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Chronology of Central Asian History

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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Chronology of Central Asian History
    Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 02:31
Now I'm not striking up the conversation again.This topic's closed. It was just a reply. Forget about it. Thanks.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 17:06

Add to your long list most remarkable victory of Oirad Mongols by Oirad Mongols khan Esen

In 1449 The Mongol victory was won by an advance guard of only 20,000 cavalry over Ming Chinese force of 250000. The emperor  Zhengtong Emperor was captured on September 1, 1449 , and on September 3 was sent to Esen's main camp near Xianfu. 

Remarkable or unbelievable beat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhengtong_Emperor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumu_Crisis

 



Edited by Zorigo
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  Quote Qin Dynasty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2006 at 14:06
Originally posted by Zorigo

Add to your long list most remarkable victory of Oirad Mongols by Oirad Mongols khan Esen

In 1449 The Mongol victory was won by an advance guard of only 20,000 cavalry over Ming Chinese force of 250000. The emperor  Zhengtong Emperor was captured on September 1, 1449 , and on September 3 was sent to Esen's main camp near Xianfu. 

Remarkable or unbelievable beat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhengtong_Emperor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumu_Crisis

 

 
 
I think u highly exaggrated the numbers of both troops, and the failure of Ming troops was nothing to do with the strength of Mongols. The 21years old emperor was misleaded by his favored eunuch who, in order to show off, wanted the emperor to pay a visit to his house where was bordering the fronter. Regardless the strong resistence of generals.(just check where Tumu is, u will know it well) That left the chance for Mongols. And the Mongols grasped the chance and surrenderred the Ming troops for several days, do u  buy it that 20,000 had the ability to surrender 250,000 Ming troops?
 
The consequence of this event is also not what u expected, as new emperor took the throne and domestic situation went ease, the Mongols blackmailed nothing from China side. This annoyed the Mongols ,resulting  a second invasion which they  recieved a totally defeat.  Khan Esen's brother was killed in that battle. Khan Esen himself narrawly escaped and his troops almost annihilated. The captured emperor returned home after Mongol fled north and asked negociation with China.
 
If u want talk something ' remarkable' at that era,  instead of what u posted, which I think is tiny in significance, the five great expeditions of Ming troops against Mongols would make sense, under which the Mongols were not only swept off from China, but also droven to the north of Gobi desert and split into two. Though they thought the vast Gobi desert could be protective screen for their survival and duck behind it with harshing China border time to time, they were wrong again, they never posed a serious threat to China since then and after recieved consistent beat, they finally subdued to Ming dynasty.


Edited by Qin Dynasty - 16-May-2006 at 14:13
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 01:41
So the 250,000 ming soldiers surrendered or were killed?>
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 02:04
Neither, simply disbanded or lay mutilated and resting in the streets of Peking.  Esen Khan could not absorb 250,000, and it was impossible for 250,000 to get killed at once.  Like all defeats of big armies, the bigger army simply disbands or retreats.  Btw, the official number of the Ming army at Tumu is 500,000.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 14:09
from what i've read the Ming army simply disintegrated because they ran into serious logistical problems (water shortage) which seems logical considdering the huge number of Ming troops. those who did not surrender to the Oirats were cut down, obviously those were not many of course only 20,000 Oirats can not defeat that many troops on a tactical level...
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  Quote yan. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 08:08
Originally posted by Qin Dynasty

  
 
I think u highly exaggrated the numbers of both troops, and the failure of Ming troops was nothing to do with the strength of Mongols. The 21years old emperor was misleaded by his favored eunuch who, in order to show off, wanted the emperor to pay a visit to his house where was bordering the fronter. Regardless the strong resistence of generals.(just check where Tumu is, u will know it well) That left the chance for Mongols. And the Mongols grasped the chance and surrenderred the Ming troops for several days, do u  buy it that 20,000 had the ability to surrender 250,000 Ming troops?
 
The consequence of this event is also not what u expected, as new emperor took the throne and domestic situation went ease, the Mongols blackmailed nothing from China side. This annoyed the Mongols ,resulting  a second invasion which they  recieved a totally defeat.  Khan Esen's brother was killed in that battle. Khan Esen himself narrawly escaped and his troops almost annihilated. The captured emperor returned home after Mongol fled north and asked negociation with China.
 
If u want talk something ' remarkable' at that era,  instead of what u posted, which I think is tiny in significance, the five great expeditions of Ming troops against Mongols would make sense, under which the Mongols were not only swept off from China, but also droven to the north of Gobi desert and split into two. Though they thought the vast Gobi desert could be protective screen for their survival and duck behind it with harshing China border time to time, they were wrong again, they never posed a serious threat to China since then and after recieved consistent beat, they finally subdued to Ming dynasty.
 
Did those Five expeditions take place before or after the re-erection of the Great Wall? Thank you.


Edited by yan. - 12-Jul-2006 at 08:09
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  Quote Savdogar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 08:09
Karimov is not idiot, he is very clever. He is just evil.
 
Turkmenbashi, well, turkmen TV shows only him if I am not mistaken.
 
He cultivated Rukhname as that  was "Quran" for Turkmens.
 
I have read it, nothing stupid was published before. He thinks he is one of 3 greatest leaders of world. even he claims to be "prophet".
 
Thanks to Allah, that we haven't seen such stupid like Turkmenbashi.
...i dont need this...
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  Quote Hulegu Han Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 15:01
Originally posted by Qin Dynasty

I think u highly exaggrated the numbers of both troops, and the failure of Ming troops was nothing to do with the strength of Mongols. The 21years old emperor was misleaded by his favored eunuch who, in order to show off, wanted the emperor to pay a visit to his house where was bordering the fronter. Regardless the strong resistence of generals.(just check where Tumu is, u will know it well) That left the chance for Mongols. And the Mongols grasped the chance and surrenderred the Ming troops for several days, do u  buy it that 20,000 had the ability to surrender 250,000 Ming troops?
The consequence of this event is also not what u expected, as new emperor took the throne and domestic situation went ease, the Mongols blackmailed nothing from China side. This annoyed the Mongols ,resulting  a second invasion which they  recieved a totally defeat.  Khan Esen's brother was killed in that battle. Khan Esen himself narrawly escaped and his troops almost annihilated. The captured emperor returned home after Mongol fled north and asked negociation with China.
 
If u want talk something ' remarkable' at that era,  instead of what u posted, which I think is tiny in significance, the five great expeditions of Ming troops against Mongols would make sense, under which the Mongols were not only swept off from China, but also droven to the north of Gobi desert and split into two. Though they thought the vast Gobi desert could be protective screen for their survival and duck behind it with harshing China border time to time, they were wrong again, they never posed a serious threat to China since then and after recieved consistent beat, they finally subdued to Ming dynasty.
Iwant you to give more information about the five great expeditions of Ming troops against Mongols? As far as I know it's not 5, 4 instead.
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2007 at 10:07
Originally posted by kotumeyil

I found the chronology from the following links:

http://www.oxuscom.com/cahist1.htm

http://www.oxuscom.com/cahist2.htm

I'm not sure if the dates or events are correct but they might be helpful for any researh on the related subjects...


c. 370
The Huns invade Europe from the Central Asian steppe.

440
The Hephthalites (White Huns, later known in the West as the Avars) move south from the Altai region to occupy Transoxiana, Bactria, Khurasan, and eastern Persia.

c. 460
The Hephthalites conquer the Kushans and invade India.

552
The Turks destroy the Juan-juan Empire and establish the Turkic Khaganate, nominally divided into Western and Eastern Khanates.

553-68
The Turks and Sassanians ally to destroy the Hephthalite Empire.

late 6th cent.
The Hephthalites move west to the Russian steppe to form the Avar Khanate.



This is just plain wrong, the Avars did not even begin to move south before the 500s. Shocked

Originally posted by Seko

A long and intensive list of steppe dates. Kind of gives us quick access to various timelines. I always wondered about these guys - The Hephthalites (White Huns). Seems that they are listed as Avars here.


Seems like there are a few discrepencies here, and no sources listed by the author. Strange. Confused

Originally posted by Seko

Back then Mongolia proper was not as it would be 500 years later. Many Turk tribes of various distinctions would later move on out. A few have remained. And with Mongolian written records not predating the time of Cengiz Han, it makes it more difficult to know who the Avars or, in this case, the Juan Juan were. Does anyone have info on the first documented usuage of Mongol peoples or language?


Written records of the Chinese, and codified versions of the Orghuz Dastans. Approve
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2008 at 17:34
The Hephtalites were subjects of the Avars, not the Avars themselves.
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  Quote Basmachi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 01:50
Originally posted by Afghanan

The Hephtalites were subjects of the Avars, not the Avars themselves.


Hephtalites can be subjects of Huns(Xiong-Nus). Some sources call the White Huns(Akhuns). But It's not a certain idea.
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