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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Gender Jihad"
    Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 09:28
Islam feminists urge gender jihad

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4384512.stm


By Danny Wood
BBC News, Madrid

Valentine Moghadam (centre) talks with delegates
Women from the Islamic world are attending the three-day conference
Organisers of the first international congress on Islamic feminism are calling for a "gender jihad."

Organiser Abdennur Prado Pavon says the struggle for gender equality in Islamic countries involves refuting chauvinist interpretations of Muslim teachings.

The congress is in Spain, organisers say, because they want their message to reach the growing number of Muslim women in Europe.

Around 300 delegates are looking at women's rights in the Islamic world.

Mr Prado, of the Catalan Islamic board, believes a common misconception in the West is that women's liberation is not possible in Muslim societies.

Activists representing the Islamic feminist movement are in Barcelona to counter that view and discuss ways of achieving female equality in an Islamic context.

Collaboration

Among the delegates is the Pakistani feminist Riffat Hassan, regarded as one of the pioneers of Islamic feminist theology.

Also here are representatives from the international association, Islamic Feminism.

Islamic Feminism argues that the inferior legal and social status of women in Muslim countries is a result of misogynistic distortions of the teachings in the Koran.

Organisers say they want more collaboration with western feminists but say non-Muslim feminists need to challenge their anti-Islamic stereotypes.

_____________

I find this congress and its discourse most interesting. What do you think?

A direct link to the International Congress on Islamic Feminism, taking place these days at Barcelona is: http://www.feminismeislamic.org/eng/congress.htm

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 09:44
It is more than interesting. It is necessary. Women, according to the Koran, are treated equal to men except for a few rare instances. Yet in most moslem societies, women tend to be second class citizens. The list is too huge to cover. Maybe we could get that issue discussed anyway. I am all for it. For encouring them to shake my hand, to lead the Friday prayer, to go the the store without an escort, to enter politics, to talk about anything that men would talk about, to sit a the same tabel as men in public gatherings, etc.
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 13:41
This is good news!
Women have a lot to contribute to society and should not be considered second class citizens, but equal to thier male counterparts. I am glad to see that there is a bit of optimism in this article.


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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 13:47

For encouring them to shake my hand,

Sorry but, what this have relation with equality?

 

 

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 15:50

Mortaza maybe you are not aware of the injuntion that many moslem males have produced for themselves. These traditionalists do not shake the hand of a women.

PS - At least not when other moslems are looking. But I did catch the same culprit in the hypocritical act of handshaking when no-one was supposedly watching.

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 16:18

Mortaza maybe you are not aware of the injuntion that many moslem males have produced for themselves. These traditionalists do not shake the hand of a women.

I know It is, but I dont understand what is relation of this with equality.

It is not only man who dont shake hand of women, but also religious women dont hand shake with a man. This has no relation with equality.

Nor this woman neither man thing other gender as second class.

 

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 17:26

What does this kind of stuff have to do with equality?

Discrimination starts at often unassuming levels. Subordination is not my cup of tea. Mutual respect is the key here. Looking at it this way religious men and women have to blame eachother then for secluding themselves from mutual social activities. I'll go out on a limb here and say that men created a position for women that is equal to their own mental and social insecurities.

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 18:16

Two different points:

1- Status of women and Equality

2- women's norms, and roles.

  Status of Women & Equality: women should have all rights to practice their life and to render their decisions without supervision. This include their right to drive, to work, to marry, to vote...etc. Here you cannot say a man can drive but a woman cannot or a man can vote and a woman cannot. This is a restriction on a general accepted rights for all human being. Violaton of those rights is rendering a person as a second class citizen for sure.

   Second, women's norms, and roles: women have to maintain their distinct characters and follow the feminine roles in the society. A woman has to dress modestly. they cannot demand equality in dress by asking to allow them to wear mini skirts. What equality? let us both men and women wear skirts so we can be equal. Dress codes, norms and roles are designed for each gender for what it fits him. You cannot make it equal because simply a man is different than a woman. They are simply different. Same goes for the other roles. A woman can lead the whole parliment if she wants. However Seko, a Woman cannot lead a mix group in Friday prayer. It is a position designed for men, their voice, and their customs. It does not mean a woman is inferior. A woman can be a religious scholar and a teacher. Best example is hazra Aisha, the prophet wife, who taught a lot of companions.  Again: religious practices and rules are destributed based on roles. If a man has to be the Imam in a mosque prayer, then a man has to be standing there leading in a prayer. If a woman has to be given a wedding dowry, then a woman receive a dowry and not the man and she keeps it for herself. These are roles prescribed and has nothing to do with equality. These are rules that sometimes we can find the wisdom behind them and sometimes we cannot, but they are rules and codes that does not restrict any gender's rights of enjoying life and receive an equal treatment when dealing with. When you subscribe to a religion, you follow its rules as much as you do when you enter a corporation. 



Edited by ok ge
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  Quote oTToMAn_TurK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 19:41

Organiser Abdennur Prado Pavon says the struggle for gender equality in Islamic countries involves refuting chauvinist interpretations of Muslim teachings.

i am happy with this just so long as they dont twist or compromise the koran to convince muslim woman.

Islam has affirmed the principle of equality and human fraternity for 15 centuries in one koranic verse: "Mankind, Reverence your GuardianLord, Who created you from a Single Person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered countless men and women."; The Prophet Mohamed - God's blessing and peace be upon Him - also said "All people are equal like a comb's teeth".

 

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 21:30
I agree with 90% of the above two posts. However, I am not convinced about group prayer leadership being taboo for women. Can someone verify their position on this?
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  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 00:14
Originally posted by Seko

It is more than interesting. It is necessary. Women, according to the Koran, are treated equal to men except for a few rare instances. Yet in most moslem societies, women tend to be second class citizens. The list is too huge to cover. Maybe we could get that issue discussed anyway. I am all for it. For encouring them to shake my hand, to lead the Friday prayer, to go the the store without an escort, to enter politics, to talk about anything that men would talk about, to sit a the same tabel as men in public gatherings, etc.


i believe most of these are cultural norms rather than ones adapted from the qu'ran, and completely agree with you.
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  Quote Super Goat (^_^) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 01:35
the reason men dont shake the hands of women isnt because they think women are inferior, they just think its disrespectfull for a man to touch a women other than his wife/daughter/relative etc...

as for women leadin prayers...
The matter actually relates to the general practice of the Prophet  (pbuh), which was subsequently followed by the Muslim leaders that followed the Prophet (pbuh). This practice of the Prophet (pbuh) as well as the Muslim leaders, who followed him, subsequently became a part of the social traditions of the Muslims. Thus, it is not a directive of the Shari`ah, but a part of the Muslim cultural tradition that men, rather than women should lead prayers. This gender-based distinction, it seems, has its basis on a few important facts.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=q uestion&qid=805

so it all comes down to culture and tradition



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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 09:20

Well I dont think equality have any relation with hand shaking or leading prayers. We should interested more with using force against woman,  jailing them to home, or dont senting them to school.

Religious people of Turkey(educated ones) is far from to use force against woman or jailing them home. Infact they want to educate their girls(And It becomes a problem in Turkey as you know), and They dont like If people used force against woman.

Infact If we want to create equality with woman, we should to protect them. They have not enough force(as a whole) to live alone. Our first priority should to increase their education and protect them, until they can stand alone.

And this have nothing with islam, but culture of countries. This jihad thing is absurd.

 

 

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 10:11

Originally posted by Super Goat (^_^)

the reason men dont shake the hands of women isnt because they think women are inferior, they just think its disrespectfull for a man to touch a women other than his wife/daughter/relative etc...

as for women leadin prayers...
The matter actually relates to the general practice of the Prophet  (pbuh), which was subsequently followed by the Muslim leaders that followed the Prophet (pbuh). This practice of the Prophet (pbuh) as well as the Muslim leaders, who followed him, subsequently became a part of the social traditions of the Muslims. Thus, it is not a directive of the Shari`ah, but a part of the Muslim cultural tradition that men, rather than women should lead prayers. This gender-based distinction, it seems, has its basis on a few important facts.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=q uestion&qid=805

so it all comes down to culture and tradition

You know what Super Goat? You presented a pretty good answer. Well done!

One thing I understand from it is that the shaking of the hands part is more cultural than religiously oriented, originally.

Thanks for the tradition on leading prayers example. Role models are improtant in Islam.  Men have been leaders in many of the important roles  in our religion. However, I am not 100% certain that women cannot lead prayers. My personal desire is for them to do so for the sake of more respectfull and equal opportunities. This can then trickle down to having more respect towards women in other functions of life. Perhaps this action would become a preventative measure against the future 'Talibans' of the world. Beyond my personal values though is the weight that the Koran provides. I still need time to figure this one out.

 

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 15:54
Originally posted by Seko

Thanks for the tradition on leading prayers example. Role models are improtant in Islam.  Men have been leaders in many of the important roles  in our religion. However, I am not 100% certain that women cannot lead prayers. My personal desire is for them to do so for the sake of more respectfull and equal opportunities.

There are no equal-opportunity issue in this at all. It is Ebadat (worships and rituals) issue. A man leading a prayer in a mosque is not scoring an opportunity. If he teaches and he is a scholar, then yes, that is an opportunity to score. Which also women have the right to teach religious knowledge as their counter-men can do so.

 

Originally posted by Seko

This can then trickle down to having more respect towards women in other functions of life. Perhaps this action would become a preventative measure against the future 'Talibans' of the world. Beyond my personal values though is the weight that the Koran provides. I still need time to figure this one out.

Not really. There are many ways to show respect and to push for equality. Our history is filled with examples of equality and respect. Also, nothing is called a "preventive measure" in Islamic rituals. If you think women can lead a mix-gender prayer in a mosque as a way of  "preventive measure" for their rights. You are exactly using the same logic of some fanatics who would tell you that it is Haram to talk to women other than your relatives and wife and only for necessety, as a  "preventive measure" for not falling down to flirting and adulterty. The logic of  "preventive measure" is definitely the main argument they always rise for tons of things they make unpermissible for Muslims.

Finally, the established priniciple in Islam that "while wordly matters are assumed to be permissible until proven otherwise, all religious acts are considered forbidden unless a basis can be established in the Quran or Sunnah". this prevent innovation in worshipping and rituals. That is why all Muslims fast as an obligation the month of Ramadan and not Ramadan and another month, and that is why all Muslims pray Fajr two Rak'ahs and no one can come and say, "I love god, I want to make my fajr 10 Rak'ahs for him". No invention in religious matters and rituals. Afterall, wasn't this religion prefected on the day this verse was revealed in the Quran "This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and chosen for you Islam as your religion" [5:3]

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 16:13

Hai guys

 

This is a very interesting topic we have here..

 

Gender Jihad? Well.. Is it a fight for Islam womens right according to Islamic way and to change non-Muslim misconception on Islam women? Or it just a propaganda which is used by certain party to mislead Islam women into confusion? Islam women nowadays need to be careful in accepting any kind of information

 

Nonetheless.. for Islam women to fight for their right is significant.. I agree with cok gec explanation.. It is different between women norms and womens status of equality.. In order to improve, women can get same equality with men do but still have to ensure that Islam regulation is always in practice.  What is Jihad for when Islam is being forgotten? 

 

As mortaza said

Infact If we want to create equality with woman, we should to protect them. They have not enough force (as a whole) to live alone. Our first priority should to increase their education and protect them, until they can stand alone.>>

Here I cited Firman Allah in English version:

"Men are the protectors (Qawamoon) of women, because God has given preference to some over others. And because men spend of their property on women. So good women are obedient, guarding even unnoticed that what Allah (God) has asked them to guard. As for those from whom you fear rebellion in this (i.e. guarding their chastity in your absence), i) talk to them, ii) leave them alone in their beds, iii) strike them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them.. (Koran 4:34)."

 

Source : http://www.e-bacaan.com/artikeli_women.htm>>

 

*Correct me if I am wrong for the citation

 

Basically that is wht suppose to be practiced by all muslim. Unfortunately, most of the Islam countries do not implement the regulation correctly where by they (Men) use their position for their advantages.. such as polygamy issues.. Abusing (Mental and Physical) and etc Luckily, in my country dont have tht too serious problem.. We have opportunity to study, to work, to decide, to vote, to be independent and to involve in politic but the polygamy thing everywhere is the same huh?!

 

The shaking hand thing... as Super Goat already clarified... it is due to Islam regulation.. woman cant touch any man who is non immediate family members (Any man tht she can be married).. Even i do not 'salam' (hand shaking in Malay tradition) for Eid or any occcasion whether with my bro in law or my male cousins... still i dont feel tht i am inferior...  i'm cool..

 

-just a thought-



Edited by cahaya
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 16:37

Originally posted by cahaya

It is different between women norms and womens status of equality..

Finally we have a lady voice here

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 18:13
As for those from whom you fear rebellion in this (i.e. guarding their chastity in your absence), i) talk to them, ii) leave them alone in their beds, iii) strike them.


This is ilegal in many countries. In Spain an imam went to jail for writing a book making apology of gender violence in this sense.

From our western humanist viewpoint such a subrodination of the female to the male, not to mention explicit violence (which exists but has a strong social rejection) is unthinkable: absolutely out of the moral or ethical possibilities. Women and men are, as the International Declaration of Human Rights states equal in rights. That means that no man can have authority over any adult woman, unless inside other structures (such as state or bussiness).

I recall reading an interview with an Afro-Dutch woman (Ayan Hirsi Ali), that is a former Muslim and now is a polemic member of Dutch parlament, with strong anti-Islamic message on the grounds that Islam is mysoginic and machoist to a point that can't be blended with Western humanistic values nor rights of women. More info on her strong criticism of Islam (and  reactions) in the following links:
So far most of the exchanges I have got with Muslims on this issue have ended in lack of possible agreement. For most Muslims it seems that the dichotomy male/female and the domninating role of the male is essential in their religious and social thought and of course the Quran abounds in sentences that can be read in that sense. And, when you come to holy texts, any discussion is vain.

I started this topic because I know that diferent Islamic schools have diferent doctrines and also because I think it's very interesing for Muslims (and non-Muslims) to discuss it (and also because I happened to see the article). Yet I am under the impression that the issue is dificult to adress. Some see it as dangerous westernization (without maybe noticing that West also needed a harsh and long struggle to get women to be entitled to all human rights and due respect) others may feel doubtful on how to adress it without being blasphemous or irrespectful with religion (something that in most of the West is not anymore a major problem, thanks to secularization).

For me, as Westerner and compromised with gender equality, the biggest problem comes with globalization: the interaction with other peoples, many of them Muslim is every day more intense. I am right now talking with you via the Internet but dozens of Muslim families live in my street, while thousands live in my city. I've even shared apartment with a Moroccan guy twice (he wasn't very religious anyhow). Some of the women wear veil (what always strike me, specially when they are young), others don't. Some of the men (most) are rather machoist, others are more open minded. When I see the few bearded ones, I can't but think in Talibans (they are probably just religious men of the nearby mosque but you know...).

But of all the sociological diferences between Islam and Western humanism the most dificult to deal for us is the "strange" and very "backwards" treatment of women. Not that you can't find some of that among locals but it's never a majoritary current and it is receeding every day.

I have never yet got in the situation of watching a man beating a woman but I know such things happen, not just among Muslims. Obviously, I would beat the man without a second thought, no matter if he's the father, the husband or whatever. The only comparative situation I've found in my life was when my uncle attempted to hit my aunt-in-law in my grandparents' home. I told him clearly that no way and he finally stepped back and went out for a drink (he's a pitiful man).

Anyhow, one thing is clear, for me such a machoist behaviour is not tolerable. It may happen but it must be prosecuted with all the strength that society has. Violence against women (or against any relatively unprotected person or group) can't be accepted, not a lash not a killing: it's all the same.

Well, enough. I just wanted to express the cultural shock that some of us may suffer when we read things like that quoted above. For me and most Westerners it is just unnacceptable.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 19:08


Maju stated:

I have never yet got in the situation of watching a man beating a woman but I know such things happen, not just among Muslims. Obviously, I would beat the man without a second thought, no matter if he's the father, the husband or whatever. The only comparative situation I've found in my life was when my uncle attempted to hit my aunt-in-law in my grandparents' home. I told him clearly that no way and he finally stepped back and went out for a drink (he's a pitiful man).

Well maju... nobody would accept an idea tht it is ok to beat a woman.. for no reason.. not only a woman even among people.. either male or female..

Maybe the citation need more clearence and explanation which my knowledge in interpreting the surah is not very good. Afraid tht might give wrong meaning.. perhaps other members can assist on this matter.. The word 'strike' there is giving a question mark..

But for sure, Islam rule and guideline is not leading to violence.. dont misunderstand that...

p/s: cok gec... need ur assistance here..

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  Quote Super Goat (^_^) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 21:06
well the man cant simply beet the women theres a process involed as it says in the verse

in the english quran i have it says this:

"..as to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful); ..."

if couples or such follow this process, ie talking about their problems and the next step....then the beating stage would not be reached, or at least harder to be reached (in theory). but as in many other things, people do not follow the teachings, and just jump to beatings,

also have to keep in mind, men dont beat their wives because of that verses in the quran...its more social than religious

Edited by Super Goat (^_^)
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