Kogoryo, was it chinese

Originally posted by Gubook Janggoon That say things like "Gao Gou Li Ren Bin Fei Chao Xian Ren" of "The people of Goguryeo don't have any relation to Koreans"

the title says Koguryo-people are absolutely not Choson people

and somewhere in that text it says Koguryo has its roots in Shang dynasty

this is too stupid to even get angry

The big title says Korean History Festival.

Some of the smaller script is hard to read.  :l 

I imagine that this is run by extremist though, because of the fact that they're adding Gando into the map of Korea although there might be a reason for this.  :l

The one distinction that I'm going to draw between your picture and mine is that.

1.  Your picture depicts a private organization.  A group of tourists who hold a particular point of view.

2.  My picture depicts a sign at/or describing one of the Goguryeo sites set up by the PRC.

Actually oodog, that extra chunk of land belonged to the Chosun dyansty... From what I have read the Japanese ceded it to China when they annexed Korea in 1910.

Koguryo lands were more extensive than the one shown on the map, they at their height included some of Mongolia.

As I recall it, the Gando/Gendo conflict was resolved as part of Qing only after in 1909 Japan and Qing signed the Gando treatise, giving Japan the right to construct railways in return.  And in that treatise, Choson was excluded.   

Before that, there were like several attempts to define the boundaries between those two countries.  I think the first one, or one of the first was this stella called Mokguk (��к��) that was found in 1712 after an incident where 5 chinese were killed around the region.  I don't remember how the geographical boundaries were like around that time, so I won't make claims now.

So after the Japanese withdrawal, NK and China had another agreement, w/o SKn consent, in 1962, ����ܫͣ��� (Whatever that is), setting the boundaries between the two countries, that gave Gando to China.  But even that treatise is not registered to the UN.

My point is that the problem is more complicated that "this is Korean" or "this is Chinese," because like, 4 countries are all involved in this issue and they all made things worse. 

So yeah, don't just go like "hey, it's chinese because it's our land now."

It's true that Koreans immigrated to that region, especially after Japanese colonization, becaues of land being fertile and it being Qing dynasty's birth ground, but that's not the whole story.

The same way some Chinese media and government tries to make a fuss about this Koguryo being Chinese ethnic minority.

I agree with your point,demon,it's more complicated than "this is ours"

or "this is yours". In fact, I can offer more detailed historical background

infromation about the Gando problem to you,but sadly,all of them are in

Chinese language.I think you can do the same thing too.  We all tend to

believe the facts provided by our own side.

You're a nice guy.I'm not here to quarrel with you for Gando or Goguryo

But when one of your neighbors always claim in newspaper one room of

your house was his,you will feel uncomfortable too.

You do not know China. Our media seldom make fuss about Kogryo,partly

because  they are not aware of the importance of koguryo,partly because

our government banned such reports. The government leaders did not wish

unpleasant thing appear between the media community of the two countries.

BTW��I have read The Record of Three Kingdoms through the link you

provided , I even bought one book. If I'm here to argue now, I can quote

some content of the book to sustain my viewpoint But I'm not here to

quarrel.  The best policy for me at present is to keep silence.  

last time it was because China's stance changed from 'Korean history' to 'both Chinese and Korean history'

this time because China's stance changed from "both Chinese and Korean history" to "Chinese history and not Korean"

'course, being Chinese, you couldn't know that, since you guys don't care about Korguryo as much as we do..

At least I know the backgroud of the painting in my photo is one of the frestos of Goguryeo period.  On the other hand, I don't think the Yanbian ("Gando" as the Korean call the region) issue has nothing to do with the Goguryo argument. Both on the web and in my conversation with some Korean when I was in SK, I notice some Korean radical  nationalist believe in this logic -- Goguryeo ruled Yanbian (Gando) for almost a millennium. Korea is the rightful successor of Goguryeo. So those lands should be Korea's proper possession.

I know this is only a few extremist's thought. But it is more offensive and dangerous than any academic argument on Goguryeo's ownership.

First, there is no broadly accepted paradigm on judging the ownership of  a vanished civilization like Goguryeo. Even in the historian circle,  no consensus has been made yet. Under such circumstance, the Chinese surely have the right to express their own opinion on Goguryeo history.

In view of pragmatism, of course the Chinese should have better keep silent on the Gogueryeo matter, because whom Goguryo history belongs to means so much to the Korean and so little to Chinese. But should a genuine intellatual give up his academic position only because another nation's collective amour-propre should be take care of? If you ask me, I would say "no". for a historian, that is a matter of moral integrity . I reckon this is the reason why many Chinese scholars disagree their Korean counterpart's view on Goguryo.  I would like to re-paste one of my post in another thread that initiated by you.

Interestingly, the very reason that Goguryeo is thought to be Chinese in China is almost the same with that it is thought to be Korean in Korea. Let��s check it out:

 l         Territory, a part of Goguryeo Kingdom today is ruled by PRC while the other part by NK.

l         Capital, the capital of Goguryeo originally was located in Jilin Province, China, but it was moved to Pyongyang  later.

l         People, after the collapse of the Goguryeo Kingdom, the conqueror, Tang Dynasty forced most of its people to reinhabit in Chinese hinterland, while the rest took refugees in Shilla (right spelling?). Thus, both Chinese and Korean are entitled to claim kindred of the Goguryeo people.

l         Culture, you could hardly tell the Korean culture from Chinese culture in that period. Perhaps the right description is that Goguryeo belonged to the East Asian Confucius Cultural Rim.

The root of Goguryeo is so profoundly mixed between China and Korea that actually you are always justified no matter you declared it Chinese or Korean. What really matters is the position you are at.