Scythians

I never saw any proofs that Scythians were Iranian speaking peoples.

Most probably they were Turkic speaking nomads. Anna Comnena wrote that Pechenegs (Turkic speaking nomads) and Scythians had the same language.

http://real-alania.narod.ru/alanialand/history/L1/3skif.htm

DNA analysis comparison of the Scythian tombs' women warriors proved that their direct descendants today are Kazakhs:

 

Meiramgul, die kleine Amazone

Identische DNA-Strukturen

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/3/0,1872,2132483,00.html

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/5/0,1872,2133061,00.html

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/16/0,1872,2133072,00.html

 

  

   

 

Edited by Akskl

THE ALEXIAD OF ANNA COMNENA

BOOK VIII.

War with the Scyths (1091) : Victory at Levunium (29 April 1091) : Plots against the Emperor

...The Romans in their dread of the countless [204] Scythians and their horrible covered wagons which they used as walls, sent up one cry for mercy to the Lord of All and then, letting their steeds go, dashed at full speed into battle with the Scythians, the Emperor galloping in front of them all. The Roman line was crescent-shaped and at the same instant as if at a signal the whole army of the Comans rushed forward too, so a distinguished chieftain of the Scythians, foreseeing the issue of events, secured his safety in advance, and taking a few men with him went over to the Comans as they spoke the same language...

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/AnnaComnena-Alexiad08 .html

The Comans are Kipchaks (not Pechenegs, sorry) - anyway a Turkic speaking tribe (now part of modern Kazakhs and some close to Kazakhs peoples). The Byzantine writer Anna Comine calls Scythians here the Pechenegs - also a Turkic speaking Steppe nomadic tribe. A heard somewhere that they were somehow related to Cangly (Kangly) who are also a part of modern Kazakhs today. 


Edited by Akskl

[QUOTE=Akskl]

I never saw any proofs that Scythians were Iranian speaking peoples.

Most probably they were Turkic speaking nomads. Anna Comnena wrote that Pechenegs (Turkic speaking nomads) and Scythians had the same language.

http://real-alania.narod.ru/alanialand/history/L1/3skif.htm

DNA analysis comparison of the Scythian tombs' women warriors proved that their direct descendants today are Kazakhs:

 

Meiramgul, die kleine Amazone

Identische DNA-Strukturen

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/3/0,1872,2132483,00.html

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/5/0,1872,2133061,00.html

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/16/0,1872,2133072,00.html

 

   [/QUotre]

Anna Kommena uses the term 'Skythians' to refer to the Pechneg (who also spoke a Turkish language).   Such words of the Skythian, Royal Skythian, Magasattae etc as are known are of Iranian roots.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_amazon/clues.html

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_amazon/about.html (video of the research)

http://www.archaeology.org/9701/abstracts/sarmatians.html 

And a little bit info about them from http://www.indianz.com/board/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9068&#19 1522;

Amazon's warrior women or ancient myth?
Did Amazon warrior women, the Antiope and Hippolyte belong to an extinct matriarchal warrior society? Or were they simply fictional characters depicted in ancient Greek mythology?
Amazons - Real Warrior Women or Ancient Myth?

Stories of beautiful and bloodthirsty female warrior women thundering across arid battlefields have been told, re-told and speculated over for thousands of years and by many cultures. Greek myths are filled with tales of the Amazons and their exploits, love affairs and battles with Olympian gods like Zeus, Ares and Hera. Amazon warriors fought and died in the Trojan war. Homer and Hippocrates speculated over or wrote of these fierce fighting women, as did Greek historian Herodotus. The West African kingdom of Dahomey employed a legion of so-called Amazons who conquered cities for King Agaja during the 1600s. Spanish adventurer, Francisco de Orellana, is said to have named South Americas greatest river, the Amazon, after a fierce tribe of warrior women he encountered along its banks.

Greek mythology describes the Amazons as descendants of the god of war, Ares, and the sea nymph, Harmonia. They worshipped Artemis, goddess of the hunt and exactly where the Amazons territory was has always been disputed. Herodotus believed they may have occupied the sweeping steppes of Southern Russia. Other stories claim they lived in Thrace or along the lower Caucasus Mountains in northern Albania. The Thermodon River, in Asia Minor, known today as the coast of Turkey, seems to be the most frequently mentioned territory of the Amazons.

Amazon society was stringently matriarchal. Males were of no use other than for mating purposes and as slaves, doing work that was traditionally performed by women. Mens outer extremities were often mutilated to prevent them taking up arms against their captors or escaping. Male babies were either given away at birth to neighbouring tribes or killed.

From an early age Amazons were trained in the arts of war. Some myths and stories say that during adolescence a young Amazons right breast would be cauterised or entirely removed by her mother so that once the girl reached adulthood she could wield bows and throw javelins more accurately. Experts disagree, claiming that the Amazons would not have had the medical know how to prevent massive haemorrhage or infection if such drastic mutilations actually occurred.

The Amazons were said to be the first humans to tame and ride horses. They were fearless and expert warriors, on horseback or as foot soldiers, and the Greeks fiercest enemies. They dedicated themselves to endless hours of training in the art of combat, their favored weapons, bows, spears and doubled-sided battle axes.

One of the most enduring Greek Amazon myths tells of King Eurytheseus dispatching Hercules to steal Queen Hippolytes golden girdle, a gift from Ares. Rather than attacking the army standing outside their city, the Amazons showed curiosity and welcomed them. Hippolyte and Hercules fell in love. Jealous goddess Juno spread lies about the Greeks ulterior motive to kidnap the Amazon queen and hold her for ransom. A bloody battle ensued and there were great losses on both sides, Hercules eventually victorious and returning to Greece with Hippolytes girdle.

Yet despite such tales and myths very little concrete archaeological evidence has ever been unearthed to prove that a race of Amazons actually existed. Most stories about them have been dismissed as pure conjecture or wishful thinking, including Herodotuss writings of Amazons in Russia and their possible connection with the ancient Scythian race. Recent excavations by Russian archaeologists, however, have produced new evidence that suggests Herodotus may have been right.

The Scythians were a race of mounted nomadic warriors whose early origins are still a mystery and who lived in Central Asia around the 7-8th centuries BC. Their generals were said to be more cunning military tacticians than Genghis Khan, who, centuries later conquered half the world. Yet the Scythians were illiterate, they left no language and history, other than their large round burial mounds, or kurgans, plundered ruins that are found all over the Russian steppes. Russian archaeologists have found some kurgans that are still intact, a few of them containing the remains of what they believe were Scythian royalty or aristocrats. These tombs also contained a breathtaking array of golden artefacts: jewellery, chalices, weapons, breastplates and other finely crafted masterpieces depicting Scythian life.

Herodotus wrote of the Scythians as being an extremely barbaric and bloodthirsty race,skinning and beheading slain adversaries and shaping their skulls into drinking cups. Funerals were highly ceremonial and even more blood-drenched. A fallen warriors wife and entire household were often killed and placed inside the kurgan to serve in the afterlife. Dozens of the finest horses were sacrificed and staked upright around the outside of the burial mound.

New burial mounds recently opened outside the town of Pokrovka contained the remains of women, some thought to be of great station. They were buried in full battle dress and with a assortment of weapons and other items of war lying beside them. One young womans leg bones were significantly bowed suggesting she spent most of her life on horseback. Another skeleton had an arrowhead lodged in the upper chest, indicating she might have died in battle.

This startling evidence seems to confirm Herodotuss early theories that certain cultures held women in higher esteem, some even riding alongside men into battle. Other mysterious burial sites have also been recently unearthed in China dating back 2000 years or more, the remains and artifacts suggesting that within other extinct cultures women may have held powerful social and perhaps even military positions as well. Whether any of these long-dead women found in the Pokrovka kurgans or in other recent digs could actually be the mythical Amazons of Greek legend has yet to be confirmed - or may never be proven. For the foreseeable future, research and speculation continues.

It's not that classical authors "didn't bother to find out".  In fact it's almost the opposite, they deliberately searched out classical names for regions etc to show how well read they were.  Just one of those cultural differences that we have to understand when using older sources (or those from other countries)

whereas no modern Iranian peoples have such traditions or their remnants today:

That's untrue.

This is a depiction of what the Romans called a "Parthian Shot", the illustration is that of a Parthian.  The Parthians were the latest Iranian nomads from what is now called Central Asia to settle into Iran, they disposed of the Seleucid dynasty. 800 years before them the Medes and the Persians invaded the Iranian plateau from Central Asia, both of whom were renowned as horse riding nomad archers.

The Saka tribes, well for a start all of them have Iranian derived names.  The pointed hat Sakas were allies of the Persians and Medes after some wars and were the only other tribe allowed to wear their swords and weaponry at Persepolis along with the Medes and Persians, it is really impossible that they were Turks.  In Scythian mounds in the Altai there have been found carpets from Persepolis, so it would seem that the Saka of antiquity were indeed in touch with the Iranians of the plateau.

As for your original statement:

I doubt the garb has changed much since two thousand years ago.

And DNA in the case of Central Asia is a very dubious issue, since we know how much assimilation and change has occured there.  A very good example is modern Turkey, in the West of the country everyone is a Turk, but their DNA has more in common with Greeks than anyone else.

Also if the Scythians were Turks howcome the kingdoms of Bactria and Sogdiana were Iranian speaking?  Afterall, they absorbed much of the local Scythian populations when Alexander defeated them and there was no mention of Turks in written documents of that region. Until 4-500 years later.

Here is what the Turk emmisaries at the courts of Soghdiana looked like:

And do not forget Ossetian Alons, they are the closest surviving kin of Sarmatians according to all serious historians.

A good supportive example of what I said is the case of the Tokharians, who were definately an Indo-European people, we know this from their surviving texts.  Their mummies resemble Europid Caucasoids, but the people who live there now (mainly Uigars) show distinct and very prominent Mongoloid features as well as the features such as brown and somtimes red hair inherited from the Tokharians.

If you check the mtDNA of the Turkic Uighars who live there now, I think it is safe to presume that many will have the same mtDNA as Tokharian mummies, if there have been any female ones found.

This logic is also applicable to modern Kazakhs and ancient Scythians.

Edited by Zagros

I am sure that modern Iranians or, say, Ossetians have totally different DNA than that of the ancient Amazon warrior woman.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka

...Among others, modern Kazakhs (especially the branch known as "Saks") claim descent from the Sakas. The Sakha people of Siberia (see Yakuts) also claim descent from a remnent of the earlier Saka people. Additionally, although the evidence is dated and the technology utilized still in its infancy, DNA analysis conducted at the Novosibirsk Institute of Cytology and Genetics has found Kazakhs and Altai people to be the nearest relatives among competing Mongol-Turkic clans of a Scythian from the Pazyryk burial in Siberia.

The most notable Saka burial to date, whose occupant is referred to as the "Golden Man", was found in Kazakhstan. The silver dish found with the "Golden Man" is of a type common to other Germanic finds and is inscribed with a form of runic writing related to that found in Germanic and Scandinavian runic writing...

Encyclopaedia  NationMaster - about Sarmatians in "Recent research":

...In a recent excavation of Samarian sites by Dr. Jeannine Davis-Kimball, a Ph.D. in archaeology from the University of California, a tomb was found in which female warriors were buried thus lending some credence to the myths about the Amazons. Following the excavation in 2003 by Dr. Davis-Kimball, she and Dr. Joachim Burger compared the genetic evidence from the site with the nomadic Kazakhs in Mongolia and have found a striking genetic link.
This finding was verified later by the University of Cambridge....


---
http://www.thirteen.org/pressroom/release.php?get=1272

JEANNINE DAVIS-KIMBALL
Archaeologist

...After raising six children and working as a nurse and a cattle rancher, Dr. Jeannine Davis Kimball received a Ph.D. in archaeology from the University of California. She soon became fascinated with the nomads of the Eurasian steppes, spending decades in the field unearthing the remains of the Sarmatians, herders who lived on the steppes in the fourth to second centuries B.C. Finding female skeletons buried with weapons and other articles of war, Davis-Kimball hypothesized that the Sarmatians may have inspired the ancient legend of the Amazons. In Mongolia, she found remnants of this ancient culture among the nomads presently living in the region, the Kazakhs. In 2003, working with geneticist Dr. Joachim Burger, she discovered a genetic link between the Kazakhs and the ancient Sarmatians...

End of quote

So, we see the direct genetic relation between modern Kazakhs and ancient Sarmatians, who were ostensibly "Iranian speakers".

The Parthian Empire was multilingual and it was created by the pastoralist nomadic tribe of Parni (see David Christian "A History of Russia, Central Asia and Mongolia" v.1, Blackwell Publishers, pp.175-179) who invaded there from north and became the Parthian ruling class. And most probably they were Turkic speaking nomads like Hsing-nu and/or Huns, Toba Turks, Shatuo Turks, etc., who were conquering then all the Eurasian territories surrounding the Great Steppe (including Western Europe and Northern China) which geographically is located approximately between the Danube river and the Great Wall of China.
    



Edited by Akskl

Originally posted by Socrates  Nothing surprises me from the Turks on this forum:......

You have to admire the tenacity that digs out all these 'references' and extracts the 'facts'.   A lot of work....

Originally posted by Akskl Why don't you do the same? It is very easy - just use google.

That, unfortunately, is part of the problem.  The internet contains vast amounts of useful information, unfortunately it contains even more rubbish.  Without peer checked references etc it is very difficult to know what are the trustworthy bits and what has been put there by the 'fringe elements'. 

One of the webs freatest strengths is that there are are numbers of old, out of copywrite, works being loaded up on it.  These can be extreemly valuable, though again if you are not aware of later works and current knowlege it is very easy to be misled.

I am impressed, though by those like yourself that are reading and learning, this can only be good.  Whenever I think that you are mistaken, I will do my best to explain why, and hope that we can help you expand your knowledge.
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