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Topic ClosedWhy does Serbia hold onto Montenegro?

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why does Serbia hold onto Montenegro?
    Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 13:07

Originally posted by Mila

Just re-read the bolded part of my last post to answer your questions.

What?The medieval thing? I think wikipedia has a point there-those were stormy times-and it's when bosniak identity developed...btw, i found this in a book by Corovic- he claims your origins were serbian, though.Why are we even discussing this- even if u were Serbs-u're not right now...

Btw, historical works by Constantine Porphyrogenitus r counted as reliable...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 13:11

Originally posted by Mila

Well the Slavs settled Bosnia before the Serbs and Croats even arrived, Socrates.

I knew that.



Edited by Socrates
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 13:15
Then how can you say we're Serbs? It's just so blatantly wrong.

You gave the example of an American saying his ancestry is not British, when for a large section of the population the ancestry is from Britain. That example doesn't hold up.

By saying Bosniaks and/or Croats are Serbs, you're actually saying: Americans are descendant from Australians.

Serbs are not the first group - Slavs were. You can say Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs are all desendant from Slavs - but you can't say Bosniaks and Serbs are descendant from Croats, or Bosniaks and Croats are descendant from Serbs. It's just primitive common sense.

And considering the length of our journey out of Africa, we broke apart into separate nations at more or less exactly the same time.

Edited by Mila
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 13:35

Encyclopedia Britannica

1. The first recorded mention of Bosnia was written during this period by the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, who described "Bosona" as a district in "baptized Serbia."

2. TVRTKO KOTROMANIC (b. c. 1338--d. 1391), probably the greatest ruler of Bosnia, ruling as Bosnian ban (provincial lord, subservient to the king of Hungary) from 1353 and king of the Serbs and Bosnia from 1377.

3. The Ottoman Turks invaded Bosnia in 1386, and after many battles it became a Turkish province in 1463. Hum held out longer under rulers who styled themselves herceg ("duke") of St. Sava--a name recalled today in Herzegovina.

 

The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1917

Bosnia and Herzegovina
Population

"Excluding some 30,000 Albanians living in the south-east, the Jews who emigrated in earlier times from Spain, a few Osmanli Turks, the merchants, officials. and Austrian troops, the rest of the population (about 98 per cent) belong to the southern Slavonic people, the Serbs. Although one in race, the people form in religious beliefs three sharply separated divisions: the Mohammedans, about 550,000 persons (35 per cent), Greek Schismatics, about 674,000 persons (43 per cent), and Catholics, about 334,000 persons (21.3 per cent). The last mentioned are chiefly peasants."

De Originibus Slavicis, 1745, Joan Christofori de Jordan

In his study of the Slavs (De Originibus Slavicis, 1745), Joan Christofori de Jordan, one of the founders of Slavistics in Germania, believes that early German sources, namely Einhard (e.g. Sorabos, quae natio magnam Dalmatiae partem obtinere dicitur), offer important information as to Serbia-Bosnia's western borders. According to Christofori, all the historical evidence strongly suggests that Serbi-Bosnia's western border ran along the Una and Sava rivers, centered at Srb, an ancient stronghold on the Una River.

Illyria Sacrum, Daniele Farlati

Illyria Sacrum is a massive eight-volume history of the Church in Illyria prepared in the 18th and 19th centuries by three Italian Jesuits, Filipo Riceputi, Daniele Farlati and Jacobo Coleti. Illyria Sacrum is based on some 300 volumes of raw source materials collected over a twenty-year period. The first volume was published in 1751 and the eighth in 1819.

Historically speaking, Farlati writes, there are two Serbias. One Serbia is Primorje or Maritime Serbia. The other Serbia is Zagorje or Interior Serbia. Zagorje is made up of two parts, Bosnia and Rascia/Raska (partes Serbliae). Bosnia (pars Serbliae), Farlati writes, like Raska, is a Serb land, an original and integral part of Zagorja or Interior Serbia.

 Mila your knowledge is.....

 You read something what was a Tito politic..
 We can be shore that only Croats and Bulgars arrived on this peninsula 
  like already Slavinazed Avars,their culture is like ours today and language   too,only diferents is in dialekt but we can understand each other more or   less.
 In Istra we can find today  Slavs toponims wich dates many centuries before...river Rasa. Sofia was before Serdica...
 Croats and Bulgars use the some names of their own ancestors(Tuga,Vuga...)

 The problems on this land is with religons. This land was on the middle between Roma and Byzant interests.
 After 1054 when churches were divided. Vatikan suport the chatolics.
 When Turks arrived,they had their interest too.

 All sources we have,even from the East(Byzant-Porfirogenet DAI)
 And from the West (Roma-many Popes),Reinhard,Illyria Sacrum, Daniele 
  Farlati .

Maps of Europe


Direcke-Weltaltlas, begrndet von C. Diercke, fortgefhrt von R. Dehmel, Braunschweig 1973 176 (88 d. Neubearbeitung), S. 85.

Direcke-Weltaltlas, begrndet von C. Diercke, fortgefhrt von R. Dehmel, Braunschweig 1973 176 (88 d. Neubearbeitung), S. 85.

Reaction and revolution in Europe

Reaction and revolution in Europe

Languages, peoples and political divisions of Europe, 1815-1914

Languages, peoples and political divisions of Europe, 1815-1914

Direcke-Weltaltlas, begrndet von C. Diercke, fortgefhrt von R. Dehmel, Braunschweig 1973 176 (88 d. Neubearbeitung), S. 85.

Direcke-Weltaltlas, begrndet von C. Diercke, fortgefhrt von R. Dehmel, Braunschweig 1973 176 (88 d. Neubearbeitung), S. 85.

The Times "Atlas of World History", Edition 1978, page 214: Languages, peoples and political divisions of Europe 1800 to 1914

The Times "Atlas of World History", Edition 1978, page 214: Languages, peoples and political divisions of Europe [1800 to 1914]

F. W. Putzgers Historischer Schul-Atlas, 1905

F. W. Putzgers Historischer Schul-Atlas, 1905

Linguistic Divisions of Europe in 1914

Linguistic Divisions of Europe in 1914


Linguistic variants

Stjepan, Stepan, Stipan, Scepan, Stefan, Stevan was one and the same name. Because the letter "J" did not exist before Vuk Karadzic's (Serbian reformer) reforms, but the letter "JAT" did exist, the reader could interpret the sound to be read in any way, depending on which dialect he spoke and how the dialect or regionalism pronounces the sound "J".

The Serbian Epic of the emperor Stefan Dusan: "Zenidba Dusanova" (wedding of Dusan) :

When the Serbian Czar Stephan,
looked to marry a wife,
In the Latin city of Ledjin,
of the Latin king Michael,
a maden by the name of Roksana

(Vuk KaradzicII/28)

     Geographic Distribution of South Slavic Languages

(Geographic Distribution of South Slavic Languages)
Thus from king Tvrko all rulers carried the name STEPHAN.
(see their letters.)
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 14:26
It's almost comical. I have to bookmark my posts so I can just copy them and re-paste them every time you bring up the same arguements.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovi na

Anyhow, it was fun for a time but now it's just annoying - so I'm out of this thread. Xox Good luck. I can't wait until you start saying the Ottoman Empire was a Serbian empire too. Tvrtko conquered you, get over it.


Edited by Mila
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 14:48
 
 And here is his original letter on this link,not some woodoo s...
 

 He put before his name STEFAN i hope you know what is that.

 Quote""in 1377 he was crowned King of Serbia and Bosnia and the Seaside and the Western Lands in a Franciscan monastery in Mile, in the city of Visoko near Sarajevo.""

 Thats not true,origialy is like this:" in 1377 he was crowned King of Serbs and Bosnia and the Seaside.....You can see in his letters.
 
 You can see the map of that period on this forum: Historical pictures and Maps gallery: When was

Louis I of Hungary


South East Europe before the rule of Louis the I

Posted: 17 December 2005 at 10:42am | IP Logged...by....Nagyfejedelem
King
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 14:50
 Link to the letter didn't appear
http://members.tripod.com/cafehome/povkotromanica/tvrtko.htm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 14:53
 After Mighty Dusan ,country felt apart.
When your heart is empty,your
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 15:35
 Always the same. You can run but you can't hide

 And stop avoiding the true,we live in 2006
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 20:36
Originally posted by Mila

It's almost comical. I have to bookmark my posts so I can just copy them and re-paste them every time you bring up the same arguements.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovi na

Anyhow, it was fun for a time but now it's just annoying - so I'm out of this thread. Xox Good luck. I can't wait until you start saying the Ottoman Empire was a Serbian empire too. Tvrtko conquered you, get over it.


shhhh Mila just come to terms we are serbs\

it's laughable that people still fall prey to the bs propaganda .

that is the true reason why tensions prevail in the region
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 20:39
Originally posted by Surbel

Encyclopedia Britannica

1. The first recorded mention of Bosnia was written during this period by the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, who described "Bosona" as a district in "baptized Serbia."

2. TVRTKO KOTROMANIC (b. c. 1338--d. 1391), probably the greatest ruler of Bosnia, ruling as Bosnian ban (provincial lord, subservient to the king of Hungary) from 1353 and king of the Serbs and Bosnia from 1377.

3. The Ottoman Turks invaded Bosnia in 1386, and after many battles it became a Turkish province in 1463. Hum held out longer under rulers who styled themselves herceg ("duke") of St. Sava--a name recalled today in Herzegovina.

 

The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1917

Bosnia and Herzegovina
Population

"Excluding some 30,000 Albanians living in the south-east, the Jews who emigrated in earlier times from Spain, a few Osmanli Turks, the merchants, officials. and Austrian troops, the rest of the population (about 98 per cent) belong to the southern Slavonic people, the Serbs. Although one in race, the people form in religious beliefs three sharply separated divisions: the Mohammedans, about 550,000 persons (35 per cent), Greek Schismatics, about 674,000 persons (43 per cent), and Catholics, about 334,000 persons (21.3 per cent). The last mentioned are chiefly peasants."

De Originibus Slavicis, 1745, Joan Christofori de Jordan

In his study of the Slavs (De Originibus Slavicis, 1745), Joan Christofori de Jordan, one of the founders of Slavistics in Germania, believes that early German sources, namely Einhard (e.g. Sorabos, quae natio magnam Dalmatiae partem obtinere dicitur), offer important information as to Serbia-Bosnia's western borders. According to Christofori, all the historical evidence strongly suggests that Serbi-Bosnia's western border ran along the Una and Sava rivers, centered at Srb, an ancient stronghold on the Una River.

Illyria Sacrum, Daniele Farlati

Illyria Sacrum is a massive eight-volume history of the Church in Illyria prepared in the 18th and 19th centuries by three Italian Jesuits, Filipo Riceputi, Daniele Farlati and Jacobo Coleti. Illyria Sacrum is based on some 300 volumes of raw source materials collected over a twenty-year period. The first volume was published in 1751 and the eighth in 1819.

Historically speaking, Farlati writes, there are two Serbias. One Serbia is Primorje or Maritime Serbia. The other Serbia is Zagorje or Interior Serbia. Zagorje is made up of two parts, Bosnia and Rascia/Raska (partes Serbliae). Bosnia (pars Serbliae), Farlati writes, like Raska, is a Serb land, an original and integral part of Zagorja or Interior Serbia.

 Mila your knowledge is.....

 You read something what was a Tito politic..
 We can be shore that only Croats and Bulgars arrived on this peninsula 
  like already Slavinazed Avars,their culture is like ours today and language   too,only diferents is in dialekt but we can understand each other more or   less.
 In Istra we can find today  Slavs toponims wich dates many centuries before...river Rasa. Sofia was before Serdica...
 Croats and Bulgars use the some names of their own ancestors(Tuga,Vuga...)

 The problems on this land is with religons. This land was on the middle between Roma and Byzant interests.
 After 1054 when churches were divided. Vatikan suport the chatolics.
 When Turks arrived,they had their interest too.

 All sources we have,even from the East(Byzant-Porfirogenet DAI)
 And from the West (Roma-many Popes),Reinhard,Illyria Sacrum, Daniele 
  Farlati .

Maps of Europe


Direcke-Weltaltlas, begrndet von C. Diercke, fortgefhrt von R. Dehmel, Braunschweig 1973 176 (88 d. Neubearbeitung), S. 85.

Direcke-Weltaltlas, begrndet von C. Diercke, fortgefhrt von R. Dehmel, Braunschweig 1973 176 (88 d. Neubearbeitung), S. 85.

Reaction and revolution in Europe

Reaction and revolution in Europe

Languages, peoples and political divisions of Europe, 1815-1914

Languages, peoples and political divisions of Europe, 1815-1914

Direcke-Weltaltlas, begrndet von C. Diercke, fortgefhrt von R. Dehmel, Braunschweig 1973 176 (88 d. Neubearbeitung), S. 85.

Direcke-Weltaltlas, begrndet von C. Diercke, fortgefhrt von R. Dehmel, Braunschweig 1973 176 (88 d. Neubearbeitung), S. 85.

The Times "Atlas of World History", Edition 1978, page 214: Languages, peoples and political divisions of Europe 1800 to 1914

The Times "Atlas of World History", Edition 1978, page 214: Languages, peoples and political divisions of Europe [1800 to 1914]

F. W. Putzgers Historischer Schul-Atlas, 1905

F. W. Putzgers Historischer Schul-Atlas, 1905

Linguistic Divisions of Europe in 1914

Linguistic Divisions of Europe in 1914


Linguistic variants

Stjepan, Stepan, Stipan, Scepan, Stefan, Stevan was one and the same name. Because the letter "J" did not exist before Vuk Karadzic's (Serbian reformer) reforms, but the letter "JAT" did exist, the reader could interpret the sound to be read in any way, depending on which dialect he spoke and how the dialect or regionalism pronounces the sound "J".

The Serbian Epic of the emperor Stefan Dusan: "Zenidba Dusanova" (wedding of Dusan) :

When the Serbian Czar Stephan,
looked to marry a wife,
In the Latin city of Ledjin,
of the Latin king Michael,
a maden by the name of Roksana

(Vuk KaradzicII/28)

     Geographic Distribution of South Slavic Languages

(Geographic Distribution of South Slavic Languages)
Thus from king Tvrko all rulers carried the name STEPHAN.
(see their letters.)
 


Wait did you even for a minute take that antiquated Catholic Encyclopedia as an authority on Bosnian history or do you just pick and choose the sources that will carry on your point further no matter how wrong the sources used are?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 20:40
Originally posted by Surbel

ill_tecnique relaja te un pocito,take some pills. Move on,you are liveing in the past not me.  If a fact disturbed you,don't watch it,like in a past  time.

 If you know that you are right,why you become so nervose?

 I didn't ensalt you not even once,but you did me few times.
I accept that.  It's not your fault if you had read just some books. Your time is comming,but start with bonton first.


I did  not insult you - the only way you can feel insulted by the word cetnik is if you feel yourself as one.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 21:31
 Just check the letters don't avoid the history. You can run but you can't hide.
You are a Bosniak today,i agree with you.
 I posted a primary sources for each period:
                              DAI,
                              LPD,
                              Encyclopedia Britannica,
The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1917,
                              De Originibus Slavicis, 1745, Joan Christofori de Jordan,
                             
Illyria Sacrum, Daniele Farlati               
                              Maps of Europe,
                              Einhard,
                              His original  letters(Kotromanic)   

     After this sources you only can say:
 """"the sources that will carry on your point further no matter how wrong the sources used are? Jajaja  every f...g one is wrong,the hole history was wrong and make some bad things to your nation because it didn't mention
the "Great state of Bosniaks"

 Show me some woodoo magic man. Only you have is a wikipedia
 Evlija Celebija by Karl May: "The lonely sailor"

 Wake up accept the history so you can have the future,or don't bother at all and go play on the backyard streeball.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 09:04
  postamble()
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 15:02
  Western border of Serbia

According to Christofori and most historians, all the historical evidence strongly suggests that Serbi-Bosnia's western border ran along the Una and Sava rivers, centered at Srb, an ancient stronhold on the Una River.


Croatian historiography

Within Croatian Historiography there is a strong agreement that Croatia's eastern border ran along the Una and Sava rivers: The following published works of major croat historian illustrate this effectively:

Klaić, Nada. Povijest Hrvata u ranom srednjem vijeku, Zagreb 1975.: Pokuaj ujedinjavanja panonskih Slavena www.geocities.com/hrvatsk...img/07.gif


Raukar, Tomislav.: Hrvatska u doba kneza Trpimira (sredina IX. st.) www.geocities.com/hrvatsk...img/08.gif


Klaić, Nada. Povijest Hrvata u ranom srednjem vijeku, Zagreb 1975.: Hrvatska i Slavonija za Tomislava www.geocities.com/hrvatsk...img/09.gif


Klaić, Nada. Povijest Hrvata u ranom srednjem vijeku, Zagreb 1975.: Dolazak Arpadovića www.geocities.com/hrvatsk...img/10.gif

 Hard to accept,but thats history if you like it or not and that goes to your comrad Mila too.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 18:50
Ti si opicen u glavu
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 19:09
Originally posted by ill_teknique

Ti si opicen u glavu


 Turkoglu,yo te quiero mucho. No puedo vivir sin ti.
 Tell me your surname so i can tell you,who was your grandfather
 We have some very very old books.
 I can help you.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 19:50
Originally posted by Surbel

Originally posted by ill_teknique

Ti si opicen u glavu


 Turkoglu,yo te quiero mucho. No puedo vivir sin ti.
 Tell me your surname so i can tell you,who was your grandfather
 We have some very very old books.
 I can help you.


Onaj turcin sto ti je uzeo srbiju
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 20:02
Originally posted by ill_teknique

Originally posted by Surbel

Originally posted by ill_teknique

Ti si opicen u glavu


 Turkoglu,yo te quiero mucho. No puedo vivir sin ti.
 Tell me your surname so i can tell you,who was your grandfather
 We have some very very old books.
 I can help you.


Onaj turcin sto ti je uzeo srbiju


But you sad that you are Bosniak,what happend now you become a  Turk?

 And remember something,you didn't take me nothing. But what did you take you must live with it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 20:05
I never told you what I was and you're assuming cetnik
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