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the Balcan wars!!!!!!

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  Quote giani_82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: the Balcan wars!!!!!!
    Posted: 17-May-2005 at 13:06

Originally posted by Gorgi Makedonski

ppl are very friendly to visitors, NO METTER THE RELIGION OR NATION

Not if you are bulgarian.

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising everytime we fall."
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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2005 at 13:10
Originally posted by drgonzaga

I sometimes wonder what a true DNA test of the populations would reveal!

I wonder too....how can be a false DNA test , or a false mitH test... or how can we distinguish between a true test and a false one...

Tests , are suposed to produce results..... The results can be interpreted in a slightly different way....but the results ...are results...

For example .... test of mitH in a number of people from all Greece , showed only 11% influence of any Slavic DNA... How differently can anyone translate this result ??

Isk.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2005 at 21:16
Originally posted by iskenderani

I wonder....in 1905 a census made by the Turks , showed no Macedonian ethnic group...The same was for census made in 1878 and also in 1906...

Keeping in mind that the Turks were not so much in favor of Greeks , how come and u had ""hundreds of thousands of dead " ??

Imagination , is good , but it does not work in History... maybe in Historical Fiction....Historical Novels ..... Historic Romance and so on...

Unfortunately , we keep in History here..

Isk.

no, with those words you "keep in" ASSIMILATION, GENOCID & EXODUS POLITICS!

i hope you made it just because many facts are not known to you, couse if you made it with purpose to insult the Macedonians, it is very bad thing...(but we got used on greek nationalists lies ;o)

Who are the people who are presing charges against the Republic of Greece @ the european Courts? are they imagination??? or it is new to you that people are Accusing Greece of braking Human rights???

i think u know very good about that...

some of My ancestors were living in the period you mentioned IN Solun (Thesaloniki), Lerin (Florina) & etc... or WE TOOKED SOME LSD SO WE JUST think we had ancestors, we actualy ALL IMAGINATION?

How come half of my grandfathers land is today in Republic of Macedonia, & the other half in Greece?

dont you SHAME yourself? dont you think you (meaning greek people who think they know better about us then we self) told enough lies?

Do we have to argue? you want history? here is some...

"only" From1948 over 200.000 Macedonians (modest numbers, some analyst talk about 1.000.000) were victims of:

- Protection of Northern Greece (I'VE)

- the Pan-Greek Liberation Organization (PAO)

- other right "civilian" "patriotic" grupations & their military wings (paramilitary formations)

- more 40 000 children (again, modest numbers...) exiled from their homes between 48  and 74...

You know that most of the "Decata Begalci" (macedonian expresion for the refugee children) are still alive? They can remember all the crimes, their parents were shot or jailed.

do i have to come with more history?

first let those "children" to have the possibility TO ENTER GREECE, there where they were born, to see at least one more time their fathers houses before they die...

or you afraid of a group of OLD people, so thats why greece si REFUSING TO LET THOSE PEOPLE IN GREECE EVEN WITH ANY EUROPEAN OR AMERICAN OR AUSTRALIAN PASPORT!!!

did i made this up? sure not, you want evidence, i can give you so much you want...

if you didnt noticed, the Macedonians are prepared to live with you in Peace

i am prepared to deny any right of my granpas fields (concidering those in Greece), i dun need them...

but dun tell me there are "no Macedonians", or some census "showed" ...

Read the Peace Threaty of Sevr - France , 10 avgust 1920

It  says the Greek Government HAD TO GIVE MORE RIGHTS TO THE MINORITIES, MACEDONIANS INCLUDED!

they even pressed BUKVAR, meaning school book, a kind of grammar, on Macedonian Language, writen with Croatian Latin Letters.

The language spoken in the "Bitolsko-Lerinsko" region, the Central Macedonian Dialekt (Bitola is today in RM, Lerin in RG) , was the Language on which this Grammar was writen.

search in greek newspapers archives SO MUCH YOU LIKE, 10 avgust 1920 & the days that followed ;o)

Do i have to dig thrue regulations & normatives from that time, to show you how big procentage from the population HAD to be Macedonian so the Greek Government was printing the schoolbooks?

can you follow me, m8?

if they were few, no grammar needed, & it would be on albanian, serbian or blgarian language, NOT on MACEDONIAN!

So if here History, than let keep it history, & not romantic stories.

I have first hand (survivors) testimonies, my grandfather tooked part in both balkan & both world wars.

All his brothers also, & 3 or 4 of them didnt survived those wars.

The other granpa tooked part "only" if the world wars.

Several my ancestors were fighters in "ELLAS" (greek antifasist movement)

Few of them later "exiled" from their own homes.

I am born in Heraklea, the city grounded from Filip 2 (few hundert metters from its amfitheater, so HOW CAN some1 who had never been in Macedonia know more about Macedonia & Macedonians?

You think you can read from some romantic nationalistic books & just insult people???

& call it "history"?

mhm...



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2005 at 21:20
Originally posted by giani_82

Originally posted by Gorgi Makedonski

ppl are very friendly to visitors, NO METTER THE RELIGION OR NATION

Not if you are bulgarian.

its a serious accusation, what you give here... i have totaly different opinion...

welcome this summer in Ohrid, with the THOUSANDS OTHER BULGARIANS visiting Macedonia every summer ;o)

If few of them were victims of street crime, it could easy happen in Majorca or Ibiza or on Kreta.

But EVERYONE is welcomed, till he dont start to "explain" to the people where "their fathers fields are"

i think they know very good...

so much for now...



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2005 at 21:23

regarding the DNA tests / studies...

2 of them showed that Macedonians have more mediteranian in self than the greeks, who are with (sub) saharian-indo-asian origin...

3 of them showed that the Macedonians have not so much "slavic" genetic specifications as believed, one (Arnaiz - Villena) actualy CLAIMS that WE are more connected with the Creta people than with the slavs

any more prooves needed? any more tests? ok, i give my blood for the next, i wanna see if Aleks was my grandpa, maybe ill get the Macedonian Crown one day  

i already wrote, there are only FEW (& i mean few!) lunatics who have dreams for "big macedonia"

most of us are LIVING the EUROPEAN reality, & do i have to remind you that we dont have WISH, the economic & military power to Conquer Greece or any other land

so, why you keep on insulting & attacking us...

do we have to call you "djipsie-greeks" ???

or "afro-greeks" ?

or your state "Former Republic of Greece - Athen full of niggaz"?

can you get my point, my friend?

so more respect & tolerance, pls, to eachother & to the MANKIND, not to the Macedonians only...



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2005 at 21:27

p.s.

like we all good know, it would all be europe 1 day(meaning balkan), it is just a question of time...

only, the "joke" is what feelings well have, & what stories WE will tell to our children...

i dont want to tell my children how mean people our neighbours are...

i dont want to teach my children on hatered, or tell them stories about wars & genocides...

you?

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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 05:22
Originally posted by Serdarot

no, with those words you "keep in" ASSIMILATION, GENOCID & EXODUS POLITICS!

Sorry...this is ur conclusion and i do not agree with it.

i hope you made it just because many facts are not known to you, couse if you made it with purpose to insult the Macedonians, it is very bad thing...(but we got used on greek nationalists lies ;o)

I do not want to insult any Makedonskies , and i cant do it ...simply because the race of Macedonians do not exist any more..

Who are the people who are presing charges against the Republic of Greece @ the european Courts? are they imagination??? or it is new to you that people are Accusing Greece of braking Human rights???

There is no breaking of Human rights in Greece..There was a stupid policy towards the Greek citizens of islamic faith , but this is changing fast.. If u want any proof ...u r wellcome to investigate urself..

i think u know very good about that...No...i dont.

some of My ancestors were living in the period you mentioned IN Solun (Thesaloniki), Lerin (Florina) & etc... or WE TOOKED SOME LSD SO WE JUST think we had ancestors, we actualy ALL IMAGINATION?

To prove to you ur inadequasy in History , i have to inform u that the the name "Solun", simply does not exist , except in the minds of people who know nothing about History... The city that was built in Thermaikos bay , was named THESSALONIKH which was the name of a sister of Alexander the Great..Thessaloniki is 2 words Thessalon= the Thessalians and NIKI = Victory....the whole name means  Victory over the Thessalians.So please , spare me the Slavish , or better the Bulgarian renaming of Greek cities ...Just to prove that u have respect for History.

How come half of my grandfathers land is today in Republic of Macedonia, & the other half in Greece?dont you SHAME yourself? dont you think you (meaning greek people who think they know better about us then we self) told enough lies?

Simple .... because this is how the borders with Serbia were decided...and NO i do not shame myself ...There is absolutely NO reason... Nobody says any lies , except u .

Do we have to argue? you want history? here is some...

Yes...and while we talk about History , just explain how the Turkish censuses NEVER mention any Makedonskies..Will u do that for me ?? Or u will forget it conveniently ??

"only" From1948 over 200.000 Macedonians (modest numbers, some analyst talk about 1.000.000) were victims of:

They were named Makedonskies as Tito decided for his political reasons..

- Protection of Northern Greece (I'VE)- the Pan-Greek Liberation Organization (PAO) - other right "civilian" "patriotic" grupations & their military wings (paramilitary formations)

Well ...if u call "protection" the communist plan to form a separate country from Greek lands , Bulgarian lands and Serbian lands and call the The Confederation Of Soviet Balcan States , then we agree... But then , it was NOT protections , it was a plan to divide Greece and Thank God , it failed..

- more 40 000 children (again, modest numbers...) exiled from their homes between 48  and 74...

Numbers are NOT clear in this subject ... It is reported that about 60.000 children were abducted from the communists on their way out of Greece , but maybe this number is not accurate.

You know that most of the "Decata Begalci" (macedonian expresion for the refugee children) are still alive? They can remember all the crimes, their parents were shot or jailed.

I happen to have 2 friends , who escaped this kind of abduction...Communiste were NOT taking their own children ...they were taling children of "anti-communists" ... they were leaving their children well protected... And NO there were no executions of ANY families...This is the kind of propaganda they fed u ?? As i said before ...u r wellcome here to try and find any violations of Human Rights , or people that their families were shot , or whatever...Please spare me the propaganda stuff.

do i have to come with more history? Yes please...up to now i havent seen any History , just cheap propaganda..

first let those "children" to have the possibility TO ENTER GREECE, there where they were born, to see at least one more time their fathers houses before they die...

First they have to prove that they r Greeks , i guess...U just dont let anyone , entering the country just like that...Do u accept them as Greeks ?? Then they can apply for a Greek passport .... easy things ...for real Greeks..Most of them from other countries as Hungary , Romania , and others have already returned..My ex-wife's cousin and family have returned from Rumania , almost 20 years now..

or you afraid of a group of OLD people, so thats why greece si REFUSING TO LET THOSE PEOPLE IN GREECE EVEN WITH ANY EUROPEAN OR AMERICAN OR AUSTRALIAN PASPORT!!!

Afraid ?? Of what ?? Except maybe if they want to produce claims over properties lost before 60 years and create troubles...This is different..

did i made this up? sure not, you want evidence, i can give you so much you want...

I didn say u made it up...I know of these matters..

if you didnt noticed, the Macedonians are prepared to live with you in Peace

Who said anything different ??? Except that u keep on the propaganda on ur schools for an enslaved  Aegean Macedonia ...Is that what u mean by piece ??? Or the intension to install a statue of Alexander in one of Skopje's squares , while u have none whatsoever link with him ?? Please .... not so much peace...

i am prepared to deny any right of my granpas fields (concidering those in Greece), i dun need them...

This is of no concern of mine..

but dun tell me there are "no Macedonians", or some census "showed" ...

Can u prove the censuses wrong ??? Do it .... Otherwise i can only rely on facts , official facts , and not stories..

Read the Peace Threaty of Sevr - France , 10 avgust 1920

It  says the Greek Government HAD TO GIVE MORE RIGHTS TO THE MINORITIES, MACEDONIANS INCLUDED!

Will u please provide the link of the treaty and the article ??? i will be much obliged to read the prototype..

they even pressed BUKVAR, meaning school book, a kind of grammar, on Macedonian Language, writen with Croatian Latin Letters.

So ?? do u want me to pay someone to press a school book in Arabic , with latin letters ?? What will this prove ?? That Arabs were living here ??? Come on...be serious..

The language spoken in the "Bitolsko-Lerinsko" region, the Central Macedonian Dialekt (Bitola is today in RM, Lerin in RG) , was the Language on which this Grammar was writen.

I have already posted an excellent article of HOW ur language was created in 1944 , in some other topic ...It will be educative if u read it ..

search in greek newspapers archives SO MUCH YOU LIKE, 10 avgust 1920 & the days that followed ;o)

Do i have to dig thrue regulations & normatives from that time, to show you how big procentage from the population HAD to be Macedonian so the Greek Government was printing the schoolbooks?

I will tell u... ONE...just one person.But ....i will tell u a different story ...about Greeks that have been Bulgarised and had to have a grammar book , while they were slowly re-Hellenised...

can you follow me, m8?  I do... i wonder though IF u can follow me ..

if they were few, no grammar needed, & it would be on albanian, serbian or blgarian language, NOT on MACEDONIAN!So if here History, than let keep it history, & not romantic stories.

So u want to know about ur language... Ok ...i will grant u the favor in the next posting..without any comments..

I have first hand (survivors) testimonies, my grandfather tooked part in both balkan & both world wars.

In what uniform ???

All his brothers also, & 3 or 4 of them didnt survived those wars.

The other granpa tooked part "only" if the world wars.

Several my ancestors were fighters in "ELLAS" (greek antifasist movement)

Wrong....Greek Communist Movement...My late father who was a member of ELLAS too , suffered the results , when he denied communism ....he was snitched by ELLAS , to the Germans , and he barely escaped with his life... U see ELLAS was fighting the Greek anticommunists and NOT the Germans..

Few of them later "exiled" from their own homes.

I am born in Heraklea, the city grounded from Filip 2 (few hundert metters from its amfitheater, so HOW CAN some1 who had never been in Macedonia know more about Macedonia & Macedonians?

By reading a lot of books..

You think you can read from some romantic nationalistic books & just insult people???

Facts DO NOT insult....words do

& call it "history"?

mhm...

Isk.

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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 05:38

http://www.macedoniainfo.com/books/kronsteiner/ik_3_eng.html


THE MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE
 
The Macedonian Language was create in Yugoslavia in 1944 to divide Bulgarians from Bulgarians after 30 years unsuccessful Serbian assimilation attempt. The 'Berlin Wall' in the Balkan didn't succeed half a century. See the boundary of the Bulgarian nation - 

The Bulgarian Exarchate 1870  

Click on the image to see the map*
 

 


- recognized and respected by Turkey, Greece and Serbia till 1912, when Greece and Serbia  desired to expand territories of neighbors cost. "The Macedonians" voted overwhelmingly to join the Exarchate.

Please click on the link below to see the Sultan's Ferman:

 Sultans Ferman for the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate.

THE COLLAPSE OF YUGOSLAVIA AND THE FUTURE PROSPECTS OF THE MACEDONIAN LITERARY LANGUAGE
(A LATE CASE OF GLOSSOTOMY?)
 Otto Kronsteiner (Osterreich)
"The split of a language into two is something which the greatest fantasts in the world have not dared do. Our scholars, however, did it for political, rather than linguistic considerations." Leonida Lari, Rumanian writer from Moldova, (Literatura si arta am 18.8.1988)
There are quite a few European languages spoken outside their "own" country: for instance German in Germany, but also in Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxemburg,: Denmark, Belgium, Poland, Russia; Spanish in Spain, but also in Argentina, Chile, Bolivia etc. But nowhere a necessity has come to being, neither an attempt has been made to father a new (official) language (Austrian, Liechtensteinian, Argentinian, Chilien etc.) despite apparent differences emerging in the usage of the languages.
Many minority languages have never had their own state, others have had - though for a short time. Nevertheless, they have kept their integrity in the course of centuries, and have patiently waited for their recognition. This holds good of Ladinian, Basque, Sardian, Catalan and others. Quite to the contrary, there has never been a necessity for the creation of a spedal literary language to serve the Bulgarian-speaking Slavs residing outside Bulgaria (for example, in Vardar or Aegean Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Rumania, Ukraine). Similarly, there had never been a Macedonian linguistic community dreaming for centuries on end to be recognised for its linguistic uniqueness.

As late as the XX-th c. the method of linguistic partition (glossotomy) [1] would be repeatedly applied, motivated politically, rather than linguistically. In the West (as was the case of Slovenian Nindian) those attempts crashed and burned. In the East however, forcefully conceived languages under communism (socialism) (Rumanian/Moldovan [2]; Finnish/Karelian; Tatar/Bashkir; Turkish/Gagaouz) did survive to live a longer 'life' thanks to political coercion. Those who refused to accept language partition would be proclaimed nationalists and treated in the respective way. In politics, language partition was counted upon as a way to reinforce the new political borders, thus eliminating the feeling of one-time belonging to a certain community. [3] The strategies behind the fathering of such new languages in the communist regions would follow one and the same principles.

One scholar (or a handful united in a group) would publish an orthography, grammar, dictionary, bilingual dictionaries (but, note, never from the old to the new language, that is, never Rumanian- Moldovan, but Moldovan-Russian for example, or others). Shortly, they would publish a historical grammar, a history of the language, as well as a history of the new nation. Further, as "flank" initiatives, an Academy of Sciences, a National Theatre and a National Folk Ensemble would be established. In the meantime, a national literature was bound to shape up, and the first writer to venture in any genre, would be proclaimed a great playwright, novelist or Iyrist on the new language. [4] All that in its turn, called to life a literary history. The political accompaniment to the whole affair would be a most characteristic sentence in the communist countries: notably, that the (new) language was "a remarkable achievement serving the entire cultural complex". And, the direction to follow derived from the (unvoiced) formulation: "the worse the old language is treated, the better for the new one", that is, the worse Roumanian is being spoken/spelled, the better for Moldovan, which would be more correctly spoken/spelled. And, this entailed a deepening of the artificial gulf between the old and the new tongue (even by the use of force). All that holds good of the Macedonian literary language 

Date of creation: 1944

Place of creation: The Socialist Republic of Macedonia (within the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) - the "Prohor Pcinski" monastery.

Used by: some 1 000 000 Bulgarians (in Macedonia).

Oldest literary monument: "New Macedonia" newspaper.

Fabrications:
 

H. Lunt, A Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language, Skopje, 1952.

While T. Stamatoski (also Stamatov, Stamatovski) wrote back in 1986 on the struggle for Macedonian literary language, looking back and ahead in future at the same time (?) , Blaze Koneski had already (3 years before) told the "Communist" (1376, from July 29, 1983) the story of the endorsement and the introduction of this literary language .
A most ridiculous text is the historical phonology of the new language fathered in 1944 (B. Koneski, A Historical Phonology of the Macedonian Language, Heidelberg, 1983).

A major departure was effected, not only from the Bulgarian language, but also from its rich literary heritage, as well as from the world literature in translation. However, something had to be saved, and it was done by encroaching upon the miscellany of songs by the Miladinov brothers, born in Macedonia, and which had been originally entitled "Bulgarian Folk Songs", (1861) containing songs from Struga, Okhrida, Prilep, Kukus, Kostur and from other parts of Vardar and Aegean Macedonia. In 1962 it came out in Skopie under the forged title of "Miscellany", with a forged "Macedonian" text, and on top of everything else, labelled "the most outstanding work ever published, of the Macedonian literature.
 

On the name (glossonym) Macedonian
The adjective Macedonian (in Bulgarian: in Greek: , in Albanian: maqedonas) was out ot use as a glossonym prior to 1944. Until then, Macedonian used to be an adjective (designating the region (toponym) of Macedonia).[5] So-ever since 1944 it has scarcely been clear whether the toponym or the glossonym is actually meant under the word Macedonian, which caused a confusion of notions (deliberately provoked, too), that worked in favour of the reinforcement of the myths of the Macedonian nation. The impression was created as if this same language since time immemorial, has been the language of the "country" Macedonia. Alexander the Great was Macedonian. Cyril and Methodius were Macedonians, and Kemal Ataturk too, was Macedonian (a fact which is often suppressed). Neither of those however, had anything in common with the Macedonian literary language of Mr. Blaze Koneski (i.e. Blagoj Konev). And for the delusion to be complete, the textbooks in history and geography read: "In the Socialist Republic of Macedonia there live Macedonians, Albanians, Turks etc." This downright usurpation of ethnic names seems the right tool of forcible differentiation (compare: the French, Bretons, Basques - all of them nationals of France) etc., instead of the French French, the Breton French, the Basque French or (given the common territory of a nation), the French Bretons, the French Basques etc. It would be right to say: the Bulgarian Macedonians, the Albanian Macedonians, the Turkish Macedonians etc. (in this case, the residents of the republic of Macedonia), or, as it had been generally accepted to say by 1944 (e.g. Veigand) - the Macedonian Bulgarians, Macedonian Albanians, Macedonian Turks, etc. (given the common territory of a nation). And, since through the new Macedonian language, erstwhile Bulgarian ceased to exist officially (!), that is, it became a (strongly estranged) foreign language, the glossonym and the ethnonym Bulgarian disappeared too.
 
On the orthographyof the Macedonian literary language
Similarly to the case with Moldovan, when the Cyrillic script was introduced to distance it from Roumanian, the Macedonian glossotomists decided to adopt the Serbian alphabet (respectively, orthography) including letters having become more or less a myth , (instead of the Bulgarian ?, ??, as well as the Serbian , .) . The core of the Macedonian alphabet is actually lying in these two letters and their phonetic materialisation. Hence the joke: Macedonian is Bulgarian typed on a Serbian type-writer. Had the Bulgarian orthography been applied to the new language, everyone would take it for Bulgarian (despite the peripheral nature of the basic dialect chosen), just like the dialectally tinged texts by Ludwig Toma and Peter Poseger, which are taken for German ones.
 
On the dialectal basis of the Macedonian literary language
A very special trick of the Macedonian glossotomists was the choice of the peripheral dialectal area as the dialectal basis of the new language. It lies precisely on the Serbian-Bulgarian language boundary, hence, it represents a transitional dialect to Serbian. Another town could have been chosen instead of Skopie as capital (in the linguistic aspect too), such as Okhrida, but it would have made the difference with Bulgarian hardly discernable. The inner structure of the new language follows lexically and morphologically [6] the Serbian model enforced through the Belgrade Radio and TV, received everywhere. The new language served the rule: the more non-Bulgarian, the more Macedonian! The strengthening of the Serbian influence meant Macedonia's estrangement from Bulgaria politically and culturally as well [7] (something passed unnoticed by Europe). Bulgarian studies were not taught in Yugoslavia's universities, as they were replaced by Macedonian studies (and that, needless to say, held good of Skopje). Bulgarian was converted into an anti-language.
In the lingual-geographic aspect, the "Macedonian" dialects were declared all too unique, having nothing in common with Bulgarian. This explains why a Macedonian dialectal atlas was never released. Every dialectologist is well aware that there is no dialectical boundary to separate Bulgaria from Macedonia, and that intrinsic Macedonian peculiarities (such as the triple article,  instead of ?, etc.) are common in Bulgaria too. Hence, the whole thing smells of Stalin-styled misinformation which was successful in misleading even some representatives of "critical" Slavonic studies in the West. [8]

To be continued..

 

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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 05:43

Who was in need of linguistic partition (glossotomy)?
Since in all the cases (in the communist region) of linguistic partition the underlying strategy would be quite the same, the question arises whether it is also valid for the functioning of that mechanism. The method of 'splitting' would be applied not only to languages, but also to the history of nations, and to entire nations. And as in neither of those cases people's will had been consulted, it is thus far unclear where the central stage players had actually seen the sense, for themselves, their country and their policy. It is surprising that together with the states (The Soviet Union and Yugoslavia) the purpose would be lost behind these language partitions, given it was related to a centralized state policy. The latter would unite on the one hand, and divide, on the other. Within the framework of the Soviet Union, Ukraine and Byelorussia had to be russified, whereas, the Turkish- speaking peoples would be partitioned in the smallest possible portions. For its part, Yugoslavia had been pursuing a language and cultural assimilation with a Serbian emphasis (see: "Directive" by Garasanin). All this attests to the moral (!) integrity of science which has never been short of people for such tasks. As to the Serbian policy, it did not resort to similar language partition against the Yugoslav Albanians and Turks - they were actually deprived of all their rights; they were not considered nations at all, but rather a "minority" in its worst connotation, although they were prevalent in some areas. The assimilation effort against linguistically closer Bulgarian Macedonians, however, was much more apparent. For the sence of historical truth we should note that those assimilation efforts do not date back to socialist Yugoslavia, but even earlier, to the Serbian-Croatian-Slovenian Kingdom and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Yet they could score success only under socialism with its methods - in the post-1944 period. No wonder then that the Albanians do not tend to associate with the new Republic of Macedonia, while as far the "macedonized" Bulgarian Macedonians are concerned, it seems at least, they. do. I do not subscribe to any annexations (Anschlusse), something I feel alien to, being Austrian; I believe that the Slav Macedonians are bound to re-think the roots of their identity which as of 1944, has been resting on a diffuse feeling of being Yugoslav. Any single piece of criticism against the new, Macedonian language is by rule interpreted as a blow against Yugoslavia. Thus, the whole thing has boiled to overcoming the past since historical falsehood and forgery could not but influence younger generations who now suffer the copse-i quenches of national nihilism. The generation of today identifies itself with neither Serbia, nor Bulgaria. We can hardly deny the emergence of initial symptoms of a new identity. Here is one example from among many: the complete separation back in 1967, of the Macedonian from the Serbian-Orthodox church (though the former has never been recognized by the latter). [9] The degree of serbization however is considerable, which is indicative of the power of the Serbo-phile nomenclature in Macedonia.
 
Linguistic chaos
For the constructors of a language, and of the Macedonian literary language too, it is no problem at all to invent linguistic norms. The actual difficulty is whether these norms are applicable. The ways to say something on the one hand, and to spell it on the other, have always differed, yet the question is: Who speaks this language? Macedonians themselves can be heard to say quite often: we have no command of this language, we have not studied it. The immediate impression is how very uncertain such Macedonians feel linguistically. It transpires in every single piece of conversation, how tough it is for them to "stick" to this language. [10] Soon one is in trouble guessing whether what is spoken is bad Bulgarian, or bad Serbian. Anyway, no impression is left of a linguistic identity (unlike the case with Ladinian or Catalan). Talking with Macedonians, one is overwhelmed by compassion over their linguistic confusion. Such a language can be defined negatively: by stating what it is not. The drive to replace the nationality of the Macedonians, making them Serbian, has actually called to life a kind of a creole tongue, which for its part might be helpful to the Serbians some generations later to 'recommend' to the Macedonians Serbian as a literary language. And, in its current capacity of a literary Language, Macedonian is open to Serbian, with the latter supplying the former. As to Bulgarian, it has fallen in total isolation.
With the political situation of today pregnant with options for new orientation, this destructive process needs to be contained, despite the deep traces it has left in the course of its 50-year-long development. I will refrain from forecasts as to the future direction linguistic development is likely to take. However, one thing is certain: the present situation is quite unsatisfactory. Moreover, fears remain that there are quite a few people in Skopje, who might try to accomplish what has already been started. If so, a precedent for Europe might emerge when political glossotomy being a preliminary stage leading up to linguistic, respectively ethnic, changes, has turned out to be successful.

In view of the common, older than a millennium Bulgarian history, we can hope that political objectives resting upon numerous lies, will ultimately fail. Otherwise, the televised statement of a Serbian tchetnik on the Austrian Tv' might become a sad truth, notably, that Macedonians were not using a normal tongue, but a hotchpotch of Serbian plus Bulgarian words, hence, the Macedonians belonged to Serbia.

The fact that an American, Horace Lunt is the author of the Grammar of the Macedonian Literary Language (Skopje, 1952), the first grammar-book of Macedonian (!) paving the way for a literary language tailored by the communists, attests to the profound "insight" Americans show in European problems.
 

Ways to tackle the "Macedonian problem":
1) Leaving behind the bilingual theory.
2) Wider access for Bulgarian so that it can be used parallel to the current form of the Macedonian literary language.

3) Optional teaching of Bulgarian in primary and secondary schools.

4) Establishment of an Institute of Bulgarian Language and Literature a1 the University of Skopje.

5) Usage of the Bulgarian alphabet (orthography) for the current form of the Macedonian literary language.

6) Lifting all restrictions over the free exchange of newspapers, magazines and literature between Macedonia and Bulgaria.

7) Linguistic integration by way of joint radio and TV broadcasts, as well as theatre shows and recitals in the two countries.

8) Creation of a joint institution on the Macedonian-Bulgarian linguistic matters. (The linguistic convergence could intensify in this way).

9) Avoidance of further serbization of the language.

10) Exchange of works of history between the two

11) The right of free choice of a surname.

12) Joint effort on behalf of Macedonia and Bulgaria for the recognition of the Slav-Bulgarian ethnic group in Aegean Macedonia (Greece) in compliance with the principles of the European minority rights (see: the linguistic map in "Die slawischen Sprachen" 15/1988).

13) Recognition of minorities based on uniform principles.

14) Observance of accurate terminology with regard to residents of Macedonia (Bulgarian Macedonians, Albanian Macedonians, Turkish Macedonians etc.) and of Bulgaria (Bulgarian Bulgarians, Turkish Bulgarians, Macedonian Bulgarians etc.) .

Translated by Daniela Konstantinova
 

 

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------

1. See: DSS 14/1988: 23-66 (H. Goebl, Glottonymie, Glossotomie und Schizoglossie. Drei sprachpolitisch bedeutsame Begriffe).

2. See: DSS 19/1989: 11 5-i40 (K. Heitmann, Probleme der moldavischen Sprache in der Ara Gorbachov).

3. In the case of the Turkic peoples in the USSR, there were fears over the possible emergence of Pan-Turkic movements.

4. Compare, the valuable notes by Izo Kamartin, a specialist in Romansh (Nichts als Worte?) Ein Pladoyer fur Kleinsprachen. Zurich Munchen, 1985: 171 - Eine Kleine Literatur...)

5. P. Koledarov,Sofia, 1985; H.R. Wilkinson, Maps and Politics, A Review of the Ethnographic Cartography of Macedonia, Liverpool, 1951.

6. Even surnames with the Bulgarian ending -os/-es were refashioned into -??? or -??? ( Serbian -?). Thus, Georgiev would turn into Georgievski or Georgievi.

7. My own experience testifies to how very anxious Serbia was over cutting off any contact between Bulgaria and Macedonia. After the First International Congress of Bulgaran Studies closed (1981), I was traveling home from Sofia, when I was held for 5 hours at the Serbian border (in Gradina/Dimitrovgrad). There a UDBA-group from Nish started a lengthy inquiry, followed by taking away various Bulgarian books and magazines they found in my car. And since I wanted to speak in Bulgarian, they told me to use a normal (Serbian?) language. They accused me of being a Bulgarian spy employed by the Bulgarian secret services. Further I was warned that if I persisted in manifesting anti-Yugoslav sentiments (non-acceptance of the Macedonian language?), I had to suffer the respective consequences.

8. While in Slavonic and Romance studies and in general linguistics there was not a hint of hesitation as to the linguistic features of the region by World War II, after the war the view and stands of quite a few students of Slavonic studies concerning the Macedonian problem, could be singled out for their exceptional naively. The latter could very well be in some relation with summer courses in Macedonia at the fascinating Ohrid lake, or else with the awarding of the title of corresponding member of the Macedonian Academy of Sciences.

An example of the in-depth pre-war research is the work "Ethnography of Macedonia"., Leipzig, 1924 (re-printed in Sofia, 1981) by G. Weigand and "Studies in Macedonian Dialectology", Kazan, 1918 (re-printed in Sofia, 1981) by A.M. Selishtchev. Weigand, as well as Selischev, speak about Bulgarians in Macedonia and Macedonian Bulgarian language.

9. Compare D. Ilievski, The Autocephality of the Macedonian Orthodox Church. Skopje, 1972. As there is no national (Macedonian) translation available of the Bible, the Serbian one is being recommended, and it is another factor for the structuring of the Macedonian literary language. Bulgarian in all of its aspects is deliberately kept in hiding.

10. The story goes that one of the leading glossotomists was delivering a lecture at the St. Kliment of Okhrida University in Sofia, in Macedonian: when however, a sudden draught scattered his manuscript, he just went on lecturing... in Bulgarian.

* The Bulgarian Exarchate (18701912)

This map represents the boundaries of the Bulgarian Exarchate. The quarrel about the establishment of the Bulgarian National-Church lasted 40 years; it began 1830 and found an end on the 28th of February 1870 (ancient style) by a Turkish Ferman

Sultans Ferman for the establishment of a Bulgarian Exarchate.

which established the Bulgarian Exarchate at Constantinople. At first the Bulgarian people demanded the right of electing themselves their own bishops, who should have to belong to the Bulgarian nationality too. The first towns to declare such desire were Uscub (Skopje) and Samokov (in the year 1833). But the Greek Patriarchate was decidedly opposed to it and the controversy took two new forms: the demand of the Bulgarian Bishops was increased with the desire for religious service of their own and schools of their own, the Greek Bishops in the Bulgarian Eparchies were openly and violently persecuted. This happened in many towns of Bulgaria, Thracia and Macedonia. The Ferman of the Sultan relating to the erection of the Bulgarian Exarchate, expressly denominated in the first paragraph of the 10-th article as Bulgarian the following Eparchies: Rustschuk, Silistra, Varna, Schumen, Tirnovo, Lovetsch, Vratza, Vidin, Sofia, Kiustendil, Samokov, Nisch, Pirot and Veless; the second paragraph of the same article decides that other Eparchies too should be allowed to acknowledge the Exarchie if at least 2/3 of their Christian inhabitants should demand this. According to this second paragraph of the Ferman a "people's-vote" was made by the Turkish authorities under control of the Greek Patriarchate. This people's-vote" proved that the largest part of Macedonia wanted to acknowledge the Bulgarian Exarchate, whereupon bishops were appointed for Uscub, Ochrida and Monastir; (for Veless, expressly named in the Ferman, such appointment had already taken place). But soon after this occurred the Bulgarian insurrections of 187576, which were followed by the Russo-Turkish war, which events exposed the Bulgarians in the eyes of the Turks. Unfortunately the people's-vote" could not be completed in the southern part of Macedonia and, where it was completed, Bulgarian Bishops were not appointed in all of these Eparchies; and where such had tried to go, they were thence driven away by the authorities. The attempts made 1884/1885 to send Bulgarian Bishops in Macedonia failed on account of the protest of the Greek Patriarchate, of Serbia and of Greece. Soon after came the union of the two Bulgarias which newly compromised the Bulgarians in the eyes of the Turks. Only in the year l890, new Bulgarian Bishops were appointed at Uscub and at Ochrida; in the year 1894 bishops came to Veless and Nevrokop, and 1897 to Monastir, Debar and Strumitza. The other Eparchies never had any Bulgarian Bishops. The Turkish Government only allowed the Bulgarian clergy of these Eparchies to represent the Bulgarians before the local authorities and to manage their own school-matters.

The white-hatched places on the map denote those Eparchies that did not get Bulgarian Bishops.

Long posts , but useful to read and learn..

Isk.

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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 05:45

Some History FACTS ...no propaganda...

1)In the Law of Serbian Emperor Stephan Dushan (Dushanov Zakonik) issued 1349-1354 in Skoplje and Seress following peoples are mentioned in Serbiaerbs,Greeks,Albanians (Arbanasi) (art.77,82), Aromanians (Vlasi) (art.32,77,82), Saxons (Sasi) (art.123).

Novakovich,S. "Zakonik Stefana Dushana Cara Srpskog 1349-1354" Beograd 1898

2)In the second half of 14th century, monk Isaiah said that Ugljesha has risen Serbian and Greek army (Srbskija i Grchskiija voiska) and his brother Vukashin,and with that army they confronted the invading Turks.

Novakovich,S. "Srbi i Turci XIV i XV veka , 1893,pp.184,

Mikloshich ,F. "S.Joannis Chrystostomi homilia in ramos palmarum", 1845, pp.71

Mikloshich,F. "Chrestomatia Paleoslovenica", 1861, pp 41

3)Archbiscop of Ohrid Avram in 1634 arrived in Russia with escort.When asked,they said they were Greeks from the Serbian land of Ohrid (Grechane Serpskie zemli iz Ahridona Goroda).

Archive of the Russian Ministry Of Foreign Affairs, Year 7142,No 8

4)Archbiscop of Skoplje writtes about Serbia and says that Skoplje is capital city in serbia (Scopia....metropolli di Servia).Further,He mentiones that Orthodox houses in Skoplje are Greek and Serbian (Case Greche e Serviane).

Theiner,A. ibidem, pp. 220

5)A group of French staff officers in 1807,with the permission of the Turks, traveled around Macedonia compiling a statistical survey of the population. Apart from Greeks,Turks,Albanians and Aromanians they found only Serbs.

Slijepchevich, Dj. "The Macedonian Question",The American Institute For Balkan Affairs Chicago,1958

6)Bulgarian publicist Rakovski noted in the 19th century that Macedonian emigrants in Srem and Southern Hungary called themselves Serbs and Greeks.
G.S.Rakovski "Gorski Patnik" pp.267,268 (n.d.).

Isk.

 

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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 05:51

And last , for today ...The words of ur own people..

 

Fact #1
The inhabitants of The FYROM are mostly Slavs, Bulgarians and Albanians.  They have nothing in common with the ancient Macedonians.  Here are some testimonies from The FYROMs officials:

a.         &nbs p;         The former President of The FYROM, Kiro Gligorov said:  We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" (Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35).

b.         &nbs p;        Also, Mr Gligorov declared:  "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.  That's who we are!  We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" (Toronto Star, March 15, 1992).

c.         &nbs p;         On 22 January 1999, Ambassador of the FYROM to USA, Ljubica Achevska gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans.  In answering questions at the end of her speech Mrs. Acevshka said:  "We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great Greece is Macedonias second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nemitz."  In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language.  

d.         &nbs p;        On 24 February 1999, in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great.  We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian."  He also commented, There is some confusion about the identity of the people of my country." 

e.         &nbs p;          Moreover, the Foreign Minister of the FYROM, Slobodan Casule, in an interview to Utrinski Vesnik of Skopje on December 29, 2001, said that he mentioned to the Foreign Minister of Bulgaria, Solomon Pasi, that they "belong to the same Slav people.

Read them well....u may still be educated..

Isk..

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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 06:53

http://www.hri.org/docs/macque/text2.html

Their first aim was to cut off every link between the so-called "Macedonians" and the Bulgarians, as a well as the Serbs, and to convince the people that they belonged to a separate Slavic nation, the "Macedonian" one. Therefore the history of the region, as well as the language, had to be "purged" of all Bulgarian and Serbian elements. All Bulgarian and Serbian historical data connected to that region - historical events, people, activities and intellectual work - were renamed "Macedonian"18, so that they could be incorporated into the new "Macedonian" history which was then being written, or, if they did not fit into the new historical frame work and guidelines, they were denounced as hostile19.

The second aim was to eliminate Greek character of Macedonia and Macedonian history; and this would be achieved by minimizing the Greek presence in this region and misinterpreting or falsifying their role, specifically the cultural and intellectual contribution of Hellenism, the orthodox Greek clergy and Greek schools.

The third aim was to search for, fabricate and project the historical development of the so-called "Macedonian people", so as to prove the separate national identity of the "Macedonians", as well as their cohesion and continuity from ancient times until today. It should be noted that this attempt was the reverse of normal methods: that is, they studied modern history first and turned to the study of Antiquity later20.

The fourth aim was to create a Great Idea21, which would bring awareness to the masses. So the historians of Skopje started declaring that Macedonia, as a whole, was a Slavic country both in its historical tradition and its ethnic composition. For this reason, it had to be united and form a unified state. After World War II, only the Yugoslavian part was re-established nationally within the framework of the Yugoslav Federation. The other two parts, Aegean Macedonia and Pirin Macedonia would have to be restored, i.e., to be united with Yugoslav Macedonia22.



Edited by tzar
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2005 at 16:23

i already wrote an comment, with implemented question should i answer you here or well  talk about your "version" in some other existing thread or we start new thread.

I dunno how my post "disapeared", but however...

so, you wanna talk about Macedonia? hehe, stop talkin crap than, pls , & first visit Macedonia (at best all 3 parts of it).

Taking out of contest words & toughts is not leading us anywhere...

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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2005 at 10:10
Originally posted by Serdarot

so, you wanna talk about Macedonia? hehe, stop talkin crap than, pls , & first visit Macedonia (at best all 3 parts of it).

Well , i am living in Macedonia , not FYROM of course , but Macedonia ...What would happen if i visit Pirin ?? The worst that can happen is to dig and find an inscription in Greek language ....nothing more , nothing less ... And even IF i visit FYROM , should i tell them there that Gligorov was crap , talking about crap ??

Sorry , but there is no point to do as u suggest..

Taking out of contest words & toughts is not leading us anywhere...

Sure ..this is why i used Historians and officials from FYROM ...which u can never doubt..

Isk..

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  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2005 at 10:31
Originally posted by Serdarot

regarding the DNA tests / studies...

What DNA studies ?? R u talking about the ones i have posted ?? Do i have to post them again ??

ok, i give my blood for the next, i wanna see if Aleks was my grandpa, maybe ill get the Macedonian Crown one day  

Beeing of Slavish origin , i dont think u have any chance on that ... except if the mitH test can show you were kin of Olympiada...mother of Alexander ( did u notice ?? Another Slavic name..) 

i already wrote, there are only FEW (& i mean few!) lunatics who have dreams for "big macedonia"

So the school books of the FYROM's educational system , are written by lunatics ??? Have u send any complain to ur goverment about this ??

most of us are LIVING the EUROPEAN reality, & do i have to remind you that we dont have WISH, the economic & military power to Conquer Greece or any other land

Sure , i know of that ....besides almost 40% of ur population are Albanians , hardly u can call them Makedonskies too...is that so ??

so, why you keep on insulting & attacking us...

Here , just wait a min.... U want to say that we have attacked u and insulted u just like that ?? without any reason ?? I will give u reasons.

1) U are Slavs , either Serbs , or Bulgarians , living in the piece of the geographical area called Macedonia and in a 34% part of it..U insult US by claiming u r Macedonians , and u insult US again by trying to claim that a part of our NATIONAL HISTORY , belongs to u ...U ATTACK us by saying in ur constitution that in the "enslaved part of Macedonia , the Aegean Macedonia , there are 1.000.000 Macedonians under slavery and that one day u will liberate them uniting all Macedonia ...This crap , belongs to u ...and its a straight attack against our nation...

So if u r so kind , just check who started all this ....

do we have to call you "djipsie-greeks" ???or "afro-greeks" ?or your state "Former Republic of Greece - Athen full of niggaz"?

U can keep insulting us ...we are aware of these tactics of yours..

can you get my point, my friend? so more respect & tolerance, pls, to eachother & to the MANKIND, not to the Macedonians only...

Of course , why not ... sure , i agree on this ...But u mean to Slav Macedonians i guess .... Of Macedonians i know nothing....Macedonians were Hellenes , not Slavs...

Isk..

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2005 at 10:46

Topic is about "Balkan Wars", please stop posting irrelevant posts and turning this into another Greek Vs. FYRoMacedonia debate or the thread will be locked and those who continue will receive an official warning!

 

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2005 at 09:56
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

Well, will these talks lead up to the present day status of the Balcans and the reason why the Bosnians hate the Serbs and the Macedonians hate the Albanians. Is it all because of bloody history that has been and will be never ending?


Tere sber!
Good question you have put here.
Well, the answer is quite straight-forward:
because of all the mess that has been going on for millennia, people in the Balkans have really forgotten why they are fighting. And personally, I think that there is no real reason but micropolitical causes.
Any self-asserted national saviour savours the idea of being proclaimed a hero of his nation and goes on posing claims and declaring war to neighbours for alleged mistreatment of alleged minorities in neighbouring countries.
The source of this mess is one. Too much free time.

Seriously now, some regions in the world are plagued by unrest and everlasting fluidity. The reasons vary, but the observation is the original one I mentioned in the beginning. They are used to fighting and, although they hate it, something inside them urges them to go on fighting.
Here in Greece, for at least the last 30 years, we have tried to keep out from this mess, only intervening through recognised international channels of influence (EU, UN, etc.) for this carnage to come to an end.
Of course, we have had our part in earlier conflicts, but not entirely unprovoked.
But nowadays we have stepped back to see the whole pictuere and he do not like what we see. It needs to change, it needs to stop.

So all Balkan people reading, contemplate (or meditate on) thins:
How about we all go for a coffee? How about we have a nice match of football? How about going home to see our families and our businesses and our countries' economies that falter and stutter and wobble and are in the brink of bankruptcy if not already? We have mouths to feed and businesses to attend to.

Sorry to have been going on like this, but I think I have had enough for today.

Anyway, I hope I have correctly shed some light to the situation in the Balkans.

Tervitades ja hea ndalalpp.
Tule kreekasse, meil on pikesepaiste, meri, hea kohv ja vein!


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