Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

The Battle of Liegnitz, 1241

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367
  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Battle of Liegnitz, 1241
    Posted: 12-Aug-2004 at 14:58

Battle of Liegnitz 1241

Battle description from Annals of Jan Dlugosz (translation from http://www.impub.co.uk/dlug3.html)
....On April 9, Prince Henry, in splendid armour, rides out from Legnica to do battle with the Tatars. As he rides past the Church of the Blessed Virgin, a stone falls from the roof narrowly missing his head. This is regarded as a divine warning or, at least, an ill omen. The Prince arrays his army on level ground near the River Nysa in four ranks: the first consists of crusaders and volunteers speaking several languages, and some gold miners from Zlotoryja; the second line is made up of knights from Cracow and Wielkopolska; the third of knights from Opole; the fourth of the Grand Master of the Prussian Knights with his brethren and other chivalry; while the fifth consists of Silesian and Wroclavian barons, the pick of the knights from Wielkopolska and Silesia and a small contingent of mercenaries, all under the command of Prince Henry himself. There are many Tatar units, each more numerous and more experienced in battle; indeed, each consists of more men than the combined Polish force. Battle is joined.

The Poles attack first and their initial charge breaks the first Tatar rank and moves forward, but, when the fighting becomes hand-to-hand, they are surrounded by Tatar archers, who prevent the others coming to their assistance. These then waver and finally fall beneath the hail of arrows, like delicate heads of corn broken by hail-stones, for many of them are wearing no armour, and the survivors retreat. Now two Polish ranks are fighting three Tatar units; indeed, have overcome them, for the Polish crossbowmen protect them from the Tatar archers, but then someone from the Tatar ranks starts running hither and thither between the two armies shouting "Run, run!" to the Poles and encouragement to the Tatars. The Duke of Opole, thinking the shouts come from a friend, not an enemy, withdraws his men. When Prince Henry sees what is happening, he laments aloud, but brings up his fourth rank, which contains the best of his troops and with them is on the point of overcoming the Tatars, when a fourth and even larger Tatar force under Batu comes up and fighting is resumed. The Tatars attack fiercely, but the Poles refuse to retreat, and for a while honours are even.

Among the Tatar standards is a huge one with a giant X painted on it. It is topped with an ugly black head with a chin covered with hair. As the Tatars withdraw some hundred paces, the bearer of this standard begins violently shaking the great head, from which there suddenly bursts a cloud with a foul smell that envelopes the Poles and makes them all but faint, so that they are incapable of fighting. We know that in their wars the Tatars have always used the arts of divination and witch-craft, and this is what they are doing now. Seeing that the all but victorious Poles are daunted by the cloud and its foul smell, the Tatars raise a great shout and return to the fray, scattering the Polish ranks that hitherto have held firm, and a huge slaughter ensues.
Among those who fall are Boleslav the son of the Margrave of Moravia and the Master of the Prussian Order. Prince Henry does not desert his men. Surrounded by Tatars who are attacking him from all sides, he and a handful of others try to force their way through the enemy. Then, when he has almost won through and there are only four knights left with him, the Prince's horse, already wounded, drops dead. The Tatars, recognizing the Prince by his insignia, press after him. For a while he and his companions fight on; then his fourth knight brings him a fresh horse taken from the Prince's chamberlain. The Prince remounts and the five make another attempt to break through the enemy ranks; but once again are surrounded. Nonetheless they fight on. As the Prince is raising his arm to bring his sword down on an enemy, a Tatar thrusts his lance into the Prince's armpit and the Prince slides from his horse. The Tatars pounce on the Prince and, dragging him two bowshots clear, cut off his head with a sword, tear off all his badges and leave his corpse naked. In this great battle a number of the Polish nobility and gentry find honourable martyrdom in defence of their Faith. The saintly Jadwiga, then in Krosno, is informed by the Holy Spirit of the extent of the disaster and of the death of her son in the same hour as it happens, and tells this to a nun, called Adelaide.
Jan Iwanowic, the knight who brought Henry the horse that nearly saved him, joins forces with two of the shield-bearers and another knight, called Lucman, who has two servants with him and himself has twelve wounds. When their pursuers pause for a breather in a village a mile or so from the battlefield, the six turn and attack them, killing two of their number and taking one prisoner. After this, Iwanowic enters a Dominican monastery and lives there piously, grateful that the Good Lord has saved him from so many dangers.
Having collected their booty, the Tatars, wishing to know the exact number of the dead, cut one ear off each corpse, filling nine huge sacks to the brim. Then, impaling Prince Henry's head on a long lance, they approach the castle at Legnica (for the town has already been burned for fear of the Tatars) and display it for those inside to see, calling upon them through an interpreter to open the gates.

The defenders refuse, telling them that they have several other dukes, sons of good duke Henry, besides Henry. The Tatars then move on to Olomouc, where they camp for a fortnight, burning and destroying everything round about. Moving on again, they halt for a week at Bolesisko, and, after slaughtering many of the inhabitants, continue into Moravia......

Controversy about the battle

Presence of Teutons Order at Legnica
In the recent studies provided by the polish miedeval scholar Gerard Labuda, some discrepansies in Annals of Jan Dugosz have been disovered. Initially Dugosz specifies four polish units but when he comes to the details suddenly five units appears. Critical analyze of Dugosz's Annals have proved that the fifth unit - Teuton Knights commanded by the Grandmaster Poppo von Ostern - have been added after the Annalas had been completed.. According to this supplement Teuton's unit has been nearly anihilated on the battlefield and the Granmaster has been killed. However according to the other sources Poppo von Ostern has been appointed to the position of Grandmaster in 1252 (11 years after the Battle). Due to the services rendered to the franciscans he has been burried (1263) in the church of St. Jacob , in which Prince Henry had been burried too. Due to this neighbourhood the legend arose that Poppo von Ostern has been killed in the battle of Legnica as well. Nevertheless the most possible theory is that Teutons (a least as separate unit) have never participated in the battle of Legnica...
The number of the warriors
For a long time scholars disagreed to the number of Mongols invaded Poland. There were similar controversies concerning the chief commander of Mongolian army. Batu and Kadaan mentioned by Dugosz have commanded the armies in Hungary and Transylvania. Turning point in a research of this issue occurred suddenly in 1965, when unknown new source has been discovered -"Hystoria Tatarorum" by Franciscan C. de Bridia Monachi. This work has been written on the basis of the relation of Franciscans Jan de Piano Caprini and Benedict the Pole from their travel to Mongolia in 1245-47. The information from Hystoria Tartarorum is fully trustworthy since it was collected directly from Mongols participants of the battle just a few years after this battle.
"... Next Batu went to Poland and Hungary and having divided the army on the border of these two countries, he sent 10 thousands of warriors under his brother Ordu against Poland.."
So 1 tumen of Mongolian warriors commanded by Ordu took part in the invasion against Poland.
Considering the losses incurred by Mongols during the campaign (battle of Tursk, Chmielnik, siege of Cracow, Racibor and actions on Kujavia) Mongols army at Legnica could not be composed of not more than 8 thousands warriors.
The case is much more complicated when we talk about the army of Prince Henry.
Many scholars assumed the number of Christian army on the level of 30-40 thousands warriors. However this assumption is absolutely improbable. We should remember that more than 150 years later, much bigger and richer Poland has set 25-thousands army to fight with Teutons Order (Grunwald 1410). Moreover no knights from Kujawia and Mazowia have fight at Legnica, and units from Lesser Poland have been decimated after the defeats at Tursk and Chmielnik. In the present days polish warfare historians differently estimates the number of Prince Henry army. According to the Prof. Mare Cetwiski it was about 2 thousands warriors, whereas Prof. Gerard Labuda estimates this army on the level of 7-8 thousands. Since none of the parties of the battle have prevailed during the first stage, theory of Labuda seems to be more trustworthy.
 
Reconstruction of the battle
The polish army was arranged in a following manner:
 the unit of Moravian margrave Boleslaw was the avangarde of the polish force
 the units of Sulisaw and Opolan prince Mieszko were behind Boleaw's unit -their  task was to protect left and right wing,
 the unit under personal command of Prince Henry constituted a reserve.

Mongolian army was divided into four units as well. In the first line there were 3 units and behind them the reserve unit commanded by Ordu himself. The Mongolian units on the right and left wing was standing in a long distance from the center unit and was hidden from the polish army sight. Probably Ordu wanted to encircle the attacking polish units by his units from the wings.

red -Poles, black - Mongols
As a first the Bolesaw's unit has rushed to the fight. Covered by the thousands of arrows it has forced his way to center Mongolian unit and has started melee combat. Then the Mongolian units from left and right wings came out of hiding and have encircled Bolesaw's unit. This unit has been nearly annihilated and margrave Bolesaw has been killed. The units of Sulislav and Prince Mieszko have assaulted being in the middle of attack Mongolian units.

Poles have broken the Mongolian formation and started to push them backward. Suddenly the polish knights have heard the voices calling to retreat in polish language and the whole unit of Prince Mieszko thinking that these voiced were coming from the friendly units has rushed to escape. The event is confirmed by "Hystoria Tartarorum"- "... when the Mongols have clashed with prince of Silesia and have been about to withdraw..Unexpectedly Christian units have started to run away.. ".
Seeing the withdrawal of prince Mieszko's unit Prince Henryk moved with his last reserve. The victory was beginning to be again in polish hands, but the Mongols had still some fresh forces - Ordu unit - and also some kind of "wunderwaffe"...

All of sudden in front of Mongols formation a horseman keeping a standard with giant X and bearded head appeared " from which there suddenly bursts a cloud with a foul smell that envelopes the Poles and makes them all but faint, so that they are incapable of fighting" Then the reserve Mongolian unit have stroke Poles deciding the battle. Prince Henry with some of his knights tried to break out trough Mongolian army but have been caught up and captured.

Afterward Henry was decapitated.. His head was sent to Batu, but before that Mongols had shown it (impaled on the spear) to defensors of Legnica, demanding to surrender. After refusal they have burnt and plunder neighboring villages. Then they rushed into direction of Otmochov.

Back to Top
Kalevipoeg View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1458
  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 14:19

"when a fourth and even larger Tatar force under Batu comes up and fighting is resumed."

 

Wasn't Batu in Hungary with Subedei????

There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367
  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 14:34

Fist part of article is battle description from miedeval chronicle (Annals by Jan Długosz). Thus this description is innacurate in many issues. The analize of this innacurances you can find in the next chapter " Controversy about the battle".

As for Batu it is clearly stated:

There were similar controversies concerning the chief commander of Mongolian army. Batu and Kadaan mentioned by Dlugosz have commanded the armies in Hungary and Transylvania

and

Next Batu went to Poland and Hungary and having divided the army on the border of these two countries, he sent 10 thousands of warriors under his brother Ordu against Poland.."
So 1 tumen of Mongolian warriors commanded by Ordu took part in the invasion against Poland..

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 16:40
First, the european armies were better than the mongol's. Therefore, the mongols must be in totall of 100000 to beat the polish. And there were mongol defeats you haven't mentioned.
Back to Top
Hyarmendacil View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 17-Aug-2004
Location: Indonesia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 114
  Quote Hyarmendacil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 23:12

God help me. Another warhead-like figure coming up at the other end of the scale.

By the way, it's a public secret that in the 13th century the Mongols had better discipline and a better grasp of large-scale warfare than their European opponents--the result of having spent practically the whole of the previous century in an almost endless succession of wars. Plus, the Mongol army (in this case that of Batu and the Golden Horde) wasn't strictly Mongol--remember the heavy cavalry of Khwarezm-shah and the Boyars of the Russian principalities? They were only a small sample of the great numbers of military traditions that were integrated into the Mongol war machine. They were also part of the reason why the Mongol war machine could be so versatile and so effective as long as it had a charismatic leader to hold it together. As for the defeats...well, have you ever heard of a major military power that has never faced a single defeat? Tell me if you have.

Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367
  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 02:04

First, the european armies were better than the mongol's. Therefore, the mongols must be in totall of 100000 to beat the polish

No.

And there were mongol defeats you haven't mentioned.

Please specify this defeats...

Back to Top
Mangudai View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Sweden
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 368
  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 08:17
Then we have the controversy regarding the presense of the teutonic knights. While there clearly were many german knights present at the battle, there are lots of evidences pointing at that the teutonic knights weren't there at all.  
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 10:27
but there were Templars at Mohi.
Back to Top
TMPikachu View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 14-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 154
  Quote TMPikachu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 15:30
Originally posted by TJK

First, the european armies were better than the mongol's. Therefore, the mongols must be in totall of 100000 to beat the polish

No.

And there were mongol defeats you haven't mentioned.

Please specify this defeats...

I know of scouting forces being swamped before.

There was a battle, on a bridge I believe, or near one, where the Mongols almost lost because of the sheer numbers of Europeans pressing down on them, but Sudebei came to the rescue, like Gandalf in the Two Towers!

That's probably what it looked like, exept without a castle.



Edited by TMPikachu
Back to Top
Abyssmal Fiend View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2004
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 233
  Quote Abyssmal Fiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 15:33
Hey.. the Jan guy's name shows up as a 3 instead of the letter. What letter is it?

Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!
Back to Top
Hyarmendacil View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 17-Aug-2004
Location: Indonesia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 114
  Quote Hyarmendacil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 22:07

The 3 is some sort of "light" l, I believe. It's really hard to describe if you don't have a native speaker at hand. By the way, the battle TMPikachu mentioned was at the Khalkha River, in the massive reconnaisance campaign that Chinggis Khan sent of under Jebei and Subedei.

Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 22:20

"God help me. Another warhead-like figure coming up at the other end of the scale."

 

Sorry, but there is nothing about me that come up at the end of scale, I promote historical accuracy not baseless biased nonsense. My argument are clearly based on sources and I will debate it with you if you need the source.

Back to Top
Scytho-Sarmatian View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 290
  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 06:16

TJK-

I have a few questions about Poland vs. the Mongols and I hope you or someone else could help me out.  First of all, how did Poland's relations with the Mongols/Tartars develop from 1241 to 1410? Specifically, how did they go from bitter enemies in 1241 to allies in 1410 at the battle of Grunwald/Tannenburg?  Was there a gradual improvement in diplomatic relations after the invasions of the 1200's, and if so, how did this come about?  Did Poland develop trade relations with the Mongols?  Did any other Poles travel in the Mongol Empire other than Benedict the Pole?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367
  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 12:25

First of all, how did Poland's relations with the Mongols/Tartars develop from 1241 to 1410? Specifically, how did they go from bitter enemies in 1241 to allies in 1410 at the battle of Grunwald/Tannenburg? 

This was rather result of lithuanian activity - starting from the beigning of XIV century many Tatars was settled in the area controlled by Lithuanian Grand Dukes. Jagielo before beame the polish king was the ally of Golden Horde and his army marched to help Mamaj against Muscovites during the battle of Kulikovo Polje. In the time of Grunwald, Grand Duke Witold (Vytautas) was supported by Jellal-ad din the son of the former khan Tohtamysh who have been expelled from Golden Horde by Tamerlane.

I don't know many about trades between Poland nad Golden Horde but such relation exist for sure.     



Edited by TJK
Back to Top
Slickmeister View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 131
  Quote Slickmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 15:28

TMPikachu Quote: "There was a battle, on a bridge I believe, or near one, where the Mongols almost lost because of the sheer numbers of Europeans pressing down on them, but Sudebei came to the rescue, like Gandalf in the Two Towers!

That's probably what it looked like, exept without a castle."

 

Me: Yes, in Hungary at a bridge on the Sajo River. Good allusion to Gandalf in Two Towers.



Edited by Slickmeister
Back to Top
cavalry4ever View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator Emeritus

Joined: 17-Nov-2004
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 589
  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2005 at 18:47
We have now more objective studies of this battle. It was a defeat of allied forces (Polish were only one of them). After this battle, there was no European army left between Leignitz and Paris. From Mongol perspective, this was just a diversionary incursion, while main forces creamed Hungarians. European military tactics from that period are not up to par with Mongols. Whole Europe was wide open and only  customs of Mongol succesion (death of Ogatei) forced their army to withdraw. This was one of battles where Europeans ended on the wrong end of bone and sinew composite cavalry bow. Fact that the Europe survived during medieval times depended more on luck than military prowess.
Back to Top
Drunt Ba'adur View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 18-Mar-2005
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Drunt Ba'adur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 10:52
With Sajo River (battle two days after Liegnitz) and Kalka River, those are the most important battles that mongols fighted in Europe. As far as i know, date of Liegnitz battle(9 april) is still celebrated as a victory in Poland because they think that they defeated mongol and forced them to go back to the steppes...
Really, it was a big defeat for poland & teutons. Later with Mohi, the most important armies of eastern europes were defeated.
And as cavalry4ever says, nothing was between Liegnitz and rest of Europe for mongols. But that's another history...


Back to Top
Gazi View Drop Down
Earl
Earl
Avatar

Joined: 16-Mar-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 282
  Quote Gazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 12:30

Originally posted by dsjdsj

First, the european armies were better than the mongol's. Therefore, the mongols must be in totall of 100000 to beat the polish. And there were mongol defeats you haven't mentioned.

The Mongol army was made entirely out of horsemen.They were always moving and the enemy thought they were outnumbered.But Mongol armies were often smaller than their enemies.

Freedom is the recognition of necessity.-Friedrich Engels
Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367
  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 12:49

As far as i know, date of Liegnitz battle(9 april) is still celebrated as a victory in Poland 

So you know more about Poland then me  

Back to Top
Drunt Ba'adur View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 18-Mar-2005
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Drunt Ba'adur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 14:18
Originally posted by TJK

As far as i know, date of Liegnitz battle(9 april) is still celebrated as a victory in Poland 

So you know more about Poland then me  


For this reason i've said "as far as i know"
Thanks, i wouldn't say that anymore since you have told me it(being you polish, i can't dude).
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.082 seconds.