hills. constantinople is not judged even by the wall of severus but by the wall of theo. would you ever say london is only as big as the tower castle. no its not iron age.

would the pallisade around attilas palace if this were the case be judged to be the extent of the city? no its a building in a city the total extent of which is marked by a boundry wall.

if it is iron age and your bent on judging it by the main feature, then lets call it the largest iron age in fort in europe and i get to name it "toms folly". or you could prove its attila's capital, name it what you like and live for all time in the pages of a book under your full name. i'm not trying, i'm guardian of the truth, advocate to the scourge of god. 

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