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minchickie
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Topic: Question on the Magyars Posted: 15-Jul-2005 at 18:19 |
i came across it somewhere. im not too sure where, but it looks like it was from a scene in a movie. maybe Conan, not sure. it is pretty cool!
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Maju
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Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 08:08 |
Originally posted by vulkan02
During the the 10th century the Vikings were ravaging
Europe by sea and Magyars by land. My question is that were the Magyars
a Turkic people or were they more related to the Scythians and
Khazars?? |
None of them. Khazars seem to have been Turkic (Altaic) while Scythians
were Indoeuropeans beyond any reasonable doubt. Magyars were and are
instead an Uralic-speaking people.
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Maju
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Posted: 16-Jul-2005 at 08:27 |
Originally posted by Midas
Magyars are coming from Huns... And Turks too... Yes they
are not turkic; but difference between Magyars and Turks is same as
Turks and Mongolians. |
Not quite. Turk and Mogolians (and Japanese, for instance) are all
supposed to be Altaic (speakers of laguages of the Altaic family).
Magyars instead speak an Uralic tongue (like Finnish, Estonians, Lapps
and Samoyedans). Still Uralic and Altaic families, along with
Indoeuropean and maybe other tongues, might well form a superfamily
that would denote a common origin somewhere in the far (very far) past.
But these groupings are very controversial (see Nostratic, Ural-Altaic, Uralic and Altaic linguistic articles in Wikipedia).
On the other hand, the name Hungarians does seem to come from the Huns
but it is a misnomer based in the fact that Magyars occupied the same
core region as ancient Huns and were as fierce and barbaric as these if
not more. The actual descendants of the Huns were the Bulgarians, later
assimilated by slavic influence.
Some claim that Hungarians (Magyars) are actually descendant of an
obscure Caucasic tribe called Onogurians (hence their name) but this is
just a very controversial and quite unproven hypothesis.
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minchickie
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Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 04:29 |
"The actual descendants of the Huns were the Bulgarians, later assimilated by slavic influence."
As a Hungarian myself i would say its pretty speculative whether we ALL were mixed in. Hungary isnt exactly a small country and there are many villages all over that were untouched throughout the years. The people tend to look different all around. (forget Budapest where it is all mixed) I have relatives that have asian characteristics with black hair and slanted eyes yet they are magyar!
As for the language, it is also currently speculated between many experts.
The fact that Magyar (Hungarian) has connections to the Uralic language family is well-attested and is not the issue here. Perhaps the title should be something like "Uralic Comparisons". However, since the reference language is Magyar and because many of the words in these lists don't have known or definite Uralic origins, the existing title seems appropriate.
(a) Webster's 1913 Dictionary courtesy of Project Gutenberg, defines 'Magyar' as 'One of the dominant people of Hungary, allied to the Finns; a Hungarian'. (There is no 'alliance' with the Finns other than a tenuous linguistic connection separated by about 4000 years!)
http://member.melbpc.org.au/~tmajlath/index1.html
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Maju
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Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 07:58 |
Originally posted by minchickie
"The actual descendants of the Huns were the Bulgarians, later assimilated by slavic influence."
As a Hungarian myself i would say its pretty speculative whether we
ALL were mixed in. Hungary isnt exactly a small country and there are
many villages all over that were untouched throughout the years. The
people tend to look different all around. (forget Budapest where it is
all mixed) I have relatives that have asian characteristics with black
hair and slanted eyes yet they are magyar! |
I've been reading some things about Bulgarians in the meantime and I must correct my sentence: change actual by likely, please.
Uralic peoples should be rather Asian-looking in origing, anyhow.
Think about Samoyedes, who are also Uralic. Finns (and also Lapps), as
Hungarians, have mixed too much with other peoples to be easily
recognizable as Asian. Also,
before Magyars, Avars and Huns dwelled in the Danubian plain and both
peoples seem to have come from Asia, maybe helping in some extent to
those Asian features you mention.
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minchickie
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Posted: 17-Jul-2005 at 08:27 |
yes, certain physical features such as facial bone structure (wide cheek bones) and the mounth shape seem to still be common. Hair and eye color can vary.
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Raider
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Posted: 20-Jul-2005 at 05:14 |
Originally posted by minchickie
Hungary isnt exactly a small country and there are many villages all over that were untouched throughout the years. |
How many years? The Hungarians arrived in Hungary were yet a different kind of people. Here the ancient Hungarians mixed with the locals. I hardly beleive that there are any villages which remained untouched through more than 1000 years.
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Cyprus
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Posted: 27-Jul-2005 at 05:27 |
I am from Czech republic and that is why I visited Magyar many times - and as most of you said Magyars are mixed with many ethnic groups - but each of you forget to mention Slavs - because when Magyars came to Panonia this was inhabited by Slavs and was part of Great Moravian empire(with capital "city" only about 3 kilometers far from my home
Also their languague(in spite of the fact that it is ugro-finic)is greatly influenced by Slavonic languagues - excpecialy terms from agriculture came to their languague from Slavonic ones. But because Hungarians dont want to hear that they are more Slavs than Ugro-finic people - completly no one knows this. It is the same problem as in Bulgaria - former Bulgarians were nomads ver similar to magyars - but they mixed with seven slavonic tribes and formed Bulgarian nation which is counted as Slavonic nation - the only differences is that try to stay separately from their slavs serfs.
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Raider
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Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 05:49 |
Originally posted by Cyprus
I am from Czech republic and that is why I visited Magyar many times - and as most of you said Magyars are mixed with many ethnic groups - but each of you forget to mention Slavs - because when Magyars came to Panonia this was inhabited by Slavs and was part of Great Moravian empire(with capital "city" only about 3 kilometers far from my home Also their languague(in spite of the fact that it is ugro-finic)is greatly influenced by Slavonic languagues - excpecialy terms from agriculture came to their languague from Slavonic ones. But because Hungarians dont want to hear that they are more Slavs than Ugro-finic people - completly no one knows this. It is the same problem as in Bulgaria - former Bulgarians were nomads ver similar to magyars - but they mixed with seven slavonic tribes and formed Bulgarian nation which is counted as Slavonic nation - the only differences is that try to stay separately from their slavs serfs. |
Well this is a real clouded part of history and the exact extension of Greater Moravia is disputed. Slavs lived in the latter territory of Hungary, but the population was low and sparse. Not just slavs, but other people also lived there. (avars etc.) The hungarian languaged received many slav words, but not agriculturals ones. The majority of these terms are turkic. Generally church, and administrative terms received from the slavs. (circa 5 %)
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gerik
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Posted: 03-Sep-2005 at 12:17 |
Actually the majority of church terms are of turkish origin:
These are words like:
Isten - god, bn- sin, esk-swear, bjt-fast,
bcs - saint's-day, egyhz - church, gyn -to confess, erklcs - morality
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%B6r%C3%B6k_nyelv
http://istvandr.kiszely.hu/ostortenet/index.html
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Nagyfejedelem
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Posted: 03-Sep-2005 at 15:04 |
gerik:
I think Raider told about church terms after meeting with Christianity. But quite Turkish word survived the Christianity, too.
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Raider
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Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 08:13 |
The religious terms are turkic, but terms of church hierarchy etc. are slavic.
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DayI
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Posted: 11-Sep-2005 at 12:10 |
Originally posted by Cyprus
I am from Czech republic and that is why I visited Magyar many times - and as most of you said Magyars are mixed with many ethnic groups - but each of you forget to mention Slavs - because when Magyars came to Panonia this was inhabited by Slavs and was part of Great Moravian empire(with capital "city" only about 3 kilometers far from my home Also their languague(in spite of the fact that it is ugro-finic)is greatly influenced by Slavonic languagues - excpecialy terms from agriculture came to their languague from Slavonic ones. But because Hungarians dont want to hear that they are more Slavs than Ugro-finic people - completly no one knows this. It is the same problem as in Bulgaria - former Bulgarians were nomads ver similar to magyars - but they mixed with seven slavonic tribes and formed Bulgarian nation which is counted as Slavonic nation - the only differences is that try to stay separately from their slavs serfs. |
Didnt you confuse bulgaria with Hungary? Bulgars where from origin Turkic (remember Volga Bulgars, Chuvash, karachay Turks), but today they mixed, are slavinized or better to say assimilated cultural and genetical (didnt find any words to describe) by slavs
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Guests
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Posted: 12-Sep-2005 at 02:30 |
Neat paper (related to subject) connecting some ancient dots. Written awhile back. Like to find more recent info though.
http://www.acronet.net/~magyar/english/1997-3/GRAIL.htm
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DayI
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Posted: 12-Sep-2005 at 13:16 |
thanks for the page
anyway a paragraf of that page that interested me damn ALOT!
Arthurchemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>>
Geoffrey Ashe mentions that the Celts have no mythology in which a god by the name of Arthur can be found.>>
In Magyar traditions the name Artur leads us to our strk nation, the Etruscans, and the prehistory of the Turanian peoples. The second syllable of this name tur means bull and a maleness. This word describes our beautiful Suns daily journey and return just as much it describes the circling flight of the falcon, which the Trk group called Turul-bird. In this context Arthurs name means Bull Man, Sun man, whose role is linked inseparably with his return. >>
Britains ancient history begins, as does the Magyar with Fairy traditions which are also an inseparable part of the Arthurian legends. It is interesting to note, that the Mythology of the British Isles preserved a memory, according to which these fairies spoke in the language of the Troyans. As Arthurs name is connected with the Magyar tr, so is the name of Troy. As long as the name of Arthur cannot be tied to any of the Celtic god names, there is ample proof that this name was part once of Magyar Mythology, celebrated today in a festival of the so called Turka-jrs, a part of the Winter Solstice celebration. Arthur, or better Artur was once the personification of the Son just as much as was the Magyar Mikls Toldi. In later Germanic mythologies we find Tor, William Tell with the same role and names. The feminine of this word is tr," which means a well defined, material space, and also a closed circle as does the related English word: turn. The Etruscan goddess Turan was personification of the round Earth and their country; the later Latin word terra was derived from here.>>
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Maju
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Posted: 12-Sep-2005 at 15:20 |
Ehm... most likely Arcturus (=Arthur) derives from Greek arctos (bear), like the star of that name.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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DayI
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Posted: 14-Sep-2005 at 09:37 |
what me interest about that paragrafe is that the "Tur" word is many times used, the word Turan that i tought it whas from Persian origin is used as a God by Etruscians. Also this;
"there is ample proof that this name was part once of Magyar Mythology, celebrated today in a festival of the so called Turka-jrs, a part of the Winter Solstice celebration"
Also the name Etruskians in Magyar language is called as strk its little bit similat to later Turkish empire Gk Trk, Kk Trk. Also if you say ztrk in Turkish, it has a meaning btw ztrk is Turk from the beginning (or something similar to that).
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Raider
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Posted: 14-Sep-2005 at 09:54 |
This whole thing seems to be nonsense.
strk = ancient turk.
smagyar= ancient hungarian
These are composite words. I do not think that they related to Gk Trk.
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DayI
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Posted: 14-Sep-2005 at 09:58 |
Originally posted by Raider
This whole thing seems to be nonsense.
strk = ancient turk.
smagyar= ancient hungarian
These are composite words. I do not think that they related to Gk Trk.
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i only noted a similarity, you dont need to get angry on that.
Ok so strk is ancient Turk? and strk is etrusc in magyar wich means ancient Turk?
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Raider
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Posted: 14-Sep-2005 at 10:58 |
Originally posted by DayI
Originally posted by Raider
This whole thing seems to be nonsense.
strk = ancient turk.
smagyar= ancient hungarian
These are composite words. I do not think that they related to Gk Trk.
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i only noted a similarity, you dont need to get angry on that.
Ok so strk is ancient Turk? and strk is etrusc in magyar wich means ancient Turk?
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I am not angry.
Etrusc is etruszk in Hungarian. Yes the two words (strk and etruszk)may be similar, but I do not think that they related.
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