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"Slavic settlements in the Balkans"

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Leonidas View Drop Down
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Slavic settlements in the Balkans"
    Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 01:37
Originally posted by Vorian

What destroyed the peace?Greece has been under the Ottoman Empire before Albania,aND THEN THEY HAVE BEEN UNDER THIS EMPIRE TOGETHER FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS.
The fact that fighting between Greeks and Albs happened only in Greece after the indipendence proves what i said.There has never been fighting between Greeks and Albs in Albania,they always lived in peace.So this is the truth.


That's false. Many times during the Ottoman era, Albanian bands attacked Greeks. I won't call it ethnic confrontation since they also attacked other Albanians and Arvanites. I remember that Kolokotronis the famous Greek general of the Independence had joined arms  (years before the revolution) with a Muslim Arvanite of Moreas to fight other Albanian bands that had ravaged the entire peninsula.
AKAIK the differences (or oppostional lines) where religous and not purely ethnic (greek vs Albanian). Only after the nations were created did the ethno-nationalist dimension become an important distinction or fault line.


Edited by Leonidas - 26-Jun-2008 at 01:40
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 01:51
That's true. Christian Albanians and Greeks were more or less at friendly terms.
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 02:39
Originally posted by Vorian

Name an event where armed Greeks go around slaughtering everyone BEFORE the Revolution.

There are several occasions when "Turkalvanoi" as the Greeks called them were sent to quell some rebellion and after that continued to destroy the region until the Sultan had to use other forces to put them down.
 
 
I thought you was speaking about gangs in general.But i don't think there's nothing special in this either,every nation had its own role inside the ottoman empire ,bulgarians were noted for being good farmers,Greeks merchants and Albanians soldiers of fortune.An they were famous for doing this ,more or less everywhere ,not only in Greece.
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 13:20
I can also give you the example that Mazeover gives in his book (THE BALKANS) where he writes about the Turkish army in Salonika offering money to every Greek or any other nationality that killed an Albanian,wether be it an Bandit or any kind of an Albanian civilian.
 
So there was from time to time bands,religious or ethnic,who acted purely on self-interest,without representing their entire populations,only their self interest.Such band were Greeks ,albanians etc,even in Albania existed bands who killed albanian villagers,it does not mean they were at war with Albanians,since they themselves were Albanians, they were simply bandits.
 
What i meant was that it was only after Greek indipendence that such confrontations started to take on national confrontations,were diplomatic groops representing both populations were regularily meting and deciding were ones borders will be,were to draw the line to separate Albania from Greece.
 
After that there were on both sides,but mainly from greece ,suported by people in Government,bands which did not agree with the borders that were agreed by both coutries.And they embarked many times on adventures of forcing people to change national identitry,or makin them flee their lands.
 
As for Kolokotroni,he served also in the Albanian unit of Napoleon,and he clearly was an Albanian speaker,since he was also an Arvanitas.
 
Many Suliots who were muslims were booted out after the Greek indipendence and some of them live today in Cities like Vlora in Albania,were you find many families wich have the surname Suli,and have come from there in 1930-1940-s.
 
 
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 16:10
Kolokotronis was not an Arvanites but certainly spoke Arvanitan since many of his men were. All warlords spoke in both languages that time. Koloktronis was also friend with a Muslim Arvanitan called Ali Pharmakis with whom they had fought against Turks and those Albanian raiding parties i mentioned, many times.

In fact before the revolution, when the French occupied the Eptanese he had a plan that if worked the Balkans would be different today.

He had raised an army of Peloponnesian refugees and Greeks of Corfu, Leukada, Keffalonia etc and had acquired French help. The plan was that 500 French canon-specialties  disguised as Greeks would help him  take the fortified cities. The Souliots were already in the plan, and  many Muslim Arvanites of Moreas too.
Apparently they would land in Moreas and pretend to take over in the name of the Sutlan to protect them from Ali Pasha. Infuential Greeks in Constantinople would assure the Sutlan that they were sincere. So, after they had completely took over Moreas with his blessings they would rebel. French help would assure that the project succeded.

Kolokotronis vision was that the new state would have two official languages Greek and Albanian, two religions and he even made a flag with the cross on one side and half-moon on the other. However the French lost and the English didn't support the plan.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 17:35
HEROI you keep bringing up that the problems started when there was a Greek independent nation. Really I don't see much of a difference between Albanians or the Greeks concerning politics/war in that era except that the Greeks won and it seem that that is what you are again and again repeating under the guise of "Well the problem is Greek nation being independent."
 
Right-o...
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2008 at 18:04
I never said that the problem is Greek nation being indipendent!!!!!!!!!!!Where did you get that from?You certainly not contributing to the debate.
 
And i am not arguing with the Greek guys here nither,you can see that we have more or less the same opinions.
 
And there was no war between Greece and Albania,or between Greeks and Albanians that Greeks won,because there was no war.
 
But there have been comited atrocities on both sides which started to have nationalistic aspect to it only after the Greek indipendence,not because Greeks are bad,but because they were the first ones to claim indipendence,it could have been the same vice-versa.
 
You could well say that the only neighbour countries in Europe to have never fought a full scale war have been Greece and Albania.I am not claiming they have not fought with each other,they have,but the two countries have never been at war,exept technically when Albania was part of the Italy during the second world war.
 
And to be honest i dont think there will ever be a war between this two countries,there are hundreds of thousends Albanians living in Greece and a big Greek minority in Albania.
 
Not a serious normal thinking person can see a war between this two countries ever happening.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 11:58
ren -- re
dard--dardhë
toka--tokë
las--lesh
mal--mal
vasa--vashë
ves--vesh
cuza-cucë
nat--natë
ara--arrë
frim--frymë
ra--ra
caj--qaj
nis-nis
roj--rroj
leh--lind (lehem in Geg)
venedi--vendi
hyll--yll
bardi-bardhë
fimia-fëmijë
lissius-lisi
bur, buris ‘man’ [Alb. burrë ‘man’]
datan (datas) ‘place, settlement’ [Alb. datë ‘place, settlement]
drenis ‘deer’ [Alb. dre, dreni ‘deer’]
ermas ‘fierce, mad’ [Alb. jerm ‘furious, mad’]
mezéna ‘a horseman’ [Alb. mes, mezi ‘stallion’, Roman. (substrat) mînz
‘stallion’]
pupa ‘hill’ [Alb. pupë ‘hill’]
rera ‘stones, stony ground’ (from an earlier *lera) [Alb. lerë, -a ‘stones,
fallen stones’]
titha ‘light, radiance’ [morning drita(ë) ‘light, day’, Alb. ditë ‘day’]

If you knew how to pronounce Albanian words, you would see that the Illyrian words and the Albanian ones are similar in pronunciation and meaning. This similarity is no coincidence, things don't just happen for no reason. Also the concept of a border is a dynamic one, borders change, Illyria got invaded by romans, also the huns, goths and so on. Slavs who settled, and Greece were consantly chopping on the borders. Durres Dyrrachium , Shkodra( in Illyrian Skodra) the main cities in Illyrian times are still Albanian Cities. Why? Read about Shkodra before you start posting.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2008 at 12:09
"No doubt Albanians have some Illyrian in them. But no more then the Serbs or Croats." Serbs came in the Balkans around 7th century, that's After Christ. They cannot be considered Illyrian. The Croatian language is not similar with the Illyrian one, they are just a bunch of serbs who setteled on Illyrian land. Dalmatia was illyrian. The Illyrian words are almost exact with modern day Albanian, despite the infection of Turks. You cannot say the same for Croatian or Serbian. 
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  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2014 at 17:15
The peak of the Slavic expansion in Greece is showed by this map:

Slavic tribes in mainland Greece and in the Peloponnese - among them Milingowie (Μιληγγοί; Milengoi) and Jeziercy (Ἐζερῖται; Ezerītai):

About Slavic Milingowie / Milengoi (google translated to English): http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMilingowie

About Slavic Jeziercy / Ezeritai (google translated to English): http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FJeziercy

Map:

http://s21.postimg.org/sv442v3qv/Slavs_in_Greece.png



As you can see western part of the Peloponnese Peninsula was known as "Sklavonia terra" since the 8th century (VIII w.).

Jeziercy and Milingowie during the 10th century (X w.) lived even further south than Slavs of "Sklavonia terra".

And let's add that this map is from Zofia Kurnatowska's Polish book "Słowiańszczyzna południowa" ("Southern Slavdom").

Below I marked approximate boundaries between territories of different Slavic tribes from this map with red colour:

After that, I tried to guess who lived in other territories (i.e. those where no Slavic tribes were present) - blue names:

BTW - in the northern part of the map, words cut in half: "... VACI" = Croats and "... RBOWIE" = Serbs:

http://postimg.org/image/wiqcli8n3/



Well - there should be also Aromanians somewhere there (perhaps mixed with others in the same territories).

I forgot about them.

===============================

As for Slavic tribes of Milengoi and Ezeritai in in the Peloponnese - they remained Slavic-speaking until at least year 1200.

Only after that they became Greek.... what is the word ??? You know, the verb created from noun "Greekization".

They underwent Greekization after ca. year 1200.

========================================

BTW:

Within the Byzantine Empire, Milengoi and Ezeritai enjoyed large autonomy - their tribal territories existed as separate administrative districts.

Byzantine Emperors also allowed the Milengoi and the Ezeritai to have their own Dukes / Princes, who ruled their respective autonomous regions.

Considering how many privileges they enjoyed, I wonder if they came to the Peloponnese on their own, or were invited there by Emperor.

This question arises especially when we see, that their area was separated from other Slavic-speaking areas by non-Slavic regions.

And here another part of this map by Kurnatowska - areas further to the North:

Violet colour = Langobards and Gepids - who were there only until 567 / 568 (Langobards escaped from there to Italy due to the Avar invasion):

Orange colour = Southern Slavs (Sclaveni) in early 500s - later they abandoned that area and invaded from that area into the Balkans:

Green colour = steppe people (Avars - since 568 and Proto-Bulgars - since the 7th century):

http://postimg.org/image/mh0yx0ua5/



Karantanie = Carantanians (ancestors of modern Slovenes)

Słowianie Morawscy = Moravian Slavs

Chorwaci = Croats

Serbowie = Serbs

======================================

Here a "clear" version:

http://postimg.org/image/qrm5n7zb5/


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  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2014 at 17:20
By comparison - language situation in the Balkans in 1847:

Green = Albanians
Pink = Ottomans (Turkish-speaking people, including Turkish-speaking Jews as well)
Light Blue = Greeks
Yellow = Southern Slavs
Dark Blue = Aromanians

As you can see in Kosovo Albanians were still not clear majority at that time:

http://postimg.org/image/9173soyqt/



Highlighted the boundaries of Albanian-speaking territories and underlined (red line) Kosovo:

http://postimg.org/image/p7tbonz4x/



Source for this map (in fact it is just a fragment of a larger map) is:



Second part - Albanian-Greek boundaries in the South in 1847:

http://postimg.org/image/yktmplg7h/



Interesting is this Albanian (?) enclave just to the North of Athens.

And let's also add the extent of Greeks in the South-East in 1847:

http://postimg.org/image/8b9e4ga1x/



according to this map Albanian was spoken in large part of modern state of Montenegro, including the coastal area.

But the southern boundary of Albanian-speaking territory covered large part of modern Greece according to this map.

On the other hand, Kosovo was still mostly Serbian-speaking at that time, only with large Albanian enclaves.

Coastal regions of western and central Asia Minor - both in the South and in the North - were still mostly Greek-speaking.

Slavic-speaking territories extended as far south as the coast near Thessaloniki, but the city itself was mostly Turkish-speaking (probably Jews):

http://s28.postimg.org/nkfue7bu5/Salonica.png


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  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2014 at 19:59
Regarding the Slavic tribe marked in the map above as "Siedem Rodów":

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSiedem_Rod%25C3%25B3w

Strumińcy tribe:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FStrumi%25C5%2584cy

Rynchyni tribe:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRynchyni

Sagudaci tribe:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSagudaci

Draguwici tribe:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDraguwici

Welegezyci tribe:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWelegezyci

Etc., etc., etc.

These above are Polish wikipedia articles translated with use of: http://free-website-translation.com/?pl

I am providing links to English translations of Polish wiki articles, because English wiki articles about these tribes either:

1) Do not exist at all (strange).

Or:

2) Are very, very brief (a few sentences).

============================================

The size of those tribes can be estimated from the number of settlement names of Slavic origin in areas once inhabited by them. For example in the Peloponnese there are over 400 settlement names of Slavic origins - which indicates at least over 400 Slavic settlements. In areas once inhabited by Welegezyci (part of Thessaly) there are ca. 130 settlement names of Slavic origins - so there were at least 130 Slavic settlements there.


Edited by Domen - 08-Feb-2014 at 20:05
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chicagogeorge View Drop Down
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  Quote chicagogeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2017 at 14:02
Cold hard realities for some...

https://youtu.be/9QNOQJGy-SA
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  Quote Aeoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2017 at 11:07
Originally posted by chicagogeorge

Cold hard realities for some...

https://youtu.be/9QNOQJGy-SA

and more cold hard realities after him, during the period of Hellenisation, many non-Greek start to call himself Hellen.

Plus Hellenisation during the Byzantine period. Wink



 
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