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Question on the Magyars

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  Quote Kenaney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Question on the Magyars
    Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 11:11

We both come from the onoghur tribe, so if you look at the three we are family. Why is the differences big with Turks and Magyars, its because of they choosed christianity, so they where heavely influenced by latin.

but in my eyes they are the best avar tribe who still keeps his name: magyars.

Like bilge kaan sayed few centurys ago; "Ey Trk, yerde yagiz delinmedikce gk yarilmadikca senin treni kim bozabilir?"

 

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  Quote Kuu-ukko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 14:51
Well before this conversation gets any further, might I remind that pretty much no-one believes in the Ural-Altaic language theory, which was based on grammatical similarities, not on vocabulary. Besides, adding suffixes and prefixes is not a sign of common ancestry. There are languages around the world that have that feature (agglutination). Also, even though the Hungarian language has loan words from Turkic languages, it still is not Turkic. It doesn't even sound so much Turkic. Despite the differences to Finnish, it still is Uralic on the whole.

Thank you and goodbye.


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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 15:16

Originally posted by baracuda


Turkish claims are about as true as the ones that you think are true, in fact they are more viable than the current existant 'theories' of steppe peoples as they are based on archeology so its pretty ignorant to say otherwise... plus its pretty annoying to see another moderator being so sided, and calling turks - dumb.

I'm neither sided toward Turks nor anyone else. in fact your not long enough here to know that in most cases I've always sided with Turks in most issues but by now those topics have exceeded a healthy level and now i will no longer tolerate any violation of the rules. and i did NOT call Turks dumb, read more carefully. and what i said still stands!

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  Quote Kenaney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 15:47
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by baracuda


Turkish claims are about as true as the ones that you think are true, in fact they are more viable than the current existant 'theories' of steppe peoples as they are based on archeology so its pretty ignorant to say otherwise... plus its pretty annoying to see another moderator being so sided, and calling turks - dumb.

I'm neither sided toward Turks nor anyone else. in fact your not long enough here to know that in most cases I've always sided with Turks in most issues but by now those topics have exceeded a healthy level and now i will no longer tolerate any violation of the rules. and i did NOT call Turks dumb, read more carefully. and what i said still stands!

Dont generalize next time if you gonna blaim someone!

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 15:52
well, i can blame you in person if you prefer that!
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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 16:31

Haha

If I need blame, I will surely let you know.

 

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 03:43

 

"We both come from the onoghur tribe, so if you look at the three we are family. Why is the differences big with Turks and Magyars, its because of they choosed christianity, so they where heavely influenced by latin.

but in my eyes they are the best avar tribe who still keeps his name: magyars. "

1. We magyars lived with the onoghurs, but we did not come from them.

2. There is a theory by archeologist Gyula Lszl. According this theory the conquering magyars of rpd were turks, and the so-called late avars of the Carpatian Basin (whom rpd conqured) were finno-ugric. This groups merged and created the modern hungarians just like in the case of the bulgarians. This theory gives answers to many question and itself creates many question, but because of the lack of evidences 95% of the historians reject it.

Accordint to the great majority ogf the historian the magyars are definitively not avars.

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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 11:13
Originally posted by Raider

 

2. There is a theory by archeologist Gyula Lszl. According this theory the conquering magyars of rpd were turks, and the so-called late avars of the Carpatian Basin (whom rpd conqured) were finno-ugric. This groups merged and created the modern hungarians just like in the case of the bulgarians. This theory gives answers to many question and itself creates many question, but because of the lack of evidences 95% of the historians reject it.

Nonetheless thats an interesting theory... but weren't the Avars Turkic themselves?

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Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 15:49
Avars have been considdered Rou-ran by most historians but this is as much debated as the Xiong-nu/Hun connection. David Nicolle mentioned the Avars could have been Hephtalites with a Rou-ran ruling elite that have moved into europe.
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  Quote Monteleone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 15:53

Hello all,

first to answer the original question and statement.

Originally posted by vulkan02

During the 10th century the Vikings were ravaging Europe by sea and Magyars by land. My question is that were the Magyars a Turkic people or were they more related to the Scythians and Khazars??

This site that i found says that they were indeed Turkic but ive been to Hungary and i havent seen anyone looking Turkic at all. In fact most of them look rather German. I guess people in the villages might look different i only stayed in Budapest. Here's the site by the way http://www.hunmagyar.org/turan.html

Here is where the confusion comes in. As we all know the Magyars entered the Carpathian basin around 895. by the early 900's they had taken control of what is now Hungary, Vojvodina, Transylvania, and western Romanian. They continued stretching westward and south.

Around 955 Ad Constantine the seventh, also known as Constantine Porphyrogenitus wrote a book to his son, the future emperor, on how to deal with the surrounding nations and who they are and where they came from. He calls the Magyars, Turks. This obviously was picked up upon by western historians thus associating the Magyars with Turks. Now the dress, weapons and language of the Magyars was very close to the Chazars or Kazars being they where a subject nation of Chazars, who where at one time a subordinate nation of the Turks.

But as to the origins of the Magyars, well Hungarian chroniclers made allot of stuff up such as the Hunor and Magor story. But Constantine does tell his son where these Magyars come from. A place called Lebedias where they where called "Sabartoi Asphaloi" After a Chazarian war with the Pechenegs some traveled east others west who ended up in Carpathian basin.

Now the word Magyars is thought to be derived from one of these Sabartoi clans, the third, the Megris of which Apard is thought to be.

Apard being the well known conqueror along with his ancestor founding the first kingdom caused the name of Magyars to be associated with all the Hungarians/Turks/Sabartoi clans. As to where the Sabartoi come from, well in the 6th century historian Jordanes claims that the Huns split into two groups of people the Sabiri and the Altziagiri.

How closely related the Sabiri are to the Sabartoi, well I'll let you decide but it does give credence to the Magyar claims that they are descended from the Huns.

Now remember that both the Mongols and the Ottoman Turks did invade Hungary through out the 14th through 16th century.

As to the German connection, well as early as the 12th century Hungarian kings offered land to German immigrants in exchange for border defense and then again through out the 17th century to repopulate certain areas

Now this is just one story, which I prefer. Obviously they are many different historical viewpoints on this subject.

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 03:41

"Nonetheless thats an interesting theory... but weren't the Avars Turkic themselves?"

Late-avars, not avars. Since Gyula Lszl was an archeologist his theory based on archeological evidence. The avar and late-avar attifacts differs. (Typical late -avar ornamentation: snakes and spindle) In truth we do not know that this late-avar were turks or not. Usually historian says they were turks, because of "all avar were turks". That is only a supposition. We don not know.

"the Magyar claims that they are descended from the Huns."

This is first appeared in a late XIII. century chronicle, and just in the chronicles. In folk tradition it only appeared in the XVIII. and XIX. century.



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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 17:38
Originally posted by Raider

"the Magyar claims that they are descended from the Huns."

This is first appeared in a late XIII. century chronicle, and just in the chronicles. In folk tradition it only appeared in the XVIII. and XIX. century.

Looks like it is the same kind of theory as the one that Poles descended from the Sarmatians. And it appeared moreless in the same time.

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 12:14
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by Raider

"the Magyar claims that they are descended from the Huns."

This is first appeared in a late XIII. century chronicle, and just in the chronicles. In folk tradition it only appeared in the XVIII. and XIX. century.

Looks like it is the same kind of theory as the one that Poles descended from the Sarmatians. And it appeared moreless in the same time.

YES, hungarian historians often mention this paralel. The hun-hungarian relation was the base of noble rights. Anyway there are many similarities between the ideology the polish and the hungarian nobility.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 19:54

Do Hungarians still like Poles and say that:

Magyar es lengyel jo barat

Karddal s pohar kozt egyarant.

as well as we say in Poland that:

Wegier, Polak dwa bratanki

tak do szabli, jak do szklanki.

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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 14:06
what does that mean?
The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 15:52

its part of the poem written by 19th century hungarian poet and mean in both hungarian and polish:

"Hugnarian and Pole are two nephews

good to saber as well as to glass"

or somthing like that in my free translation into english

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  Quote minchickie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2005 at 05:24

Originally posted by vulkan02

I dont think Hungarians would like to be known as Turks tho even though they might have some similarities with the Turks

 Well many Hungarians were taught to disassociate themselves and their backround with turks but we are still related to Turks, (not so much the mixed ones today but the European/Asian Turks yes! On the other hand the Hungarians in Budapest are culturally mixed in with German, Slav etc.

My family happened to come from small villages and stayed there for generations. Again, Hungarians are mixed looking  so i hear that I look like alot of things. Here is my pic: not my best picture 

 

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2005 at 05:36
Originally posted by minchickie

Originally posted by vulkan02

I dont think Hungarians would like to be known as Turks tho even though they might have some similarities with the Turks

 Well many Hungarians were taught to disassociate themselves and their backround with turks but we are still related to Turks, (not so much the mixed ones today but the European/Asian Turks yes! On the other hand the Hungarians in Budapest are culturally mixed in with German, Slav etc.

I disagree. The close relation with the turks has been emphasised in schools and in the media. And modern Hungarians are undoubtfully mixed with germans and mainly slavs, and not only in Budapest.

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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2005 at 11:07
it seems you have some Turkic features... probably the eyes i would say... if thats really your pic 
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  Quote Kenaney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2005 at 12:25
Ive read on a Turkish newspaper that the Magyar historicals did research of their ottoman history and they found that Ottoman empire gave more to Hungary then they toke from taxes etc. Ottoman empire whas told like it is in Balkan countrys btw evil, armys of monsters etc etc. Now they know the truth...
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