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Why Alexander did not invade India?

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Akolouthos View Drop Down
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why Alexander did not invade India?
    Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 01:17
Originally posted by bilal ali 2000

When they rebelled the average Greek soldier probably would be thinking this

"I curse the day whe we set foot in this land. It is very much different here. When we fought the Persians it was much different, there when you won in the battle field you were the masters of the land but here even when you subdue a people you are still attacked by the people of that tribe. The people here are much more resilient than we had anticipated, time and time again they have fought us to the last man even when they were lead by a woman. Porus had a Peasent army which was a few times smaller than our army yet they made us sweat like never before. And when he came to Alexander wounded and Alexander asked him that how he wanted him to treat him he said "Treat me, O Alexander, like a King", how can you subdue a people like that. And if we struggled so badly against Porus how will we able to handle the 500,000 strong army of the Nandas. And these Elephants, We had never seen anything like them ever before, the horses are afraid of them we are afraid of them. Three fourths of our Army has been depleted since we entered this place how much longer can we last. Alexander is crazy, his wounds that he recieved are driving him insane, he will sacrifice us all to his wild ambitions. I will haev no part of it."

 
Wow, the "average Greek soldier" of Alexander's army sounds an awful lot like bilal from 2007, complete with a pro-Indian nationalism to boot. LOL
 
-Akolouthos
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  Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 18:56
Originally posted by Akolouthos

 
Wow, the "average Greek soldier" of Alexander's army sounds an awful lot like bilal from 2007, complete with a pro-Indian nationalism to boot. LOL
 
-Akolouthos
 
Clap took the words right out of my mouth... lol!
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  Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 19:03
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

I guess you are right but it is still annoying bringing up Pakistan when talking about Alexander's invasion of "India". India comes from Indus (pretty obvious) and looking on some Greek historical sources, I find that the Greeks refer it to Indoi, which supposedly means the people of the Indus which pretty much equally means the people of India. So when Greek historians write about this event, they refer to the region they invaded as the people of Indoi/Indus/India. The name Pakistan was never refer to the region of Punjab back then so its irrelevant to bring it up at all. I really think its just the political situation of geography nowadays that creates this kind of debate.
 
i disagree, according to this train of thought, then all things pertaining to the Byzantian empire should not include the main country it now encompasses (from a modern political point of view of course!) ..ie.  Turkey.. since its a modern name right?Wink
 
And what about countries, provinces that now make up Macedonia (province in Greece, Former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia)
 
And what about Canada? its part of north AMERICA, should we just bunch up all of Canada's history with that of the USA, since at one time, on ancient maps, the whole continent was called North America and ruled by various Aboriginal ''indian'' tribes... lol!
 
The whole point is, with reference sources, maps and historical/oral accounts by Alexanders men, we can now accurately pinpoint where and when his forces went, and based on this information, he did Not enter any of the area/regions where the modern day republic of india is today.  Not to sound like a broken record but just to get the facts straight! What we  know is that Alexander and his troops conquered the land(s) in the modern day regions of Greece, Turkey, Iraq, Egypt, Armenia, Iran, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and Pakistan.
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  Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 19:07
Originally posted by anum

Indus is in punjab and sindh and also what people are trying to say here is that present day land of pakistan was known as india to the greeks, not the india the nation today which is different.

 
Exactly! finally someone to clearify this simple yet often overlooked point!  while its a small point, its implication in the modern sense is very important!! Good ''factoid'' to bring up Anum, this should help clearify lots of misconceptions that many of our AE colleagues are having.
 
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  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 22:59
Originally posted by MarcoPolo

i disagree, according to this train of thought, then all things pertaining to the Byzantian empire should not include the main country it now encompasses (from a modern political point of view of course!) ..ie.  Turkey.. since its a modern name right?Wink


Actually yes, it is instead to be called Asia Minor! LOL

Anyway, I see the point of what you are saying. Yes Alexander did not invade present day India but the Punjab valley in Pakistan. But alot of the people I come across talking about Alexander's invasion of the Indus refer to Pakistan alot. Even saying things like that Alexander fought Pakistanis instead of Indians and that Alexander only defeated Pakistanis and have yet to fight the Indians (which they assume that Indians are more powerful). These nationalist ideas are so stupid that every time someone talks about this subject, I get pretty annoyed that I just want to slap them across the face for even saying stupid comments!
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 00:03
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by bilal ali 2000

When they rebelled the average Greek soldier probably would be thinking this

"I curse the day whe we set foot in this land. It is very much different here. When we fought the Persians it was much different, there when you won in the battle field you were the masters of the land but here even when you subdue a people you are still attacked by the people of that tribe. The people here are much more resilient than we had anticipated, time and time again they have fought us to the last man even when they were lead by a woman. Porus had a Peasent army which was a few times smaller than our army yet they made us sweat like never before. And when he came to Alexander wounded and Alexander asked him that how he wanted him to treat him he said "Treat me, O Alexander, like a King", how can you subdue a people like that. And if we struggled so badly against Porus how will we able to handle the 500,000 strong army of the Nandas. And these Elephants, We had never seen anything like them ever before, the horses are afraid of them we are afraid of them. Three fourths of our Army has been depleted since we entered this place how much longer can we last. Alexander is crazy, his wounds that he recieved are driving him insane, he will sacrifice us all to his wild ambitions. I will haev no part of it."

 
Wow, the "average Greek soldier" of Alexander's army sounds an awful lot like bilal from 2007, complete with a pro-Indian nationalism to boot. LOL
 
-Akolouthos
 
Well the reason that i Bilal in 2007 tried to sound like a Greek soldier in 200 B.C is because what this euro centric  Vorian said
 
"Excuse me but you fail to grasp the psychology of the random Macedonian soldier" 
 
So excuse me i was only doing what this Eruo Centric guy was telling me to do.
 
I think that i have pretty much shown that howabsurd is the idea that a Greek solider of the time who was part of the world's first professional army and was familiar and dealt with much harsher conditions than the subcontinent set foot in the subcontinent magically became fidgety.       
 
And by the way i am not an Indian but a Pakistani. And if you know your geography then you will know that it was the Ancient Pakistanis who dealt with Alexander.
 
And even though the post was made in humour i have not taken too much liberty with history.    
 
At the time of Alexander's invasions this region did not had a central rulership therefore the people which the Greeks defeated would sometimes again rise up against them because of the lack of a central authority. And the chances are considering the resistance that the Greek armies faced from the people of this region is that at least some of the Greek soldiers would have thought that the people of this region had proved to be more resilient than they had anticipated. And there was also a tribe which was ruled by a woman who vowed that they would fight to the last man against Alexander and they did. We also know that Alexander's battle with Porus was his toughest battle and Porus's army was a few times smaller than Alexander's army. And it is said that when Porus uttered those immortal words "Treat me O Alexander like a king" Alexander's mouth fell open. If that line affected Alexander so much surely it must have also affected a lowly Greek soldier. It is also very strongly suggested that it was the news of the huge armies of the nandas which made the Greek army to rebel agnaist Alexander. The Greeks were also very troubled by Elephants and their cavalry would just not go near the hulking beast. Three fouths of Alexander's army which crossed the himalayas never made it back. Alexander recieved two or three near fatal wounds here and it is said that his behavior became increasingly erratic and he got addicted to a pain reliever herb. And the Greek soldiers were also reported to have become distrustful of Alexander first because of his Persianizing and then because of his ambition to conquer the world.
 
 
As you can see that i have hardly made up any historical facts and when i have made some assumptions there is pretty good circumstancial reason that why i did so.
 
 
However compare this with some of the master historical research that some of the Eurocentrics have done by saying things like             
 
" It would have been interesting if the men were still fresh Alexander probably would have conquered most of India and possibly SE Asia."
 
As had already been  pointed out that only 1/5 of Alexander's troops were the original ones the rest were fresh recruits. And what about supply lines, it is highly unlikely that Alexander in about two three years would have been able to make the whole subcontinent from Pakhtoonistan to Bengal eating out of his hand so that while he would be campaigning in SE Asia they would remain well behaved even though Alexander would have been completely stranded in the midde of nowhere had his supply lines been cut off.    
    And even then the Mongols were not able to subdue the vietnamese and niether could the Americans having state of the art technology at their disposal in times much advanced than Alexander's fighting against the poorly equiped Vietnamese yet Alexander somehow would have been able to do so.
    But some of the Eurocentrics rarely are troubled by taking such liberties with history and historical common sense.      
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 04:32
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

And by the way i am not an Indian but a Pakistani. And if you know your geography then you will know that it was the Ancient Pakistanis who dealt with Alexander.


Lmao! Heres another one... Clap Let me ask you this, how ancient is ancient Pakistanis? Hmm?
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  Quote anum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 04:42
wait bilal is pakistani? so why is he being so nationalistic indian?
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 04:45
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738


Not really. After Alexander succeeded to the throne, he had many problems at start. Particularly the Thracians and Illyrians who sought the young king as weak and inexperience and Alexander had to fight these guys when which the Greek city-states decided this was the perfect time to break off of Macedonian rule. Alexander defeated all his adversaries but his treasury was depleted after all the fighting. Alexander had no choice but to go on with his father's plan of invading the Persian Empire, using the excuse of the Persians invading Greece before as a uniter of the Greeks as support of the war. The promise of the spoils of war would help finance the war and relieve the treasury. Also at the time Parmenion was in danger of being destroyed by Memnon's army. Parmenion was loyal to the new king, so Alexander wanted to save him so Alexander had to invade the Persian Empire anyway. All these are reasons of the war against Persia.


            So the tall and short of it is that Alexander attacked Persia because the Persians were attacking their homeland.   
 
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

About accepted foreigners as sovereigns... are we talking about the soldiers or Alexander? Cause the soldiers definitely feels that way to most of them but not Alexander.
         We think of Alexander as being something extraordinary after 2500 years. To most of the people of the time he was just another foreign invader, that was why they resisted him so stubornly.  
 
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

Porus was not the only person that Alexander was appointed to being a ruler of a satrap. Though he probably is the only one that was reappointed to his own land (though I got to look that up). Alexander appointed many Persians to rule their own satraps during his campaigns. Such as that of Artabazus satrap of Bactria. Artabazus and his family has been loyal supporters of the throne and when Alexander declared himself king of Asia, Artabazus surrendered his army to Alexander and Alexander gave him Bactria as a reward. Another was Satibazanes, satrap of Aria. He one of the assassins that assassinated Darius who surrendered to Alexander. Alexander pardoned him and appointed him satrap of Aria but he soon revolted for some unknown reason... that is to say not all Persians are trustworthy but Alexander did appointed Perisans to some important status.
  There is a difference between a common ruler and Porus. Porus was a proud man and he would not have been very happy playing the part of (i repeat) a lap dog to Alexander.   
 
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738


The cultural contact between Greeks and Persian centered on the city of Alexandria. I dont know where you get the idea that Alexander resisted the Persia culture... it is the exact opposite as Alexander actually embraced the culture. Declaring himself as king of Asia, wearing Persian dress, performing Persian customs. Persian culture was written all over him. He believe that is was a way to unite the Persians and Greeks together by this cultural fusion. The soldiers didnt like it but Alexander did. Why else did you think Alexander died? Because of malaria? Persians are replacing the Macedonians and Greeks in status, the companions believe Alexander is taking it too far embracing the Persians. The companions believe he had to go before they themselves lose favor from the king. They want to save the Greek culture... as oppose to Alexander..
 
      Where did i say that he resisted Persian culture. I am perfectly aware that he patronized Persian culture once Persia fell to him and it was a cause of friction between him and his army. Are you saying that his army poisoned him. It seems a bit like a historical conspiracy theory to me. We know that Alexander got two or three near fatal wounds in his subcontinent campaign started getting ill and finally in Iraq died. 
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  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 15:20
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

And by the way i am not an Indian but a Pakistani. And if you know your geography then you will know that it was the Ancient Pakistanis who dealt with Alexander.


Lmao! Heres another one... Clap Let me ask you this, how ancient is ancient Pakistanis? Hmm?



I don't know how many times it has been repeated already but ancient Pakistan is Ancient India. Modern India doesn't even have the river indus in it nor the land of sapta sindhu(sindh province). It was ancient pakistanis who created the language sanskrit 2500 years ago as well as the Vedic Civilization which "modern india" aka Bharat still models itself on "religiously".  The confusion arises because Bharat ended up with a name it had no right to and never should have gotten--India.

In short, that is how "ancient is ancient pakistanis".
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  Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 19:07
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738


Anyway, I see the point of what you are saying. Yes Alexander did not invade present day India but the Punjab valley in Pakistan. But alot of the people I come across talking about Alexander's invasion of the Indus refer to Pakistan alot. Even saying things like that Alexander fought Pakistanis instead of Indians and that Alexander only defeated Pakistanis and have yet to fight the Indians (which they assume that Indians are more powerful). These nationalist ideas are so stupid that every time someone talks about this subject, I get pretty annoyed that I just want to slap them across the face for even saying stupid comments!
 
It does get very annoying lol!
 
Also, from a technical point of view, Alexander and his men, actually fought against the ancient inhabitants of Pakistan which means that he fought the forefathers of the Pasthuns, Panjabis, Sindhis, Dardic tribes as well as the Baloch (some 95% of Pakistan's ethnic make-up today).. so in a manner this statement is very valid.  The other part of the statement is ludicrous as he never went east of Pakistan current political geography, and does sound a tad bit over-zeolous nationalistic and if I may add, wishful thinking LOL
 
But take it from me, being a Pakistani and having done a bit of archeological research myself (2 years), its even more annoying(multiply by 100X)  when you read up that your forefather's history is being distorted and hijacked by another country, especially when you know the facts and they completely contradict it but people(strangers) state otherwise!  now thats annoying brother! Smile
 
 


Edited by MarcoPolo - 27-Dec-2007 at 19:09
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  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 22:46
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

So the tall and short of it is that Alexander attacked Persia because the Persians were attacking their homeland.


No. 

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

We think of Alexander as being something extraordinary after 2500 years. To most of the people of the time he was just another foreign invader, that was why they resisted him so stubornly.


Umm... what are we talking about now? Persians? You asked why did the Greeks resist the Persians and now you are talking about Persians resisting Greeks? Get your stuff straight out... which one are you talking about?
 
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

There is a difference between a common ruler and Porus. Porus was a proud man and he would not have been very happy playing the part of (i repeat) a lap dog to Alexander.


Anyone can be a proud person! How do you know how Porus felt? Do you know his every thought?
 
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Where did i say that he resisted Persian culture. I am perfectly aware that he patronized Persian culture once Persia fell to him and it was a cause of friction between him and his army.


You said:

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Had they accepted Persians as their sovereign they could have become part of the huge Persian empire and that meant a lot of trade opportunities as well as being able to have cultural contact with the rest of the world which meant free exchange of ideas. Yet they resisted the Persians because it was against their pride to accept a foreigner as their sovereign.


You make it sound like "they" are the Macedonians and Greeks (which includes Alexander) that are resisting the Persians. Maybe you should say who "they" are.

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Are you saying that his army poisoned him. It seems a bit like a historical conspiracy theory to me. We know that Alexander got two or three near fatal wounds in his subcontinent campaign started getting ill and finally in Iraq died. 


That made it even worst.

Originally posted by maqsad

The confusion arises because Bharat ended up with a name it had no right to and never should have gotten--India.


Quite possibly it. Maybe it was named before the separation of Pakistan so it couldnt have been know...?

Originally posted by MarcoPolo

Also, from a technical point of view, Alexander and his men, actually fought against the ancient inhabitants of Pakistan which means that he fought the forefathers of the Pasthuns, Panjabis, Sindhis, Dardic tribes as well as the Baloch (some 95% of Pakistan's ethnic make-up today).. so in a manner this statement is very valid.


Yes, technically it may be so but when talking about these historical subjects, its best to use the name that applied to it back then. Since the word "Pakistan" isnt used back then, when talking about that region it should be refer to as India (the people of the Indus). Pakistan and Pakistanis are a modern name for the Muslim population of India (people of the Indus) so when people say Alexander fought Pakistanis in Pakistan, do they also mean East Pakistan too (Bangladesh)? Wink
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  Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 08:54
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738



Originally posted by MarcoPolo

Also, from a technical point of view, Alexander and his men, actually fought against the ancient inhabitants of Pakistan which means that he fought the forefathers of the Pasthuns, Panjabis, Sindhis, Dardic tribes as well as the Baloch (some 95% of Pakistan's ethnic make-up today).. so in a manner this statement is very valid.


Yes, technically it may be so but when talking about these historical subjects, its best to use the name that applied to it back then. Since the word "Pakistan" isnt used back then, when talking about that region it should be refer to as India (the people of the Indus). Pakistan and Pakistanis are a modern name for the Muslim population of India (people of the Indus) so when people say Alexander fought Pakistanis in Pakistan, do they also mean East Pakistan too (Bangladesh)? Wink
 
lol! hilarious... 
 
original meaning of PAKISTAN
 
P-anjab
A-afghania
K-ashmir
I-persian ''ezafe''
S-Sindh
Tan-Balochistan
 
no mention of Bangladesh in the original demand
 
How about, to keep things clear, we say Alexander fought the natives of the Indus region of Pakistan.Wink
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 19:39
-istan is a persian word and means land, or how do you explain that most of central asia also has countries that end with -istan?
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 21:05
Isn't that always the way, how one civilization affects many others and others effect them?
elenos
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  Quote ishwa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 01:58

India or Hind(ustan) has its more ancient information in the Avesta:

The Zend Avesta (Vendidad Fargard 1) also refers to the seven rivers (hapta hendu, 1.18), which are generally equated with the Sapta Sindhu (Gnoli 1985). In the Avesta this land is referred to as one of the sixteen "best regions" of the Iranian Aryans created by the Lord.

pacadasem asanghmca shithranmca vahishtem frthveresem azem ahur mazd hapta hedu,.

18. The fifteenth of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was
the Seven Rivers42.
42. [Hum34: "the PhlT of V1.18 quotes the fragment haca ushastara hinduua auui daosha<s>tarem hindum 'from the eastern river to the western river'.]

Hapta Hendava must be more than only the 5 Panjabi rivers. It includes the two rivers of Haryana, which last was rather the sacred center of the Vedic people. The Avestan fragment clearly refers to (N)India as the land of the rivers.

 

The Pahlavi or Middle Persian work Bundahishn chapter 20 refers to Hindustan:

7. the Mehrva river they call the Hendva river,

9. The Veh river passes on in the east, goes through the land of Sind, and flows to the sea in Hindustan, and they call it there the Mehra river.

 

The Mehr(v)a river is the modern Mihran, one of the channels of the ancient Sarasvati river! And that river is called the Hendva river!

 

Description of Hindustan, from Memoirs of  Zehīr-ed-Dīn Muhammed Bābur, Emperor of Hindustan

Written by himself, in the Chaghatāi Tūrki, Translated by John Leyden, Esq., M.D.  and William Erskine, Esq.

Annotated and Revised by Sir Lucas King, C.S.I., LL.D., F.S.A. Professor of Arabic and Persian, and Lecturer in Indian History in the University of Dublin; Late of the Indian Civil Service

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/main?url=pf%3Ffile%3D03501050%26ct%3D0 :

Events of the Year 932 (18-10-1525) ii.162

Hindustān is situated in the first, second, and third climates. No part of it is in the fourth. It is a remarkably fine country. It is quite a different world, compared with our countries. Its hills and rivers, its forests and plains, its animals and plants, its inhabitants and their languages, its winds and rains, are all of a different nature. Although the garmsīls (or hot districts), in the territory of Kābul, bear, in many respects, some resemblance to Hindustān, while in other particulars they differ, yet you have no sooner passed the river Sind than the country,* the trees, the stones, the wandering tribes, the manners and customs of the people, are all entirely those of Hindustān. The northern range of hills has been mentioned.

The natives of Hind call these hills Sawālak-parbat.

On these hills the snow never melts, and from some parts of Hindustān, such as Lahore, Sirhind, and Sambal, it is seen white on them all the year round. This range of hills takes the name of Hindū-kūsh, near Kābul, and runs from Kābul eastward, but inclining a little to the south. All to the south of this range is Hindustān. To the north of these hills, and of that unknown race of men whom they call Kas, lies Tibet.*
A great number of rivers take their rise in these mountains, and flow through Hindustān. To the north of Sirhind, six rivers, the Sind, the Behāt, the Chenāb, the Rāvi, the Biās, and the Satlej,
* take their rise in these mountains, and all uniting with the Sind in the territory of Multān, take the common name of the Sind, which, flowing down to the west, passes through the country of Tatta, and disembogues into the sea of Omān. Besides these six rivers, there are other rivers, such as the Jumna, the Ganges, the Rahet,* the Gūmti, the Gogra, the Sirūd, the Gandak, and a number of others, that all throw themselves into the Ganges,* which, preserving its name, proceeds towards the east, and, passing through the midst of Bengal, empties itself into the Great Ocean. The sources of all these rivers are in the Sawālak. There are, however, several other rivers, such as the Chambal, the Banās, the Betwa, and the Son, which rise from ranges of hills that are within Hindustān. In these ranges, it never snows. These rivers likewise fall into the Ganges.


Note that Hindustan and Hind are both being used, as also the river Sind is mentioned. As per Babar, Hind(ustan) rather denotes almost entire modern Pakistan upto the Hindukush and modern India beyond the Panjab!

Another socio-geographical border is by the river Sind. But he also says about Kandahār. This country lies between Hindustān and Khorasān. I.205. Which means that Baluchistan is within Hind(ustan).

 

How much different is this from the descriptions of India of the classical Greaco-Roman historians? 

 

Ancient map of South Asia by A.Vigasin, The Indian chapter (VI.56-106) of Natural History by Pliny the Elder

The starting point for the Plinys enumeration of the Indian peoples is again the North-West frontiers of the country, the mountains of Hindukush (Hemodus), inhabited by the tribes of Isari, Cosiri and Izi (VI.64). Cosiri (Casiri) were mentioned earlier (VI.55) as the people of Central Asia, neighbouring to Phocari (Tokharians, Τοχαροι, skr. Tukhara) and Thuni (Chineses, Θιναι, skr.Cina). Casiri were regarded as Indians (iam Indorum), but not civilized ones, because they practiced cannibalism (humanis corporibus vessweetieur). This tribe occupied the central part of Hindukush, near the pass between India and Scythia the nomads went regularly through this pass (nomades quoque Indiae vagantur huc VI.55). Identification of Casiri/Cosiri is uncertain, but they are to be compared with Prakrit Kasira (skr. Khasira Mahabharata, Vulgata, VI.10.66: khasirasca tukharasca; Matsya-purana 114.34, Markandeya-purana 57.34: cinascaiva tusarasca bahula bahyato narah). The tribe is to be localized near the modern Nuristan (kafiristan), where even today the nomads cross Hindukush on their way to India.
So the tribes are enumerated in the direction of Himalayas (Imaus) i.e. to the North-East. We can guess only, that unidentified tribe of Isari occupied the Southern part of Hindukush.

 

The words Hemodus and (H)Ima(v)us are met with in the Graeco-Roman works as giving the northern boundary of India. Indian tribes are met with even beyond the Hindukush as per Pliny.

FRAGMENT I OR AN EPITOME OF MEGASTHENES. Diodorus (c. 90-27 BC) II. 35-42.

(35.) India, which is in shape quadrilateral, has its eastern as well as its western side bounded by the great sea, but on the northern side it is divided by Mount Hemodos from that part of Skythia which is inhabited by those Skythians who are called the Sakai, while the fourth or western side is bounded by the river called the Indus, ..

 

FRAGM. IV. Strabo (20 BC-23 CE), XV. i. 11,--p. 689.

Of the Boundaries and Extent of India.
India is bounded on the north by the extremities of Tauros, and from Ariana to the Eastern Sea by the mountains which are variously called by the natives of these regions Parapamisos, and Hemodos, and Himaos, and other names, but by the Macedonians Kaukasos. The boundary on the west is the river Indus,

 

Arrian 129-216 AD (based upon older Alexandrian information)

[Excerpted from Arrian, "The Indica" in Anabasis of Alexander, together with the Indica, E. J. Chinnock, tr. (London: Bohn, 1893), ch. 1-16]

 

1. The district west of the river Indus as far as the river Cophen is inhabited by the Astacenians and the Assacenians, Indian tribes. But they are not so tall in stature or so courageous as those who dwell east of the Indus; nor are they so swarthy as the majority of the Indians. Among the Assacenians is Massaca, a large city, where also is the stronghold of the land of Assacia; and there is also another large city, Peucelaitis, not far from the Indus. These tribes have been settled west of the Indus as far as the Cophen.

 

2. Let me call the country east of the Indus India, and the people Indians. Towards the north of India lies Mount Taurus; but in this land it is no longer called Taurus. It is called by various names in different districts; in one part it is called Parapamisus, in another Emodus, in a third Imaus, and probably it has several other names. The Macedonians who accompanied Alexander's expedition called it Caucasus. The river Indus bounds India on the west as far as the Great Sea, into which it discharges its water by two mouths, Thus also the river Indus forms the Delta of India,

 

3. In the whole of the rest of Asia there are not so many rivers as in India. The largest are the Ganges and the Indus, from the latter of which the country takes its name.

 

6. India is visited by rain in the summer, especially the mountains, Parapamisus, Emodus, and the Imaic range, and from these the rivers flow swollen and muddy. In the summer also the plains of India are visited by rain, so that a great part of them are covered with pools;

 

(Greater) India seems to be from the Hindu Kush down into the subcontinent. Arrian proposes to call India (proper) to be from the Indus eastward. The Astacenians (Hastikayanas or Hastinayanas of Panini) and Assacenians (Ashvakayanas of Panini. In Pali they are Assakas; modern Ashkuns?) then of the NWFP and eastern Afghanistan are called Indian tribes.

They ancient Ashvayanas of Panini (preserving the older Indo-Iranian shv),  can be traced in the closeby Aspasioi or Aspasii (changing the ancient shv- into -sp- as an Iranism; influence of Achaemenids or Iranic Yavanas from Bactria?) , the modern Asp(a)-za(t)i.

 

Pliny drawing upon older material already notices changes in the western border of ancient India.
FRAGM.
LVI. Pliny (23-79 CE) Hist. Nat. List of the Indian Races:

Many writers, however, do not give the river Indus as the western boundary of India, but include within it four satrapies,--the Gedrosi, Arachotae, Arii, Paropamisadae, making the river Cophes its furthest limit; though others prefer to consider all these as belonging to the Arii.

 

We thus do encounter the borders of ancient India as 1) Hindukush in the NW and 2) Indus river in the west in the Graeco-Roman works. This western border has to do with the difference between Bhaarata(varsha) and Aaryaavarta:

 

Bhaarata(varsha) The Vishnu Purana has:
uttaram yatsamudrasya himādreśhcaiva dakshinam |
varsham tadbhāratam nāma bhāratī yatra santatih
||
ViP_2,3.1||
"The country (varsham) that lies north of the ocean and south of the snowy mountains is called Bhāratam; there dwell the descendants of Bharata."


pūrve kirātā yasyānte paścime yavanāh sthitāh // ViP_2,3.8 //
brāhmanāh kshatriyā vaiśhyā madhye śhabdrāśh ca bhāgaśhah / ViP_2,3.9A //
On the east of Bhrata dwell the Kirtas (the barbarians); on the west, the Yavanas; in the centre reside Brahmans, Kshatriyas, Vaiśhyas, and Śhdras,

 

Again, the Vishnu Purana description of Bhaarata is in accordance with that of (Greater) India of the Greaco-Roman historians, and also partly with Babars Hind(ustan).

 

Aaryaavarta. The Baudhayana Dharma Sutra (Titus 1.2.12) quotes a Nidana verse of the Bhallavins, which states that Aryavarta is between the Sindhu in the west and there where the sun rises:

pashcaat sindhur vidharaNii suuryasya_udayanah purah |
yaavat krShThaa vidhaavanti taavad dhi brahmavarcasam  iti ||12 ||

This is in accordance with the pre-Achaemenid work Aitareya Brahmana VIII.14.3 referring to Madhyadesha within the boundaries of Vasha (Sa-vashoshiinara), Ushinara and Kuru, Pancala.

tasmaad asyaah dhruvaayaam madhyamaayaam pratiShThaayaam dishi ye keca
kurupancaalaanaam raajaanam savashoshiinaraaNaam raajyaayaiva te bhiShicyante |

While the Vasha-Ushinaras (Shivis, Kekayas, Madras and Vrshadarbhas) are in the Saindhva area, the Kuru-Pancala are in the Sarasvata area. And this is the Middle country, which means that the (cultural and political) horizon is larger.

 

Aaryaavarta or Madhyadesha in the quotes above reflects India proper of Arrian.

 

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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 06:49
I assume the question is in regards to inner india, (the north indian plain based on the ganges?) that being the case I would say the basic reasons are:  
 
his troops refused to go on, kind of hard to conquer india without troops.  (his macedonian soldiers and officers, obviously he decided he was not going to continue without the core of the army that was the key instrument in his success)
 
Also, he was over-extended and had not really consolidated his new empire.  That really wasn't really a huge factor beyond him needing to be concerned about uprisings/civil war etc. etc.  Though that was one of the major reasons he ended up at the far eastern reaches of persia; consolidating/crushing rebels, besides the other reasons like curiosity, ambition to explore/conquer etc. etc. 
 
Another thing was he was at the end of the persian campaign, which meant' that his troops were exhausted and depleted, even if his troops (macedonians) had been willing to march on they needed time to recover and build up their strength with re-enforcements before beginning a brand new campaign.  (with a reasonable chance of success that is)  The indus invasion of alexanders was not completely a new campaign but more of a final conclusion to the persian one; securing his eastern border kind of thing.  Alexander saw the effort it took to conquer porus' relatively small kingdom and I'm sure he realized it was going to be anything but a walk in the park to conquer india.  Meaning it was an absolute must for him to replenish his army and more than likely increase its size a good amount before realistically considering a successful invasion of the inner/other portions of the sub-continent.  Obviously the decision was to simply call it a day and look to consolidate and possibly look greener pastures elsewhere.
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 18:40
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

So the tall and short of it is that Alexander attacked Persia because the Persians were attacking their homeland.


No. 

           Again please tell me why not. you said that Alexnade may have had some personal reasons for starting the war, however what those personal reasons are is immaterial, for us the reason for the Alexanderonian wars is the banner under which he was able to ally the Greeks under him and raise an Army against Persia which was "Feedom from Persian imperialism"
 
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

We think of Alexander as being something extraordinary after 2500 years. To most of the people of the time he was just another foreign invader, that was why they resisted him so stubornly.


Umm... what are we talking about now? Persians? You asked why did the Greeks resist the Persians and now you are talking about Persians resisting Greeks? Get your stuff straight out... which one are you talking about?[/QUOTE]
              I am talking about the subcontinentals resisting Alexander. They had no reverence for him that is why they resisted him.
 
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

There is a difference between a common ruler and Porus. Porus was a proud man and he would not have been very happy playing the part of (i repeat) a lap dog to Alexander.


Anyone can be a proud person! How do you know how Porus felt? Do you know his every thought?
                The Greeks portrayed him as a very brave and proud man.
 
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Where did i say that he resisted Persian culture. I am perfectly aware that he patronized Persian culture once Persia fell to him and it was a cause of friction between him and his army.


You said:

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Had they accepted Persians as their sovereign they could have become part of the huge Persian empire and that meant a lot of trade opportunities as well as being able to have cultural contact with the rest of the world which meant free exchange of ideas. Yet they resisted the Persians because it was against their pride to accept a foreigner as their sovereign.


You make it sound like "they" are the Macedonians and Greeks (which includes Alexander) that are resisting the Persians. Maybe you should say who "they" are.
     There is difference between someone resisting a culture and resisting foreign imprrialism. Japan resisted western occupation not western culture.      
 
 

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Are you saying that his army poisoned him. It seems a bit like a historical conspiracy theory to me. We know that Alexander got two or three near fatal wounds in his subcontinent campaign started getting ill and finally in Iraq died. 


That made it even worst.
[/QUOTE]
 
First of all that reason for killing Alexander would sound completely lame to me if i was a Greek soldier. Here was a guy whio had been responsible for bringing the Persians down and you kill him, and for what because he indulged in a foreign culture. The Greek culture was under no threat, Alexander only adopted Persian culture to befriend the Persians he did not forecfully imposed it on any other.  
 
 
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 18:49
Originally posted by Justinian

I assume the question is in regards to inner india, (the north indian plain based on the ganges?) that being the case I would say the basic reasons are:  
 
his troops refused to go on, kind of hard to conquer india without troops.  (his macedonian soldiers and officers, obviously he decided he was not going to continue without the core of the army that was the key instrument in his success)
 
Also, he was over-extended and had not really consolidated his new empire.  That really wasn't really a huge factor beyond him needing to be concerned about uprisings/civil war etc. etc.  Though that was one of the major reasons he ended up at the far eastern reaches of persia; consolidating/crushing rebels, besides the other reasons like curiosity, ambition to explore/conquer etc. etc. 
 
Another thing was he was at the end of the persian campaign, which meant' that his troops were exhausted and depleted, even if his troops (macedonians) had been willing to march on they needed time to recover and build up their strength with re-enforcements before beginning a brand new campaign.  (with a reasonable chance of success that is)  The indus invasion of alexanders was not completely a new campaign but more of a final conclusion to the persian one; securing his eastern border kind of thing.  Alexander saw the effort it took to conquer porus' relatively small kingdom and I'm sure he realized it was going to be anything but a walk in the park to conquer india.  Meaning it was an absolute must for him to replenish his army and more than likely increase its size a good amount before realistically considering a successful invasion of the inner/other portions of the sub-continent.  Obviously the decision was to simply call it a day and look to consolidate and possibly look greener pastures elsewhere.
              For how many times must it be repeated that that only 1/5 th of Alexander's army at the start of his subcontinental campaign consisted of original recruits.
              And about looking for greener pastures elsewhere, this region was the richest land in the world, what would be those greener pastures would be i wonder.
 
    
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2008 at 23:42
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Originally posted by Justinian

I assume the question is in regards to inner india, (the north indian plain based on the ganges?) that being the case I would say the basic reasons are:  
 
his troops refused to go on, kind of hard to conquer india without troops.  (his macedonian soldiers and officers, obviously he decided he was not going to continue without the core of the army that was the key instrument in his success)
 
Also, he was over-extended and had not really consolidated his new empire.  That really wasn't really a huge factor beyond him needing to be concerned about uprisings/civil war etc. etc.  Though that was one of the major reasons he ended up at the far eastern reaches of persia; consolidating/crushing rebels, besides the other reasons like curiosity, ambition to explore/conquer etc. etc. 
 
Another thing was he was at the end of the persian campaign, which meant' that his troops were exhausted and depleted, even if his troops (macedonians) had been willing to march on they needed time to recover and build up their strength with re-enforcements before beginning a brand new campaign.  (with a reasonable chance of success that is)  The indus invasion of alexanders was not completely a new campaign but more of a final conclusion to the persian one; securing his eastern border kind of thing.  Alexander saw the effort it took to conquer porus' relatively small kingdom and I'm sure he realized it was going to be anything but a walk in the park to conquer india.  Meaning it was an absolute must for him to replenish his army and more than likely increase its size a good amount before realistically considering a successful invasion of the inner/other portions of the sub-continent.  Obviously the decision was to simply call it a day and look to consolidate and possibly look greener pastures elsewhere.
              For how many times must it be repeated that that only 1/5 th of Alexander's army at the start of his subcontinental campaign consisted of original recruits.
              And about looking for greener pastures elsewhere, this region was the richest land in the world, what would be those greener pastures would be i wonder.
 
    

You are jumping the gun.  Re-read my post; I mentioned in paranthases his macedonian soldiers and officers, saying they were the core of his army.  Meaning they were the elite, implying his army was no longer solely macedonians.

India may have been rich, however it was not a free prize; greener pastures as in territories that are still fertile, perhaps not as much as india, but easier to conquer.  Of course this part is all speculation anyway.
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

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