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There is no finno-ugric/uralic language f
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gerik View Drop Down
Knight
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Posts: 85 		  Quote gerik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: There is no finno-ugric/uralic language f
    Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 14:51
Probably you heard about Angela Marcantonio,lecturer  in General Linguistics at the University of Rome 'La Sapienza', specialising in Uralic studies.

Some of her papers are:
         The Uralic Language Family: Facts, Myths and Statistics  (actually this is a book)
       http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/book.asp?ref=0631231706
Editor's summary:

In this detailed survey of Finnish, Hungarian, Lapp and the other Uralic Languages, Angela Marcantonio shows there is in fact no scientific evidence to support the belief that they form a genetic family. If this approach is accepted, this detailed analysis will have far-reaching consequences for other assumed language families.


     The "Ugric-Turkic" battle:a critical review, coauthors:  Pirjo Nummenaho, Michela Salvagni.
 You can find the paper  in english at:
http://www.kirj.ee/esi-l-lu/l37-2-1.pdf

The conclusion of the authors are:

Our first conclusion is, therefore, that the existence and uniqueness of
the Finno-Ugric node was n o t established scientifically and beyond doubt in the last decades of the 19 Century, as widely propagated and believed.
Our second conclusion is that, to borrow D. Sinors words, ... Uralic, Altaic,and Uralo-Altaic comparative linguistics should shake themselves free from simplistic black and white, yes and no solutions (1988 : 739) and that, therefore, the traditional approach to the Uralic and Altaic studies clearly demands a much needed revision.


This phrases are highly used in hungarian circles.

And there is another event (other being the book of Marino Alinei: Etrusco.Una forma arcaica di unghere-[Etruscan: An Archaic Form of Hungarian] ) which created senzation in hungarian news but
not only. In 12 -nov-2004  Angela Marcantonio held a lecture at the University of Amsterdam followed by a debate. As a result of this debate
the non existance of uralic/finno-ugric language family was accepted by dutch linguists, even by Norval Smith,  phonology professor at Department of Theoretical Linguistics, University of Amsterdam.
http://www.demokrata.hu/node/686
http://www.naput.hu/modules.php?name=News&...article& ; ; ; ;sid=788

Edited by gerik
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gerik View Drop Down
Knight
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Posts: 85 		  Quote gerik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 14:53
Onother critique of the finno-ugrian theory is Dr. Lszl Marcz a  linguist of a Dutch university.
Some of his works:

THE UNTENABILITY OF THE FINNO-UGRIAN THEORY
FROM A LINGUISTIC POINT OF VIEW

http://www.acronet.net/~magyar/english/1997-3/JRNL97B.htm


The Magyar Turning Point; Political Opinions Concerning Central Europe was published in 1995 in the Dutch language
You can find a downloadable abriged MS WORD version of the book in english  at:
http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/maracz/maracz.zip


Dr. Lszl Marcz is accused unfairly to be nationalist, it is a usual way to discredit people.

The following webpage attacks him in  in such a vituperative manner.
It seems the owner of the webpage never read his articles.

 http://www.geocities.com/isolintu/voodoo.html


Lszl Marcz
happens to be a decent linguist of a Dutch university and also who shares
anti finno-ugric views.
I quote Lszl Marcz as a good answer:


 The pseudo science of Finno-Ugrianizm comprises the following tenets:
1. We dont talk about anything that does not justify the Finno Ugrian theses
2. Anyone who judges the Finno-Ugrianizm can and should be subject to slander
3. Put such words into the mouth of the critic which he never said, and refute this statement.
4. Finno-Ugrianizm possesses the eternal truth.
5. Within Finno-Ugrianizm double standards are permitted.
6. Stating the truth is not allowed
7. The sciento-political background of the theory is a taboo.
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gerik View Drop Down
Knight
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Posts: 85 		  Quote gerik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 14:55
The Uralic Language Family: Facts, Myths and Statistics the book of Angela Marcantonio received a bad review from  Johanna Laakso,a biased one,it is usual for a mainstream finno-ugrist. Usually they hardly accept any critique of their views.

 http://homepage.univie.ac.at/Johanna.Laakso/am_rev.html

I qoute a main-stream finno-ugrist page in the defence of Angela Marcantonio :

http://lepo.it.da.ut.ee/~lillekas/mainlanguage.html


And last but not least: the Uralist Angela Marcantonio has accomplished something that her colleagues usually do not engage themselves in. Namely, she has scrupulously read through all essential Uralic research works through times. As a result of her activity she noticed in her book (Marcantonio 2002) that a number of works, belonging to the Uralistic classics had in the course of time become myths, one way or another. It means that instead of understanding the actual contents or nature of the works, certain stereotypical notions about the contents or nature, far from truthful, have been circulating among Uralistic researchers. In a number of cases a similar observation is extended also over what has taken place in the history of Uralistics. Eventually, the so-called fundamentals of Uralistics have also been critically addressed. Observing the picture, unfurled by Marcantonio in her book, one can naturally anticipate that Uralistics is no exception: to a certain degree a similar fate has struck the sciences researching other language groups. Besides, the phenomenon is of a much wider scope than just linguistics or the humanities it is probably characteristic of scientific activity as a whole and through the ages. The more welcome it is when, at some instant, someone steps up saying: it is high time to take an account of the household of our science there are probably things in the account that have long since disappeared or that are not useable any longer. In place of some things there is only a distant memory, often obscured beyond recognition: just nothing but a myth. And so, Marcantonio has taken an account of the results that may certainly appear as a very bad surprise to numerous traditional Uralists.
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 16:28
All that is fine. But does it just mean that Magyar and its closest relatives are to be considered out of the Uralic family or does it mean that all the Uralic family doesn't exist at all. In other words: are Finn and Lapp related? Finn and Samoyede? Etc. The Uralic family could well exist even if Hungarian happens to be a Turk language, a hybrid or a family of its own. What is what has been challenged. As far as I know, only the belonging of Magyar to this family has been challenged in favor of the Turkic one. 

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 154 		  Quote Attila2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 21:52

Anyone who says there is no uralo-altaic languages or their subgroups is a liar!

There are hell-loads of similarities even between turkish and finnish!
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Posts: 85 		  Quote gerik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 04:26
All I wanted to state that the  finno-ugric language theory does not hold up.
The same is true is for the ugric group consisted of hungarian,hansi and mansi. The moment you consider that hungarian is not ugric the remaining
part of the finno-ugric language group is consisted only of finns and the two little people of Siberia.

Of course finnic and lapish language is related closely.

And I wanted to shed light on the misconceptions which relate hungarian language to the finnic ones. Fact is a fact

The Finno-Ugrian theory underdetermines. It fails to isolate any lexical parallels that are valid only in the case of the Finno-Ugrian languages, but that leave out other Eurasian languages out such as the Altaic languages, the Turkish, the Mongolian etc.


I rephrase : the  distance between the hungarian language and the finnic
ones is greater then the finno-ugrist say,and we can only speak of very distant relationship,no more close then the altaic one.
I did not say that these languages do not relate at all,but they are very distant,and if they are no more close then turkic then the language group
is a false one.
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Posts: 241 		  Quote minchickie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 23:31

Gerik, as a Hungarian myself, I couldnt agree more with you. You know, I tried once to take a beginners course in Finnish and had a very rough time picking up even the basics and the second beginners course  was only getting harder for me to pick comprehend. Youd think it would be easy since Hungarian and Finnish are supposedly related right? THEN I decided to try Turkish and I found it extremely easy to pick up  because the grammatical structure is very close. I had no idea that the structure was so similar! The Finno-Ugriac theory in my opinion (and many others) is that it was used for political reasons when Hungarians needed a "European-ancestor" to grab onto because we were at one time being looked at as barbaric asian tribes by everyone in Europe who wanted us pushed-out.

 

The Hungarian Language is not in alliance with Finnish at all.  We dont even understand one word between each other whereas say Turkish we share many many words.



Edited by minchickie
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Posts: 431 		  Quote Nagyfejedelem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 04:02
The number of the Turkish words is quite bigger in the Hungarian language than Finno-Ugric words. And the appearance and orgenised of the Hungarians was Turk.
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Posts: 43 		  Quote rapala Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 09:07

well if u think finnish is hard then u should learn estonian instead becous it use the same kind of letters like hungarian.

 
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Posts: 368 		  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 16:15
Nonsense, of course estonian, finish and smi are related
Nu guhk go mis leat meahcit, de lea mis dorvu dn eatnam alde

Ossfok i s kringest sturwekster sttliger. Summer v kulluma i riktit finer!
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Posts: 43 		  Quote rapala Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 17:32

Originally posted by Mangudai

Nonsense, of course estonian, finish and smi are related

it's true sami, estonian and finnish are related but some people can't accept it becous they think finland is indoeuropeean. 



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Posts: 85 		  Quote gerik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 03:31
All I wanted to say in the aboves that hungarian is not finno-ugric or more
precisly hungarian can not be considered more close to finno-ugric than to altaic,hence there is no finno-ugric language group or the uralic tree has to be redrawed. We can speak  only of distant relationship with the finnic languages.
Also the so called language group was established by amateurs and was made in an unscientific manner.


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Posts: 85 		  Quote gerik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 03:35
Read
The "Ugric-Turkic" battle:a critical review, coauthors:  Pirjo Nummenaho, Michela Salvagni,in order to fully understand the subject!
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Posts: 43 		  Quote rapala Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 07:53

Originally posted by gerik

Read
The "Ugric-Turkic" battle:a critical review, coauthors:  Pirjo Nummenaho, Michela Salvagni,in order to fully understand the subject!

hungarian is both finno ugric and turkic.


Although the Hungarians are ethno-linguistically related to the Uralic peoples, it is inaccurate to include them in this group. The Hungarians are not Finno-Ugrian, they belong in their own group to which both the Uralic and Altaic groups are related.

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Posts: 366 		  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 14:54
Originally posted by minchickie

Gerik, as a Hungarian myself, I couldnt agree more with you. You know, I tried once to take a beginners course in Finnish and had a very rough time picking up even the basics and the second beginners course  was only getting harder for me to pick comprehend. Youd think it would be easy since Hungarian and Finnish are supposedly related right? THEN I decided to try Turkish and I found it extremely easy to pick up  because the grammatical structure is very close. I had no idea that the structure was so similar! The Finno-Ugriac theory in my opinion (and many others) is that it was used for political reasons when Hungarians needed a "European-ancestor" to grab onto because we were at one time being looked at as barbaric asian tribes by everyone in Europe who wanted us pushed-out.

 

The Hungarian Language is not in alliance with Finnish at all.  We dont even understand one word between each other whereas say Turkish we share many many words.

Minichickie, I tried to learn Latin once, and in spite of the fact that Portuguese is a romance language, I couldn't get it right. And I wouldn't know Persian if it stuck me on the head with a hammer, and Persian is an Indo-European language!

Whatever resemblances between Hungarian and Turkish may come from the fact that a few of the tribes coming into Hungary along with the Magyars were turkish.
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Posts: 85 		  Quote gerik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 15:20
Degrado I do not find impossible or improbable that the hungarian langauge is related to the turkic ones .
Example mother and father in  hungarian is  anya  , apa/atya .  Ana , ata, apa
are  altaic words. In moder turkish: anna/anne , baba/ata/apa.

These are just some words,the grammar of hungarian and turkic languages
also share many simmilarities. I quote and independent page (so not
an adherent to a theory or onother)


Hungarian (called by its speakers Magyar) belongs genetically to the language family known as Uralic. In many works of reference the term Finno-Ugrian or Finno-Ugric was widely used and is still sometimes found, although this is now known to be not entirely accurate. In terms of language type, that is to say, the structure of its meaningful units, it is an agglutinating language, with a relatively large number of easily identifiable grammatical and word-forming elements forming chains towards the end of the word. In this respect it resembles the Turkic languages more than some other Uralic ones.


Source:
The hungarian language
From UCL , School of Slavonic and East European Studies





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Alparslan View Drop Down
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Posts: 517 		  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 16:37

Originally posted by gerik

And there is another event (other being the book of Marino Alinei: Etrusco.Una forma arcaica di unghere-[Etruscan: An Archaic Form of Hungarian] ) which created senzation in hungarian news but
not only.

This is interesting. In Turkey there are also some researchers claiming that Etruscan were speaking a sort of Turkish.  There were also some genetic studies conducted by non-Turks showing close relation between Etruscan genes and Turks. They said Turkish genes are the closest to Etruscan by tree times than any neighbouring nation of Tuscania, Italy.

I wonder if there is a study something like this with Hungarians?

I did not met with an Hungarian before. I really wonder if they look like similar to Turks or not.......

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Posts: 241 		  Quote minchickie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 08:27

The anthropology searched the Hungarian old country by morphologic searches. The old country of the Hungarians have to be searched where people lived or even live like Hungarians. The Uyghur cementery at Astana near to the Jungar Gate revealed by Aurel Stein between 1913 and 1915 grounds for this, wherefrom 1200 graves were revealed by Uyghur and Chinese subsequently in 1986 AD. The in this cementary buried people were morphologically the same as those being settled in the Carpathian Basin as Hungarians. Demonstartive is the fact that Turanian, Pamirian and Taurid elements got into the Carpathian Basin by the Hungarians those are typical of the Turkish nations of Innermost Asia only, but occur nowhere else in Europe. Beside the morpholigical searches the physiological searches give lately information about the origin of a nation. Within the Landsteiner Bloodgroup System the rate of the typical Hungarian 0 and B bloodgroup gene (31,05% and 17,90%) is off from of the europid and Finno-Ugric nations, but ranges with the rates of the Innermost Asian Turkish nations. Beside of this occurs also an other kind of bloodgroup character among the Hungarians (e.g. the Diego [A+]) presented in no other nation of Europe. The in Europe almost unknown mongolic spot has 22.6% of occurrence and the also rarely occurring lactose intolerance (missing lactose digestive enzyme) is at 37% among the Hungarians racy of the soil, like in Innermost Asia. The skin splinter (brlc) system of the Hungarians has Innermost Asian characteristic (low bend rates, but high of wortexes). The Gm-marker searches pointed out, that among the Hungarians occurring Gm abst and Gm afb3 marked genemarkers miss by the European nations. The until now done international mitochondrial DNA searches have also Innermost Asian characters, showing our merge with other European nations, but our genetic non relationship with Finnish and Finno-Ugric nations also obvious.

(Semino, Ornell Passarino, Giuseppe et al. Science. 10th November 2000.).

www.biography.ms/Hungarian_Old_Country,_The-:_by_Dr._Istvan_ Kiszely.html

 
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Posts: 241 		  Quote minchickie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 08:43

I did not met with an Hungarian before. I really wonder if they look like similar to Turks or not.......

Hungarians look all different. Dont go by the ones in Budapest because that place is all mixed racially. But here are a few Hungarians : (here are some nice looking ones but all are hungarian. you can see some look asian, some mixed)



Edited by minchickie
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Posts: 517 		  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2005 at 13:16

 

It is interesting for me that some names are very Turkic. For example Nagy Bori, Egri and Gyürük Ura. But I had read long times ego Pal Street Childs of Ferenc Molnar (I loved it and read 4 times) and I remember the names of childs were very different than those names above. I wonder why?

The first 3 pictures and last 4 belong to  models and others belong to acteurs, actress and one football player. (The last 4 is for you and me)

All are Turks and I think Turks and Hungarians are not very different.

I will post rendom Turkish people pictures in another thread.....

 

 
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