China is Multiracial and Chinggis is a Chinese Hero, Period!

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival Tobodai, my apologies, i misunderstood your post. And its GENIUS, not GENIOUS, you genius .

 

LOL

To Chono,

Thanks for replying to my message.
I have some disagreements with you here.
1. China never existed during the 13th century, it was composed of the kingdoms of: Jin, Xixia, Song, Nanchao or Dali, Tibet, and Kara Khitai. Many people are inclined to
brand the Song as the true Chinese, yet they speak a totally different language than mandarin. The Han people from the Qin dynasty onwards till the Qing period spoke Hakka. Mandarin, the official language of the PRC was begun during the reign of Kangxi to integrate all the ethnicities that comprise modern day china.
2. The kingdoms above have both their unique language
both spoken and in writing.
3. The extent of the kingdoms mentioned above do not by themselves represent the true borders of the PRC as we know it today.
4. Genghis set the stage for the eventual conquest and integration of the states above into one super state whose borders reflect the present borders of the PRC.
5. Genghis never initially had motives for conquest and enslavement of states that had no conflict with him. Even to the hated Jin, he allowed the Jin emperor to keep a sizeable portion of the Jin empire with a title of "King of Jin". What Genghis had in mind was a series of confederacies with the mongols in the lead . This idea was only ruined when the people of the confederacies decided to oppose and challenge Genghis.

This is why I still believe the PRC has the right to declare Genghis a national hero.

r's
Clive

First, even if what you wrote were true they don't present any plausible reason to make CK a chinese national hero. But even in these points you're absolutely wrong.

1. China existed very well in the 13th century. The dynasties Jin and Sung both cultivated chinese culture and traditions, the biggest portions of the population were chinese. Although the jurchens and kitans who served Jin should be qualified as chinese, because the dynasty itself represented itself chinese, they still weren't completely so. Jurchens kept on nomadicizing in Manchjuria after the fall of Jin and kitans tried to revive their state Liao, apart from China or mongols, but failed and were integrated into mongols. Xixia had nothing chinese about it. Kara Kitai was a buddhist - muslim state built by mongol-speaking nomadic kitans, what have the chinese to do with that? Tibet is even today not fully chinese, 50 years after the military occupation.

2. The so called unique languages were in fact chinese.

3. "True extent" of PRC's borders is irrelevant to this matter.

4. CK's state included the territories of today's Mongolia proper, Xinjiang and Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan. PRC's got nothing to do with anything.

5. No one is in position to speak about CK's true intentions. Jin was left in peace for some time due to the campaign in the west.

You don't seem to know anything about CK or mongols' history. So get back to it when you put some knowledge in your head. Distorting well known facts might please PRC but it gives others less reasons to respect you.

Edited by Chono

Neither Tibet nor the lands ruled by the Qara-Khitai were Chinese during the 12th-13th centuries.

Chono
May I ask you another question?
How many Mongols live today in the MPR vs. PRC?
Who is more fluent in the Mongol script, you Khalkhas or
the Chahars, tumaats, Kharachins, Horcins, of the PRC?


my best regards
Clive

Yet he was always a Mongol by language, culture, religion and lifestyle. He didn't admire Chinese culture on the level his grandson Khubilai did, he didn't even conquer a large part of China.

Originally posted by cliveersknell Chono May I ask you another question? How many Mongols live today in the MPR vs. PRC? Who is more fluent in the Mongol script, you Khalkhas or the Chahars, tumaats, Kharachins, Horcins, of the PRC? my best regards Clive

You just don't know anything do you. Harchins and horchins don't even speak mongolian anymore. We are equally fluent in classical script. Both the cyrillic and classical scripts are egually important as cultural heritage for mongolian language. But of course classical script is our own and we hold it in better esteem. If you take a mongolian bank note, you won't see a single cyrillic letter, as an example. If your wife is really inner mongolian you should've known that chahars are lately largely adopting khalkha speech, as it's more convenient and modern. And to your information, there's no MPR anymore. And the fact that many mongols are living under PRC rule and have to put up with b-s such as you're bringing up is historically unfair. Now, what does all this have to do with CK? You could've been more coherent in distorting the facts hehe.

Hi Chono
Thanks for your replies, I did learn a lot from you , and thank you very much for sharing what you have with me.
I just want to point out some things that need further discussion:
a. There are more than 6 million mongols in China , they are
Barguts, Chahars, Tumaats, Harchins, Horcins, even some Khalkhas , vs only 2.8 million in the republic of mongolia.
b. Many teachers from the Republic of Mongolia are coming to China to learn the real Mongol language and script.
c. Like it or not, China today, is the Republic of Mongolia's largest trading partner. More than 300,000 of your people are working in China.The republic of mongolia relies more on China's ports to ship their goods and exports.
d. The greatest Morin Khuur players are from the PRC
like Professor Chi Bulico,who also is a professor of Morin
Khuur in your state university.
e. The Republic of Mongolia has repeatedly asked China permission to join the Shanghai 5. China is preparing something much better for the republic of mongolia.
f. The Khalkhas were the weakest of all mongol tribes
and they were the ones who brought Kangxi and the Manchus into Mongolia because they could not stand up to Galdan, who is the Khan of the Oirads.

g. To be honest with you you Khalkhas are furthest from
Genghis' lineage.
The last two great Khans of the Mongol nation were
Chahar - Dayan Khan
Tumaat = Altan Khan

I suggest as a friend, that you wake up to the reality around you and not live in your fool's paradise of your own creation.

r's
Clive

Ahh maaan, you have to turn this into talks about modern mongols? What does any of this PRC propagandaistic b-s have to do with CK? What Ochirbat said was very correct, one of CK's lineages unified China, others unified kypchaks, russians, persians, you name it. But he himself unified mongols. Unifying china was just a fatcual slavery of the han-chinese anyway, if that's so glorious why don't you invite Mr. Bush over to do the same? He'll manage it with Taiwan and Siberia and all the rest no?

1. The number of mongols living in PRC is irrelevant. Half of them are completely sinified anyway, they just register as a minority for the benefits.

2. What teachers? What real mongol language? You've been smoking marijuana or something? The cultural cooperation that's going on between us concerns only us, not you.

3. 300 000 is the number of annual visits from Mongolia to PRC. You think any mongolian really would wanna go work in China? On the contrary, thousands of inner mongolians make their living by translating for visitors from Mongolia. Anywhere in UB or on the millenium road, nowadays you see k's of chinese working for dirt cheap wages for mongolian construction companies. As for China being the largest trade partner, so is it for Australia, so what? Who would be stupid enough not to wanna benefit from a booming economy with the cheapest labor force and produce right under your nose? You?

4. Hey look, the greatest Morin Khuur player prefers living and working in Mongolia. And that's where his heritage will go on. It's logical, he ain't no chinese, he's a mongol.

5. It is absolute bullcrap that we would ever wanna join a crappy organization as S5. In fact, PRC and Russia have exercized big pressure on Mongolia to join it. It was even one of russian conditions for dropping the big dept. And what are those plans you're talking about? Who are you to know this kind of PRC's plans? Jiang Zeming's illegitimate son? Where does one get this kind of twisted information anyway? Probably some chinese military newspapers right?

6. And what's this ranting about khalkha being weak? I bet all the minorities in China and former USSR wished they were as "weak" as us. Why not, if being so weak, we could afford sending troops to ROC and PRC territory twice in the last century. Oh wait, in 1945 we've been freeing the chinese from japanese, as a thank we get "plans"?

7. What do you know about us mongols anyway? There was not a single great khan since M�ngke. Your hiding behind Batmunkh's and Altan's backs is pathetic. They were good khans doing better job than most and they don't deserve having anything to do with the likes of you. And how do you think khalkhas originated in the first place? Batmunkh Dayn Khan gave his eldest son Gersenz a fief and you get khalkhas. All khalkha khans are his descendants.

Comparing us to macedonians is just plain dumb. Where's their religion, or language or culture? If they didn't manage to keep those it's their problem. We have a civilization of our own going on and it has nothing to do with the chinese.

Now this, PRC propaganda is just propaganda and no one half way educated is gonna buy it.  Your chauvinist ranting is comparable to a mosquito bite on my butt. It itches, I scratch it. I propose the moderators to close this retarded thread now.

Ok... what are we arguing about?

Are we asking "Can the PRC say Ghengis Khan is their hero?"
No, it can't.

Can the USA say "The Roman Empire is our hero!"

No, they can't.

But Americans can admire Alexander, Americans can admire the Roman Empire, Americans can accept Jesus as their savoir.

Just as someone Chinese can admire Ghengis Khan and his progeny.

I'm just a bit fuzzed on that point. I don't think a government should make claims like that, but I think it's perfectly fine for people living in that society to say such things.

 

So is the question "The PRC declare Ghengis their hero!" ? If so, I disagree. Countries don't need to do stuff like that.

Is the question "Can Chinese admire Ghengis Khan, who wasn't Chinese?" I say yes, yes they can.

 

Can the average white American tell Mongolians and Chinese apart?

Edited by TMPikachu