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What if Cleopatra won the Battle of Actium?

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  Quote meninwhite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What if Cleopatra won the Battle of Actium?
    Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 16:46
If Anthony and Cleopatra defeated Octavian at Actiem and took control of Rome and the Empire became Egyptian and they conquerd Parthia.What if thye discoved China,Korea and Japan would they try to Conquer them?
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  Quote Lannes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 17:21

Er...

Anyway, I'll move this to Historical Amusement...

τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 20:59
Originally posted by meninwhite

If Anthony and Cleopatra defeated Octavian at Actiem and took control of Rome and the Empire became Egyptian and they conquerd Parthia.What if thye discoved China,Korea and Japan would they try to Conquer them?


By the time of the Battle of Actium, the Romans had yet really to figure out how to defeat the Parthians, so conquest of them would have been a fantasy. The west already knew about the east and traded with them occasionally, so there would have been no "discovery". Even if they had been meeting for the first time, why would you try to conquer lands thousands of miles away from your capital? Administration of these lands would have been impossible. Besides, eastern development was at least equal of Rome's, perhaps even more advanced. The Chinese would have defeated any Roman force.

The Roman Empire would not become Egyptian. The Ptolemies were a Hellenistic dynasty, so if anything, the Empire would have taken Greek characteristics.
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  Quote meninwhite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 22:35

If they had conquered all of India and Southeast Asia how would they reacte to seeing The Pacific Ocean?

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2005 at 23:35
Originally posted by meninwhite

If they had conquered all of India and Southeast Asia how would they reacte to seeing The Pacific Ocean?



I would imagine it would go something like this...

Marc Antony - Hark! Behold yon briny deep! 'Tis a such an ocean that is vast and harmonious!

Cleopatra - Indeed! Ocean! The Nile is made humble by thine exalted majesty!

Marc Antony - My heart plays a descant of wonder!

Cleopatra - Enough! My loins invite thee that I may manipulate thy political arbitration!



Seriously though, I would imagine that they would be awed. However, seeing the Pacific is hardly a satisfactory reward for marching thousands of miles and losing thousands of men.
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  Quote meninwhite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 00:14

What would they do if they reached Japan,Would they try to establish trade or present Egyptian and Greek ways to them?

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 00:29
I doubt the Japanese would ever accept Greek culture when they already have Chinese culture just next door.
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  Quote meninwhite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 00:41
I mean would Cleoptra try to force it?
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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 03:10
She, or any of the Ptolemies after the wars of the diadochi for that matter, did not really care much about the spreading of Greek culture. They were content with Egypt. The immediate area around Egypt barely felt the Hellenistic culture. Sooooo, no she would probably just take advantage of the luxuries that China offered... if it was conquered.
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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 03:35

 I think noone lucky in the batlles the best allwayays win octavian better than mark antony.

antony wasn't great warior he never had a chance against octavian.

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 23:47
Actually Marc Antony was an excellent general, but was known to cause instability where ever he went. In other words, people found him annoying. Julius Ceasar was known to be frequently annoyed by him. The civil war between Octavian and Antony could have gone either way.

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 02:17
I just did Actium 3 days ago at uni, so I can speak on this with quite fresh knowledge. Basically Antony SHOULD have won at Actium and he     SHOULD have won the civil war. Antony had by far the richer, more sophisticated, better populated, more adcanced and stronger half of the Roman world. Also, he definitely was a very capable commander (20 years older than Octavian, with 20 years more experience in warfare), which is what makes it so mind boggling that he would force a naval engagement rather than coax his enemies into fighting one on land.

Historians are of two minds as to what Antony actually wanted. Sadly we are left with an extremely biased account of him due to Octavian going into over-kill with his anti-Antony propraganda (and we all know who writes history ). But basically historians say that either Antony wanted the whole Roman world as his own, or that he was an individual heavily charmed by Hellenistic culture who was only interested in the East and desired a joint monarchy between himself and Kleopatra, with their capital being Alexandria (a city which made the Rome of the time look rather quiant).

Also Belisarius is quite right, Cleo was an Hellenic Queen and the Empire would more likely become more heavily influenced by Hellenism.

As to marching into Asia, a few punitive expeditions against Parthia are pretty likely, but any major conquests are unlikely. Going further east than Parthia was an impossibility IMO.
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  Quote meninwhite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 02:30
It turrns out Anthony wanted the Roman empire under his rule and to influnce in with Hellenism and then campaingn agaisnt Parthia I mean they might go father.
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  Quote meninwhite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 02:48

Originally posted by Belisarius

Originally posted by meninwhite

If Anthony and Cleopatra defeated Octavian at Actiem and took control of Rome and the Empire became Egyptian and they conquerd Parthia.What if thye discoved China,Korea and Japan would they try to Conquer them?


By the time of the Battle of Actium, the Romans had yet really to figure out how to defeat the Parthians, so conquest of them would have been a fantasy. The west already knew about the east and traded with them occasionally, so there would have been no "discovery". Even if they had been meeting for the first time, why would you try to conquer lands thousands of miles away from your capital? Administration of these lands would have been impossible. Besides, eastern development was at least equal of Rome's, perhaps even more advanced. The Chinese would have defeated any Roman force.

The Roman Empire would not become Egyptian. The Ptolemies were a Hellenistic dynasty, so if anything, the Empire would have taken Greek characteristics.

 

 

Hey The Brtish Empire did!

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  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 03:34

where is his victorious he defeated in the persian campaign

He was a great lover not a leader

if he    military genius why he was defeat in actium

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 03:45
Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

where is his victorious he defeated in the persian campaign

He was a great lover not a leader

if he    military genius why he was defeat in actium



Well that is according to what has come down to us from Octavian, who took every opportunity he could to slander Antony as being under the insidious influence of this Hellenic Queen.

In actual fact Antony proved to be a fairly good administrator, he in particular anited the various Kingdoms in Asia Minor by setting up a client-patron system between himself and them. In this way he ensured their loyalty, that they kept peace with eachother, that they provide troops and that the local territories remained loyal. He also did manage to adapt himself to Eastern warfare, managing to capture greater Armenia which he declared the property of one of his children by Cleo (much to the consternation of the men in Rome).

He was an inexperienced and capable military commander, but why he allowed disasters like Actium and the invasion of Parthia to befall him leaves me a little stumped. The only thing our historical sources can attribute to him is his ever increasing drinking, his increasing infatuation with Cleo and the fact that as time went by he became more Hellenized and more inclined to pretend to be a god rather than remain a traditional pragmatic Roman commander.
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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 12:53
Originally posted by meninwhite

Hey The Brtish Empire did!



The British Empire was 1800 years later, with 1800 years of better technology, faster ships, and vastly improved ways to communicate. I do not think the British Empire would be a good example.


Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter

where is his victorious he defeated in the persian campaign

He was a great lover not a leader

if he    military genius why he was defeat in actium



You seem not to realize that Actium and the Persian campaign were not Antony's only military ventures. He served under Julius Ceasar in Gaul and was instrumental in his victory there.

He was not a military genius. We only say that he was an excellent general.

Antony lost the Battle of Actium because he was not naval commander, but a field general. At sea, he was competent at best.

As I have said before, by the time of the Second Triumvirate, the Romans were still stumped on how to beat the Parthians who fought in a way completely alien to them. I doubt even Ceasar could have beaten the Parthians with the current knowledge they had.


Edited by Belisarius
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 16:24
In my opinion if Antonius won at Actium the civil war would have been continued. Antonius was a better soldier than Octavian who wasnt a soldier at all but Romans wouldnt accept hellenic queen and her influence on the republic. Sooner of later in Italy, Gaul, Africa or Spain someone else would raise an army and lead it against Antonius. And Antonius definatelly didnt have the luck of Caesar nor had his skills. Actually I belive that most of the senators would leave Rome before Antonius arrived there, being scared of Antonius and new proscriptions. It was impossible to rule Rome without being accepted by Roman elites and they would never accept Antonius and his hellenic queen. Even if he subdued Rome it would be only matter of time when someone would assasinate him, just like Caesar was assasinated. Maybe Antonius was a better soldier than Octavian but Octavian was much better politician than Antonius. In political sence of this word Octavian was a heir of Caesar while Antonius wasnt. Altough the best people of Rome were already murdered during proscriptions of the second triumvirate, there still were some able politicians and generals who could overthrown Antonius.

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  Quote Rome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 17:13
The Chinese would have defeated any Roman force! (Belisarius wrote the first sentence) Belisarius how can you say something like this. Who do you think you are the master of military history or what! Do you even know the type of helmet the Roman army gave to the Legionaries in the Late Republic? Do you know the organization of the first cohort in a Legion in the Late Republic? Do you even know the types of spears the Auxiliaries used in the Late Republic? Do you know anything about the Roman army in the Late Republic with out researching it on the internet like a cheater? 

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 19:53
Well that's rude. Is anyone else getting the impression that Rome is just a little bit close-minded? Sir, I realize that you must be an avid fan of Roman history, believe me I am too, but I really think you are overreacting.

I say again, the Chinese would have defeated any Roman force sent against them at this time. The Chinese were at a technological level far ahead of Rome by the Late Republic. The Chinese were making wide use of the crossbow when the Romans were still using slings and hand-proprelled projectiles as their main missile weapons. The Chinese ruled an empire that stretched from the Korean peninsula to the Himalayas when the Romans were still struggling to conquer the Italian peninsula. The entire standing Roman army at the time of the Late Republic was at about 350,000 men. The Chinese had about a million defending their capital alone. The eastern Roman empire grew rich because of trade with the east. China was where most of this trade originated.

That said, Antony will not be sending the entire Roman army in this eastern expedition. To do so would leave the empire undefended. He would be sending a group of legions, a fraction of the Roman armed forces. Would this army be sufficient to conquer an entire empire, defended by an army of well-trained, well-equipped men numbering in the millions, with the vast resources of China behind them?

The historical argument finished, you proceeded to insult my intelligence and my integrity. I do not presume to be the master of military history. I have always endeavored to make the most neutral and logical comments possible. If there is anyone reading this believes otherwise, plese make yourself known. It seems that you are suggesting that you are the master of military history. You call me a cheater when it comes to research. I have not spent hours of my life reading scores of books with pages numbering in the hundreds for someone to tell me that my history knowledge comes from the internet.

I would like an apology and we can forget this little scuffle ever happened. Then we can return to discussing this topic without any more outbursts.


Edited by Belisarius
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