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Relations between Uyghur, Oghuz, Ugur and Hongir

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Relations between Uyghur, Oghuz, Ugur and Hongir
    Posted: 18-Jun-2005 at 00:01

A great site you guys have here. I've been surfing for some time, and decided to post this thread as it's always been a question in my mind. I'd be vey much grateful if you can help me to clarify it.

I was told "Uyghur" is much older name than "Turk". Historically "Turk" appeared after Kok-Turk empire, and then gradually become the common title for all the Turkish tribes. I think the name should have something to do with the older titles such as tur, tura, turan.  But let's discuss it in another thread.

Well,  here what I'd like to know is if there was a union between On-Uyghur and Toqquz-Oghuz even before Hon Empire as some historians stated? What is the relation between the two title: Uyghur and Oghuz? 

What about the "Ugur"? I was told that some nations whose languages belong to this Ural-Ugur group also had tribes called as Uchugur, Otuzugur etc. Is that true? Who are they now? Then what's their relationship with Uyghurs (ancient of course)?

What about Hongirs? Does the title  have something to do with On-Uyghur?

Warning:

Dear Chinese friends: This thread has nothing to do with politics, so pleae step aside, if you know nothing about the history.

Also for my Greek friends, this thread meant to be nothing about Turkish nationalisim, so please don't try to bite.

Don't rely to much on historical books ( like Ihsan), as historical books themselves have so many contradictions.

Don't make personal attacks (Mustafa), I  don't really know much about the history, that's why I'm here to learn something about that.

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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2005 at 07:59

Dear Korshad,

   Hi there. Best wishes and respect. Well, welcome on your own to this forum. Nice piece of writing; you seem to be a logical person. Logicality is what we need here. Anyhow, about your questions, I should say:

1- We've got two groups of Oghuzes (both belong to the ancient tribe 'Oghuz'; but the difference is in the place they used to live). Now, why they got devided? After gaining power in Mongolia, 'Bumin' Kakan decided to send his brother 'Istemi' after the part of 'Juan Juan's (some historians say the goal was 'Avar') that had escaped from Mongolia. Istemi had got ten families of Oghuzes (not tribes; we know they were Toquz Oghuz; those were just big powerful Oghuz families Istemi chosed) besides his own army. After defeating 'Juan Juan's (the battle was somwhere in Northern Turkmenistan and Southern Kazakstan), those Oghuz families decided to stay there. That was the time when Oghuzes got devided; a part stayed in Mongolia (we've got still Oghuzes in Northern Mongolia) and a part in Central Asia. Remember, the number was '10'.

   Uyghurs didn't show up before 'Gok Turk' empire. In the history of 'Oghuz Kan', a part goes to describe who were Uyghurs and what Uyghur means. You know, they consisted of ten tribes.

   In other hand, Moslems called Oghuzes as 'Ghuz' or 'Al Ghuziye'. And the point you've seen in different books that they consider Oghuzes and Uyghurs as same tribes, dates back to Moslem historians. The similarity in name and of course the west part of Oghuzes that had ten tribes, caused this problem.

   That's about it for your first question. Take good care and just take it easy.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish

Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2005 at 08:15

Dear Korshad,

   Hi there. Hope you're doing fine. This is about your second question; about Ural-Ughur.

   Well, Uyghur language goes into the group Ural-Altaic languages. So, we haven't got any Ural-Ughur language. But your goal is probably Finno-Ughur and not Ural-Ughur. About Finno-Ughur, I should say, it's believed that Finish languages's got relationship with Ural-Altaic languages such as Turkish, Mongolian, etc. Now, it's not about all the people in Finland. You know, the original settlers of Finland are 'Iap's (just check the spelling). They haven't got the usual charachteristics of Northern European people; they're not tall, they're not that much blonde. And the most important think is that their language does not belong to Indo-European languages. Now, how come they got there? Well, some people relates the story to Hunes and Secas. They both invaded Europe (most of it). And about Hunes, we know after their last battle, they went to north until they get to a cold, snow-whited place. Without any war, they settled there. This seems to be the start point in the relationship in Finish and ural-Altaic languages. Anyhow, I suppose we need more materials to discuss. But that's what I knew about the issue. Take good care and just take it easy.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish

Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2005 at 08:21

Dear Korshad,

   Hi there. About your second question, I don't know if there's any relationship. Now, not to ignore the similarity beteen them; but the Mongoloid (not Mongolian) tribes who invaded Hungari were Hunes and Secas; not Uyghurs. I know about the relationship between Hunes, Secas and Hungarians. But at that time, Uyghurs used to be in Mongolia. Anyhow, sorry I couldn't be of any help about this issue. Take good care and just take it easy. Take your time, look around and maybe you'll get inspired.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2005 at 09:49
On-ogur can either be traced back to nations of the 'on-ok, or 'on oguz' Turks. Hungarians even have used the Onogur name. In english fairy tales this was translated into the terrible 'Ogur' (troll under the bridge). 

Edited by Seko
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2005 at 05:50

Originally posted by Seko

On-ogur can either be traced back to nations of the 'on-ok, or 'on oguz' Turks. Hungarians even have used the Onogur name. In english fairy tales this was translated into the terrible 'Ogur' (troll under the bridge). 
The Hungarians never used this name. Others used this name for the Hungarians.

There is an old hungarian legend about two brothers Hunor and Magor. According to this myth They hunted a magical stag, and finally they arrived their new home. Hunor was the ancestor of the huns and Magor was the ancestors of the magyars. Historians said that the name Hunor refers not the huns, but the onogurs.

All in all the ancient hungarians were not onogurs, but they had a close relation with them.



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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2005 at 06:14

We Turks call Hungaries  as Macaristan.

And Hungary people as macar.

Macar=magyar?

 

 

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2005 at 06:35
"We Turks call Hungaries  as Macaristan.

And Hungary people as macar.

Macar=magyar?"

I think it is the same. Letter 'gy' is a digraph. It is only one sound, but two letter. (It is an extension of the latin alphabet.) It sounds like d in 'adulation'.

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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2005 at 10:37

Before Kok Turk(Turuk, Tu_jue) empire, Turkic groups of Mongolian steppes were called Tie_le, sometimes also called Gao_che for their big carriage. Tie_le was believed to originate from Ding_ling which had existed since the time of Hsiung_nu(Xiong_nu) empire.

Tie_le comprised 9 larger tribes in Mongolian steppes, Hui_hu(Uighur) was one of them, and they were probably the most powerful one before Kok Turk rised to power. So, sometimes, Chinese dierectly called 9 Tie_le(jiu_xing Tie_le) as 9 Uighur (jiu_xing Hui_hu). Uighur also comprised 9 sub-tribes(it's 11 sub-tribes if 2 newcomers(Bo_xi_mi and Karluk) were added into), and the royal family of Uighur tribes was from Yao_luo_ge(Yaylaqar) tribe.  There was no Oghuz mentioned in Chinese records if Uighur has no any relation linked with it.

If I'm not wrong, I think Toqquz-Oghuz of Kok Turk just marches 9 Tie_le(also called 9 Uighur, i explained it above) in Chinese records, and On-Uyghur probably refered to Uighur's 9 or 10 or 11 sub-tribes. what's meaning of Oghuz or Uighur? maybe, both of them mean alliance or something else.

 

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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2005 at 10:48

As for the number of 9 or 10 or others, I think it just means there were many tribes or sub-tribes, not a really exact number.

Tie_le tribes list, according to Bei-shi, Chinese history book.

Pu-gu

Tong_luo

Wei_hu(Hui_hu, Uighur)

Ba_ye_gu(Bargu, one of today's Mongolian tribes)

Fu_luo

Meng_chen

Tu_ru_hu

Si_jie

Hun...

 

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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 02:29

Dear Yungseiyebu (your real name?),

   Hi there. Hope you're doing fine. Well, thank you very much for your piece; a lot of headache beauase of all that Chinese names  Mate, when there's Turkish names, how come you use Chinese one? Now, I know we just know 2 Turkish names of 'On Oq's. Anyhow, I was wondering if you were a Turk; cause you don't know the meaning of the words 'oghuz' and 'uyghur'. But I assure you they're not the same tribe. Oghuz is an old and of course one of the strongest tribes of all time. It's not my idea; but some historians thinks Uyghurs are a combination of some Turkish tribes. Now, why? Because, there's no name Uyghur before Gok Turk empire. And of course there's a story that goes to explain how Uyghur was formed. You see almost the same history in 'Oghuz Qan' 's story: it says that they were different tribes that picked the name 'Uyghur'; you know, in Turkish it means 'unified'. Anyhow, no one can deny their Turkish element. Take good care and just take it easy.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish

Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 05:27

Thanks Gok-tork.

But I haven't got the answer yet. Your comments have made me more confused. You are saying Oghuz and Uyghur are different people related somehow,  historically Oghuz are more powerful and ancient, and Uyghur only appeared after Kok-turk. Are you a decendent of Oghuz, so that you have  preference to them? You were talking about logic, while you were neglecting the facts.

Uy means clot, merging, allience in Turkish.

Uyghur most probably is Uy-Oghur, means the alliences of the Oghurs. 

It's common in ancient Turkish to  intermix 'r' and 'z'; 'y' and 'n', maybe dialects for western and eastern part. In morden Uyghur language, 'Quzghun' and 'Qurghuy' refer to the same bird. 'koz' is eye and 'kor' is seeing. There are a lot of examples like that.

Well, my point is that, Oghur and Oghuz can probably be traced to the same root, and refer to the same people, only their living location might be different, a group lived in the west steppe and called themselves as "Oghuz", while another group lived in the east called themselves 'Oghur'. (But we have to keep in mind that Turkish people are migrating all the time.)

Oghur (Oghuz) related to the meaning of Aq (White) and Toghur (Just, fair) in Turkish. 'Oghuzhan' might mean King of Justice. Then Oghuz might be used as the name of the Turkish people under his rule.

In the legend, Oghuzhan called the people who supported him to take the power as Uyghurs ( The Oghurs who allianced with him) . This might be the appearence of 'Uy' prefex. Some historians say that Oghuzhan was Tumin or Batur Tengriqut of Hun empire. 

If this is true, then the dominant power of Huns are from Uyghurs (They are just a portion of Oghur (Oghuz) people). We all know that this was well before the Kok-turk Empire.   

What do you think?

Lets solve this first, and then come to ugur and Uyghur relation. I don't think it is that simple as just to be similarity.

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  Quote giani_82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 05:42
I never started reading Lev Gumilev's books on the Turks, probably I'll begin this summer as he is among the highest authorities on the turkic tribes that inhabitted the Steppe.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising everytime we fall."
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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 10:07

Friend gok_toruk, I'm from Inner Mongolia, but my tribe's origins were linked to ancient central asian tribes. 

It's unquestioned that Uighur was one of the oldest and the most powerful Turkic groups in Mongolian steppes before Kok Turk,  which was in fact a very small tribe in altai area, even we couldn't find any historic resources mentioned them before they rised to power and began to conquer Juan_juan and Tie_le tribes(Uighurs, Karluks, etc) in northern Mongolia.  ; And, during  the time of the Kok Turk empire, Uighurs actually kept their power yet, and eventually they replaced Kok turk and established their own empire in Northern Mongolia. 

There's a question that why Kok Turk didn't mention Uighur(if Oghuz had no any relation to it) in their inscriptions, while Kirgiz(Ji_ga_si), Kurlak(Ge_luo_lv), Kitan(Qi_dan) and other larger steppe tribes were recorded. And you have perhaps noticed that Kok turk also didn't mentioned Juan_juan(Rou_ran), which ever were the rulers of Mongolia steppes before the Kok Turk empires, but, Kok Turk mentioned Tatars as one of their main enemies for several time, then who were the Tatar(I'm not saying about Turkic group Tatars in Russia)? do you know Chinese also called Juan_Juan Tantan, then is there any link between Tatar in Kok turk inscriptions and Tantan in Chinese records? I think so. 

By the way, I have to quote those ancient tribes recorded by Chinese, because we are trying to find out some links between Uighur and Oghuz, and there was no Uighur recorded by Kok Turk, while there was no Oghuz recorded by Chinese too.

 

 

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 04:38
Originally posted by Murtaza

We Turks call Hungaries  as Macaristan.

And Hungary people as macar.

Macar=magyar?

I 've heard that Hungary has another name in Turkish ngrs(?). Are there any difference between the two names? (Slovaks has two diffent names for Hungary before and after 1920.)

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  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 05:21

No, I dont know another name for macaristan.

 

Raider do you have much Turkish word? I mean I read from a cite,  some words(not  much) and some words have same root with turkish words.

http://www.hunmagyar.org/

LOL.

A Turanian page,  made  my magars

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  Quote Midas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 05:40
The difference between Turks and Hungarians is like Germans and French... Same language family... But we are different... But both of us are coming from the steppes of Asia...
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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 06:02
Originally posted by Murtaza

No, I dont know another name for macaristan.

 

Raider do you have much Turkish word? I mean I read from a cite,  some words(not  much) and some words have same root with turkish words.

http://www.hunmagyar.org/

LOL.

A Turanian page,  made  my magars

Maybe it is not in use any more. (Tahiri ngrs = Chronicle of the Hungarians, a turkish chronicle is in the Topkapi Museum)

Of course there are many word with turk origin in Hungarian language. The bulk of these came from the ancient turks, and some of them from the ottoman-turks.

Here is some example:

Ancient turk:

gyilkos - murderer

barom - cattle

kapu - gate

tr - cottage cheese

sajt - cheese

bika - bull

kr - ox

borj - veal

kecske - goat

diszn - pig

tyk - hen

bza - wheat

rpa - barley

sarl - sickle

gymlcs - fruit

alma - apple

krte - pear

szl - rape

bor - wine

gyomor - stomach

becslet - honour

 

Ottoman turk:

korbcs - scourge

harcsol - greedy collecting

kv - coffee

martalc - marauder

csizsma - boots

papucs - slippers

dvny - divan

 

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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 11:44

Originally posted by Midas

The difference between Turks and Hungarians is like Germans and French... Same language family... But we are different... But both of us are coming from the steppes of Asia...

The current Hungarian language is not in the same language family as Turkish...the Altaic family.

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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 11:46
A question for Raider, do most present day Hungarians recognize their ancient Turkish brotherhood?  Or is it forgotten or just ignored among most Hungarians?
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