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Egypt Origins

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Egypt Origins
    Posted: 06-Oct-2004 at 21:14
women were white becasue white chikcs are mroe attractive, just look at japan, ther Geishas paint themselves completely white, so it'S just a beauty thing entering the world of wall paintings...
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  Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 07:45
I stand correct, Tobodai.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 11:29
lol I ve just noticed a strange thing in this thread, it seems that theres some sort of rudimentary censorship program that refuses to allow me to type Kush*te as it detects the "s-h-i-t" part and take sout the i.  Strangeness.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 11:29
yeah it did it again! 
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  Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 14:08
I wondered why you kept typing it like that.  LOL
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 18:30

Good point Cornellia. The reason why Egyptian males were always painted a reddish brown is symbolic, not factual. For one thing, Egyptian art is a highly symbolic art form, and nothing is to be taking literally.

 Hmmm, that would be wrong. Actually the pictures are very concise, an analogy to that would be English language. Everyone has his own handwriting but the language is standardized. Same thing for Egyptian pictures, it is standardized, the colour tone is accurate and they'll portray all gods as giant for instance. Everything is precisely pictured and you can have an accurate idea what jars, what ships and what and how they hunt from their pictures. In some case skin tone has a particular significance like for the gods. However on that picture that woman is clearly white. The reason why many women is portrayed as white rather than black is simply most of those women are not real Egyptian but foreigners or of strong foreign ancestry. Usually the elite only are portrayed and many Pharaohs married foreign women. These women became the elite and are therefore commonly portrayed. However the common Egyptian women are still african in origin (African here is a vague term since it is far from being a race but an extremely varied type of people). I'll put the original Egyptian as exactly the same as the Ethiopian wildess tribe as well as the coptic Egyptian. Any idea that the Egyptian has arabic roots should be disgraded. Clearly Egyptian prior to Ramses II or III were an africoid race but later they become more mixed up and can hardly to be called africans.

 That case will be similar to us french, the original people were from Gaul, but the romans, Franks and scandinavians also came and gave the country another dimension. I want history to be told as it is, and speculations and myths should all be disgarded. The same kind of myths have led to people to believe that normans were viking rather than french.

 

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  Quote boody4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2004 at 21:33
"I used Ethiopia not because the Greeks did but because that's the modern day equivalent to the area, Tobodai, and you are correct - to a point. 

In Egyptian wall paintings, men are painted a dark (but never as dark as the known ancient blacks) BUT women are painted white.

So, if Egyptian wall paintings show Egyptian society as it is.............................and we know that Egyptian pharoahs married their female close kin...............why are the men dark and the women white?  If they share the same genetic code, wouldn't they be the same color?"

Um i think the answer could also be as simple as the women wore a lot of makeup...including "face whitener".

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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2004 at 03:05

So, if Egyptian wall paintings show Egyptian society as it is.............................and we know that Egyptian pharoahs married their female close kin...............why are the men dark and the women white?  If they share the same genetic code, wouldn't they be the same color?"

Um i think the answer could also be as simple as the women wore a lot of makeup...including "face whitener".

 Nope I don't think those women wear whiteners but are clearly white or very light in skin colour. The reason for then being white is that they are not Egyptian of origin but more likely foreigners, perhaps from greek. The vast majority of pictograms however portray women as dark and that picture probably date much after Ramses II. Below is a more accurate smaple of Egyptian women.

 

Image

 

 Queen Tiy wooden carving, now you are not going to tell this women is an arab.

Image showing a woodern carving depicting Queen Tiy

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2004 at 14:26
yeah, wall paintings arent accurate, but in the more realistic sculpture you can see people who prolly look real close to reality, those small wooden dummies and sculptures all show a very brown people.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2004 at 15:41

According to this site, the question of Egyptian "race" cannot be truly answered using Egyptian art. 

http://www.focusanthro.org/essays/jackson--03-04.html

See also this site as to how Tutankhamun was portrayed as both "black" and "brown", as well as other interesting details.

http://www.catchpenny.org/race.html

The general consensus, however, is that the Egyptians were already a mix of various races in predynastic times, and that they viewed themselves as different and superior than everyone else.  "Race" in the modern sense of the word was not a valid category in Egyptian society.   What was a category was borders and culture.   A foreigner could become an "Egyptian". 

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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2004 at 16:46
Here is excerpt from 'The Worlds First Melting Pot' by Mark Andrews:

Examination of human remains from the Predynastic period shows a mixture of racial types, including negroid, Mediterranean and European. However, by the time that the dynastic period was clearly established, the racial types were already mixed to a large extent.. Therefore, the issue of race usually surfaces in regard to the protodynastic period (3100-2900 BC). Some scholars, such as W. B. Emery, believed that the predynastic Egyptians were conquered by a new race from the east. Skeletal evidence does in fact suggest that there was a physical or racial change during this period, but other scholars believe that the change was more gradual.. They think that the indigenous Egyptian population was gradually infiltrated by people from Syria-Palestine though the Delta region.

Recent studies by anthropologist C. Loring Brace, along with his co-researchers, taking a look at cranial measurements, suggest that the early Egyptians were similar to people from Southwest Asia and Neolithic Europe, as well as North and Northeast Africa. However, the study seems to rule out commonality with Africans from.

The Pharaonic Period

During Egypt's 3,000 year Pharaonic period, Egypt was both a captor and a captive of other lands. They both ruled Nubia, and were ruled by Nubia. There were Hyksos and Persians, and later certainly Greek and Roman populations within Egypt, as well as slaves from a number of different areas. Again, these cultures mixed, along with marriage, to a lesser or greater extent.

The Arabs

Most believe that whatever the racial mix at the end of the phraraonic period, the Arab invasion some 1,400 years ago probably had a considerable effect upon the indigenous population. Populations from any number of Arabic countries, from modern Saudi Arabia to Turkey came to Egypt, mixed with the Egyptians and largely resulted in the race of Egyptians we know today. Interestingly, however, DNA studies at the University of Cairo report that there is little differences between modern and ancient Egyptians. Of course, books on Egypt often point to members of the Coptic Christian faith as being closer in race to the ancient Egyptians, because they supposedly do not marry outside the ancient faith.

Regardless of what race came to Egypt first, what is most clear is that it has always been a melting pot of humanity, as it surely remains today. Ancient Egypt was a crossroad of civilizations, who often came to Egypt for one reason or another, and very often stayed on to become Egyptians themselves.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2004 at 19:51
goes to support my theory that mutt societies do better than less diverse ones.
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  Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2004 at 03:27

I believe that the preponderance of archaeological, historical and literary evidence at this time leans toward the theory that Egyptian civilization developed as a unique culture in the Nile Valley. While there was contact with outsiders; Egyptian culture tended to look inward rather than outward until the invasion of the Hyksos forced them to consider the world outside of the Nile valley. There was certainly early contact between the civilizations - there are many well-documented pieces of correspondence between the rulers of the Nile valley and the rulers of the various states in Asia - from Anatolia to the Tigris and Euphrates valleys.

In addition to the written records of contact, there is a strong tradition of portraiture in Egypt. Portraits of foreigners were not uncommon, so the claim the article makes that the knife handle (which is not pictured, nor could I find a photo with the catalogue numbers given) is based on persons from either Sumeria or Susa is entirely possible. There are a number of images of foreigners throughout Egyptian history - becoming more common in the later Dynasties of the New Kingdom as contact with other cultures increased. Egyptian art certainly had a political side, rarely are foreigners depicted in a good light. They are either supplicants or diplomats appearing before the pharaoh or the conquered, being walked on and tortured by their conquerors. Some of the best portraits of foreigners familiar to many are the various articles in the Tutahnkamun collection in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. In this collection alone are the sandal images, the painted box and the cane and weapon handles as fine examples of exactly this practice of denigrating everyone (Asians, Hittites, Syrians, Lybians, Nubians) who is not Egyptian .

Painted Box:

http://www.nilemuse.com/muse/TutBoxF.html

with a closer look here:

http://www.nilemuse.com/muse/TutBoxF.lg.html#chestFront

amd the other side here:

http://dsc.discovery.com/anthology/unsolvedhistory/kingtut/t omb/tomb_zoom4.html

 

These examples lead me to the next thought - the color of skin in ancient Egyptian art. Egyptian art is quite stylized - which is one of the reasons that it is such a good record of Egyptian thought and culture. Had it been ore expressionistic, it would have been more fluid and conventions would have changed more quickly, leading to a greater difficulty in interpretation. As it remained static for so man years (with the exception of the Amarna period), concepts and ideas are easily identifiable.

There was a short article on the old site regarding the use of color in Egyptian wall painting. Egyptian men were always depicted as red, Egyptian women as a lighter color.  Most of the discussion of wall painting applies as well to decorative painting on furniture and household items as many of the conventions were the same, although the materials were different and have therefore produced different colors as the years passed.

See the article by Mark Andrews here: http://touregypt.net/featurestories/artoverview.htm

And particularly the article by Marie Parsons here: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/colors.htm

There are also good Egyptian portraiture links here: http://www.nefertiti.iwebland.com/portraiture/index.html

Some good examples of the conventional use of color in Egyptian art can be found here:

http://www.touregypt.net/magazine/mag01012001/magf4.htm

http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_Of_Art/viewHigh.asp?dep=10&am p;viewmode=0&set=02

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/21513/

(in particular #13, 25 and 28)

and compare the soldiers in these two photos:

http://www.hat.net/album/middle_east/004_egypt/day_48_egypti an_museum/detail029.htm

http://www.hat.net/album/middle_east/004_egypt/day_48_egypti an_museum/detail028.htm

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  Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2004 at 03:37

re:  portrait of Queen Tiye shown above

This is an Amarna period piece and cannot be compared to sculpture or painting  from other dynasties - there are many confusing portraits from the Amarna period.  Akenaten' artists portrayed the royal family in a very strange way.  Some have interpreted these portraits as being realistic, others as being, in their own way, quite stylized.  Compare this portrait of Tiye with Portraits of Nefertiti and others from the Amarna period here:

-a.htm">http://www.nefertiti.iwebland.com/portraiture/1-a.htm

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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2004 at 06:18
Hey vagabond,good to see you. The code denied the last link.

-a.htm">Armana

http://www.nefertiti.iwebland.com/portraiture/

Edited by Catt
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  Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2004 at 00:14

Thanks Catt - good to be seen -

Oops  sorry - let's try

-a.htm">http://www.nefertiti.iwebland.com/portraiture/1-a.htm

(Strange - I know I didn't put that smilie in there???)

Hmmmm!

Got it - it should read  " http:......./1 8 d - a.htm "

The site code is reading the 8 d together as a smilie

You'l have to go to this page:

http://www.nefertiti.iwebland.com/portraiture/index.html

then look under New Kingdom/18th dynasty/from the riegn of Akhenaten until the end of the dynasty

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  Quote Ptolemy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2004 at 01:36

If you want to find the original egyptian, look among the coptic egyptian, they didn't marry the invaders.

A few people have mentioned this before, but you can't really tell the difference between a Copt and a muslim Egyptian. Albeit, there are more Copts in the south, and the people of upper Egypt are slightly darker.

Also, does anyone know how much Greeks and Jews contributed to modern Egyptians DNA?

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2004 at 08:49

Not sure about the Jews but there were many Greeks living in Egypt until the 1960's.

My (limited) knowlegde is that they didn't intermary with the Egyptians (definately not with the Muslim ones) so they're not very likely to have any sizeable contribution to modern Egyptian DNA.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 09:05
Originally posted by Temujin

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl]

 from right to left: A syrian, a nubian, a lybian and an Egyptian.

actually the first guy s Lybian and the third is syrian. you can easily tell the Lybians by those feathers or whatever on their heads...

INDEEDAs an Egyptian and "regular" museum visitor you should have spotted that. on a mural one can see the forces of Pharaoh Merneptha fighting with the "Lybians"dressed like the First person above, but who knows? the Greek and Lybians may have dressed alike in his time, whilst the "Syrian"HAS a Mycenean, skirt.  The Greeks wore long pointed beards untill 500 bc afterwards they wore none and appear in "summer casual clothing"or at least their ancient Heros were painted on vases with shaven faces except Heracles. The "Egyptian" is painted in light brownbut this may be "traditional" andheactualy coulve been "European-White". Most"Nilotes" are pitch/Blue black but with European features.  "True Negroes  as we think to know them are the Bantu-Species.Besides the "Nubians"are an "enclave between Lower-Egypt and the Sudan-Negroes probably"discarded"egyptian military mercenaries-Veterans but from what Epoch???  The"MEDYAH

or"Mesh-Wesh"were definately present(Hamite-) "Massaii"who inter-married with White egyptian Women and"Egypt once had colonies in Kenia & Somalia;  during the early 18th Dynasty.

 

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 23:32

"Syrian"HAS a Mycenean, skirt.

or rather, the Mycenaean has a "Syrian" skirt

Besides the "Nubians"are an "enclave between Lower-Egypt and the Sudan-Negroes probably"discarded"egyptian military mercenaries-Veterans but from what Epoch???

Bad geography lesson.  Between Lower Egypt and the Sudan is Upper Egypt. 

"Nubians" (Egyptian, Nehasyu) is the collective name of all peoples south of the 1st Cataract (i.e. south of Upper Egypt), not "discarded Egyptian mercenaries". 

The"MEDYAH or"Mesh-Wesh"were definately present(Hamite-) "Massaii"who inter-married with White egyptian Women and"Egypt once had colonies in Kenia & Somalia;  during the early 18th Dynasty

They were different peoples.   The Medjay were a Lower Nubian tribe.  The Meshwesh were a Libyan people.  The ethnicity of the Nubians was not the result of "white" Egyptian women marrying native males.  True, Nubia was subject to Egyptian military and economic occupation at various periods, but nothing suggests a change in the physical anthropology of the Nubians. 

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