On the subject of Taiwan

well, unless the aborigines overthrow this current constitution, this current government, China and Taiwan are inexorably linked. (it is not enough to vote for an aborigine, because he will be working in a government that wishes for reunification and acknowledges that taiwan is a part of China, (or rather China is a part of Taiwan)).

As you said, Taiwan is a democracy, and the current shares some traits because it was helmed by the KMT, not very long ago. I don't see how a democracy excludes the point that China could very well have a claim, which most of the world acknowledges. But if really Taiwan wants to be independent, it will have to fight a war. It is not a real surprise, because a lot of countries that weren't independent had to fight wars to become independent. Some fail and some succeed.

Originally posted by fastspawn well, unless the aborigines overthrow this current constitution, this current government, China and Taiwan are inexorably linked. (it is not enough to vote for an aborigine, because he will be working in a government that wishes for reunification and acknowledges that taiwan is a part of China, (or rather China is a part of Taiwan)). As you said, Taiwan is a democracy, and the current shares some traits because it was helmed by the KMT, not very long ago. I don't see how a democracy excludes the point that China could very well have a claim, which most of the world acknowledges. But if really Taiwan wants to be independent, it will have to fight a war. It is not a real surprise, because a lot of countries that weren't independent had to fight wars to become independent. Some fail and some succeed.

The current government of Taiwan does not want re-unification.  I can say with great confidence that less than 2% of people wants re-unification with China.  Most of those oppsed to DDP or the green parties simply don't want a change in flag, national name because they are so deeply connected with the KMT past.

The only reason the Taiwanese government can not just declare independence as you said fastspawn, would be the threat of the war.  However, the more threat China gives Taiwan, there's also less chance of unification. 

In fact Taiwan doesn't need to declare its independence.  It is already independent and always have been for the past 50 years.  We just can't gain international recon. because China's oppressing Taiwan's foreign relations anyway they can.

Just look at the Olympics for example.

Edited by hansioux

Originally posted by warhead When you lose tha tcar and that car is picked up by someone else and no one refute their claim, it now belongs to them as is the case with ROC's "picking up" of taiwan.

I am sorry warhead.  please think about what you are writing here.  That might be how it works in 1600s.  But that's not how it worked in 1945.  By the way, I hope you don't just go picking up cars before the owner officially given up the car, or cars that you think no one is claiming for that matter.  That is actually considered stealing. 

It would be like for an police officer is supposed to keep watch of a stolen car, but instead he took it as his own.  Much like Jiang moving his base to Taiwan and declaring it part of China  before the San Francisco treaty is actually an invasion.

Originally posted by warhead No, Liu Yong Fu fought for the Taiwanese to the end, and he is not a Qing appointed official, he has his own standard called the black banner regiment.

You are talking about �B�ú� here.  He also went to Vietnam to fight the French with his black tiger banner.  Does that make the Vietnam resistance against the french all a Chinese effort and their attempt to unify with China?

Edited by hansioux

Originally posted by hansioux [QUOTE=fastspawn]well, unless the aborigines overthrow The current government of Taiwan does not want re-unification.  I can say with great confidence that less than 2% of people wants re-unification with China.  Most of those oppsed to DDP or the green parties simply don't want a change in flag, national name because they are so deeply connected with the KMT past. The only reason the Taiwanese government can not just declare independence as you said fastspawn, would be the threat of the war.  However, the more threat China gives Taiwan, there's also less chance of unification.  In fact Taiwan doesn't need to declare its independence.  It is already independent and always have been for the past 50 years.  We just can't gain international recon. because China's oppressing Taiwan's foreign relations anyway they can. Just look at the Olympics for example.

The current government doesn't want reunification, because they realize that they can never reunify according to their terms, with them at the head. If for some reason, Taiwan could reunify with CHina with Taipei government as its head, it will gladly jump to the offer wouldn't it. THat was their stance for the last 50 years, until the Chinese Government became so strong that their chances of restoring KMT's rule over mainland was zero.

The people of Taiwan are connected to KMT, and connected to the history of Chinese Modern History.

And again i state that, the constitution of Taiwan, begins with this 4 words. THE REPUBLIC OF CHINA.

http://www.taiwan.com.au/Polieco/Government/Constitution/rep ort02a.html#Chap01

THe DPP is trying to whitewash the history of Taiwan. The world can see that, that is why they refuse to acknowledge that Taiwan and China are separate.

"You are talking about �B�ú� here.  He also went to Vietnam to fight the French with his black tiger banner.  Does that make the Vietnam resistance against the french all a Chinese effort and their attempt to unify with China?"

 

No because Liu Yong fu wasn't the dominate power there. Vietnam was already independent, TAiwan wasn't.

Originally posted by fastspawn The current government doesn't want reunification, because they realize that they can never reunify according to their terms, with them at the head. If for some reason, Taiwan could reunify with CHina with Taipei government as its head, it will gladly jump to the offer wouldn't it. THat was their stance for the last 50 years, until the Chinese Government became so strong that their chances of restoring KMT's rule over mainland was zero. The people of Taiwan are connected to KMT, and connected to the history of Chinese Modern History. And again i state that, the constitution of Taiwan, begins with this 4 words. THE REPUBLIC OF CHINA. http://www.taiwan.com.au/Polieco/Government/Constitution/rep ort02a.html#Chap01 THe DPP is trying to whitewash the history of Taiwan. The world can see that, that is why they refuse to acknowledge that Taiwan and China are separate.

Sorry, fastspawn.  I don't know.  Maybe you've never experienced dictatorship (if you are actually from Singapore, I am sure you have) but maybe that is why you can't see beyond the surface.

First of all, the only people connected to the KMT are the new immigrants of Taiwan in 1949.  They have came to Taiwan to avoid communist rule.  These people are only 15% of the population.  When they first arrived, they were less than 10% of the population.  And this 10% ruled the rest of the people.  They forced their language onto the others and forbid the use of other dialects in public places.  They forced their government system, judicial system on the other 90% of the people.  They killed every educated Taiwanese and massacred them in the massacare of 228. 

Then for the next 30 years, only these 10% of the people can be in government positions, including the congressman.  For more than 40 years, the formation of an opposition party is forbiden.  People who voiced against the dictatorship were tortured, imprisoned, and disappeared without a proper trial.

My point is, it is NOT the Taiwanese people's will to have our island called "The Republic of China".  It is not the Taiwanese people's will to still use the Constitution that is actually written for a nation few hundred times its size.  The majority of Taiwanese has nothing to do with the KMT.

You think that if Taiwan actually can get its ways it will unify with China.  Let me tell you, from the last 3 presidencial election that were made under the threat of war, more than 50% of Taiwanese wouldn't unfy with China even if Taiwan can name the terms.  Most Taiwanese are just that, Taiwanese.  We just want to be Taiwanese.

If you want to say Taiwan is part of Chinese history.  Yes, you are correct.  China invaded Taiwan 3 times in the last 200 years.  Taiwan is also part of Japanese and Dutch history. 

It seems like what you are trying to say is if it had been part of Chinese history then it belongs to China.  I think what your logic is what makes Coreans so edgy on the Koguryo issue.

Edited by hansioux

Warhead, if that's your view on the world.  Then there's no need for you to mention the San Francisco treaty at all.  Because the first who gets there owns it.  And in this case, ROC owns it.  And ROC's territory has been redifined to Taiwan, Penghu and Jingmeng, Mazhu islands in 1992.  So it does not belong to the PRC.  It is already an independent nation.  By the ROC constitution and current laws, people of ROC, ie people of Taiwan can vote to decide their own future.  So if we do decide to change the name of ROC, that has nothing to do with PRC.

Too bad you refuse to go out and find the chairman Jiang's 8 point and read the Chinese version on your own.

So this is something from the PRC's news paper:

�S�g:�����l�����j�_������--�Ůa�_�⵪�x�W���D

�����`�z�Ůa�_ ���Ѧb�H���j�|�����j�U�^���O�̴��ݮɡA��׽ͤΥx�W���D�C�L ���ӡA�@�ɤW�u���@�Ӥ���A���L�׬O����j���٬O�x�W�A�P�M���� �߬O�۳s���A�o�����l�������ڭ̪������j�_�C�� �x�W���D�n�a����H�ۤv�ѨM �Ůa�_ �b�^������O�̴��ݮɱj�աA�x�W���D�O���ꤺ�Կ�d�����D�A�O�� �ꪺ���F�A�̲׭n�a����H�ۤv�ӸѨM�C �Ůa�_ ���X�A�@�ɤW�u���@�Ӥ���A�j���M�x�WP�ݩ�@�Ӥ���A�@�Ӥ��� ���D�v�M��g���㤣�e���ΡC�����x�W�֦����D�v�A�b�m�}ù�Ũ� �n�M�m�i���Z���i�n�w�g�����T���W�w�A�]����ڪ��|�Ҥ��{�C �b�^���x�W�O�̴��ݮɡA�Ůa�_ ���A���~�O�m���������nñ�p�@�ʤ@�Q�g�~�A�ۤv�а_�x�W�֤H�C�{ �Ҧb�@�K�E���~�|��Q�C�顧�X�G�O�Φ�M�\���g���G�Q�K�Ӧr���� �G���K�T�����j�ݤs�A������߲\����C�|�ʸU�H�P�@���A�h�~���� �Υx�W�C�� ���ۡA���`�z�S�ޭz�x�W�ۦW�m�g��Ǯa���z�M���֥y�G����m�H�� ��A�����y���m�A�~�|����m�ˡI�� �ڨS���~�䥬�ƥ��� �������`�Υ������T���ܤϹ�x�W�����d�ҿס����롨�A������O �̰��Ůa�_�G���z�O�������~��F����O�H�� ���x�W�������Y�ǤH���ɥ��D�A�d���b���x�W���������롦�A��ڤW �O�}�a�@�ɤ��{���@�Ӥ��ꪺ��h�A�]�¯ٻO���a�Ϫ�í�w�C�b�o�� ���p�U�A�@�ɤW�@���t�d������a�A�|�z�ҷ��M�a�����L�̦ۤv���A �סA���Ůa�_�^���C �Ůa�_ ���A�ۤv�D�`�g�६�ƥ��ͦb�h�~�Q�G��E�餽�}�������߳��A�]�g ��@�ɦU�ꤽ�}�������Y��A�סC���ڨS���Τ���O�q�~�䥬�ƥ��� �A���Ůa�_ ���A�����O��ı�o����M�@�ɦU�ꤽ�}�����@�Ӥ��ꪺ�߳��A���Q�� �O���a�Ϫ��M���Pí�w�C�� �Ůa�_ �Ʊ�A����M��L��a�������u�L�̹�@�Ӥ��ꪺ�ը��A���O���O ���a�Ϫ�í�w�A�P�i���ꪺ�M���Τ@�@�X�������^�m�C �M���Τ@�L�{�N�O�⩤�o�i�c�a�L�{ �Ůa�_ ���A�ڭ̤��ҥH���X�M���Τ@�B���@�������w�A�N�O�{���o�� ����w�ŦX����j���M�x�W�H�����{��Q�q�P�����Q�q�C ���M���Τ@���L�{�N�O�⩤�o�i�M�c�a���L�{�A���L���A�]���A�ڭ� �N�H�̤j���V�O�Ӻ��@�O����í�w�A�H�̤j���V�O�ӫP�i���T�q���A ���ʨ⩤�g�١B��ƪ���y�M�H�������ӡA�H�̤j���V�O���i�b�@�� ���ꪺ��h�U�A�����_�⩤����ܩM�ͧP�A�H�̤j���V�O�ӱ��i�� �ꪺ�M���Τ@�C �����O�A�ڭ̰��M�Ϲ�x�W���A�Ϲ����H�H����覡��x�W�q�� ����ΥX�h�A���Ůa�_���n���D�A���o�O�]�A�x�W�H���b������Ӥ��ب�k���@�P�@��C�� �]�O�̾l��V�^ ���s��2004�~03��14��

I sure hope you can read it.  But if you can't, it says Wen Jia-Bao said on the CCP meeting and to the American reporter that the blood relations between Taiwan and China shouldn't be broken.  And it says Taiwanese came from China, China's is Taiwanese's fatherland.  There is no strait that can stop the homecoming to the fatherland.  The speach was make March 14th of 2004.

Ok, I know this might sound mean, but THERE ARE TONS of such speeches made by the PRC's leaders all over google.  I am sure if you actually do want to talk about this intellegently, you can at least google a little bit on your own.

How's this, to not be mean, if you want more, I'll post more.

Edited by hansioux

"Sorry, but you just had temporary amnesia.  You just said Liu wasn't part of Qing dynasty because if he was, he couldn't represent the independent nation of Republic of Taiwan which declared its independence.  Whether you admit it was a real nation or not, it made its declaration of independence.

Taiwan was an independent nation just like Vietnam."

 

No, its just you that misinterpreted my point, Taiwan is not independent before this, and Liu Yong fu fought Taiwan under the name of Qing despite the fact that he does not represent Qing. This is not the case in Vietnam, in Vietnam he fought for the Vietnamese government and was a official of the government, he was a bandit that the Qing wants to capture at the time so there is no relation here whatsoever.

 

"Warhead, if that's your view on the world.  Then there's no need for you to mention the San Francisco treaty at all.  Because the first who gets there owns it.  And in this case, ROC owns it.  And ROC's territory has been redifined to Taiwan, Penghu and Jingmeng, Mazhu islands in 1992.  So it does not belong to the PRC.  It is already an independent nation.  By the ROC constitution and current laws, people of ROC, ie people of Taiwan can vote to decide their own future.  So if we do decide to change the name of ROC, that has nothing to do with PRC."

 

No, its not de jure independent, since both ROC and PRC consider there is only one china, and Taiwan belongs to the legitimate government, this already belonged to the PRC after it entered the U.N., there is really no need for me to mention the sanfrancisco treaty since the treaty of Ma Guan itself is forced by the Japanese and the Qing was desperate to hold the island.

 

 

"I sure hope you can read it.  But if you can't, it says Wen Jia-Bao said on the CCP meeting and to the American reporter that the blood relations between Taiwan and China shouldn't be broken.  And it says Taiwanese came from China, China's is Taiwanese's fatherland.  There is no strait that can stop the homecoming to the fatherland.  The speach was make March 14th of 2004.

Ok, I know this might sound mean, but THERE ARE TONS of such speeches made by the PRC's leaders all over google.  I am sure if you actually do want to talk about this intellegently, you can at least google a little bit on your own.

How's this, to not be mean, if you want more, I'll post more."

 

the words doesn't show on my screen, but again there is nothing clear about this statement, China is in fact the motherland and that many Taiwanese did come from China and there is a relation. But never had he said that Taiwan is china because both were Han. Ther eis a reason that the PRC didn't claim Singapore or according to your logic, Singapore would be claimed by PRC too wouldn't it?

Originally posted by warhead Despite all these quote, NONE of them was used as on the international law to claim Taiwan, all of which used to justify the control ovver taiwan is political. The fact doesnt' change that the Taipei treaty signed after WW2 gave the Island from the Japanese to the REPUBLIC OF CHINA. And the international court in Den Haag Holland that settle boundaries dispute between countries the one principile that they check is the "duration of permanent sovereignty over the teritories" Qing china has held sovereignity over Taiwan for hundred of years, thus giving up taiwan would mean returning the island to China.

I am sorry, in the Taipei treaty, NOTHING was said about Japan giving Taiwan to the Republic of CHina.  It was simply a peace treaty between the ROC and Japan.  Also restated that Japan give up control over Taiwan but did not say which nation Taiwan belongs to. 

If you want to prove me wrong, I welcome you go find the Taipei treaty and read it for yourself.  Because I surely have.  And I am tired to be the only one posting real facts here.

If you can't read the characters, the character sets is Big-5 traditional Chinese on standard Internet Explorer browsers.

"so chinese people will do anything to protect taiwan province. "

Too bad it probably won't protect it's democracy.