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Only a Turk Can Answer This!!

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Only a Turk Can Answer This!!
    Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 00:37

WARNING: PLEASE DO NOT HIJACK THIS THREAD! This thread is NOT for  nationalist accusations, current governments' criticism, and neither for criticizing Atatrk or his decisions. It is purely an attempt to discuss the pros and cons of a specific policy and decision. So Focus on the issue itself, not the decision maker.

Hi dstlar, I always thought about this delimma but I never found a satisfying answer. Here is my delimma:

"Why did Turks change their alphabets from Arabic script to Latin script"??  It might sound redundant, but I really thought deep about all the following scenarios and answers:

1- Because the Latin script fits the Turkish sound system better, especially with multiple similar sounds, like U O A E.

Little ok Ge inside my brain is thinking: but the Latin Alphabets that were adopted were modified too to fit the Turkish sound system. Why can you have two latin O's but not two Arabic form of و's?  Why you can invent letters like the Yumuak ge ( ) but not in Arabic script? Afterall, Persian, Kurdish, Pashtun, and Urdu have modified the Arabic script to fit their sound system and it works perfect for them. Aslo the Ottomans used it for hundreds of years and it was not a constraint on their ability to talk, write, and communicate. In fact, Turkish intered the vocabulary list of many neighboring nations during that time.

2- Because changing the alphabets to Latin will make it easier to transfer western knowledge into Turkish and will be easy to acquire those western knowledge and comprehend them to average Turks.

Little ok Ge thinking: What are those transferred knowledge? Math? physics? chemistry? do you really think a translation will fail teaching these knoweldges in any language? They teach Physics in Japanese to Japanese, Biology in Korean to koreans, it didn't discredit the worthiness of that knoweledge. Maybe you mean for literature? well still, even if you adopt similar alphabets, still it does not make you read them better. They all will look to you as an Alien literature as long as you don't know the language itself, regardless of what alphabets you use.

3- That time when Seljuks and Ottomans rose up, Arabic script was commonly used and most science and literature works were in Persian or Arabic. Now it is all in Latin Alphabets and thus, an adoption is needed to catch up with civilization.

Little ok Ge thinking: So, today in Latin Alphabets, after 500 years say India will be the superpower and all science researches, literature works, and movies will be in Indian, shall we change the alphabets again to Hindi?

4- Turkey changed the alphabets to Latin because they want to distance themselves from anything that is Osmanli, Arabic, and Islam.

Little ok Ge thinking: I don't think this reasoning is famous in Turkey.

Then what is the answer?

Little ok Ge thinking: Hmm, it is their language, they can do whatever they like. No one business.

So no reason for that change of alphabets?

Little ok Ge thinking: Geez! Ask a Turk. Only a Turk can answer this!

 



Edited by ok ge
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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 04:33

I can read in both scripts, though I can read much better in Latin script.

1. This was a political choice in order to get closer with the western world.

2. Arabic script was used for a very long time before the republican era, but the literacy rate was %5-6 in 1914. It was mostly used by the elite. The usage of the Arabic script is very detailed and the wrong usage was ridiculed. In the Arabic script, the words cannot be read as it is written you have to memorize the writing of the word. However in the Latin script, Turkish is read as it is written. Of course the Arabic script could be modified but there was a big reaction against any change in the traditional script.

3. Another difficulty was that Arabic letters are connected to each other and have different shapes at the beginnin, in the middle and at the end of the word. Also, in the traditional version, most of the vowels aren't written so there's the possibility of 8 vowels for each interval. Of course the Arabic script could be modified but و was used instead of o, , u,

  ا  was used instead of a and e; and ى was used instead of ý and i.

Also  او was used instead of o, , u, , av, ev at the beginning of the word

and اى was used instead of ay, ey, ý, i at the beginning of the word

Changing this traditional usage could also create problems.

4. The elit language was the Ottoman language dominated by Arabic and Persian words but the popular language was Turkish and this was the reason that literacy was confined to the elits.

5. You know that Arabic script include a lot of dots and hareke signs and if this script would be modified to Turkish (there were already modified consonants in the alphabet like چandژ ) there would be many detailed signs,too. A lot of dots, extra signs, etc... However, there was a campaign for the objective of increasing the literacy rate very fastly. So, the Latin script that has rare details was preferred.

But, in the final analysis the main reason was to be integrated with the western world....

 



Edited by kotumeyil
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 07:29

Dont forget that the literacy percentage was %5 in Anatolia. BTW, Uighur alphabet was still popular through the Turkmens of Anatolia until 16. century...

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 08:42
Originally posted by ok ge

Little ok Ge thinking: Hmm, it is their language, they can do whatever they like. No one business.

I agree with Little ok Ge.
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 09:21

Originally posted by Bar

Originally posted by ok ge

Little ok Ge thinking: Hmm, it is their language, they can do whatever they like. No one business.

I agree with Little ok Ge.

Continue guys, Im really learning a lot.

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  Quote Jhangora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 09:22
Originally posted by ?k ge?

WARNING: PLEASE DO NOT HIJACK THIS THREAD! This thread is NOT for  nationalist accusations, current governments' criticism, and neither for criticizing Atat?k or his decisions. It is purely an attempt to discuss the pros and cons of a specific policy and decision. So Focus on the issue itself, not the decision maker.

Hi d?tlar, I always thought about this delimma but I never found a satisfying answer. Here is my delimma:

Why did Turks change their alphabets from Arabic script to Latin script??  It might sound redundant, but I really thought deep about all the following scenarios and answers:

1- Because the Latin script fits the Turkish sound system better, especially with multiple similar sounds, like ?U ?O A E.

Little ?k Ge?inside my brain is thinking: but the Latin Alphabets that were adopted were modified too to fit the Turkish sound system. Why can you have two latin O's but not two Arabic form of 's?  Why you can invent letters like the Yumu?k ge (?) but not in Arabic script? Afterall, Persian, Kurdish, Pashtun, and Urdu have modified the Arabic script to fit their sound system and it works perfect for them. Aslo the Ottomans used it for hundreds of years and it was not a constraint on their ability to talk, write, and communicate. In fact, Turkish intered the vocabulary list of many neighboring nations during that time.

2- Because changing the alphabets to Latin will make it easier to transfer western knowledge into Turkish and will be easy to acquire those western knowledge and comprehend them to average Turks.

Little ?k Ge?thinking: What are those transferred knowledge? Math? physics? chemistry? do you really think a translation will fail teaching these knoweldges in any language? They teach Physics in Japanese to Japanese, Biology in Korean to koreans, it didn't discredit the worthiness of that knoweledge. Maybe you mean for literature? well still, even if you adopt similar alphabets, still it does not make you read them better. They all will look to you as an Alien literature as long as you don't know the language itself, regardless of what alphabets you use.

3- That time when Seljuks and Ottomans rose up, Arabic script was commonly used and most science and literature works were in Persian or Arabic. Now it is all in Latin Alphabets and thus, an adoption is needed to catch up with civilization.

Little ?k Ge?thinking: So, today in Latin Alphabets, after 500 years say India will be the superpower and all science researches, literature works, and movies will be in Indian, shall we change the alphabets again to Hindi?

4- Turkey changed the alphabets to Latin because they want to distance themselves from anything that is Osmanli, Arabic, and Islam.

Little ?k Ge?thinking: I don't think this reasoning is famous in Turkey.

Then what is the answer?

Little ?k Ge?thinking: Hmm, it is their language, they can do whatever they like. No one business.

So no reason for that change of alphabets?

Little ?k Ge?thinking: Geez! Ask a Turk. Only a Turk can answer this!

 

[/QUOTE

?k ge ?......I agree with kotumeyil that the main reason for changing the alphabet was integration with the western world.......

I'm sorry I answered enough though I am not a Turk.I would like to ask u a question though why did u raise a question regarding Turks enough though u r not a Turk {atleast not a 100% one}.

Knowledge has no frontiers my brother don't try to cage it.

?k ge ?......I agree with kotumeyil that the main reason for changing the alphabet was integration with the western world.......

I'm sorry I answered enough though I am not a Turk.I would like to ask u a question though why did u raise a question regarding Turks enough though u r not a Turk {atleast not a 100% one}.

Knowledge has no frontiers my brother don't try to cage it.

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 09:53

sure they can do what they like with their language dont think any would argue that, Note by "they" i mean the majority of the Turkish citizens

the litracy rate and the other statistics aren't proven anything, as i always say there aren't any alphabet which can be considered Hard to learn for Humans and my best example will be Japanese Alphabets who are also learning Chinese and English alphabets at school.

by putting this useless statics you are simply saying that Turks are Dumb and cannot learn fast.

which is not true, at those days the letracy rate in the UK was huge and was even bigger in the rest of the world  NOTHING to do with Alphabet writing style.

anyway i think kotumeyil as always gives the most logical reasons about certain issues concerning Turkish last Century's reforms gave us the best conclusion which  is "in the final analysis the main reason was to be integrated with the western world"

 

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 10:28

I also agree that the main fixture was towards the west. So the next question should be, why?

If we study the Nationalists at the time of the revolution (civil war/war of inedpendence) we could get a picture of their intentions. We have been priviledged to hear about the military aspects of the revolution previously discussed in AE. Now we are discussing one particular reform from this same revolution.

The question is, Why the West?

The West was an ideal for science, philosophy, and industrialization. The later Ottomans and early Nationalists used their autocratic power to move their sphere of influence closer to western values. The 'flock' of people tend to either learn about reforms and practice them when available or tend to stay conservative and not deviate from the safe and sound world of tradition. The reformists wanted a rational mentality to judge progress and the traditionalists denounced such growth and influence as a sign of copying western ways. Hence, society was seen as alienating themselves from their ancestors.

The impedus from the reformists camp of the Nationalists eventually created a situation where language would partake in westernization (modernization). The thrust of this movement centered around the desire to create faster participation into modern society. The reformers all remembered a time where stagnation and weakness toppled a dynasty that invited enemies at the gates. Part of the collateral damage was the on the shoulders of the traditionalists. The 'East' was a sign of the past. The conservative strings attached were seen as shackles that inhibited the growth of the people. 'Things western' may have been given too much credit by the leaders at that time, but the reformation was already in action. It did not totally succeed. We still have the same reformist (liberal) versus traditionalist (conservatives) debates continuing.



Edited by Seko
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 12:25
Originally posted by katulakatula

I'm sorry I answered enough though I am not a Turk.I would like to ask u a question though why did u raise a question regarding Turks enough though u r not a Turk {atleast not a 100% one}.

Knowledge has no frontiers my brother don't try to cage it.

Katulakatula, Im 100% non-Turk. Just to clarify, the title of this thread "Only a Turk can answer this!!" didn't mean only Turks can post here, I meant that they know their business and they might have the only answer that satisfy my question.

But everybody is welcomed to post here in contribution.

 

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 13:05

It did not totally succeed. We still have the same reformist (liberal) versus traditionalist (conservatives) debates continuing.

And will continue forever. I think Ataturk followed others, and Their biggest mistake was, They think to gain European force, we should become European.(This idea didnt changed much)

So we destroyed our culture.

 

 

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 14:11

The culture evolved. In Turkey, those who want to live like Ottomans are free to do so just under eyes of the republic. As western virtues were ambitiously desired by the republic,  the desire to turn the west into a religious domain came from the Ottomans. I think Turkish culture, in general, continues on by the language, history, cuisine, sports, religion (though in a less government influenced form), and numerous other reasons why culture tends to exist.



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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 14:35

The culture evolved.

It should be, but we cant say Ataturk revolution is an evolving. It banned and forced ottoman culture to diminish.

I am not saying we should live like ottomans, It should be another forced changing.

But we need a soft changing, It is already becoming, but need some govermental support.

All of our culture changed.

language, we know It is changed, our grandfather and us use different words, and alphabet changed. So we cannot say our langauge is same with ottomans.

history, Changed too. Infact half of our history is propoganda.

sports, changed, yes there is still yagl pnar but It is a rare event.

culture absolutely changed. Religion It is somewhat changed too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 14:46

I hear your concerns Mortaza.

It seems as though we are aware that culture is a fluid and precious entity. No matter what the change and why or where it came from. It will continue to grow and evolve. We can miss with longing for a past that we ourselves have glorified or we can succeed in the present and in the future by actively sharing views and fostering mutual and diverse understanding.

I sense your aversion to propaganda. Me too.

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 14:54

No I am not saying we should return our glorified past, It was not much beauty, but we should built our link with our past. We need to cut it for Ataturk time, but now we should built it again. Specialy cultural link should be built. I dont want to be only a muslim European, we were ottomans, and now we are turk. What make us Turk is, our past, ottomans.

 

 

 



Edited by Mortaza
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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 15:37
This link can be built by serious academic studies. There are some good studies on Ottoman language. Tarih Vakf (The Association of History) provides Ottoman script and language courses as well as other useful studies. I think you are in Ankara Mortaza and if you attend these courses I'm sure you'll get much knowledge and documents...
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 16:02

Something related to the subject, from today's radikal newspaper (in Turkish):

http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=168292

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 16:05

Well I cannot stay ankara much because of  my job should change city almost every 2 month.

Anyway, what I mean is not only langauge(Infact It was lost) but mostly culture. For exp, At ramadan, we are doing some activity related with ottomans.

We should improve it.This activities should not be made only ramadan.

Orta Oyunu, Karagz, hat, ebru or other things. At least we should know, what our ancestor did for the name of art.

They didnt made pictures or status, but They interested with different arts. We just buried them with ottomans.

 

 

 

 

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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 16:06
 

The real question maybe why would Arabs care if Turks use Arabic or Latin script. If you can answer that question I bet you may get some answers to your original question

 

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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 16:18
Not really. Looking into if Arabs care about it or not does not answer anything. Even if Arabs cut themsleves into pieces, it won't make any difference. The decision was internal in Turkey and they have their internal reasons for it.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 17:12

by putting this useless statics you are simply saying that Turks are Dumb and cannot learn fast.

Well, not Turks of Anatolia though, they were just ignored and kept uneducated, but maybe Ottomans were some sort of dumb. They were using the alphabet of one of their subjects. And it wasnt even fitting our language, so Ottomans decided to make our language fit into that subject's alphabet!

So we destroyed our culture.

We didnt. In fact we recreated it with Ataturk. Arabization did destroy it. Just like it did to the Persians, Sogdians or Libyans. Similar to what Greeks did to Romans, or the Byzanthine Empire did to Anatolians. Assimilation. But thanks God, noone could totally assimilate us...

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