Battles that Great Empires Lost

OK, don't jump on me here, but where I saw this was in an Osprey, Armies in the Balkans 1914-1918.  I know, I know it's not the Bulgarian state archives, but we do what we can.

Bulgaria fielded 13 divisions (one mountain) and two cavalry divisions.

The infantry divisions were 24,000 strong!  Like a corps in other armies.  Assuming the mountain division was less than the others, that is still about 300,000.  The cav divs were probably 5 or 6,000, and then there were all the heavy bridgeing and construction engineering, artillery reserve, transport and depot troops as well as "militia" whatever that meant in the Bulgarian system.  In addition, like most of the other newer states, paramilitary gendarmes were classed as military personnel.  500,000 is not out of the question, but many were no doubt overage rear echelon troops.

I did think the Bulgarian population was more like 5,000,000 though.

Don't know.  Might be an interesting study, but I don't know where you would get the data.

All you guys from Bulgaria...any info on this, like from government records and so on?

The siege of Eger in 1552.

There were 2100 defender (inclueding women and children) against an ottoman army consisting 80 000 soldiers.

Although the fort was lost latter the battle was significant in the ottoman-hungarian border wars. It showed

1. the difference between national troops (1552) and the latter foreign mercenaries (They simply surrendered and do not try to resist.)

2. that the ottoman army not invincible and it is possible to resist.

The women of Eger by Bertalan Sz�kely:

Im ww1 Bulgarian army was 1 200 000 but Germany "free" aid was  25 000 000$ and also helped us with guns and amonitions during the war.But we also helped Germany with foods.

I don't think Allia or Cannae should be included in this catalogue of imerial defeats. Rome only became a true empire after its victory in the Second Punic War.

Here's one imperial defeat for ya: The Portuguese under king Sancho the first beat the Almohads in Santarem, thus halting their advance.

 I would agree with Manzikert, but not Myriokephalon I think Myriokephalon was more a psychological blow than anything else, it should be remembered both sides suffered heavy casualties all it did was reinforce the shift in the balance of power in Asia Minor which began in earnest at Manzikert.

 The Byzantine army I believe was fighting in the west not long after Myriokephalon so the army was clearly far from destroyed, I think Manuel II's comparing this to Manzikert is over the top. As a psychological blow though I suppose it was just as potent.

Greece DID use airplanes in the Blakan wars. I don't remember how they were called, but we had some. One recontructed is in the war museum of Athens. Now, the point is who used their planes first, in the same war. Greeks or Bulgarians? Well, I don't care. I just say that from my general knowledge Greeks are regarded to be the first.

About the second Blakan war. I don't know how much you've studied these wars. I personally have. The first decicive bloody battle that the Bulgarians lost against Greece was the battle of Kilkis/Lahanas . In this battle, both sides had heavy casualties, some 7000 each, plus some thousands Bulgarian soldiers were taken prisoner. The Greeks, exploiting their victory chased the Bulgarian army. A second battle was given next to the lake Doiran. Greeks win again, capturing also much heavy equipment.

The Greek army now marches forth, destroying any small Bulgarian resistance found. The Greek army crosses by force the Kresna passage, exposing its supply line. On the exit of the passage, Bulgarian units that had withdrawn from the front with the Serbs attack the Greek 4th division, which protects the left flank of the Greek army and also most importantly it protects the Greek supply line, which goes through the passage of Kresna. The order for the Greek left flank is to hold at any costs. Greeks call the Serbs to attack, now that the bulgarian front has been weakened. The Serbs however DO NOT come to aid, as they have already made their counterattack which failed, and basically they have accomplished thier objectives.

The situation for the Greek army is bad, as the Bulgarinas are making very strong attacks against the Greek left flank. A collapse of the left flank means that the already long supply line will be cut, with devastating effects for the Greek army, deep into Bulgarian territory. The Greek high command of course does not remain idle. It orders the right flank to flank the Bulgarian attacking forces! This manouvre touches Tsoumagia, the deepest point of the Greek attack. The attack is conducted. As a result the pressure against the left flank of the Greeks is so reduced that the Greeks consider there is no danger anymore. The war stops here, as the two sides agree to a cease fire, and some days later to peace. The battle of Simitli (or Kresna, as you call it), has ended. The Bulgarians have failed to destroy the Greek army. The Greek army has kept firmly its positions. Greeks consider it a clear victory over the Bulgarians, the third major victory in this 2nd Blakan war.

In WW1, the Bulgarian front broke at Skra in 1918. The Greek entarance to the war gave the allies enough numerical superiority to attack again (an attempt in 1917 had failed badly). The attack, initially by Greek units, punched a hole to the Bulgarian line. French and Serbian divisions flow through this hole, reaching Skopje in a few days.