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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Scythians
    Posted: 05-Dec-2005 at 09:25
Actually I also do not understand why in Mongolia. There are many Scythian "kurgans" left in North Caucasus, Ukraine steppes. As I understood those areas were the most populated by Scythians by density of their kurgans. Were those "Scythian" also Kazakh related? If so, who could be their descendents there? I think Kazakhs are to few to cover all areas where "Scythians" lived.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2005 at 16:37
Kurgans (also called tumuli or mounds) are not just Scythian, they are a key finding of early IE cultures. Scythians are just one of their offsprings. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2005 at 20:34
The oldest scythian kurgans are in Altaj.
 http://www.fotuva.org/history/archaeology.html



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 00:42
Where do they originate from? the Scythians?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 09:39

setImgWidth();  The Saka tribes are written in purple. they originated in the CA asia region and some of them migrated west.  Sara Mata are the most direct ancestors of Alans/Ossetians.  Pakhtuns havea  language believed to be descended from Saka.

  • The Sak haumavarg ('haoma-drinking Sacae') were subjected by Cyrus the Great. Herodotus calls them Amyrgian Scythians. Haoma was a trance inducing drink, made from fly agaric. This mushroom does not occur south of the river Amudar'ya (Oxus). Consequently, we may assume that these nomads lived in Uzbekistan. Herodotus informs us that they wore trousers and pointed caps; they fought as archers. He also mentions their use of the battle ax (which they called sagaris).

  • The Sak tigrakhaud ('Sacae with pointed hats') were defeated in 520/519 BCE by the Persian king Darius I the Great, who gave this tribe a new leader. One of the earlier leaders was killed, the other, named Skunkha, was taken captive and is visible on the relief at Behistun. (It is possible that Darius created a new tribe from several earlier tribes.) Herodotus calls the Sak tigrakhaud the Orthocorybantians ('pointed hat men'), and informs us that they lived in the same tax district as the Medes. This suggests that the Sak tigrakhaud lived on the banks of the ancient lower reaches of the Amudar'ya, which used to have a mouth in the Caspian Sea south of Krasnovodsk. The pointed hat is a kind of turban.

  • A golden comb with a Scythians in Battle,
    Late 5th - early 4th century BCE
  • The Ap Sak ('Water Sacae') are also known as the Pausikoi, as Herodotus prefers to call them. Later authors, like Arrian of Nicomedia (in his Anabasis) and Ammianus Marcellinus (in his Roman history) call them the Abian Scythians; still later, we encounter them as the Apasiaki, first east and later southwest of Lake Aral. They must be situated along the ancient lower reaches of the Amudar'ya.

  • The tribe that Herodotus calls 'Massagetes' must have been called something like Mh-Sak in Persian, which means 'Moon Sacae', but this is confusing. Ma-Sak means Moon Sacae, and it is known that the Massagetes venerated only one god, the Sun. The Massagetes were responsible for the death of the Persian king Cyrus the Great (in December 530). From Herodotus' description, it is clear that they lived along the Syrdar'ya (Jaxartes).

  • The nomad tribe known as Dah, which means 'robbers', is mentioned for the first time in the Daiva inscription of Xerxes; he must have subjected them. Herodotus calls the Dai a Persian nomad tribe (above), but they can not have lived in Persia proper, because they are mentioned in the Anabasis of Arrian as living along the lower reaches of the Syrdar'ya. In the days of the Macedonian king Alexander the Great, they were famous for their mounted archers. It is possible that this tribe desintegrated after the fall of the Achaemenid empire; one of the tribes that came into being, was that of the Parni, who went south in the third century BCE and founded the Parthian empire.

  • The Sak paradray ('Sacae across the sea') were living in Ukraine. These are the nomads that the Greeks called Scythians. In (514 or) 513 BCE, king Darius launched a disastrous campaign against the Sak paradray. Herodotus gives a long description of their way of life and discerns many tribes in the neighborhood.
  •  Scythians / Sacae by Jona Lendering

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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 22:12
    Paul Nazaroff "Hunted Through Central Asia - On the run from Lenin's Secret Police"  Oxford University Press 1993, 2002. First published in 1932.

    p.87
    "...In the history of the Turki peoples such women of marked personality have played a very important part. There is not the slightest reason to cast suspicion upon the story of Herodotus about the Queen of the Massagetae, Tomyris, who beat the conqueror of Asia, the Persian Emperor Cyrus himself. Historians regard the whole story as a myth, but it fits in perfectly well with everything we know about these nomad peoples of Asia. There is no doubt, as Professor Mischenko thinks, that the Scythian tribe of Massagetae were nothing more nor less than the ancestors of the Kazakh of to-day in the Turgai Province, where the name survives in the River Massagatka and the mountain Mussagat.
    But for our great superiority in armament, who knows but that our great hero General Skobeleff would have met the fate of Cyrus. The name of Tomyris, like other Scythian names, is of Turki origin. This name, Tomyris, means "crush iron' or 'bend iron,' from temir, iron; and recalls another famous warrior out of Asia, Temir-leng, Temir the Lame, or Tamerlane, a remote descendant of his famous compatriot Tomyris. If one carefully reads Herodotus's account of the Amazons and their origin, the inevitable conclusion is that these Amazons were the wives of just the same Turki nomads whose menfolk had gone off on some military expedition to some remote district. The first syllable of their very name is a Turki word, conveying the idea of woman. In the same way his remarkable description of the Scythians, their manners and customs, does not leave any room for doubt that he was describing the ancestors of that same people which is to-day called Kazakh, and from the most remote dawn of antiquity has inhabited the steppes of Southern Russian and Western Siberia."



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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 01:41
    Originally posted by Zagros

    setImgWidth();  The Saka tribes are written in purple. they originated in the CA asia region and some of them migrated west.  Sara Mata are the most direct ancestors of Alans/Ossetians.  Pakhtuns havea  language believed to be descended from Saka.

  • The Sak haumavarg ('haoma-drinking Sacae') were subjected by Cyrus the Great. Herodotus calls them Amyrgian Scythians. Haoma was a trance inducing drink, made from fly agaric. This mushroom does not occur south of the river Amudar'ya (Oxus). Consequently, we may assume that these nomads lived in Uzbekistan. Herodotus informs us that they wore trousers and pointed caps; they fought as archers. He also mentions their use of the battle ax (which they called sagaris).

  • The Sak tigrakhaud ('Sacae with pointed hats') were defeated in 520/519 BCE by the Persian king Darius I the Great, who gave this tribe a new leader. One of the earlier leaders was killed, the other, named Skunkha, was taken captive and is visible on the relief at Behistun. (It is possible that Darius created a new tribe from several earlier tribes.) Herodotus calls the Sak tigrakhaud the Orthocorybantians ('pointed hat men'), and informs us that they lived in the same tax district as the Medes. This suggests that the Sak tigrakhaud lived on the banks of the ancient lower reaches of the Amudar'ya, which used to have a mouth in the Caspian Sea south of Krasnovodsk. The pointed hat is a kind of turban.

  • A golden comb with a Scythians in Battle,
    Late 5th - early 4th century BCE
  • The Ap Sak ('Water Sacae') are also known as the Pausikoi, as Herodotus prefers to call them. Later authors, like Arrian of Nicomedia (in his Anabasis) and Ammianus Marcellinus (in his Roman history) call them the Abian Scythians; still later, we encounter them as the Apasiaki, first east and later southwest of Lake Aral. They must be situated along the ancient lower reaches of the Amudar'ya.

  • The tribe that Herodotus calls 'Massagetes' must have been called something like Mh-Sak in Persian, which means 'Moon Sacae', but this is confusing. Ma-Sak means Moon Sacae, and it is known that the Massagetes venerated only one god, the Sun. The Massagetes were responsible for the death of the Persian king Cyrus the Great (in December 530). From Herodotus' description, it is clear that they lived along the Syrdar'ya (Jaxartes).

  • The nomad tribe known as Dah, which means 'robbers', is mentioned for the first time in the Daiva inscription of Xerxes; he must have subjected them. Herodotus calls the Dai a Persian nomad tribe (above), but they can not have lived in Persia proper, because they are mentioned in the Anabasis of Arrian as living along the lower reaches of the Syrdar'ya. In the days of the Macedonian king Alexander the Great, they were famous for their mounted archers. It is possible that this tribe desintegrated after the fall of the Achaemenid empire; one of the tribes that came into being, was that of the Parni, who went south in the third century BCE and founded the Parthian empire.

  • The Sak paradray ('Sacae across the sea') were living in Ukraine. These are the nomads that the Greeks called Scythians. In (514 or) 513 BCE, king Darius launched a disastrous campaign against the Sak paradray. Herodotus gives a long description of their way of life and discerns many tribes in the neighborhood.
  •  Scythians / Sacae by Jona Lendering

    Great Zagros!

    I don't know much about the origin of the Scythian people, though i've read quiet a lot about the relationship between Pashto [Afghani] and Saka language. Afghan scholars term the Sakai language as ancient Pashto.

    I believe the Scythians are the real ancestors of the Pashtuns/Afghans, as it is proved that Saka language is related to Pashto, that makes this claim even stronger.

     

    What do you guys think about this?

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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 00:08

    Originally posted by Akskl

    Paul Nazaroff "Hunted Through Central Asia - On the run from Lenin's Secret Police"  Oxford University Press 1993, 2002. First published in 1932.

    p.87
    "...In the history of the Turki peoples such women of marked personality have played a very important part. There is not the slightest reason to cast suspicion upon the story of Herodotus about the Queen of the Massagetae, Tomyris, who beat the conqueror of Asia, the Persian Emperor Cyrus him­self. Historians regard the whole story as a myth, but it fits in perfectly well with everything we know about these nomad peoples of Asia. There is no doubt, as Professor Mischenko thinks, that the Scythian tribe of Massagetae were nothing more nor less than the ancestors of the Kazakh of to-day in the Turgai Province, where the name survives in the River Massagatka and the mountain Mussagat.
    But for our great superiority in armament, who knows but that our great hero General Skobeleff would have met the fate of Cyrus. The name of Tomyris, like other Scythian names, is of Turki origin. This name, Tomyris, means "crush iron' or 'bend iron,' from temir, iron; and recalls another famous warrior out of Asia, Temir-leng, Temir the Lame, or Tamerlane, a remote descendant of his famous compatriot Tomyris. If one carefully reads Herodotus's account of the Amazons and their origin, the inevitable con­clusion is that these Amazons were the wives of just the same Turki nomads whose menfolk had gone off on some military expedition to some remote district. The first syllable of their very name is a Turki word, conveying the idea of woman. In the same way his remarkable description of the Scythians, their manners and customs, does not leave any room for doubt that he was describing the ancestors of that same people which is to-day called Kazakh, and from the most remote dawn of antiquity has inhabited the steppes of Southern Russian and Western Siberia."

     

    "A pan-Turkic theory has recently eminated from Turkey that seeks to find a Turkish origin for the Scythian language. The vast majority of scholars in the field disagree with such theories, and have concluded Scythian was an Iranian language."

    From: http://www.ipedia.com/ipedia/s/sc/scythia.html

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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 13:30

    Paul Nazaroff and Professor Mischenko were not Turks. They were Russians, who lived in pre-Communist Russia, and therefore were  not biased by the Soviet Russian political censorship and propaganda, which  supported only anti-Turkic position in all questionable  issues.

    Paul Nazaroff was fluent in Kazakh language since his childhood, he knew the traditional Kazakh nomadic culture very well, and he was very educated person.



    Edited by Akskl
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 17:44

    Enough about the Persian or Turkic character of Scythians. If no contribution other than this issue comes in 24 hours, I'll lock this thread...



    Edited by kotumeyil
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 17:14

    is time up?

    can we write now?

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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 18:09
    If you have any contribution other than "They are Turks!" or "No, they are Persians!" of course you can write. But hurry up, time's marching on
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 18:38
    OK friends. I'm gonna lock the thread now. If you really think that you can add something different than the total 13 pages about Scythians, PM me so I'll unlock it. If not, there are many other subjects about Steppes...
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