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TJK
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Topic: The Battle of Liegnitz, 1241 Posted: 04-Apr-2005 at 04:05 |
Sorry for answering so late, but this maybe can explain it... according what you have said, the following link information is probably wrong. |
Yeah, this is wrong - even the date of celebration (in fact 8 days after Corpus Chisti in June).
Lajkonik celebrates the legaendary triumph of a brave bargeman, over Han, chief of the invading Tatars in the in the year 1287. Upon learning of Hans death, his Tatars lost their fighting spirit and fled Krakow. In joyous celebration, the brave bargeman dressed himself as Han and triumphantly rode into Krakow with his men to the ovation of all. The people of Krakow nicknamed him Lajkonik.
It should be mentioned however that this tradition is quite new - the first celebration is recorded in 1738 and the legend is described first time in 1820..so in fact we don't know the real roots of this ceremony
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Drunt Ba'adur
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Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 16:44 |
Originally posted by TJK
I think this is regarding the Lajkonik celebration in Krakw (it is held every year 8 days after Corpus Christi), but in fact this about quite other Tatar expedition which take place in 1287
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Sorry for answering so late, but this maybe can explain it... according what you have said, the following link information is probably wrong. In case you want to read it...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1104236&pos tcount=2
In Poland nowadays, 09. April, the anniversary of the Battle of Legnica, is celebrated as Festiwal Radosci i Usmiechu Lajkonik (the Lajkonik Festival of Joy and Laughter) during which a Lajkonik (actor dressed as a mounted Mongol warrior) parades through the streets of Krakw humorously jousting with gathered crowds and passersby. For centuries after the battle Poles deluded themselves with the belief that the mysterious withdrawal of the Mongols was due to the heavy losses they suffered at Legnica, but modern historians have disabused Poles of that illusion. As well, everyday in the Rynek Glowny (main square of Krakw) one can hear the famed bugler atop the Kosciol Sw. Mariacki (Church of St. Mary) who plays a sorrowful hejnal song on his bugle, stopping dramatically in mid-note at one point in deference to a myth of a bugler who was cut down with a Mongol arrow to the throat as he tried to warn the citys population of the coming sack of Krakw. (The citys local firefighters provide the buglers for this tourist attraction on a rotating basis nowadays) |
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TJK
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Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 07:41 |
I think Poland was not importance for Mongolians.Mongolian basic target was Hungary |
Right, thus only one tumen was directed to attack Poland
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Hardel
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Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 07:21 |
I think Poland was not importance for Mongolians.Mongolian basic target was Hungary.
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Tlaloc
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Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 21:13 |
By the time the Mongols got around to Europe their armies had a fair proportion of native conscripts in the form of infantry.
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TJK
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Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 14:46 |
I think this is regarding the Lajkonik celebration in Krakw (it is held every year 8 days after Corpus Christi), but in fact this about quite other Tatar expedition which take place in 1287
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Drunt Ba'adur
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Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 14:18 |
Originally posted by TJK
As far as i know, date of Liegnitz battle(9 april) is still celebrated as a victory in Poland |
So you know more about Poland then me |
For this reason i've said "as far as i know"
Thanks, i wouldn't say that anymore since you have told me it(being you polish, i can't dude).
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TJK
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Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 12:49 |
As far as i know, date of Liegnitz battle(9 april) is still celebrated as a victory in Poland |
So you know more about Poland then me
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Gazi
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Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 12:30 |
Originally posted by dsjdsj
First, the european armies were better than the mongol's. Therefore, the mongols must be in totall of 100000 to beat the polish. And there were mongol defeats you haven't mentioned. |
The Mongol army was made entirely out of horsemen.They were always moving and the enemy thought they were outnumbered.But Mongol armies were often smaller than their enemies.
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Freedom is the recognition of necessity.-Friedrich Engels
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Drunt Ba'adur
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Posted: 19-Mar-2005 at 10:52 |
With Sajo River (battle two days after Liegnitz) and Kalka River, those
are the most important battles that mongols fighted in Europe. As far
as i know, date of Liegnitz battle(9 april) is still celebrated as a
victory in Poland because they think that they defeated mongol and
forced them to go back to the steppes...
Really, it was a big defeat for poland & teutons. Later with Mohi,
the most important armies of eastern europes were defeated.
And as cavalry4ever says, nothing was between Liegnitz and rest of Europe for mongols. But that's another history...
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cavalry4ever
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Posted: 07-Jan-2005 at 18:47 |
We have now more objective studies of this battle. It was a defeat of
allied forces (Polish were only one of them). After this battle, there
was no European army left between Leignitz and Paris. From Mongol
perspective, this was just a diversionary incursion, while main forces
creamed Hungarians. European military tactics from that period are not
up to par with Mongols. Whole Europe was wide open and only
customs of Mongol succesion (death of Ogatei) forced their army to
withdraw. This was one of battles where Europeans ended on the wrong
end of bone and sinew composite cavalry bow. Fact that the Europe
survived during medieval times depended more on luck than military
prowess.
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Slickmeister
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Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 15:28 |
TMPikachu Quote: "There was a battle, on a bridge I believe, or near one, where the Mongols almost lost because of the sheer numbers of Europeans pressing down on them, but Sudebei came to the rescue, like Gandalf in the Two Towers!
That's probably what it looked like, exept without a castle."
Me: Yes, in Hungary at a bridge on the Sajo River. Good allusion to Gandalf in Two Towers.
Edited by Slickmeister
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TJK
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Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 12:25 |
First of all, how did Poland's relations with the Mongols/Tartars develop from 1241 to 1410? Specifically, how did they go from bitter enemies in 1241 to allies in 1410 at the battle of Grunwald/Tannenburg? |
This was rather result of lithuanian activity - starting from the beigning of XIV century many Tatars was settled in the area controlled by Lithuanian Grand Dukes. Jagielo before beame the polish king was the ally of Golden Horde and his army marched to help Mamaj against Muscovites during the battle of Kulikovo Polje. In the time of Grunwald, Grand Duke Witold (Vytautas) was supported by Jellal-ad din the son of the former khan Tohtamysh who have been expelled from Golden Horde by Tamerlane.
I don't know many about trades between Poland nad Golden Horde but such relation exist for sure.
Edited by TJK
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Scytho-Sarmatian
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Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 06:16 |
TJK-
I have a few questions about Poland vs. the Mongols and I hope you or someone else could help me out. First of all, how did Poland's relations with the Mongols/Tartars develop from 1241 to 1410? Specifically, how did they go from bitter enemies in 1241 to allies in 1410 at the battle of Grunwald/Tannenburg? Was there a gradual improvement in diplomatic relations after the invasions of the 1200's, and if so, how did this come about? Did Poland develop trade relations with the Mongols? Did any other Poles travel in the Mongol Empire other than Benedict the Pole?
Thanks in advance for any responses.
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warhead
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Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 22:20 |
"God help me. Another warhead-like figure coming up at the other end of the scale."
Sorry, but there is nothing about me that come up at the end of scale, I promote historical accuracy not baseless biased nonsense. My argument are clearly based on sources and I will debate it with you if you need the source.
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Hyarmendacil
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Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 22:07 |
The 3 is some sort of "light" l, I believe. It's really hard to describe if you don't have a native speaker at hand. By the way, the battle TMPikachu mentioned was at the Khalkha River, in the massive reconnaisance campaign that Chinggis Khan sent of under Jebei and Subedei.
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Abyssmal Fiend
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Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 15:33 |
Hey.. the Jan guy's name shows up as a 3 instead of the letter. What letter is it?
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Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!
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TMPikachu
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Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 15:30 |
Originally posted by TJK
First, the european armies were better than the mongol's. Therefore, the mongols must be in totall of 100000 to beat the polish |
No.
And there were mongol defeats you haven't mentioned. |
Please specify this defeats...
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I know of scouting forces being swamped before.
There was a battle, on a bridge I believe, or near one, where the Mongols almost lost because of the sheer numbers of Europeans pressing down on them, but Sudebei came to the rescue, like Gandalf in the Two Towers!
That's probably what it looked like, exept without a castle.
Edited by TMPikachu
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Temujin
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Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 10:27 |
but there were Templars at Mohi.
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Mangudai
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Posted: 10-Sep-2004 at 08:17 |
Then we have the controversy regarding the presense of the teutonic knights. While there clearly were many german knights present at the battle, there are lots of evidences pointing at that the teutonic knights weren't there at all.
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