July 25th, 1461- Conquest of Trebizond

Originally posted by Sikander Does anyone knows what kind of army the Trapezuntines had? I gess they were much influenced by their turkish neighbours, but I would like to know what kind of clothes they wore, what kind of militaria, weapons, etc. Sikander

I said something about this above:

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Has anyone ever read about what the Trapezuntine  army looked like in terms of uniforms and equipment?  Did they have firearms and artillery?  It would seem that they would have gunpowder weapons because Trebizond was an economic center in the Black Sea.  What do you think?

Hopefully this will start some discussion, then, because I am interested in the Trapezuntine army too, Sikander!   Here is some information that I have found in some reading on the subject.

In Osprey Men-at-Arms #287, Byzantine Armies, AD 1118-1461, by Ian Heath, there are a few details on the Trapezuntine army and the Ottoman sieges of 1461. Heath points out that the Trapezuntine military was damaged after a series of civil wars in the late 14th century. He says some overestimates in primary accounts puts the maximum troop number at 15,000 to 25,000. By the 15th century, however, Heath maintains that a count of 600 was about as large as the army would be until the fall of Trebizond. He says that the Trapezuntines later "abandoned military confrontation in favour of diplomatic marriage alliances with its powerful Turkish neighbours." (38-40) An artistic representation in the book of a 15th century Trapezuntine soldier depicts a cavalryman dressed in Turkish garb, unarmored, with a scimitar and a bow. He wears the a hat resembling the one John VIII Palaeologus is wearing in Pisanello's medallion of the emperor.

Here is a webpage that seems to be pretty well-written and informative:

http://www.fortunecity.com/underworld/straif/69/engtrapez.ht m

The article contained in the page has a good bibliography of sources. However, except for the Miller book and the two Vasiliev articles, the other books with the Greek authors are all written in modern Greek! The writer of the article must have translated the titles into English for the bibliography.  I have copies of those two Vasiliev articles, and I have read the Miller book. There is also another genealogical study of the Grand Comneni by Anthony Bryer, but it does not have much about the military.  The Osprey book and Miller to a certain extent are the only sources that have any real information on Trebizond's army that I have come across.  Can anyone add to this and / or suggest any other sources?

Originally posted by Oguzoglu Originally posted by Mortaza we  call greeks who  live  in Turkey or Cyprus as Rum. And greek who live in Greece are Yunan. No. "Rum" is a citizen of the Eastern Roman Empire. The Rums of Turkey dont call themselves Greeks, "Yunan"s or "Hellens". They call themselves "Rum", Roman. And they consider themselves the real descendants of the Roman Empire, not as Greeks. For example, Istanbul, Trebizond and Izmir has high numbers of Rums.

The Greeks living on the Muslim lands are and were called "Rum" meaning the "Romans", but I think Rums call themselves both "Romios" and "Hellen" in Greek language. Am I wrong? 

I said in the previous post, Greeks in the Muslim lands are called "Rum". They are seen as the remains of the Roman Empire. Also it is us who call Greeks in the Greece as "Yunan". As far as I know, they don't differ between "Rum" and "Yunan". They say "both are Hellens"...

I thought that the term 'hellene' was used by the ancient Greeks to describe their people as a whole. The Greeks banned the term because they thought of it as having pagan connotation, as you said Byzantine Emperor. When the Byzantine Empire was reduced to only is Greek elements, the term Hellene was used again to inspire nationalism in what remained of the empire.

Well it has long been a region known as Hellas. But the Greeks used the terms in ancient times, the late Byzantine period and in modern times. The other Byzantinists have already pointed this out. Regardless of what they called themselves, a large Greek population existed from ancient until modern times from the Western Balkans deep into Anatolia.

I have a vague memory of it being to do with two twins in mythology. One of whom was dropped into the Bosphorus while flying over it, the name of that child being Hellas apparently. But that's my vague memory on it, to be honest I have very little idea.

Lol and yes, I have seen the other threads debating the ethnicity of the Anatolians. If they want to try and prove me wrong I say bring it, I'm in need of a challenge .

Originally posted by Yiannis Originally posted by Oguzoglu   Trebizond was ethnically consisted of Rums . Rums? What is this nationality?

Originally posted by Mortaza <>we  call greeks who  live  in Turkey or Cyprus as Rum. And greek who live in Greece are Yunan.

Rum - from "Rome" (specifically, "Rome in Asia").  Contemporary Turkish name for all Anatolian lands (and their peoples) that once belonged to the East Roman Empire.

Originally posted by Belisarius While we are on the subject of Hellas, does anyone know what the word means?

The Hellenes considered themselves the descendants of one common ancestor, Hellen, the son of Deucalion and Pyrrha. To Hellen were ascribed three sons, Dorus, Xuthus, and AEolus. Of these Dorus and AEolus gave their names to the DORIANS and AEOLIANS; and Xuthus; through his two sons Ion and Achaeus, became the forefather of the IONIANS and ACHAEANS. Thus the Greeks accounted for the origin of the four great divisions of their race. The descent of the Hellenes from a common ancestor, Hellen, was a fundamental article in the popular faith. It was a general practice in antiquity to invent fictitious persons for the purpose of explaining names of which the origin was buried in obscurity. It was in this way that Hellen and his sons came into being; but though they never had any real existence, the tales about them may be regarded as the traditional history of the races to whom they gave their names.
http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/hi story-of-ancient-greece-2-origin.asp

Thanks for your responses.

How large was the Armenian community in the Byzantine Empire? I have not heard about many of them being in Trebizond. I was under the impression that Trebizond was heavily Georgian.


Edited by Belisarius

Trebizond had a major population of Laz, people related with Georgian but not Georgian. Laz still occupy most of the population in Trebizond and eastern regions. They have been inhabiting the region since even before Milet colonies.

Armenians have never been a dominant popuylation in Trebizond, Rums and Laz were. So Armenian claims on that city werent sensible. The Russian wanted Armenia to claim Trebizond so that they would have a rich trading Black Sea dock in the south. The main Armenian population of that time was dispersed around the Eastern province, Erzurum, Kars, Van, Bitlis, Tunceli etc. During Ottoman reign, Sivas was a dominantly Turkish city, then Kurd and Armenians.

The Treaty of Sevres was sharing the lands with dominant Turkish populations btw other states. The Ottoman dynasty have signed it, but the new authority of Ankara, the founders of Turkish Republic werent any related with Ottoman authority, they were even wanted by the Padishah. But they didnt accept that treaty, fought with the Greek army. Then the It�laf States had to leave Turkey. With Ataturk's leadership, there happened lots of battles btw Turks and Greeks. Turkey won its independence (not Ottoman Empire), and signed the Lausanene Treaty, which is internationally recognized. And then, Ataturk's government exiled the Osmanogly dynasty, declared the republic, ended the sultanate and caliphate.

So practically, as it's internationally recognized, Ottoman Empire signed the treaty of Sevres, but Turkey didnt. And naturally, Turkey isnt the total succesor state of Ottoman Empire, and isnt responsible with the treaties it signed, or the actions it took.