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How did the Ottomans enter WW1?

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How did the Ottomans enter WW1?
    Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 09:11

What was the point of Gallipoli? Why did the British and French Land, what was the objective of such a move?

Did they attack because the Ottomans declared on Germany's side? Or were the Ottomans entrapped in some sly move by the French and British who had long eyed their Middle Eastern resources?

I personally am partial to the latter, I think Britian and France's intentions were clear enough after the war when they greedily carved up the middle east into spheres of influence and ignored the call of Arab Nationalists (and brutally suppressed them).

 



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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 09:30

The British and French had a double incentive in attempting this bold move. With one strike, they would take the Ottoman empire out of the war, by taking its capital and at the same time they would be able to open the Hellespont straights, so they could supply the Russians and open a second frond at the south of the German offensive. Their planing though, was not as good as their intentions...

Of course, referring to the thread title, the Ottomans did not enter the war because of Gallipoli. They were already in.



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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 09:40
So how and why did they enter the war?
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 12:03

In a nutshell: they wanted to gain territory from the Russians and gain control in the Balkan region. The Ottoman army was organized and drilled by the Germans and overall the Ottomans allied with Germany & Austria as a counterbalance to the England-France-Russia alliance. Therefor, when war was a reality, they had no other option but to enter on the side of the Germans.

 



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 12:27

Originally posted by Zagros

So how and why did they enter the war?

Because our panTurkist authority (not the sultan, "Ittihad ve Terakki" or "Young Turks", simply Enver Pasha) who wanted more Anatolians to suffer for the higher benefits of Germany on Ottoman lands and Uzbek resistance against Russia, ordered us to do so. It was one of the most absurd decisions of the empire's history...



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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 13:31
Originally posted by Yiannis

In a nutshell: they wanted to gain territory from the Russians and gain control in the Balkan region. The Ottoman army was organized and drilled by the Germans and overall the Ottomans allied with Germany & Austria as a counterbalance to the England-France-Russia alliance. Therefor, when war was a reality, they had no other option but to enter on the side of the Germans.

I agree here. Historical evidance proves that the Ottomans wanted to regain parts of what they lost, especially after the 1912 Balkan wars and their Asian lost territories to Russia. Enver Pasha attacked the Russians and joined the central powers without the order of the caliph. The Ottomans wanted to regain lost lands and it was not a defense war as Jihad is typically for.  It is also said that Ismail Pasha needed a victory over the Russians to hold his seat, especially after the Balkan Wars.

However, I don't gree with the notion that the Ottomans had no choice but to join on the side of Germany and Austria. The Ottomans entered the War after the Western Front had settled down to static trench warfare, but the Germans had achieved major victories against the Russians on the Eastern Front. The Ottomons declared war on Russia on October 29, 1914 hoping it is the chance to regain some of what they lost. They entered when they thought the Germans are winning the war. So they had the option to stay neutral as Italy did.



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  Quote Jazz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 19:08
If I recall correctly, the Ottomans did not even declare war, they simply entered by bombing Odessa (Russian port city - now Ukrainian - on the Black Sea coast) with their warships...
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 19:36
OK, thanks for the info.
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 10:15

I have read the memoirs of many Ittihat ve Terakki leading politicians...

They all say that they had fears of Russian expansion,so if they joined,it could prevent Russia from emerging as a stronger power after the great war.

Russia had already made it clear that they wanted Istanbul long time before WWI.

so I would say the reason why we joined was the Russian Syndrome.

The man,who was the general secratary of CUP points out that the Imperialist Tsarist regime fell down which was their reason to join the war.

We entered the war,because two ex-german naval units bombed Odessa and Sevastopol ports,which were parts of The Russian Empire then.

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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 03:37
Originally posted by ok ge

Originally posted by Yiannis

In a nutshell: they wanted to gain territory from the Russians and gain control in the Balkan region. The Ottoman army was organized and drilled by the Germans and overall the Ottomans allied with Germany & Austria as a counterbalance to the England-France-Russia alliance. Therefor, when war was a reality, they had no other option but to enter on the side of the Germans.

I agree here. Historical evidance proves that the Ottomans wanted to regain parts of what they lost, especially after the 1912 Balkan wars and their Asian lost territories to Russia. Enver Pasha attacked the Russians and joined the central powers without the order of the caliph. The Ottomans wanted to regain lost lands and it was not a defense war as Jihad is typically for.  It is also said that Ismail Pasha needed a victory over the Russians to hold his seat, especially after the Balkan Wars.

However, I don't gree with the notion that the Ottomans had no choice but to join on the side of Germany and Austria. The Ottomans entered the War after the Western Front had settled down to static trench warfare, but the Germans had achieved major victories against the Russians on the Eastern Front. The Ottomons declared war on Russia on October 29, 1914 hoping it is the chance to regain some of what they lost. They entered when they thought the Germans are winning the war. So they had the option to stay neutral as Italy did.

Italians weren't neutral. They switched sides from the Germans to the British-French. Also they occupied Southwest Anatolia... 

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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 03:46

The Union and Progress Party tried to be allies with the British-German first, but they were rejected because at the same time they wanted to end the semi-colonial character of the Ottoman Empire by abolishing the capitulations. So, the Germans second choice of the UPP. The UPP evolved from a liberal character to a protectionist-nationalist one because of the political troubles they faced after the Revolution of 1908.

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 06:31

Originally posted by kotumeyil

Italians weren't neutral. They switched sides from the Germans to the British-French. Also they occupied Southwest Anatolia... 

You are right that Italians joined the Allies in the war and occupied southwestern Anatolia. However, Italy was committed to defend Germany and Austria-Hungary only in the event of a 'defensive' war; arguing that their actions were 'offensive', Italy declared instead a policy of neutrality. So initially Italians were actually neutral.

Only in the following year, in May 1915, where Italy sided the allies. against her two former allies.

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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 03:29
Since Peter the Great there had been an enduring logic of conflict between the State of Russia and The State of Ottoman.
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  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 08:48

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Since Peter the Great there had been an enduring logic of conflict between the State of Russia and The State of Ottoman.

Exactly. Wars between the Ottomans and the Russians had been long going on since the XVIII Century. The WWI was just another excuse. Russia wanted to take full control of the Balkans (with their traditional paternalist and protectionist view about their cousins, the orthodox serbs and other slavs) for some time and the Ottomans, who had been repeatedly losing to Russia, felt more and more threatened for her advance.

At some point, war was invitable. This of course changed, when both the Russian Tsarist Empire and the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist and gave place to USSR and Turkey.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 13:53
Is it true that USSR supported the indepence war of the Turkish Republic?
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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 17:01
I think they did.As far as i know Lenin supplied Ataturk with rifles,amonitions..........After all they both are making at that time revolutions for freedom and support each other.But i dont know nothing more detailed about this.
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 19:04

Soviet Union was Turkey's most important ally during the Independence War. They published the Sykes-Picot agreement and other secret protocols which foresaw the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire, and humiliated the British and the French. They gave political and diplomatic support (sent Red Army generals to Ankara before Sakarya battle to show solidarity), and sent money, weapons (thousands of rifles, artillery), equipment (trucks) and ammunition.

Soviet help was so important, Ataturk had erected statues of Red Army generals. If you look to the republic monument in Istanbul's Taksim square, behind the statues of Ataturk and Inonu, you'll see them, General Mihail Vasilyevich Frunze and Marshall Kliment Yefremovich Voroshilov.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taksim_Square

But of course, they won't teach this in school.

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 20:47
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Soviet Union was Turkey's most important ally during the Independence War. They published the Sykes-Picot agreement and other secret protocols which foresaw the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire, and humiliated the British and the French. They gave political and diplomatic support (sent Red Army generals to Ankara before Sakarya battle to show solidarity), and sent money, weapons (thousands of rifles, artillery), equipment (trucks) and ammunition.

Soviet help was so important, Ataturk had erected statues of Red Army generals. If you look to the republic monument in Istanbul's Taksim square, behind the statues of Ataturk and Inonu, you'll see them, General Mihail Vasilyevich Frunze and Marshall Kliment Yefremovich Voroshilov.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taksim_Square

But of course, they won't teach this in school.

Why won't they teach it in school?

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2005 at 03:36
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

  

Why won't they teach it in school?

Anti - communism. Communism was illegal in Turkey. I believe that Communist parties only became legal a few years ago (have they indeed?)

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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2005 at 03:45
Today there's a legal communist party in Turkey...
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