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Arthur-Robin 
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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 Topic: MosesPosted: 10-Apr-2018 at 08:42 |
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Moses ascribed dates range is 1700 yrs bc (Lysimachus, Josephus), to 1690/1662/1652 bc to 1580/1572/1512 bc (NWT, Mercatante) to 1491/1440 bc to 1335/1314/1300 bc (Brugsch, Mahler) to 1280/1276/1215 bc (Price, Spanuth), to 7th Olympiad (Apion).
Moses and/or the exodus has variously been suggested to have been in ancient Egypt either the 4th dyn (someone based on Koran), 5th dyn (Hoeh), 6th dyn (Courville), 12th dyn (Down, Rohl, me), 13th dyn (Hoeh, Rohl, Velikovsky), 17th dyn, 18th dyn (Boysen, Wyatt), 19th dyn (orthodox), 19th-20th dyn (Osarsiph/Arsu), 24th dyn (Bocchoris). ----- Moses in the 6th dynasty of ancient Egypt. Is this Moses' mother Jochabed found? Comparison of Jochebed and Ankhnespepy/Ankhesenpepi (2 and/or 1). Jochebed/Yohaved/Yukabad (compared with Ichabod & Jacob) meaning "yah is glory, glorious, glorified" wife of Amram/Amran (divorced & remarried again) wife also of Elitzaphon Ben Parnach "sister" of Amram's father Kohath [Egyptian kings wife was their sister] or cousin of Amram's father (33rd) daughter of (64 y.o.) Levi (though is a gap between Levi & Kohath) or daughter of Merari or Gershon (Lxx) or daughter of unnamed brother of Levi (Lxx) mother of Aaron & Moses & Miriam mother also of Eldad & Medad aunt of Amram or cousin of Amram buried in tomb of matriarchs in Tiberias (Jewish legend) identified by some with Shiphrah identified with Jehudijah "Jewess" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jochebed Ankhnespepy/Ankhesenpepi/Ankesenmeryre/Ankhnesmeryre 2 meaning "Pepi lives for her", "her life belongs to Pepi/Meryre" daughter of Khui & Nebet wife of Mennefer Meryre Pepi 1 & of Mer-en-re Nemtyemsaf mother of Menankh-Neferkare Pepi 2 (& Neferkare Neby?) daughter in law Neith aunt of Merenre (her nephew) burial pyramid Sakkara (remains found that "could be" hers, burial disturbed, mummy incomplete) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankhesenpepi_II Ankhenespepi/Ankhesenpepi/Ankhenesmeryre 1 daughter of Khui & Nebet sister of Ankhenespepi 2 & Djau wife of Meryre Pepi 1 mother of Merenre Nemtysemsaf 1 (& Neferkare Neby?) burial unknown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankhesenpepi_I Moses and Pepi 2: Pepy 2 came to throne age 6 yrs old reign of either 24 or 31 or 62/64 or 47 or 90/94 yrs. lived 6 y.o. + 94 yrs = 100 yrs? Pepy 2 linked with Ipuwer Papyrus. "After the death of Neferkare [Pepy 2] Egyptian history is involved in darkness and confusion...." "Pepi II's mummy has never been found". "No mummy Pepi 2 never found. canopic chest - empty." (Though "some mummy wrappings in the pyramid of pepy 2".) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepi_II_Neferkare Moses lived 40 or 80 (or 120) years in Egypt & Sinai (& wilderness). Exodus linked with Ipuwer papyrus by some scholars. Courville placed Moses/exodus in/at end of 6th dynasty. (Some link book of Jashar pharaoh names and ages with 6th dynasty.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses (Pepy was 6th dyn (old kingdom), Moses was 12th dynasty (middle kingdom), but the old kingdom Memphite dynasties seem to have overlapped with the middle kingdom Theban dynasties. Sakkara kinglist has Pepi next to last king of 12th dynasty. Kanak kinglist has 6th dyn between 11th & 12th.) Other names in Exodus 6:16-25 might also be connected with 6th dynasty names: Gershon/Gershom ~ User-ka-re? Merari ~ Mery-re (Pepi 1)? Kohath ~ Ati? Teti? Othoes? Khety/Achthoes? Amram/Amran ~ Mer-en-re (mer-r-n-re/ra)? Amminadab ~ Nemtyemsaf/Mentuemsaf/Saemsaf/Horsemsaf? ------ Moses in the 12th dynasty. Moses and the Exodus was certainly in the 2nd half of the 12th dynasty. The 6th dynasty above may/must have been contemporary with the 12th dynasty (see some evidences above). There are many evidences for the exodus being in the 12th dynasty including: The 12 springs & 70 palms of Elim in 'Exodus' may be mentioned in the 11th dyn travel manuscript of Henenu. Moses' date of 480 + c 490 yrs before Nebuchadnezzar in the bible matches Moeris 900 yrs before Amasis 2 in Herodotus. Herodotus confirmed that the chariots/horses were lost in the reign of Sesostris of 12th (or 19th) dynasty. The 12th dynasty story of Sinuhe is similar to the story the flight of Moses, and the name might even possibly be connected with Mt Sinai (or with Seir the Horite?) The 400 yrs from Hyksos king to 19th dynasty king in the San Tablet better match the 480 yrs from Moses to Solomon rather than the 430 yrs from Joseph to Moses. Some say that there were found babies coffins underneath houses at [Lahun or Kahun] which may match the killing of babies in Exodus (refs David Down, etc). We know from Exodus that the Hebrews made mud bricks for the Egyptians, and it is seen that mud brick buildings were most prominent in the FIP and Middle Kingdom. The pectoral of queen Mereret possibly shows Hebrew slaves. Senusret capturing Nubian women in a campaign might possibly connect with Moses Ethiopian wife? Exodus says it was a new king that knew not Joseph, which may match that the 12th is a new dynasty in a different new kingdom to Joseph in the Old Kingdom. Some have suggested that Palmanothes the pharaoh of the exodus in Artapanus might be Amenemhat. (Compare Phamenoph = Amenophis?) Joshua's Jericho in Kenyon's stratigraphy seems to match the MBA strata. Jericho an important place in MBA. MBA walls. MBA debris. "The great wall surrounding it [Jericho] fell in an earthquake shortly after the end of the Middle Kingdom." "the great walls of the city [Jericho] fell a few decades after the end of the Middle Kingdom". The 3 Hermes Set, Shu/Num & Thoth may match the "3 reincarnations Seth [Shem], Moses & Samuel" and roughly match the 3 kingdoms Old, Middle & New, which would confirm Moses is in the Middle Kingdom. Some scholars show that the Ipuwer papyrus story may match the exodus plagues etc story. The events of this papyrus are dated to either the 1st Intermediate Period or the 2nd Intermediate Period near the end of the Middle Kingdom and the Hyksos invasion. Moses himself might be the blue kneeling figure in the pectoral of princess Sit-hathor-yunet (who may be the daughter of pharaoh that found baby Moses). This pectoral seems to have a very prominent Mes glyph around the figure, and water waves along the bottom. The name "Moeris" might also possibly be connected? Moses might also be Amenemhet 4 whose mother Hetepi is similar to Moses' mother Jochebed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amenemhat_IV There is also a Mer-mesha/Imyremeshaw in the 13th dynasty who might possibly also be connected? Finally in the 18th dynasty Amarna letters the Habiru 'Amelut sagaz Mesh' "people of the rebel Mesh" might possibly also be a later memory of Moses? (This might be a similar verification to the "house of David" find?) ----- Pepy 2 & Amenemhet 4 have the same golden Horus name: BN/nomen Amenemhet 4 GHN SekhemBikNebuNetjeru BN/nomen Pepi 2 GHN SekhemBikNebu The orthodox Egyptological ascribed/theoretical date of the 6th dynasty has ranged from 4206 (Petrie) to 3566-3333 (Bey) to 2625/2623-2475 (Breasted, Berlin) to 2345-2181 (Clayton, Shaw, still current conventional consensus). The ascribed/theoretical date of the 12th dynasty has had a dates range of 3459 bc (Petrie) to 2466-2266/2233 (Bey) to 2000-1788 (Breasted, Berlin school) to 1985-1773 (Shaw, present orthodox consensus), to 1892-1680 (Hoeh), to before 1125 (Newton) to 860 bc (Newton). The only main basis for the orthodox Egyptological ascribed/theoretical dates is the two 2 siriadic/sothaic dates records for the 12th and 18th dynasty which have calculated dates of 1872 and 1542 respectively, but the soundness of the sothaic/siriadic dating has in recent years/decades been doubted, and there are many evidences that the orthodox dates are wrong (Egyptian too old/long and/or biblical too late/low/short). Our tentative chronology: 0 dyn -- Nimrod? Seir? Chedorlaomer? 1st dyn (or 2nd dyn?) -- Abraham, Chedorlaomer? -- 2000s bc 2nd/3rd to 4th/5th dyns -- Joseph -- 1800s bc 4th dyn Khufu -- Jacob, Joseph, Judah, Ephraim, Manasseh 5th dyn -- Joseph's/Jacob's sons? 11th dyn -- 70 palms Elim 12th dyn -- (Seir?) Moses, exodus -- 1400s bc 13th dyn & 15th/16th dyn Hyksos -- Edomite kings -- Hammurabi? 18th Tuthmosis -- Tahtimodshi? 18th dyn Amarna/Akhanaten -- Hadad, Genubath, Agur -- 1000s bc 18th dyn Tutankhamen -- Shishak/Susakim -- 1000s/900s bc 19th dyn Ramses 2 Sestura -- Zerah? 19th dyn famine & drought -- Elijah's/Elisha's drought/famine? (19th-20th Osarsiph/Arisu -- ?) (20th dyn?) 21st/22nd/23rd dyn -- princes of Zoan & Noph? 21st dyn Osorkon/Psusennes or 22nd dyn Sheshonk/Osorkon -- So? 1st Olympiad -- 23rd dyn Petubastes -- Isaiah -- 776 (Africanus, Jerome)? 7th Oympiad -- 24th dyn Bocchoris (Josephus)? 26th dyn -- Necho -- 600 bc 27th dyn -- Persians 31 dyn -- Persians. Mubarak -- Rabin, Arafat. Orthodox/coventional old chronology: (Ice Age) (1st dyn -- 3100/3000 bc) (3rd/4th dyn -- Byblos) (5th dyn -- Sahure in Palestine, Dorak treasure) ((4th-)6th dyn -- Ebla -- Akkadian -- 2200s) 11th-12th dyn -- patriarchs, Shechem, Jerusalem -- 2000s/1900s/1800s bc 13th dyn -- Old Babylonian 15th/16th dyn Hyksos -- Joseph, Jacob -- 1700s bc (18th dyn or) 19th dyn -- Moses, Israel, Joshua's Jericho -- 1300/1200s bc 19th dyn -- Philistines 20th dyn -- Saul/Philistines 21st dyn -- David -- 1000s bc 22nd dyn Sheshonk, Osorkhon -- Shishak, Zerah -- 900s bc 25th dyn -- So, Tirhakah 26th dyn -- Necho, Hophra -- 600 bc 27th dyn -- Persians. http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=106 Edited by Arthur-Robin - 11-Apr-2018 at 09:23 |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 12-Apr-2018 at 04:35 |
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Pepi's name is seemingly of unknown meaning in the Egyptological sources that i have been able to consult so far. (The sources either don't list the name or they don't give any meaning of the name.) It is possible that Pepi/Pepy or Papi or Appapos may be connected with Hapi/Hapy/Hape/Hap/Apis the god of the Nile river (and maybe Epaphus?) Perhaps compare the name of (Amenophis son of) Papis, and (Amenhotep son of) Hapu? This could confirm the connection with Moses. Furthermore the hieroglyphs that make-up the name Pepi/Papi are 2 reeds (branches/feathers) and 2 chairs (square boxes). The reeds could connect with the Apis and with the bulrushes/reeds that baby Moses was hidden in among. Also the glyphs for Pepi apparently resemble the glyphs for khered "younger, child". The name Pepi/Appapos is also similar to Apepi/Apophis of the Hyksos dynasties. ("Apepi attested as king's son" (14th dyn) and Apepi 40 yrs (15th dyn) are similar to Moses/Pepi though the Hyksos one might not be connected since the Hyksos certainly came after the exodus at end of 12th dynasty.) Possibly Pepi 1 is also the same person as Moses and Pepi 2, but i'm not sure this is possible or not yet. He has similar reign length figures. With the statue of Pepi 1 and smaller child it has been suggested by some that the smaller child is a younger Pepi 1, and Pepi 1 was formerly considered Pepi 2's father, so this might confirm Pepi 1 & 2 are the same person? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepi_I_Meryre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepi_II_Neferkare https://pharaoh.se/pharaoh/Pepi-II ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepi_III .) Hapi/Hapy/Apis and Papi/Pepi/Pepy have two same/similar glyphs (the double slanted lines is an alternative version of the two reeds according to Egyptian alphabet table) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapi_(Nile_god) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(deity) Edited by Arthur-Robin - 13-Apr-2018 at 09:07 |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 21-Apr-2018 at 12:08 |
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Pithom.
'Exodus' 1 in the bible says that the Egyptians made the Hebrews do forced labour building two "treasure cities" called Pithom and Raamses. These 2 places names have also been considered to also be name of the exodus pharaoh(s) (Ramses and/or Thom. Pithom has been suggested to possibly be Egyptian pi-Thom.) In the conventional chronology they have the exodus in the time of Ramses 2 and Merneptah of the 19th dynasty "1300-1200" bc. (Though some of them have alternatively favoured a slightly earlier time in either the time of the expulsion of the Hyksos in the start of the 18th dynasty, or in the Amarna period.) In support of their theory they equate the bibical Ramses and Pithom with the cities of Piramses and Pitum/Patmu/Peratum/Patumus of Ramses & Merneptah, which two sites are in the north-east delta near the Suez canal. There are many reasons & evidences for that these matches are wrong both time-wise and place-wise. Their "Pithom" is too close to Succoth and to the border in difference to the bible and Josephus accounts. Other alternative scholars including myself see that evidences point to the 2nd half of the t12th dynasty as being the only-best match for Moses and the exodus (though there is also some evidence for 6ht dynasty connections too and it seems that the 6th dynasty overlapped with or came immediately before the 12th dynasty). It also seems that the land of Goshen where the Hebrews dwelt in Egypt was not in the north-eastern Lower Egyptian delta area but was in the Middle Egyptian Giza/Cairo/Memphis/Sakkara/Heliopolis area. There are some possible candidates for Pithom (and/or Thom) in our time and place: Fayum/Pium (near Lahun, Moeris, 12th dyn)?* temple of Tmu in Heliopolis (12th dyn)? "like the god Tmu" of Amemenhet 2? Atum who scholars claim the Ipuwer paprus is linked with (FIP or SIP)?* (Tawi-)Thom in El-Arish inscription?* Tutimaeus/Timaeus/Amuntimaeus just before Hyksos invasion (Manetho)?* Itj-tawy (12th dyn, m/w interchange?) * Pium (12th dyn) and Peratum (19th dyn) are both associated with lakes. * Some scholars show possible connections of Lahun and/or Kahun with the Hebrews in 'Exodus'. * The El-Arish inscription account has matches with the Exodus Red Sea crossing story (including that Pikharoti may be Pihahiroth). * The Ipuwer Papyrus has parallels with the Exodus (plagues etc) story. * Biblical and Egyptian sources imply that the Hyksos invasion came just after the exodus of the Hebrews. Not sure about Raamses yet (though we do have some possible candidates). Possibly Pithom & Ramses are a closely associated pair. If Pithom is Pium then perhaps Pithom & Ramses might be Pium & Labyrinth/Lahun? Edited by Arthur-Robin - 21-Apr-2018 at 12:29 |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 21-Apr-2018 at 12:40 |
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Habiru.
One of the supports of the Orthodox theory that the exodus was in the 19th dynasty was that there are pictures from the tomb of Rekhmire in Beni Hasan of light-skinned men ("probably Semites") doing forced labour making bricks, and records of 'Pr(s) ("Egyptian for Semites") hauling stones for the building of Piramses, plus "Habiru dropping tools and fleeing in the 19th dynasty". There are however several criticisms for these fancied matches: Some sources contradict themselves because when they are promoting their own orthodox theory they say these were forced labourers (slaves), but then they attack our thesis saying "Egyptians never had slavery/slaves". The Rekhmire pictures are of works being done in Thebes not in Ramses or Pithom. The Hebrews made mud bricks they didn't haul stones. The pictures show a few different colours of labourers. They themselves admit that their "1300/1200s" date does not match the bible's ca 1400s date. There is "no trace of Moses" in the dynasty, and orthodox scholars themselves admit there is practically no trace of the exodus events in their dynasty claiming "oh the Exodus events were a minor thing in the Egyptians' experience" (Clayton). If the 'Pr(s) are the Hebrews then what about the Habiru (or 'amelut sagaz Mesh') in Palestine in the Amarna letters of the 18th dynasty (who some scholars do agree might be biblical Hebrews)? The Hapiru appear in records of Tuthmosis 3, Ramses 3, Ramses 4 in Canaan and Egypt both before and after the supposed exodus' estimated time. "Depending on the source and date, the Apiru (Egyptian sources) were variously depicted as nomadic rebels, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, vagrants, etc. The Armana letters complain about attacks by armed groups of Hapiru who spoke many languages but who were willing to fight for anyone in exchange for plunder, equipment, and provisions. In any case, Apiru (or Hapiru) isn't an ethnic identification. The term was used to refer to both Semitic and non-Semitic groups." The name Habiru might be connected with Eber-nari "beyond the [Euphrates] river" of Mesopotamian history? (Compare "Abraham the Hebrew". Though the name Habiru or Sagaz is said to mean "dusty, dirty", "murderer, destroyer", "rebel".) Some scholars agree that the Habiru in the Amarna letters do have seeming possible matches with the Hebrews of the time of Saul/David/Solomon (not of Joshua as same had previously thought). In the capture of Aperius at Megiddo it is suggested there seem to be indicated two Aprus, a greater one and a lesser one, which Rouge considered may match the two Ophras in the land of Manasseh & Benjamin. We here differentiate between the Habiru in Canaan in the 18th dynasty (above), and the Hapiru in Egypt of the 19th & 20th dynasties (next). Regarding the Hapiru/Prs in Egypt: Though the Hapiru are called "the Erythrean people" "in the red country" and "of foreign origin", they are also called "settled people who dwell in this place" ("settlers/inhabitants in Heliopolis"), "sons of kings", "noble lords", "who mount their horses at the king's command" which doesn't match the biblical Hebrews. The word Marina "noble lords" is similar to the word Marya of the Mitanni. Connections of the Aperiu with "knights" and with horses/horsemen also point to being not before Solomon (and his horses/stables)? Waddell said Habiri is a title of Hittite warriors in Akkadian? (Though his Habiri might be the Habiru of Amarna letters?) There are also Cabiri in Phoenician. There is also a difference of numbers of the Hapiru in Egypt (2083, & 800) and the Hebrews in Egypt (600,000 men or 600 families in Exodus). The Habiru throwing done tools and fleeing supposedly being Hebrew exodus is pretty stretched. The 'Brs of a 6th cent Sabean Ethiopian inscription compared by some with the Abirus of Assyrian records might be late Semitic Jews. Meanwhile there are seeming possible evidences of Hebrew slaves or forced labourers in Egypt in the 12th dynasty. The pectoral of queen Mereret of the 12th dynasty seems to show possibly-Hebrew slave workers? Herodotus said Sesostris (12th dyn) had "prisoners of war" doing forced labour in various tasks. There are also other possible evidences for Hebrews/Israelites in Egypt and/or in Canaan before the Hapiru records and Israel name record of the 19th dynasty. Edited by Arthur-Robin - 21-Apr-2018 at 20:00 |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Sharrukin
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Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 10-Aug-2018 at 13:24 |
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Moses cannot be dated to the 6th Egyptian Dynasty for the following reasons:
1. The Tell Amarna Archive. This archive, dated to the 18th Dynasty pharoahs Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV includes correspondences with rulers of other empires such as Shuppiluliash I of the Hittites; Tushratta and Shuttarna, successive kings of Mitanni; Assuruballit I, king pf Assyria; and Kadashman-Enlil I and Burna-Buriash II, succesive kings of Kassite Babylon, as well as Egyptian vassal rulers of Syria-Palestine including Biridiaya, king of Megiddo; Yapahu, king of Gezer; Labayu, king of Shechem; and Abdi-Heba, king of Jerusalem. Clearly, these kings ruled before the Exodus when Egypt was supreme in Canaan. The Tell-Amarna archive dates from between about 1360-1330 BC. 2. Successive pharoahs claimed Syria-Palestine as part of their empire. At the Battle of Kadesh and the resulting Egyptian-Hittite Peace Treaty at the time of Ramses II of the 19th Dynasty, the border of their respective empires was set to the south of Kadesh c. 1260 BC thus ensuring Egyptian mastery of Canaan. Hence, Moses and the Exodus could only have occurred after this date. 3. The successive generations of Judahites from the time of Moses to David are far too small to compensate for the time from about 1000 BC (time of David) to about 2181 (end of dynasty 6) or nearly 1100 years. Nahshon was the Judahite leader at the time of Moses (I Chron 2:10). He was brother-in-law to Aaron, Moses's brother (Exod. 6:23). His generations were Nahshon, Salman, Boaz, Obed, and Jesse (I Chron 2:11). Jesse was the father of David hence only 5 generations passed between David and Moses. Again, far too small to cover 1100 years.
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 11-Aug-2018 at 04:51 |
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Thanks but sorry I am not sure that i really want to debate these topics with you since/after i felt cunning subtle unfair mean/harsh treatment in the Sargon thread seemingly. (At the time since the last replies there I decided to leave the thread and any other related/similar topics involving you, i almost left the forum all together but decided that may not be necessary if i just avoid the problem topics. I felt very falsely humiliated and have not even felt able to view the last new replies in the other thread. I did not like the all just trying to make us falsely look all wrong and not right about anything.)
I and some other scholars do not agree that Amarna Letters certainly indicate that the Hebrews were not in Israel at or before the time of the 18th dynasty, we also dispute the "1300s" bc ascribed date of the Amarna period (it is not definitely proven it is only assertion of "consensus"). The Habiru in the letters are considered to have some seeming possible matches with the Hebrews. Yes some critics might be able to claim doubts but it is untrue to imply that they definitely don't/can't have any connection. Amarna period seems to match about the time of David and/or Solomon in the bible (some have suggested it dates to time of David taking Jerusalem/Zion.) Heba names are similar to (Bath-)Sheba. Some have tentatively linked Mitanni with Midian. A picture of a Canaanite prince in a Lion Throne is similar to Solomon's lion throne. Jerusalem is sometimes claimed to not be called Jeru-salem in the bible before David/Solomon?
It is disputable that Egypt always had total domination of all of Syria-Palestine [and/or that the Egyptians did not mention Hebrews there then (eg the Habiru could be/include Hebrews)]. The bible also does not necessarily exclude possible Egyptian domination of Palestine/Canaan/Israel (eg Tahtimodshi might be Tuthmosis? Ano daughter of pharaoh; Shishak. 'Judges' not mentioning Egypt could mean either Egypt wasn't there or Egypt was there but not mentioned. Hyksos was "Egyptian" rule.) Ramses 2 Sestura seems about the time of Zerah. 19th dynasty and 1200s bc is too late for Moses (who was 480 years before Solomon and only 600 yrs after Abraham in overall biblical post-flood timeline).
The problem is there is no certain proof that the 6th dynasty was really "2181" years before christ or "1100" years before David/1000 bc. The biblical estimates may be roughly right going by all biblical and extra-biblical chronological information (430 years Joseph to Moses; 480 years Moses to Solomon), but the Egyptian dynasties ascribed dates are only modern assertion. |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Sharrukin
Chieftain
Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 11-Aug-2018 at 15:12 |
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We have a solar eclipse dated to the 10th year of Murshilish II, king of Khatti which is dated to 1312 BC, hence his reign began about 1322 BC. As you may know, Murshilish II was the 2nd successor of Shuppiluliumash I of the Amarna letters. In addition, we have Ashuruballit I of Assyria in the Amarna correspondences whose reign is well documented and after that, an unbroken line of kings whose reign-lengths are all know until chronology becomes absolute in 911 BC.
The Habiru have been known from prior to the Amarna correspondences as existing in northern Mesopotamia during the 19th century BC through the Mari Archives. While I would agree that Habiru and Hebrews are probably connected, I would disagree that by Habiru was meant an ethnic group. Rather if you take all the references to Habiru, (they were found all over the Middle East) they were considered a class, since their names were not just west-Semitic but also east Semitic, Hurrian, and even Anatolian. I'm sorry but the mention of Habiru does not constitute the presence of the Israelites in Canaan during the Amarna period. The best that can be said was that the Israelites considered themselves Hebrews by virtue of their Habiru past.
Come on, A-R, Abdi-Heba was the King of Jerusalem during the Amarna Period and it was very clear from the correspondences regarding him and his fellow Canaanite rulers that they were subservient to the Pharoah!!! Bathsheba was NOT male and was NO ruler!!!! Let's not play this name-game again.
Midian comprehended an area near the Sinai and in the northwest of the Arabian peninsula. Mitanni was a region in northern Mesopotamia. The latter was a full-fledged empire spanning the area north of Babylonia including Assyria (before its independence) into southern Anatolia and northern Syria. It clashed with the Egyptians in Syria, hence it could not advance south into Canaan and ultimately came to terms with the Egyptians with marriage alliances and we DO have a series of synchronisms of Egyptian and Mitannian rulers involving those negotiations and other correspondences in the period BEFORE the Amarna Archive. By the time of the Amarna Archive the Mitanni lost its Syrian possessions to the Hittites and ultimately lost its northern Mesopotamian empire to the Assyrians.
That claim might be unfounded. The Execratin Texts which date several hundred years before the Tell Amarna Archive mentions a place which may be Jerusalem. in the form "Urushalimum".
At the time of the Amarna Archive there is no dispute. Canaan was under Egypt. The Egyptian inscriptions subsequent to the Amarna Archive shows them still in possesion of Palestine until the time of the Sea Peoples invasion of "Djahy" the Egyptian northern province of Canaan.
The Biblical narrative is rather clear that Egypt was not in Canaan at the time of the Exodux and after. Egypt had played such a prominent role in the book of Genesis and Exodus that its LACK of mention for the period after the Exodus is telling. The Israelites knew NO Egyptian presence in Canaan. Instead they found a whole bunch of Canaanite city-states ripe for the taking. The Conquest narrative is clear on this. During the time of the Judges the Israelites faced "oppression" from various other kingdoms, but NONE were Egyptian!!!
A-R, this is NOT a problem. Take "1100" years as an estimate. From the beginning of dynasty 6 to the Beginning of Dynasty 19 there were at least 123 kings.....and I am excluding dynasties 10, 14, 15, and 16 because they overlap more continuous dynasties!!! If I was to give an average length of reign for each of these kings (say 20 years) that would have amounted to 2460 years!!!! But, we do know that many rulers had short reigns hence the average length of reign of those 123 kings within the 1100 year timeframe was almost 9 years. Any shortening of the interval and we get ridiculously smaller lengths of reign for these kings. Come on!!!! We had at least one king who celebrated his "year after the 31st count" which means that he reigned at least 62 years!!!! And we KNOW that other rulers ruled more than 20 and 30 years during this time!!!! So, "1100 years" is NOT unreasonable. Lower figures ARE!!!!
You cannot smash 13 dynasties (dyn 6 to dyn 19) into 480 years. No way!!!! Come on A-R lets not get ridiculous about this.
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 13-Aug-2018 at 09:57 |
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Sorry for the delay, i have been busy distracted by the recent Arthur's grave article work. I will try reply the rest of the points not yet answered later if/when able. (If you could try wait for me to answer before dumping a whole lot more replies on me before i finish replying, and so limit extra stress/pressure of too many more replies to reply to in the meantime, i would appreciate it.)
This is not necessarily or proven to be a problem. 1. Moses and the exodus was certainly in the 2nd half of the 12th dynasty. Solomon was Amarna period (18th dyn)? Shishak was 18th dyn? Zerah was 19th dyn? Bible has 480 years from Moses/Exodus (ca 1400s bc) to Solmon/Shishak/1000/900s. Egyptian texts confirm "400 years from Hyksos king to 19th dynasty king" in the San Tablet or Tablet of 400 Years. Josephus confirms the "Hyksos" period was 500 years. 2. Joseph was 2nd/3rd to 4th/5th dynasty. Moses was (6th and/or) 12th dynasty. Bible has 430/400 or else "215" years from Joseph to Moses, or 600 or "430" years from Abraham to Moses. Jewish/Biblical has flood in 1656 a.m. and exodus in 2666 a.m., or about 1000 yrs from Flood to Exodus. Egyptian period from 3rd/4th to 12th dynasty is not certain. There are possible evidences for this period having similar length to the biblical (eg 300 yrs Surid to flood, eg 360 yrs in myth of Horus versus adversaries, eg 700/900 years of Memphite kingdom in Palermo stone). 3. Solomon/Shishak was 18th/19th dynasty. Moses may also/alternatively be 6th dynasty as well as or instead of the 12th dynasty. Moses seemingly might also match Pepi 2 &/or Pepi 1 of the 6th dynasty. This would involve an overlap of the end of the Old Kingdom (6th/8th Memphite dynasties) and the Middle Kingdom (11th-13th Theban dynasties). There are some possible evidences for this like for example the 6th dynasties kings are next to 11th/12th dyn kings in two king lists. I am not certain that Moses was 6th dynasty though; it might be wrong or right. I am more about him being in the 12th dynasty at least if not also/instead the 6th. 4. What or how much evidences do we really have for these 6th to 19th dynasties dates? Egyptian may have alot of kings and dynasties reigns lengths data, but it doesn't seem to have very many ancient key periods dates. You are welcome to post any evidences for the 6th to 19th dynasty period being more than that amount of years if you wish. But the ones i know of are all only modern artificial lists and they depend on assumptions of each and all of the dynasties and kings being consecutive and not overlapping or coregencies. The bibles own text derived dates are more reliable because we have more "fuller" information. But the Egyptian is more artificial/composite. So i would see it as unfair/untrue if one asserts that the Egyptian chronology is more definite/reliable/certain that it really is. One has to consider all evidences not just assume/assert. The FIP is a lacuna and its length is not certain. The king lists have differing numbers of kings, and most of them alot less than the Turin one. Edited by Arthur-Robin - 13-Aug-2018 at 10:10 |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Sharrukin
Chieftain
Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 15-Aug-2018 at 00:28 |
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12th Dynasty was BEFORE Hyksos, so, nope, not possible.
Nope. The king of Jerusalem during Amarna Period was Abdi-Hepa.
Shishak was 22nd dynasty. Zerah the Cushite was contemporary of Asa, king of Judah; Baasha, king of Israel; and Ben-Hadad king of Syria. Zerah the Cushite was NO pharoah. The biblical text makes it explicitly clear that he is NOT said to be a king of Egypt. He may have been a chieftain in the service of the Libyan-Egyptian kings of the 22nd dynasty. There is no way that the kings of Israel, Judah, and Syria could've existed during the 19th dynasty. The peace treaty between Egypt and Hatti demonstrates that the boundaries of their empires was normalized. The Egyptian Empire engulfed the regions of Damascus, Israel, and Judah during this time.
All "the 400-year Stela" describes is the celebration of the 400th year of the establishment of the cult of Set at Tanis during the reign of Ramses. Not even the Hyksos are mentioned on it!!!!!
Josephus is no authority on Egyptian history. He draws from Manetho who numbers have been shown to be exaggerated. Most of the regnal numbers of his kings are greater than the more ancient sources (i.e. Palermo, Turin, Abydos, etc) and so while Manetho is considered an authority on the order of the dynasties, he is no authority on the passage of time of the kings themselves.
Nope. The generations from Joseph to David total 11. In the same period (2nd to 21st dynasties and David and EXCLUDING contemporary dynasties there were at least 194 Egyptian kings in succession. So, no, Joseph dating from as early as the 2nd dynasty is invalid.
I've already discussed this. Nahson the Judahite was the contemporary of Moses and Aaron. The generations from Nahson to David total 5 generations. From the 6th to 21st dynasties (David) there were about 147 kings. The dating of Moses to 2nd dynasty is invalid. If dating from the 4th dynasty then the total number of Egyptians downward would have been 131 kings, so again the numbers invalidate that dating.
I don't even have to break this down into numbers. The number of patriarchal generations in the earlier responses vs. the number of Egyptian kings for the same period is proof enough that the patriarchs could NOT have lived during the Egyptian old kingdom. The ONLY real discrepancy is for the fact that we lack numbers for the reigns of pharoahs of the 9th dynasty and hence for the length of the dynasty itself. All other chronological data can be extracted from either the Turin Canon and/or from monuments of their reigns. Add to this the Sothic Cycle (which you reject) and the newest radio-carbon dates from improved techniques we have from materials of their reigns which remarkably CONFIRM the standard chronology, and we really have a robust chronology!!!!!
You do know that we have solid information for the reigns of Assyrian kings from 911 BC onward, right? You do know that we have some synchronisms between Assyrian rulers and Israelite and Judahite kings as well, right? So, let's look at the earliest of these: Jehoash (or Joash) was the contemporary of Adad-nirari III. According to an inscription of Adad-nirari he received tribute from Jehoash. Adad-nirari III reigned from 811 to 783. We can then date Jehoash about 800 BC since the beginning of his reign is dated variously between 801 and 798 BC. From 800 BC we can tabulate the reigns of his predecessors to Solomon with a reign of about 965 to 931. This puts him squarely coincidental to the end of the Egyptian 21st Dynasty.
This is a LOT to cover and I've run out of time for this, but just as I've given you the courtesy of stating your case, please allow me the time to get that material together. Thanks.
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 15-Aug-2018 at 03:01 |
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I will attempt to answer only one point at a time (and also try to not include so many "new" extra possible connected evidences) in an attempt to try lessen the sheer immense quantity of points you pressure me have to answer. (Look at your replies in this and the other Sargon thread/topic and see how many points and posts you dump on me to have to reply to. You dont/didn't have any pressure from many of my own comments to have to reply to but i do have pressure because yours/theirs is in power/ruling while ours is the "heretical", plus you imply attack while mine didn't attack except defensively. Though granted also in response have replied back answering many of them in the replies posts. Maybe you have more time and freedom than me, but it seems to me you dumping heaps on me as if trying to either waste my time/life keeping me extremely busy, or snowing me out, or trying to falsely make me look falsely bad/wrong.)
I request let us please limit the (debated) points to only one or a few per post/reply. (That is please limit the number of points you pick to attack or dispute/debate. Doesn't mean we can't include incidental details info/ideas in our own posts evidences.) Before i pick one of your last two replies posts to answer, here is something new: Moses and his historical time and place being the subject of this thread/topic, it is appropriate to post in here something we have possibly found-out about king Cushanrishathaim of Judges 3 who comes shortly after Moses and Joshua. We have found that it looks like it is possible that Cushanrishathaim might match Hammurabi of the first Babylonian dynasty? Hammurabi's dynasty has an orthodox ascribed date of ""bc supposedly, but this date is only theory and is not definite and there are evidences that the orthodox date certainly are out from the true matching biblical ones by some hundreds of years (about 400/500 years in Egyptian/Mesopotamian). (Though in his Acts speech Paul possibly implies an extra missing 300/400/500 years between Joshua and Othniel which might reconicle biblical dates with orthodox chronology?) We do have an archaeological synchronism of a king of Hammurabi's dynasty with a king of the 13th dynasty in ancient Egypt though so we know what period he matches in Egyptian even if we don't accept the ascribed dates of the dynasties. Moses was (the 6th dynasty, and/or) the second/end half of the 12th dynasty in Egyptian, and David/Solomon/Shishak who was 400 years later seems to be around about the Amarna period (18th dynasty, with a synchronism with Kassites and Mitanni and Middle Assyrian), and since Hammurabi corresponds with the 13th dynasty, then Hammurabi is around about the same time as Joshua who is just after Moses and comes just before Cushanrishathaim in Judges. C(h)ushan(-rishathaim) (name meaning "blackness" or "great conqueror" or "double wickedness" or -im "plural"?) the king of Aram(-Naharaim) (or "Mesopotamia" / "Syria" / "Assyria" / "heights/highlands of the 2 rivers"), who was "perhaps a northern adventurer", who "passed over the Euphrates", whose invasion/conquest/domination of Israel/Canaan is similar to that of Chedorlaomer of Elam in Genesis, ruled for 8 &/or 40 years. In the biblical book of 'Judges' chapter 3 he is overpowered by Othni(el) ("lion"). One scholar says that "perhaps Salitis was a predecessor of Cushan-rishathaim...?" Hammu-rabi / Hamonurabi / Chammu-rabi / Khammu-ragas / Kimta-rapashti / 'Ammu-rapi / "Pundarika"? (name meaning khammu/khamu/khamala "(white) lotus/plant (of the deep)" or a "god" Hammu or 'ammu "paternal kinsman", + raba/rabi "great" or rapi "healer"?), who is associated with a place named Nahar-Khammurabi, and who is variously stated to have been either a Kossaean/Kassite, or Amorite or West Semitic, and/or was "from Elam" or "from Syria", and who was 'en' "lord" and 'lugal' "king, great-man" of Babylonia, and "conquered all of Mesopotamia", "took Assur/Assyria", (and Aleppo/Yamkhad?) and who was "a victorious general", "his great conquests", and who one source claims about him that he "demanded return of statues taken by Khedorlaomer"? He ruled for either 42/43 or 55 years. "The 11th/6th/1st king of the/his dynasty". One source does propose that the Venus Tablets of his sucessor really date to ca "1419" bc. Some sources imply that he may be close in time to the law code of Moses. Near contemporaries of his include Yantin-ammu of Byblos, Anitta of Kussara/Hittites, Damiq(tu)-ilishu/Dawig-ninishu of Isin/Sealands, and Ilimaii/Ilumailu/Anumaanu/Dingiran of Sealands, or Ittili(nibi) of Sealands, which names we compare with Othniel and/or David and/or Solomon. He in his law code stele's picture seen with the sun god Shamash/Samas/San(si) or Utu. Semiramis/Shammu-ramat (name can mean summat "dove (goddess loves her)", or "loving doves", or shem "name/renown/fame/heard" + aram/ram "exalted/high", or shemiramoth "images/things of Shemiram", or "manifestation of the exalted", or "Semiramis goddesses"?) seemingly might possibly be the same as Hammurabi since they share a number of similarities. She ruled "Assyria" and/or "Babylonia". Her name also connects her with Aram/Syria/Shem too. Semiramis and Hammurabi are both claimed to have had a reign of 42 years length. Other previous candidates for Chushan-rishathaim have included: Rimush/Urumush/Mush/Alusharshid of Akkad? Gushua in Akkadian record? or Puzurinsusinak of Elam? Kashushamama or Guashda of the Gutians? or Shusin of Ur 3 (9 yrs)? or (Ash)urra-iwiti/Erra-imitti of Isin (8 yrs)? &/or Si-imti Shillak / Simti Shilhak priest-king of Elam? &/or his father Lipitenlil/Kush of Isin? &/or his son Kudur-mabuk of Larsa/Elam (Adda of the West)? or Shamsiadad or Ishmedagan of Old Asshur? Tilshaannim (Habur)? or Rim-sin/Eri-aku or Waradsin of Larsa? or Kussara of Hittites? or Kashtiliash of Kassites/Kassa-risat? or "Artashumara followed his father Shuttarna II on the throne, but was murdered by a certain Ud-hi, or Uthi"? or Tushratta &/or Artatama of Mitanni/Hurrians? or Nahrina/Naharain (18th dyn)? or [...]an [...]? or Erishu(m)? or Ashur-rim-nisheshu? or Assu-ris-ilim? or gasan "queen"? or Husham of Edom? or Husheng (Persian)? or Chou Hsin the last Shang emperor (similar to Samson)? tentative tabular timeline: Egyptian -- Biblical - Mesopotamian: 00/0/1st (to 3rd) dyn -- Seir/Horites? 1st (&/or 2nd) dyn -- Abraham 2nd/3rd to 4th/5th dyns (Sekhemhet/Khufu) -- Joseph/Jacob 11th dyn -- Elim (of 'Exodus') Middle Kingdom -- Mari (6th &/or) 12th dyn (Pepi) -- Moses/exodus 13th dyn -- Cushanrishathaim -- Hammurabi/Babylon 15th/16th dyn (Hyksos) -- Amalek/Edom/Judges/Anak "Hyksos afraid of Assyrians" (Josephus) "Hyksos scarab found at Baghdad" 15th to 19th dyn "400 yrs" -- "480 yrs Moses to Solomon" 18th dyn (Amarna) -- David/Solomon -- Kassi/Mitanni/MidAssyrian 18th dyn (Tut) -- Shishak/Susakim 19th dyn (Ramses 2) -- Zerah/Asa? 20th or 21st or 22nd or 25th -- So? 26th dyn -- Necho/Hophra? -- Nebuchadnezzar 27th & 31st dyn -- Persians. Now if you wish to attack/dispute any of this, then please only pick only one or a few points to debate, not dumping heaps/tons/dozens on me. I can't spend all day and/or night, and every day, spending hours and hours doing nothing else but making hard work efforts having to answer all of so many points and posts as you have been dumping on me the last 1 to 2 weeks. I don't know whether you are genuine or ingenuine, but I am not ingenuine myself, i have shown that i tried to answer all of your points as decently as possible. |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Arthur-Robin
General
Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 15-Aug-2018 at 04:09 |
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Sorry I felt i had to answer alot or all. But in future can you please try to pick only one or a few points (and posts) per post/reply/day?
Only if you assume/assert/accept/agree that "Joseph matches Hyksos period". Hyksos (who may be Amalekites/Edomites) period matches the Judges period between Moses and Solomon. Hebrews match shepherd in 4th dynasty, not Hyksos. Two Jacob names in Hyksos period proves that Jacob was long before Hyksos. Shechem and Jerusalem in 12th dynasty Execration Texts suggests that Genesis was before 12th dynasty. Hebron and Tanis founded same time. Tanis is Old Kingdom.
Abdi-heba means "servant of goddess Heba(t)". Compare Jebus Salem (Jerusalem)? Bath-Sheba? and/or Adoni-bezek?
"Sheshonk's campaign doesn't match Shishak's." Moses was 480 years before Solomon not "1300/1200s" ("19th dyn"). Shishak is Susakim and seems to match Tutankh-amun whose battle armour was recently in news. Zerah may match Rameses 2 Sestura/"Sesostris" (Ozymandias). As you know, Ramses 2 does have some "Ethiopian" similiarities. Lubims supposedly Libyan which first mentioned in 19th dynasty, though might be Nubian (l/n interchange in Hamito-Semitic). Tut is linked with the areas. 22nd dynasty has synchronisms with Phoenicians, Assyrians, and possibly King So of Kings/Chronicles. All match the period in bible between Rehoboam and Zedekiah.
You can't assume/assert without proving if/that the details in Josephus/Herodotus is wrong. So the elite are setting them selves up as gods ("authority") and others as slaves/dogs. Orthodox conflicts not agrees with some sources/evidences like the bible, Josephus, Herodotus, etc. Yous pick and choose.
I dispute the "authority" of the orthodox/conventional/consensus "authorities" ancient Egyptian King Lists that they have no proof that they have the correct numbers and orders and reigns lengths of all the kings and dynasties. I also say that i known some king lists contradict the number and have a much low number of kings.
The problem is you/they are assuming and asserting that you have tabulated that correct number and order and reigns lengths of all "194" "kings". Hebrew patriarchs lived longer than civilised people. Longevity is known in Caucasus & Andes. People up high and rural tend to live longer than low land populations. How long is a "generation". Doesn't the bible sometimes have inserted or omitted generations? Someone said in a thread/topic some time ago that in their own family tree the number of generations can vary for same time period. Consider how Menes date has ranged from 5000s to 2000s bc in conventional scholarship. Some decades ago the 1st dynasty was "lowered by 400 years" after newly found info that some dynasties were contemporary. Yous assert that your list at present is now probably correct/accurate, but it might not be and there are evidences that it is not, but yous force the "expert" "authority" to continue to be accepted unless/until there is such quality and/or quantity evidence to force to accept a change, but in mean time yous pick and choose and yous unfairly refuse to admit some quality and qauntity evidences.
ditto last one. All hinges on yous being correct in the number and order and reigns lengths of kings. How many kings/priests/apis bulls/architects is different in quite a few ancient Egyptian sources. I will go and compile a list of the number of pharaohs according to different king lists / sources proving you are flawed to authortatively assert that yous have the correct full Egyptian king list. The Turin K List is one of the most/more iffy.
History knows of cases of misleading false coincidences/confirmations. The orthodox chronology has many places where there are anti-confirmations of things that don't match or conflict with some sources/evidences like the Bible. For example they say "nothing much found in this level at Jericho which we assert to be time of Joshua" (and meanwhile there is a match for Joshua's invasion in earlier level in Jericho). Confirmations must be fit with all known facts/evidences. Otherwise yous are only picking to accept some things and chosing to reject other things merely because they don't agree/fit with the "expert" "authority" reigning views. Carbon dating is proven unreliable/problematic. Also you claim it agrees in some cases but in other cases it conflicts like for example the Thera eruption date.
Jehoash/Joash syncronism with Assyrian Adadnirari "3" is acceptable. Solomon was a number of years/kings/generations before Joash is acceptable. You then jump to Solomon corresponds to 21st Egyptian dynasty without showing/explaining any reason why/how. To get this you have to prove what time either/both a near Biblical event and/or a near Assyrian event synchronizes with in Egyptian. The number of generations/kings may be flawed in artificially tabulated Egyptian/Mesopotamian king lists. You are aware that 22nd dynasty names are similar to Assyrian/Babylonian names Tiglath & Sargon? Middle Assyrian (just before Neo-Assyrian) king Assurubalit synchronizes with Amarna letters of 18th dynasty. And a late reply to the not replied to earlier post:
I strongly doubt that the eclipse date is truly correct, though i have no way to prove it (except to show evidences the dates are wrong). This is actually pretty shaky because there have been astronmical and other changes in ancient times which mean alterations in alignments and/or rates/speeds (eg Joshua halting sun). I also do not agree that the Assyrian kings line is "unbroken", or that their reign-lengths are accurately "all known". Again this is shaky because it all hinges on whether the artificially reconstructed king list is or is not correct in all reigns and kings and dynasties lengths and orders. False seeming dates coincidences are known/possible in history (eg Mayan date and orthodox Menes date). I do agree though that Ashuruballit is contemprary of Amarna because this is a archaeological synchronism from Amarna letters proof. But i do not agree that either/both of them are "1300" years before christ. They are seemingly about 300 years to early/old/long/high (as they really seem about the time of David or Solomon).
See an earlier post/reply above where i give a number of historical details about the Habiru. There are names in Egyptian (and/or Mesopotamian) records that might match or include Hebrews in Palestine or Egypt, including the Habirus and the Hyksos. Habiru/Prs name is similar to either: Eber/Heber, Hebrew/Ivrit, Eber-nari, Cabiri, Abel/Hevel, Hebron, Herusha, Arab, Abram/Abraham, Ebla, Avaris? Not sure it the similarity with Abel/Hebel and Bedouins is interesting? Habiru called Sagaz Mesh "people of rebel Moses?" Labayu "Lion". David as Lion Of Judah? "Jews are not a race or religion". "Celt/Aryan is not a ". There are other names in world history which are used for peoples but which are technically not ethnic names. Examples maybe include: MerryMen? Pioneers? Fathers? Puritans? Slavs? Maori "ordinary/common"? Marya/Marina? Nazis? Bedouins? Goyim? Barbarians? Soviet? Wolfhead? Welsh "foreign"? Indians? Aborigines? Panis? Kafir "infidel"? Set? Robehod? Masons? Aliens? Antichrist? Sua-chie? Skraelings? Boers? Afrikaners? Junker? Incas? Blacks? Yid? "Huns"? Bugger? Caledonian bears? Saints? Aamu? Mazoi? Pariah? Saracen? Amurru? Benjamites/Yaminites? SeaPeoples? Hyksos? Philistines "immigrants/invaders"? Admu? Savage? Turanian? Mleccha? Helots? Gentiles? Pygmies? Bushmen? Sanddweller? Some of these are similar to what Habiru is thought to have meant ("bandits"). Some of the Habiru of the Amarna letters can/could match the biblical Hebrews of David's period. Sure it might not necessarily be definite or proven yet that they are the same, and it is possible they might not be, but you can't imply they are/can not maybe be connected just because they might not be (or could be not). There are enough evidences reasons for it being possible (not just like "arguing lack of evidence"). Not all Habiru/Habiru are Hebrews/Habiru. The Amarna period's overall various historical details seem to best match around about David' &/or Solomon's times in the bible, matching that time better than the usual claimed matching period of a time of "about halfway between Joseph and Moses/Joshua", while the latter time/period doesn't match Amarna as much/well as our one. Agur in Proverbs 30, and/or Genubath in Kings/Chronciles seem to match Akhenaten/Khunaton and/or Ankhenmaat and/or Amarna herectic kings period. Shishak/Susakim seems to maybe match Tutankh-amen whose battle armour was recently mentioned in news.
Doesn't matter that one is male and other is female. It still shows possible evidence that they are close in time because the names/languages similar. You can not deny that spellings of Heba/Hipa are similar to Sheba (and Eve?) Compare that some claim Shaddai is Hadad/Adad? Heba(t) was a goddess name (female); Beer-sheba is not a female. Abdi means "servant/slave of" like in Abdullah; bath/bat is "daughter of". Queen of Sheba's gender is possibly disputed/disputable; Smenkhkare's gender has also been disputed; Akhenaten's gender was disputed. Queen of Sheba is by some thought to be Egyptian ruler. Hatshepsut (Makera) is similar to Queen of Sheba (Makeda) and/or Bathsheba. Also considering the elements like abd and bath, their partners/husbands/wives/queens might also be called by a the -Heba name? Some Amarna Letters persons etc names are claimed to be Mitanni and Indo-Aryan. Biblical "threshing floor of Araunah" at Jerusalem is similar to Aryan/Hurrian name Varuna/Aruna. Taduhepa & Giluhepa are females with names similar to Abdi-heba. Amarna letters have many similarities with period of United Monarchy. Abdi-Heba is similar to either Jebus, or Bath-Sheba or Queen of Sheba, or Adonibezek. I wonder if Abd-heba likely is related to Jebus as "servant of Heba/Jebus"?
I agree that Mitanni synchronism with Amarna. Amarna seemingly has matches with the time of David/Solomon. I agree that perhaps Midian may not match Mitanni, though i am not certain either way. Midianites in Judges were called "Easterners". It is not just the Mitanni & Midian similarity. There is also Horites & Hurrian & Kharu; and Shuah similar name in Mesopotamia (ref Hrozny). Araunah similar to Aruna/Varuna Names in Canaan in Amarna letters are "Mitanni/Indo-Aryan/Hurrian/Marya" (eg Heba, Aruna/Varuna, Marina/Marya, Mitra) Midian might be similar to either Mitanni, or Mari (d/r interchange)? Karkor on Euphrates mentioned in the Judges story. (Tusratta similar to David??) Midian could be Arabia not just "Sinai". Midian in modern maps is around Jebel Lawz. Some linked it with Medina. Arabia is whole area between Iraq and Palestine.
It depends on whether the names in Execration Texts (and/or in Amarna Letters) are or are not Shechem and/or Jerusalem. If they are, then our opinion that it seems to move Egyptian older in the biblical timeline is possibly right. Names/places in Egyptian records which might be similar to Jerusalem/Jebus/Salem include: Herusha, Sharuhen, Ebla, Shemre, Heba/Abdi. Zoan and Hebron founded same time.
I will have to refamiliarise myself with the letters and other contemporary evidences to be able to provide evidence to contrary. I do not agree from my general memoery and/or impresion of Amarna letters/period archaeology and history. Rohl showed that they could date from about the time of David taking Jerusalem. They might be a bit before David took it. I think that an impression was given in some sources that Akhenaton was slack about defending/protecting Egyptian domination/influence over Canaanite, with a seeming possibly implied presence of threatening raiders/invaders in the neighbourhood?
I don't agree that bible does/doesn't imply any Egyptian presence in Canaan during the Judges period, or that such an absence of mention can't mean that they weren't in domination of Palestine all the time. The Canaanite kings 'Judges' period has similarities with the Egyptian Hyksos period. Hyksos were "Egyptian" rulers of Egypt and Canaan as far as Bagdad. Hyksos seem to be Edomites. Classical confused Hyksos and Hebrews. Bible implies that Canaan was part of Egypt between Abraham and Joseph and Moses by the "Egypt and Canaan" in Septuagint, and by sons of Ephraim/Manasseh being mentioned as being in Canaan between the times of Joseph and Moses (in Torah and in Chronicles). Bible mentions Elhanan slew a giant Egyptian. (Compare Sinuhe.) Bible mentions king married Ano daughter of Pharaoh. Bible mentions two Shishaks invasions in United Monarchy period. Bible has name Tahtimodshi which resembles Tuthmosis. Egyptian history has Egyptian Hyksos dynasties ruling Egypt and Canaan. "The Ark of the Aamu" in records. Habiru were called Amelut Sagaz Mesh "people of the rebel Moses" in Amarna letters. Habiru similar to Hebrew and Eber-Nari. I do not agree that it is clear. Jews and Egyptians have many close connecteions. Both circumcision. Afikoman has been linked with Hapi (though etymology is cliamed to be different). "River of Egypt". El-Arish. Goshen. "Edom" occurs earlier in Egyptian records. Shechem and Jerusalem in 12th dyn Execration Texts.
Some reigns lengths may be disputable. Verbatum versus biennial cattle count regnal years records can double a kings reign length (i can even prove one king's is certainly doubled). Some kings and dynasties might be added/inserted, and/or might not be consecutive but might overlap or be contemporary/parallel. The number and order of kings/generations varies in different Egyptian king lists (and architects lists, and apis bulls lists), and is generally/usually somewhat lesser number kings than the longest ones of Turin/Manetho. Edited by Arthur-Robin - 15-Aug-2018 at 05:56 |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Sharrukin
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Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 16-Aug-2018 at 01:43 |
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At this point A-R most of your responses don't seem to mean much, so I will focus on just ONE point in chronology, namely the Tell Amarna Period. This period is SO documented that any objection to the following just scream either ignorance of knowledge or willful ignorance. Anything else is just dishonesty.< ="text/" async="" ="/_Incapsula_Resource?SWJIYLWA=719d34d31c8e3a6e6fffd425f7e032f3&ns=9&cb=1507748787">
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The Amarna Archive contains correspondences between two Egyptian kings (namely Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV and rulers of their vassals and other rulers of other empires. Among these correspondences were those with Assyrian and Babylonian kings. Amenhotep III had correspondence with Kadashma-Enlil I and his successor Burna-Buriash II. Amenhotep IV had correspondence with Burna-Buriash II, Ashur-uballlit I the king of Assyria and Shuppiluliumash I the king of Hatti. Hence any adjustment in the chronology of one of these empires affects the chronology of the rest of these rulers. Despite your objection, the chronology of the Assyrian kings is well established. From 911 to 630 BC we have an UNINTERRUPTED year-by-year account of the Assyrian kings. In other words, we don't need to rely just on lengths of reign of Assyrian rulers. We have ALL the limmus for this period, plus one astronomical observation contained in one of these limmus which confirms this chronology. Hence beginning with the reign of Adad-nirari II (911-891 BC) where this series of limmus begin, we have (going backwards) Ashur-dan II (23) Tiglathpileser II (33) Ashur-resha-ishi II (5) Ashur-rabi II (41) Ashur-nirari IV (6) Shalmaneser II (12) Ashurnasirpal I (19) Shamshi-Adad IV (4) Eriba-Adad II (2) Ashur-bel-kala (18) Ashared-apil-Ekur (2) Tiglathpilieser I (39) Ashur-resha-ishi I (18) Mutakkil-Nusku----------| Ninurta-tukulti-Ashur--- |-(46) Ashur-dan I--------------| Ninurta-apil-Ekur (13) Enlil-kudurri-usur (5) Ashur-nirari III (6) Ashur-nadin-apli (4) Tukulti-Ninurta I (37) Shalmaneser I (30) Adad-nirari I (33) Arik-den-ili (12) Enlil-nirari (10) Ashur-uballit I (36) TOTAL YEARS = 454 454 + 911 BC = 1365 BC The beginning of the reign of Ashur-uballit I was about 1365 BC hence the Amarna Age was at this time. The reign of Ashur-uballit I was c. 1365-1330 BC. Now, since the Amarna Archive dates from this time (c. 1360-1330 BC), we can call on other synchronizations which are important in establishing a biblical chronology. Contemporary with Amenhotep III and IV were a large series of vassal Canaanite rulers. Among these were Abdi-Heba, king of Jerusalem; Biryawaza, ruler of Damascus; and Abi-Milki, king of Tyre. Therefore, dating Solomon to the Amarna Period AGAIN fails, because the Bible records that the contemporary rulers of Solomon were named Rezon of Damascus and Hiram I of Tyre. NO MATCHES. |
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 16-Aug-2018 at 02:39 |
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Thank-you for lessening the quantity of points to have to reply to per post/day. I will read and reply the post's point/points shortly. Today i found another possible confirmation that Moses was 12th dynasty and David/Solomon/Shishak was 18th(-19th) dynasty. Sisera (Judges 4:2 - 5:30, 12:9) : "... Jabin king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose army was Sisera, who lived in Harosheth [Arish? Avaris?] of the Gentiles [Hyksos "foreign nations"]. .... Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots [Hyksos introducted these].... Then Jael Heber's wife took a tent peg, and took a hammer in her hand, and went softly to him, and struck the pin into his temples, and it pierced through into the ground; for he was in a deep sleep; so he swooned and died. .... He came to her; and behold, Sisera lay dead, and the tent peg was in his temples. .... She put her hand to the tent peg, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer. With the hammer she struck Sisera. She struck through his head. Yes, she pierced and struck through his temples. At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay. At her feet he bowed, he fell. Where he bowed, there he fell down dead. .... Sisera, captain of the army of Hazor [Avaris/Hauar? Luxor?]...." Psalm 83:9-10 "Do to them as you did to Midian, as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the river Kishon [Arish? pun on Hyksos?]; who perished at Endor, who became as dung for the earth." Seqenen-ra (Tao 2, 17th dynasty of ancient Egypt) : "Apepi 1 complains to his Theban counterpart Seqenenre Tao...." "The terrible wounds on Seqenenre's skull were causes by ... people attacking him with a dagger, an axe, a spear and possibly a mace. The horizontal nature of the ... wounds indicate that he was lying on his right side, either asleep or having been felled by a blow. The body was hurredly embalmed (perhaps on the battlefield) without the usual careful preparation...." "... evidence of terrible wounds about the head." "... Apepi in connection with an Egyptian under-king Seqenenra...." "My father was a captain of the deceased king Seqenenra.... .... I conveyed by water the deceased king Serkara...." (Just because the Egyptian king lists seem to imply that people were kings/pharaohs doesn't necessarily mean they really were all kings. Just because the bible doesn't call Sisera a king but a captain doesn't mean he wasn't a king. From the evidence the seeming possibility does seem a good that Egyptian Theban "king" Seqenenre/Sisera was the "captain of the army" of the Hyksos pharaoh Jabin/Apepi. Orthodox elite claim they can't match because the dates supposedly don't match. But the orthodox ascribed date of "1500s" bc of Seqenere is only theory based on a few problematic artificial composite estimated calculations of many dynasties and kings reigns lengths and a few supposed coincidences. There is no ancient reliable confirmation of their ascribed dynasties dates except for the problematic two Siriadic/Sothaic dates.) Edited by Arthur-Robin - 17-Aug-2018 at 05:40 |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Sharrukin
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Posted: 16-Aug-2018 at 22:09 |
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Unlikely. Seqenenre Tao was a native Egyptian king based in Thebes. Apepi I was the Hyksos king of the north. Therefore Seqenrere Tao had no access to the north. Seqenenre Tao's wound would have occurred between his realm and Apepi's realm in Egypt. Sisera was the general of Jabin, king of Hazor. He was NO king. Hazor was in northern Canaan which means that Sisera's battle occurred somewhere in northern Canaan. Since we already know that the Amarna Archive existed toward the end of the 18th Dynasty c. 1360-1330 BC and the early part of this dynasty had existed for about 200 years earlier, the 17th dynasty was before c. 1560. The Judges period which occurred after the Conquest was in the period c. 1200-1000 BC. Also, come on, thousands upon thousands of warriors suffered deadly head wounds in the course of thousands of years. You cannot use this instance to date a certain biblical event.< ="text/" async="" ="/_Incapsula_Resource?SWJIYLWA=719d34d31c8e3a6e6fffd425f7e032f3&ns=3&cb=1126755901">< id="jifa" ="http://lf5am.x.incapdns.net/monitor.js?ip=107.154.161.76&sid=0&aid=0&gid=1&pname=lax-prx11&ts=1534470064&sig=406e35ce236143345a821ecfb562d0cc&mode=0">
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 17-Aug-2018 at 04:54 |
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I am quiting because it seems to me from subtle general appearances that you are ingenuine/lying because no matter what stark evidences i try to show you just trivially dismiss or ignore or evade it. I am wasting my time. I can't win because it always seems it not really/just about truth/proof/evidences but it is really/also about power and psychology and methods/tactics and subtle cunningness and presentation/communication.
Look at the details of the Seqenenra's wounds, the description is too similar to just so totally casually/light dismiss. Sure it might possibly be wrong, but i can't so easily dismiss the details similarities as you did. (If it was a criminal court case i am sure this would not be so easily dismissed because the wounds details of both do seem to likely match. This is like if there was not chronological dispute.) There is another possible found possible match of King Tut &/or Zannanza connected with Uriah the Hittite, though i am not sure if it is right or wrong, or what the exact correct matches are. It seems to mean my previous Shishak/Tut correspondence may be wrong, and Shishak might rather be Seti 1 or Ramses 2. Yous defy ancient sources like the bible. You assert judges was "1200-1000" bc, based on Moses "1300/1200s bc" in direct conflict with bible which says Moses was 480 years before Solomon which makes the period more like 1400s/1300s-1000s bc. Yous take the Assyrian king lists as gospel truth but yous doubt/reject/ignore/deny/distort bible/Josephus/Herodotus when they don't happen to fit with the orthodox modern theoretical composite chronological lists. Replying to your previous (before last) post's two main points. The first point i address is the total of Assyrian kings: I agree that the 18th dynasty Amarna Letters period has syncrhonisms with Middle Assyrian & Mitanni/Hurrians & Kassites & Hittite empire. (Though the Amarna letters precise period might possibly be open to dispute on some kings correct matches because: 1. The Egyptian kings names in the letters might not match the pharaohs/names that they are supposed to, and/or the collection might include some letters from earlier times? and 2. The letters don't have the kings numbers/numerals only the names, and some might be incorrectly identified?) I do not agree though that the 18th dynasty / Amarna Period, and/or the Middle Assyrian period both/each date to "1300s" bc. The problem with basing chronology on adding up the total of reigns of the Assyrian kings list/lists is that it ignores possible exagerations or lies of ancient priests/scribes, possible co-regencies or overlaps (as is proven to be known in the Judah and Israel ones), and part years (end &/or begining of one or two kings in same years) or rounded off/up/down figures, and 2/3/4 different Assyrian cities/dynasties (Asshur, Calah, Nineveh? Dursarken?), and also the how many months/days the length of the year is (in different ancient/modern Biblical/gentile cultures solar/lunar calendars), and possible insertions or omissions. I notice the 3 kings near the middle look like there is a maybe uncertain period there? (Also, how does the total of reigns compare with an estimation from the number of generations of 26 kings?) The Assyrian king list also has 5 Shamsiadads and 5 Shalmanesers and 5 Ashurnirari's which might possibly be repduplications? Bible says "kings (plural) of the Assyrians", Assyrian king list says one king "fought his rival" predecessor. (I cant see any definite reduplications in your 454 yrs group, though it does have two Tiglathpilesers and Ashur-resha-ishis 1 & 2 in same order.) There is no confirmation of the dates with key points dates between the ends of the periods (like the bible has ones of 430 years Joseph to Moses, and 480 yrs Moses to Solomon), not just adding up heaps of reigns and dynasties. (I mean like ancient era dates records like those 2 bible ones, not methods like astronomical which have pitfalls. Unfortunetly they/you refuse to consider ones in Herodotus and Josephus and Bible (dismissing them just because "not authorities" and/or are supposedly "unreliable"). The one we do have for Naramsin unfortunately gives exagerated date that has not yet been correctly decrypted/decoded/deciphered. The Venus tablets of Ammisaduga also not yet indisputably correctly dated.) Chronology has to consider horizontal synchronisms/matches/correspondences not just vertical calculated distances (and it should have some long periods key dates confirmations not just trying to guess from adding up heaps of reigns in compiled king lists, and other confirmations). The orthodox chronology does have just a few seeming supposed horizontal matches, and has a claimed supposed vertical match of calcuated totals of dynasties and reigns and years. But the orthodox chronology has many places where things either don't match, or they outright conflict with some sources/evidences (eg their "Jericho layer doesn't match Joshua's invasion in the layer's evidence"). The few supposed matches they do have are weak or wrong or coincidence. Their "Sheshonk's campaign doesn't match Shishak's". Their "Joshua's Jericho" period in Jericho doesn't match Joshua's. They claim "we can't find any rrace of Jospeh and Moses in Egyptian history" in the ascribed date dynasty that they assert they were in. Meanwhile our own chronology has somewhat more quality and quantity horizontal and vertical matches than theirs, but they refuse to accept it only because they assert that their added up years totals for the dynasties supposedly doesn't match. Astronomical "confirmation" is flawed coincidence because as i have already stated many times already there were celestail changes in ancient times (eg Joshua halts sun, eg Venus tablets, eg Hezekiah sun goes back 10 steps, eg Hyksos calendar year change, eg Herodotus said Egyptians said sun changed direction 2 x 2 times in ancient times). The second point to address is your claim that the Amarna period names and Solomon period names supposedly either have no matches or are different. Firstly you must know that i did not necessarily just say/mean "Akhenaten & Solomon", but rather i said/meant "Amarna letters or Amarna period or heretic kings" to include the whole period from Akhenaton's father or grandfather to Horemhab, and I also said "Saul and/or David and/or Solomon". I also said the letters may match "about the time of David taking Jerusalem, or abit before him taking it". (It does look like the Amarna Letters are closer to David than to Solomon. Solomon might be a little bit later. Solomon reigned for 40 years. There can be more than one ruler changes in short number of years. Amarne letters cover two or more Egyptian/Canaanite kings reigns. So you are at least half wrong/unfair to claim there is supposedly "no match of Solomon with Amarna period", because Solomon never the less does still seem to match the same 18th-19th dynasty period, which (if we are not wrong) is still close enough to Akhenaten/Amarna (one or few kings out). I also meant "similarities" not necessarily "matches". It is not necessarily true that "no [possible] matches". There are many seeming similarities between the Saul/David/Solomon period and the 18th-19th dynasty period. There are quite a few names in Amarna letters which are similar to names of David/Solomon period. I would have to compile a list. I am not really keen to post some possible examples because i am tired of people always being so viciously mean. Timeline of my Egyptian & Biblical chronological matches: 1st (&/or 2nd) dyn -- Abraham 2nd/3rd to 4th/5th dyns -- Joseph/Jacob 11th dyn -- Elim (6th &/or) 12th (& 13th?) dyn -- Moses/exodus 15th/16th dyn (Hyksos) -- Judges/Amalek/Edomite 400 yrs 15th/16th to 19th dyn -- 480 yrs Moses to Solomon 17th dyn -- Sisera? 18th (Amarna/Heretic) dyn -- David/Solomon 18th or 19th dyn -- Shishak/Susakim? 19th or 20th dyn -- Zerah? (20th &) 21st dyn -- Zoan & Noph? 20th or 21st or 22nd or 25th dyn -- So 22nd/23rd dyn -- Phoenician/Assyrian/Elamite 25th dyn -- Assyrian 26th dyn -- Necho/Hophra/Nebuchadnezzar? 27th & 31st dyns -- Persians 32nd dyn -- Macedonian 33rd dyn -- Seleucids/Ptolemies/Maccabees Romans Edited by Arthur-Robin - 17-Aug-2018 at 05:17 |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Sharrukin
Chieftain
Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 17-Aug-2018 at 23:33 |
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A-R, dude, it is YOU who had been disingenuous and dishonest about the facts. You have NOT presented "stark" evidence of anything!!!! What you have presented were assertions based on a very small datum which could be placed anywhere in the timeline without regard to historical context, and/or place, matching names without regard to career, culture, beliefs, place or chronological position, and truncating pretty well-established timelines just to fit a perceived biblical timeline.
And here is exhibit A. You took a narrative which clearly took place in northern Canaan regarding a general of a Canaanite king from a different period than Seqnenenre Tao, a KING of Egyptian Thebes in the late 17th Dynasty who was the father of Ahmose, the founder of the 18th Dynasty, more than 200 years before the Tell Amarna Archive. In the first instance, it was the narrative was Canaanites vs. Israelites during the judges period c. 1200-1000 BC. The second was Egyptians vs. Hyksos, c. 1570 BC. And then you try the compare the wounds of Tao's head with the Biblical narrative. Dude, when the wounds of Tao's head were examined, it was determined that not only was that head wound caused by a dagger or javelin, but he also suffered from two blows of an axe in other parts of his skull. The biblical narrative specified that Sisera's wound was caused by a tent peg forced through by a hammer and no other blows. So, here you strike out 3 times!!!! Wrong place, wrong time, wrong method of death.
Exhibit B. The operative words here are "possible", "I am not sure", "it seems", "might". There are no "stark" facts here. I don't need to comment on this further.
Exhibit C. Lies. I do use the Bible. While I don't take everything the Bible says literally, let the record show that even I have used the Bible to disprove your assertions. True, i don't take the "480 years" literally but I do take it figuratively. I see in "480 years" as 12 generations (12 x 40 = 480) with 40 years to a generation. However I don't take 40 years to a generation literally either, simply "40" = "generation". This goes well with the amount of generations between Moses and Solomon being 12 generations!!! I go with a more biologically realistic generation of 25 years. Hence the time between Moses and Solomon is 300 years (12 x 25).
Exhibit D. Ignorance of Babylonian and Egyptian sources. Josephus and Herodotus are NOT authorities on Egyptian and Babylonian history. I draw on even more ANCIENT native sources for that history and they are very rich in narrative and chronological data. You seriously underestimate their worth.
Sorry, A-R, but they are positively identified by their various names. We can tell which "Amenohotep" these letters are written by and addressed to.
As I've stated before, the Assyrians kept a year-by-year llimm reckoning of their rulers. From these they were able to tabulate the lengths of reign of those rulers. I had mentioned such a series for the Late Assyrian period (continuous series of limmus from 911-630 BC) but we also have 418 limmus from the Middle Assyrian period mainly from the reign of Ashur-nadin-ahhe II (c. 1402-1393 BC) to Ashur-bel-kala (c. 1074-1057 BC) and after. We also have limmu from the Early Assyrian Period beginning from the reign of Erishum I (c. 1972-1933 BC) to after the reign of Ishme-Dagan (c. 1755-1736? BC). So, we do have the evidence to show that the Assyrians were keeping track of time and therefore the lengths of reign of their rulers is a just as valid as the figures in the Bible. Please DON'T be biased to the Bible because it is considered a "sacred text". When you criticise the regnal figures of the Assyrian kings you are offering NO PROOF that they are "exaggerated", "lies", "co-regencies", "rounded up/down", "contemporary dynasties", etc. Such had also been said of the figures in the Bible for the Judahite and israelite kings. Remember, limmus are "contemporary records" hence they are very valuable in the tracking of chronological time.
The operative words here are "might possibly". However we can discern all those "Shamihi-Adads", "Shalmanesers" and "Ashur-niraris". The Assyrian kings in their inscriptions name their predecessors and ancestors and we have the inscriptions of most of these series of kings to show that they had their own individual careers. And again we have the limmus of some of these to show that their limmus were different series. Now you are fixated on a passage of scripture mentioning "kings of Assyria". That passage in II Chronicles 28:16 (not all manuscripts say "kings") is followed by the mention of Tiglathpileser in verse 20 of the same chapter. We KNOW that Tiglathpileser was sole king. The Assyrian inscriptions in particular make that quite clear. Hence either "kings" is a mistake or it should be seen as describing Tiglathpileser and his elites. In every other passage mentioning Tiglathpileser, that is no mention of another king.
Actually we do, but they only relate to events in Assyria.
Well, you said it yourself. It gives an exaggerated date. Nothing more needs to be said.
Currently the Venus tablets of Ammisaduqa is ONLY disputed as to whether the Middle or Low Chronology is preferred, just a mere 64 years difference. Up to about 1500 BC the Assyro-Babylonian chronology is really not disputed. I will end here to ensure that this gets on the record. 2nd response forthcoming.
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Sharrukin
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Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 18-Aug-2018 at 01:33 |
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I don't think so. What the Assyrians did was to total the number of limmus in the rule of an Assyrian king at the end of that king's limmu list to get the regnal count. This is the way the Assyrians did things. Now the Egyptians on the other hand DID total their dynasties. Unfortunately, much of the tabulation did not survive the flow of time, however one such "horizontal" count did survive. They tabulated that the total amount of years from the beginning of the First Dynasty to the end of the Eight Dynasty was 955 years and 15 days according to the Turin Canon. Here in thus lays a cultural phenomenon. The Assyrians didn't do such counts unless it had something to do with, say the restoration of a temple so they would count back all the limmus to the king who last made the restoration. Hence horizontal long counts are a cultural bias, but they are not needed to validate chronology.
Poor example. The "supposed" Joshua's layer may not be Joshua's!!!! Kenyon who excavated the site dated its destruction to c. 1550 BC and radio-carbon dating resulted in a date of about 1573. There is evidence of occupation later on in about 1400 BC but erosion and estensive excavation has erased this last layer so we at this time cannot determine when Jericho was finally destroyed.
I would agree that there are problems matching Shoshenq's campaign with Shishak's. However Shoshenq's Dynasty does coincide with the era of the Divided Kingdom based on most schemes, but I am willing to talk about this problem as a separate post.
Well, A-R, that is true. There is NO Egyptian inscription which mention "Joseph" or "Moses".
And here is where you show your hubris. By "our chronology" you mean, "YOUR" chronology. Please don't ascribe it to anybody else except yourself. And NO A-R, none of your horizontal or vertical matches are qualitative or quantitative. It is all based on the most dubious matches imaginable. I questioned you on all of them. And the reason why you say that yours is better is that they don't match YOUR presuppositions. That's it.
I will stick with the hard science thank you very much!!!! I will stick with the archaeology, the natural progression as well as with the carbon-dating. Thus far, they agree!!!!! I don't need miracles or legends for chronological purposes. Their briefness would NOT be a factor in calculating chronology. And now for the Amarna discussion......FINALLY!!! I'll continue onto the next post.
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Sharrukin
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Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 18-Aug-2018 at 02:44 |
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Okay, fair enough, I'll grant you, for the moment, that you are being more general about this period than just the 30 year period of the Amarna Archive.
Okay, for starters I failed to see what you meant by myself being "half wrong/unfair." If a Canaanite king subservient to the Egyptian king was ruling in Jerusalem, and the Bible says that there was an uninterrupted rule of independent Israelite kings (namely Saul, Ishboseth/Ethbaal, David and Solomon, it didn't happen during the time when clearly, Egypt ruled Canaan during the time of the Amarna archive. I will then grant you that perhaps it occurred AFTER that. It couldn't happen before because we have documentation from both Egyptian and Hittite sources of Egyptian domination not only within Canaan itself, but also southern Syria. I had already mentioned that the Damascus region (called Upe or Apu) in the correspondences was under Egyptian control but also Qadesh and Phoenicia (i.e. the rulers of Sidon, Tyre, Byblos, and Amurru). Their kings answered to the pharoah. Now, since you want to begin with Akhenaten's father or grandfather, let's begin with his grandfather, Tuthmose IV. Now this king had a reign of no more than 10 years (his highest regnal year recorded was 8 years). On a stele he is referred to as "Conqueror of Syria" hence confirming his rule over Syria-Palestine and his border with the Mitannian kingdom from which he gained martial ties when he received the daughter of the Mitannian king Artatama I. Their realms had to be co-terminous, so that the daught ot the Mitannian king could safely move from the realm of her father to the realm of the pharoah. The story of this proposal was mentioned in a Tell amarna correspondence of the Mitannian king Tushratta, the grandson of Artatama. It took seven requests from the pharoah to finally convince the Mitannian king to give his daughter to him. Amenhotep III, the father of Akhenaton ruled for at least 39 years (his highest year recorded was year 38). His reign was relatively peaceful with just one campaign against Kush. In the international field he married the daughters of successive kings of Mitanni, namely those of Shuttarna II and Tushratta, as well as the daughters of successive kings of Babylon, namely those of Kurigalzu and Kadashman-Enlil, which meant that he had stable borders with those two kingdoms. An interesting point here is that when the king of Babylon asked for one of the pharoah's daughters, the pharoah wrote back that "From time immemorial, no daughter of the king of Egypt is given to anyone." If a pharoah refused to give his daughter to a ruler of equal rank, how much less would he even consider giving a daughter to one of his vassals?
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Sharrukin
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Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 18-Aug-2018 at 04:54 |
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For the period after Akhenaten we have the brief reigns of Smenkhare and Neferneferuaten. They reigned for at least 2 years. However their reigns were so brief that we have no information on the political situation in the Middle East at this time.< ="text/" async="" ="/_Incapsula_Resource?SWJIYLWA=719d34d31c8e3a6e6fffd425f7e032f3&ns=11&cb=1614493786">< id="jifa" ="http://lf5am.x.incapdns.net/monitor.js?ip=107.154.161.76&sid=0&aid=0&gid=1&pname=lax-prx11&ts=1534574657&sig=1c838788aec01c6c3a8e466588dff8c8&mode=0">
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Enter the boy-king Tutankhamun, shown to be, based on genetics, the son of Akhenaten. He reigned about 10 years dying about age 19. His reign coincided with the campaigns of Shuppiluliumash king of Hatti, against Egypt's ally, Mitanni. The Hittites conquered all of Syria previously controlled by Mitanni, but the Hittites were also acquiring some Egyptian holdings. Egyptian vassals were changing their allegiance to the Hittites and Egyptian troops found the situation untenable and had to retreat. In the third year of Shuppiluliumash's latest campaign when he was besieging Carchemish, was when he received a communication from the widow of Tutankhamun and the pharoah had died and that she desired one of his sons. After some great reluctance, the Hittite king sent one of his sons to claim the Egyptian throne a year later only to be killed on the way there. There was recriminations resulting in the Hittite king invading Egyptian Syria only on returning bringing with them a plague which eventually killled both Shuppiluliumash and his immediate successor Arnuwandash. There are depictions of Tutankhamun battling Asiatics but he himself probably did not travel there due to his physical defects. His successor was Ay, the grand vizier who married Tutankhamun's widow. He had a short reign - his highest known regnal year was year 4. There is nothing recorded in the situation in Syria during his reign. He was succeeded by Horemheb, the commander-in-chief of the army and Tutankhamun's heir but who got sidelined by Ay. His highest year was year 14. There are no notices of the situation in Syria-Palestine. When he died, the 18th dynasty came to an end.
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 18-Aug-2018 at 06:04 |
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I have to read you replies and reply if it seems worthwhile or necessary (though i may not since it seems subtly ingenuine treatment to me and i should not keep wasting my time). This is a first tentative provisional possible rough matching of Biblical with Mesopotamian / Near Eastern (allegedly contemporary Egyptian dynasties numbers are also shown added in by us). (The dates are not ours but are their ascribed dates which are really too old/long in the first half.) I already posted a text table of our Egyptian & Biblical matches in one of my last previous replies above.  |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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