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The Battle of Liegnitz, 1241
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TJK View Drop Down
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Posts: 367 		  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Battle of Liegnitz, 1241
    Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 04:05

Sorry for answering so late, but this maybe can explain it... according what you have said, the following link information is probably wrong.

Yeah, this is wrong - even the date of celebration (in fact 8 days after Corpus Chisti in June).

Lajkonik celebrates the legaendary triumph of a brave bargeman, over Han, chief of the invading Tatars in the in the year 1287. Upon learning of Hans death, his Tatars lost their fighting spirit and fled Krakow. In joyous celebration, the brave bargeman dressed himself as Han and triumphantly rode into Krakow with his men to the ovation of all. The people of Krakow nicknamed him Lajkonik.

It should be mentioned however that this tradition is quite new - the first celebration is recorded in 1738 and the legend is described first time in 1820..so in fact we don't know the real roots of this ceremony

 
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Drunt Ba'adur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 16:44
Originally posted by TJK

I think this is regarding the Lajkonik celebration in Krakw (it is held every year 8 days after Corpus Christi), but in fact this about quite other Tatar expedition which take place in 1287

 

Sorry for answering so late, but this maybe can explain it... according what you have said, the following link information is probably wrong. In case you want to read it...

  http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1104236&pos tcount=2

In Poland nowadays, 09. April, the anniversary of the Battle of Legnica, is celebrated as Festiwal Radosci i Usmiechu Lajkonik (the Lajkonik Festival of Joy and Laughter) during which a Lajkonik (actor dressed as a mounted Mongol warrior) parades through the streets of Krakw humorously jousting with gathered crowds and passersby. For centuries after the battle Poles deluded themselves with the belief that the mysterious withdrawal of the Mongols was due to the heavy losses they suffered at Legnica, but modern historians have disabused Poles of that illusion. As well, everyday in the Rynek Glowny (main square of Krakw) one can hear the famed bugler atop the Kosciol Sw. Mariacki (Church of St. Mary) who plays a sorrowful hejnal song on his bugle, stopping dramatically in mid-note at one point in deference to a myth of a bugler who was cut down with a Mongol arrow to the throat as he tried to warn the citys population of the coming sack of Krakw. (The citys local firefighters provide the buglers for this tourist attraction on a rotating basis nowadays)
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Posts: 367 		  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 07:41

I think Poland was not importance for Mongolians.Mongolian basic target was Hungary

Right, thus only one tumen was directed to attack Poland
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Hardel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 07:21
I think Poland was not importance for Mongolians.Mongolian basic target was Hungary.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Tlaloc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 21:13
By the time the Mongols got around to Europe their armies had a fair proportion of native conscripts in the form of infantry.
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Posts: 367 		  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 14:46

I think this is regarding the Lajkonik celebration in Krakw (it is held every year 8 days after Corpus Christi), but in fact this about quite other Tatar expedition which take place in 1287

 
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Drunt Ba'adur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 14:18
Originally posted by TJK

As far as i know, date of Liegnitz battle(9 april) is still celebrated as a victory in Poland 

So you know more about Poland then me  


For this reason i've said "as far as i know"
Thanks, i wouldn't say that anymore since you have told me it(being you polish, i can't dude).
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Posts: 367 		  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 12:49

As far as i know, date of Liegnitz battle(9 april) is still celebrated as a victory in Poland 

So you know more about Poland then me  
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Posts: 282 		  Quote Gazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 12:30

Originally posted by dsjdsj

First, the european armies were better than the mongol's. Therefore, the mongols must be in totall of 100000 to beat the polish. And there were mongol defeats you haven't mentioned.

The Mongol army was made entirely out of horsemen.They were always moving and the enemy thought they were outnumbered.But Mongol armies were often smaller than their enemies.
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Drunt Ba'adur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 10:52
With Sajo River (battle two days after Liegnitz) and Kalka River, those are the most important battles that mongols fighted in Europe. As far as i know, date of Liegnitz battle(9 april) is still celebrated as a victory in Poland because they think that they defeated mongol and forced them to go back to the steppes...
Really, it was a big defeat for poland & teutons. Later with Mohi, the most important armies of eastern europes were defeated.
And as cavalry4ever says, nothing was between Liegnitz and rest of Europe for mongols. But that's another history...
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Posts: 589 		  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2005 at 18:47
We have now more objective studies of this battle. It was a defeat of allied forces (Polish were only one of them). After this battle, there was no European army left between Leignitz and Paris. From Mongol perspective, this was just a diversionary incursion, while main forces creamed Hungarians. European military tactics from that period are not up to par with Mongols. Whole Europe was wide open and only  customs of Mongol succesion (death of Ogatei) forced their army to withdraw. This was one of battles where Europeans ended on the wrong end of bone and sinew composite cavalry bow. Fact that the Europe survived during medieval times depended more on luck than military prowess.
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Posts: 131 		  Quote Slickmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 15:28

TMPikachu Quote: "There was a battle, on a bridge I believe, or near one, where the Mongols almost lost because of the sheer numbers of Europeans pressing down on them, but Sudebei came to the rescue, like Gandalf in the Two Towers!

That's probably what it looked like, exept without a castle."

 

Me: Yes, in Hungary at a bridge on the Sajo River. Good allusion to Gandalf in Two Towers.



Edited by Slickmeister
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Posts: 367 		  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 12:25

First of all, how did Poland's relations with the Mongols/Tartars develop from 1241 to 1410? Specifically, how did they go from bitter enemies in 1241 to allies in 1410 at the battle of Grunwald/Tannenburg? 

This was rather result of lithuanian activity - starting from the beigning of XIV century many Tatars was settled in the area controlled by Lithuanian Grand Dukes. Jagielo before beame the polish king was the ally of Golden Horde and his army marched to help Mamaj against Muscovites during the battle of Kulikovo Polje. In the time of Grunwald, Grand Duke Witold (Vytautas) was supported by Jellal-ad din the son of the former khan Tohtamysh who have been expelled from Golden Horde by Tamerlane.

I don't know many about trades between Poland nad Golden Horde but such relation exist for sure.     



Edited by TJK
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Posts: 290 		  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 06:16

TJK-

I have a few questions about Poland vs. the Mongols and I hope you or someone else could help me out.  First of all, how did Poland's relations with the Mongols/Tartars develop from 1241 to 1410? Specifically, how did they go from bitter enemies in 1241 to allies in 1410 at the battle of Grunwald/Tannenburg?  Was there a gradual improvement in diplomatic relations after the invasions of the 1200's, and if so, how did this come about?  Did Poland develop trade relations with the Mongols?  Did any other Poles travel in the Mongol Empire other than Benedict the Pole?

Thanks in advance for any responses.
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Posts: 760 		  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 22:20

"God help me. Another warhead-like figure coming up at the other end of the scale."

 

Sorry, but there is nothing about me that come up at the end of scale, I promote historical accuracy not baseless biased nonsense. My argument are clearly based on sources and I will debate it with you if you need the source.
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Posts: 114 		  Quote Hyarmendacil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 22:07

The 3 is some sort of "light" l, I believe. It's really hard to describe if you don't have a native speaker at hand. By the way, the battle TMPikachu mentioned was at the Khalkha River, in the massive reconnaisance campaign that Chinggis Khan sent of under Jebei and Subedei.
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Posts: 233 		  Quote Abyssmal Fiend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 15:33
Hey.. the Jan guy's name shows up as a 3 instead of the letter. What letter is it?

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Posts: 154 		  Quote TMPikachu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 15:30
Originally posted by TJK

First, the european armies were better than the mongol's. Therefore, the mongols must be in totall of 100000 to beat the polish

No.

And there were mongol defeats you haven't mentioned.

Please specify this defeats...

I know of scouting forces being swamped before.

There was a battle, on a bridge I believe, or near one, where the Mongols almost lost because of the sheer numbers of Europeans pressing down on them, but Sudebei came to the rescue, like Gandalf in the Two Towers!

That's probably what it looked like, exept without a castle.



Edited by TMPikachu
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 10:27
but there were Templars at Mohi.
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Posts: 368 		  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 08:17
Then we have the controversy regarding the presense of the teutonic knights. While there clearly were many german knights present at the battle, there are lots of evidences pointing at that the teutonic knights weren't there at all.  
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