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12 battles of "(King) Arthur"

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Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 12 battles of "(King) Arthur"
    Posted: 23-Nov-2016 at 05:25

I was having this debate about the 12 battles of Arthur on Historum again in the last few weeks and they have just now unfairly banned ("suspended") me again ("for multiple accounts", because they refused to answer me when i asked whether i could come back or not after they unfairly suspended me over a year ago), so i have to come back to Allempires (i had left AE because Centrix kept closing my topics, and a couple of threads had also went missing some other times) and post on the 9 battle sites of Arthur here. (There are not anymuch very good history forums on the net/web.)

(I searched my past posts history and can't find any topics already on this, except one onwho was real Arthur, and other on Badon.)

Our discovery was that the 12 battles 9 battle sites of Arthur in the 'Historia Britonum' of "Nennius" match 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore forts of the Notita Dignitatum from Yarmouth to Portsmouth (plus 1 site in between). We also found that the Pa Gur's 9 battle sites also match the same HB & ND/SS & modern sites, plus the battle list of Gwallawg in Taliesin also seemingly maybe matches.

Table:
# HB/Nennius - ND/SS - modern sites - PG - Gwallawg/Taliesin?
1 Glein - Garianonum - Burgh - Tribruit 1 - Lleenawg?
2 Dubglas - Othona - Bradwell - Eidyn 1 - Eidyn?
3/4 Bassas - Regulbium - Reculver - Afarnach - Aeron?
4/3 Celidon - n.a. - Coldrum - Celli - wood Beit?
5/6 Guinnion - Dubris - Dover - Eidyn 2 - Arddunion?
6/5 Legions - Rutupi - Richborough - Dissethach - Gwensteri?
7 Tribruit - Lemanis - Lympne - Tribruit 2 - marsh Terra?
8 Agned/Bregion - Anderida - Pevensey - Ystawinguin - Agathes/Brewyn?
9 Badon - Adurni - Portchester - Mon(a) - Oleddyfein?

Map:
http://2rbetterthan1.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/map-12battleska-9fortsss2.png

Rough ebook thesis paper:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1600

----------

Today i had posted in my Historum blog a list of possible synonyms for each of the 9 sites.
I had then got the idea that a table for each of the 9 sits would be better way for people to see the many interconnections between matching sites of different Welsh/etc sources/lists.
http://historum.com/blogs/gold+heart/31698-candidate-synonyms-9-battlesites-arthur.html

This is one on 3rd/4th battle/site Bassas / Reculver which i had intended to post but found been unfairly banned. (Hope the table comes out alright.)


Source

Bassas

Reculver (&/or near Rutupi)

Avalon

church

cross

ford

number/order

HB

Bassas



[see Wonders]

[see Wonders]

river, "shallow" / "ford"

3rd/6th

ASC 669

Bassa the priest

Reculver (near Rutupi)


(priest)


Wantsum-Stour


Reculver inscription

Basilica

Reculver (near Rutupi)


Basilica


Wantsum-Stour


ND/SS

Baetasiorum (from Baetasii)

Regulbium




(Wantsum-Stour)

4th/3rd

modern / historical


Reculver



Reculver Cross

Wantsum-Stour

4th/3rd

PG



Afarnach's

Hall



4th/3rd

12 Monasteries


Raglan


(monastery)



#

11 Consuls

Boso?

Rico/Ridoc?




"Oxford"

#

ASC 571

Bensington







Gwallawg



Aeron [or Gafran?]

[retreat?]



#

Children of Brychan



Afallach?

(Ilud?) or Marham church?

(Ilud?)


3rd or 6th?

DEB, HRB



St Aaron

(church?)



(in set of 2/3/4)

ASC/Ethelwerd 519



Avene?



Cerdicsford?


Wonders



Appled Ash? [Mysterious body of Levitating Altar may be Arthur]

(Levitating altar)

Levitating altar

Swelling ford/shallows?

10th

Triads



Afallach [Avalon]

Hall



10th/13th

Boron



Avaron




10th/13th

HRB


Riculf/Raculf






HRB



Akalon



(river)


24 Ks & 33 Cities

Caer Bosso?

Rhydycheu






Local Baschurch tradition

Baschurch


[Arthur's resting place]

Baschurch



[10th/13th]

?

Eglwysau Bassa "churches of Bassa"



Eglwysau "churches"




Canu Heleydd

Bassalig

[Campus Electi]







-----
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Edited by Arthur-Robin - 23-Nov-2016 at 05:31
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2016 at 11:25
Here is table for 8th battle site Agned/Breguoin / Pevensey/Anderida:

source

Agned /

Andred

(Cat)Bregion

Pevensey

Ystawinguin

Abulcorum

Downs

sorrows

fort

number/order

HB

Agned

(Cat)Bregion




(mt) "(white) hills/uplands"

"sorrow(s)" "death, massacre"


8th

ASC / Ethelwerd 477/491 / 756 / 893

(caer/coid) Andred


(Pevensey)

(Ashdown)


(South Downs / Ashdown)

massacre

(caer)


stamps/tiles

((H)on) Avg Ndr


(Pevensey)


(Abulcorum)

(South Downs)


(fort)


ND/SS

Anderida


(Pevensey)

(Hastings?)

Abulcorum

(South Downs)

(massacre)

fort

8th

stamps/tiles

(Anderida)

Cl Br

(Pevensey)



(South Downs)


fort


modern/historical

(Anderida)


Pevensey

(Ashdown?) (Hastings?)


South Downs


fort

8th

PG




Ystawinguin


uplands



8th

Gwallawg/Taliesin

Agathes?

Bretrewyn?




bre- "hill(s)"?

(defence?) "virgin martyr"?



HRB

Agned




Puellarum

(mount(ain) (Albani)

sorrow, maidens?

castle

[8th]

Bede



Peanfahel?


Abercorn / Abercurnig?

(Alcluith?)




Children of Brychan

Egloskerry / Egloshayle?

Berwyn?







#

Bergion brother to Albion


Bergion




Albion





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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2016 at 11:32
The 12 battles ebook has more matches for Agned & for Breguoin/Bregion in Anderida/Pevensey area. (It is only possible to show so much in a table.)

Not sure if this table for 6th/5th battle/site city of the legion (Rutupi/Richborough) will fit in here or come out all right?

Source

Legion / Caerleon (&/or Locrin / Logres)

city

Rutupi / Triputiensis (&/or near Reculver)

Julius

number / order

Padarn

capital

river

Cross

Round Table / Amphi-theatre

Ceretic

oysters

wave

Camelot

HB

city of the legion (car-lion)

city of the legion (car-lion)



6th/9th


(city)








ND/SS

Legio 2 Augusta


Rutupiae

(Julius Caesar)

5th



(Stour)


Rutupi "red top"? Amphitheatre

(Caractacus)




Bede


city of Rutubi

city of Rutupi












Orosius / Lucan


civtas, orbs

Rutupiae












Ptolemy


town

Rutupiae












Juvenal?

[Lucrinum?]


Rutupi?












German inscriptions



Triputiensis












"Richard of Cirencester"


metropolis, city

Rutupi


(primary)


primary station, metropolis, of such celebrity that





oysters



modern / historical

(legio Augusta)

(borough)

Richborough

(Julius Caesar)

5th/6th



Stour

large cruciform platform

amphitheatre

(Caractacus)

oysters

(Ebbsfleet?)


PaGur


dwellings of Dissethach



5th


(dwellings)






fastness of Dissethach


11 Consuls HRB

Legecester

(cester)


Jugein?

5th










(11 Consuls)



(Rico/ Ridoc / Richiden?)


#










12 Monasteries

Leominster




7th/6th








Lann Llieni


ASC 571

Lygeanburg / Liganburh

"city", (burh)













Gwallawg / Taliesin





#


Lloegyr








Children of Brychan




Juliana?











DEB, HRB

"Caerleon"

city/caer


St Julius

(set of 3)





amphitheatre , Amphibalus?



(amphi-balus?)


ASC 540




calends of Julius 540











3 Solemnities Padarn




calends of July

(set of 3)

Padarn









3 Churches Padarn





middle or last?

Padarn



Again's Cross?






3 renowned cities / Beroul

Cuerlion

cuer / renowned cities



(set of 3)


(renowned cities)








HRB

Locrin(us)




set of 3


(Lloegria)








Wonders

Lynn Liuan (army)?

former rustic



6th




Cruc Mawr

Circling rock/mount

Cereticiaun


Lynn Liuan (ebbs), (omitted in Irish HB?)

?

Arthurian





9th

(Peryddon?)

(Peryddon?)


(Gawain's grave?)




9th wave Peryddon


24 Ks & 33 Cities

"Caerleon"

caer, 2nd Rome, chief city





2nd Rome, chief city of GB

"(up)on Usk"


?





Sts Lives


metropolis



set of 3

Padarn

metropolis







Campus Heli

Pa Halgan

Legeceastre

(ceastre), (burge)




St Paerburge?









Legend

city of Lions / Lyonesse

city







?




sunken / submerged


HRB

Tremounus of Legions


Tremounus




(archbishop/ metropolitan)


(Tremounus?)






Great Victory Arthur 540/640




540











Wace / [Beroul]

?

?



?


?



Round Table rotates like world




?

Arthurian

#?






?

...


?




Camelot

Irish HB Wonders

omitted








omitted

omitted

omitted

Limpets of Ceoil?

omitted


A source



Rocabarraigh?










Rocabarraigh


(St Patrick)

soldiers of Corocticus?

"father of citizens"?




Patrick?



Cruc...?


Coroticus?




[Ardrey]

[city of the legion]


Trimontium?






Trimontium?





?

Stephen of Bourbon

Lyon?




set of 2










Breton

Leon

Carhaix













Galician




Sant-Iago?



?







Compostela?

584

"Chester"

town



?

white stone?


(valley?)

(white stone?)




(valley?)



(The table is not quite complete, but it starts to show the many inter-connections vertically and horizontally.)

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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2016 at 22:37
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin


I was having this debate about the 12 battles of Arthur on Historum again in the last few weeks and they have just now unfairly banned ("suspended") me again ("for multiple accounts", because they refused to answer me when i asked whether i could come back or not after they unfairly suspended me over a year ago), so i have to come back to Allempires (i had left AE because Centrix kept closing my topics, and a couple of threads had also went missing some other times) and post on the 9 battle sites of Arthur here. (There are not anymuch very good history forums on the net/web.)

(I searched my past posts history and can't find any topics already on this, except one onwho was real Arthur, and other on Badon.)

Our discovery was that the 12 battles 9 battle sites of Arthur in the 'Historia Britonum' of "Nennius" match 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore forts of the Notita Dignitatum from Yarmouth to Portsmouth (plus 1 site in between). We also found that the Pa Gur's 9 battle sites also match the same HB & ND/SS & modern sites, plus the battle list of Gwallawg in Taliesin also seemingly maybe matches.

Table:
# HB/Nennius - ND/SS - modern sites - PG - Gwallawg/Taliesin?
1 Glein - Garianonum - Burgh - Tribruit 1 - Lleenawg?
2 Dubglas - Othona - Bradwell - Eidyn 1 - Eidyn?
3/4 Bassas - Regulbium - Reculver - Afarnach - Aeron?
4/3 Celidon - n.a. - Coldrum - Celli - wood Beit?
5/6 Guinnion - Dubris - Dover - Eidyn 2 - Arddunion?
6/5 Legions - Rutupi - Richborough - Dissethach - Gwensteri?
7 Tribruit - Lemanis - Lympne - Tribruit 2 - marsh Terra?
8 Agned/Bregion - Anderida - Pevensey - Ystawinguin - Agathes/Brewyn?
9 Badon - Adurni - Portchester - Mon(a) - Oleddyfein?

Map:
http://2rbetterthan1.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/map-12battleska-9fortsss2.png

Rough ebook thesis paper:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1600

----------

Today i had posted in my Historum blog a list of possible synonyms for each of the 9 sites.
I had then got the idea that a table for each of the 9 sits would be better way for people to see the many interconnections between matching sites of different Welsh/etc sources/lists.
http://historum.com/blogs/gold+heart/31698-candidate-synonyms-9-battlesites-arthur.html

This is one on 3rd/4th battle/site Bassas / Reculver which i had intended to post but found been unfairly banned. (Hope the table comes out alright.)


Source

Bassas

Reculver (&/or near Rutupi)

Avalon

church

cross

ford

number/order

HB

Bassas



[see Wonders]

[see Wonders]

river, "shallow" / "ford"

3rd/6th

ASC 669

Bassa the priest

Reculver (near Rutupi)


(priest)


Wantsum-Stour


Reculver inscription

Basilica

Reculver (near Rutupi)


Basilica


Wantsum-Stour


ND/SS

Baetasiorum (from Baetasii)

Regulbium




(Wantsum-Stour)

4th/3rd

modern / historical


Reculver



Reculver Cross

Wantsum-Stour

4th/3rd

PG



Afarnach's

Hall



4th/3rd

12 Monasteries


Raglan


(monastery)



#

11 Consuls

Boso?

Rico/Ridoc?




"Oxford"

#

ASC 571

Bensington







Gwallawg



Aeron [or Gafran?]

[retreat?]



#

Children of Brychan



Afallach?

(Ilud?) or Marham church?

(Ilud?)


3rd or 6th?

DEB, HRB



St Aaron

(church?)



(in set of 2/3/4)

ASC/Ethelwerd 519



Avene?



Cerdicsford?


Wonders



Appled Ash? [Mysterious body of Levitating Altar may be Arthur]

(Levitating altar)

Levitating altar

Swelling ford/shallows?

10th

Triads



Afallach [Avalon]

Hall



10th/13th

Boron



Avaron




10th/13th

HRB


Riculf/Raculf






HRB



Akalon



(river)


24 Ks & 33 Cities

Caer Bosso?

Rhydycheu






Local Baschurch tradition

Baschurch


[Arthur's resting place]

Baschurch



[10th/13th]

?

Eglwysau Bassa "churches of Bassa"



Eglwysau "churches"




Canu Heleydd

Bassalig

[Campus Electi]







-----
signature:
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The only topics closed are when ya drift off into troll like, spam like bullsheet. Which nine times out of ten were in the wrong sub to begin with.

And as you already know we DO NOT discuss other forums or their ACTIONS here.

Carry on.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2016 at 23:17
Well i just have to keep my half disagreement on that to myself, as the trouble with forums is they can and do unfairly ban people. At least i haven't been banned from here so far.

Here is a table on correspondences of all 9 battle sites between different sources.

source

1st

2nd

3rd/4th

4th/3rd

5th/middle / 6th

6th / 5th/middle

7th

8th

9th/last

12 battles, 9 battle-sites HB/Nennius, Irish HB, Liber Floridus, Higden

1 *aber/ ostium fluminis Glein/Gleni/Gleuy "mouth river Glein"

2/2-5 Dubglas "black water" (Linnuis "pools") [near Mersee] [Wygan /Witham?]

3/6 Bassas

4/7 silva Caledonis (cat coit Celidon) (Guinnoin in)

5/8 castellum Guinnion / *Alborum "fort(let)" + "white" (vs pagans / Saxons) (Mary, Cross, shoulder / shield) (in Caledon wood)

6/9 urbs/city of the Legion (Carlion)

7/10 (Trat)Tribruit / Ribroit / Arderit

8/11 Mt Agned / (Cat-)Bregion/Breuoin "(white) hills"

9/12 Badon hill/mt

9 ND/SS forts

2/1 Gariannonum

3/2 Othona (Limen fortenses)

4/3 Regulbium (cohors Baetasiorum [from Baetasii]

n.a. (in between)

6 Dubris (white)

5 Rutupiae "red top" (Legio 2 Augusta from Caerleon), Triputiensis, "city/civtas/orbs", [Lucrinum?]

7 Lemanis

8 Anderida (Abulcorum) ((H)on Avg_Ndr), (Cl Br), (Andred)

9 portus Adurni "height" (&/or Clausentum)

9 modern / historical actual sites

1 Burgh, Great Yar-mouth, Breydon Water. Garieni. Gar[ienno]. Gerne-mwa. (Spong Hill?Grimes Graves?)

2 Bradwell, Maldon, Ithancester, Lu(n)dan-byrig, river Blackwater, Witham, river Ei-du-mannia "element du black", Dengie Marshes, Mersea Island

4 Reculver, monastery-church, Reculver Cross, 'Basilica', Bassa the priest, Wantsum-Stour

3 Kit's Coty "battle + wood" & Coldrum, Pilgrims Way, Medway, Weald, Sylva Caledonia of Caesar, Sylva Eaglis. Countless Stones(can't be counted), Beult

6 Dover, white, Albion, St Mary in Castro, St Martin le Grand, Edinburgh Hill, Braddon, North Downs, W & E Heights, Colton, not far from a Snowdown

5 Richborough, large cruciform platform, amphitheatre, (Julius Caesar) (Caractacus), oysters

7 Stutfall, Lympne, Romney, Lliff Menai

8 Pevensey, South Downs, (Ashdown?), (Hastings?), ('(H)on Avg_Ndr'), (Andred)

9 (Bere by) Portchester, Portsdown Hill, Meon, &/or Bitterne, Southampton (geothermal)

"7"/9 PG battles/sites

1 Tribruit 1

2 Eidyn 1

4/3 Afarnach's Hall

3/4 Celli "grove"

6 Mynydd Eidyn, Eidyn 2 (vs Cynbyn)

5 fastness /dwellings of Dissethach

7 Tribruit 2

8 uplands of Ystawinguin

9 Mon(a) /"Anglesey"

# Gwallawg battles (Taliesin)

1 plain of Lleeawg [&/or Agathes?]

2 Maw & Eidyn [&/or region Bretrewyn?]

Aeron [& retreat Brecheinawc, Gafran?]

wood Beit & hunter Mabon

Arddunion "fortress height" [& Eidyn?]

Gwensteri, Lloegyr

marsh Terra

Agathes & region Bretrewyn?

end of wood of Oleddyfein? [&/or Eidyn?]

12 Monasteries

Glyn Rosin?

Martrun? Hodnant?

Raglan?

Colguan?

Glasgwin?

7/6 Leominster, Lann Llieni

Repetun?

Croyland?

Bathonia

11 Consuls

Morvid of Gloucester?


... [&/or Boso of Rico/Ridoc/Richiden /"Oxford"?]


Cursalen of Kaicester?

5 Jugein of Legecester, [Rico/Ridoc /Richiden?]



Urgennius of Bath

13 Wonders of Britain



Levitating Altar, Swelling ford? Appled Ash?

Amrs Tomb (can't be measured), Archen-field; Cabal's Cairn, Buelt? [Swelling ford?]

Sealess shore? DurRig Habren? [Pictish Palace?]

Cruc Mawr, Returning Plank, Lynn Liuan (army, ebbs), Circling Mount, omitted in Irish, [limpets of Ceoil?

loch Lumonoy


Hot Lake, Salt fountain, river Trahannon?

15 Children of Brychan

St Ive /Johannes

St Endellion /Endelient? Dyfnan / Duban?

Afallach? Minver /Menfre? or Marham? Ilud?

Mabyn /Mabon? Clether / Cleder?

7 St Wenn? Dyfrig? Iona?

Juliana?


Egloskerry? Egloshayle? Berwyn? Brynach?

14 Adwen /Advent (or Lanent?)

10 Glywys?

1 Gwynlliw /Gwynllyw? or 6 Gwrhai/Gurai/Gurinid

2 Etelic /Etelicchion/Edelygion

Margam? 4/3 Penychen?

3/4 Pedrog (no part)? Kidwely?

1 Gwynlliw/Gwynllyw or 6 Gwrhai/Gurai/Gurinid

principal seat? Crucmetil? Serugunid? Pedrog?

Margam?

Penychen?

Crucmetil?

7 servants of the Porter

1 Grynn




5

Gwrdnei cat's eyes




7 Clust(veinyd)?

ASC /Ethelwerd 571 (later re/taking by Saxons)



Bensington?

Aylesbury?

Egonesham /Ignesham?

"city" Lygeanburg /Liganburh




ASC 577?







Glewancester?


Bath?

ASC (no gains gap 519-552)

Cerdicsshore?

"London"

Avene / Cerdicsford?

Cerdicsleag?

Wiht-garas-burh?calends Martii 538?

calends Julius 540?



Sarum & Beranbury? Wibbandune?

Scilly / Lyonesse (analogousnamesakes)




Hoary rock in the Wood

Hoary Rock in the wood

city of Lions /Lyonesse?


St Agnes?


3 several battles, HRB/Geoff


Dubglas, "Lincoln", London


"Caledonian", London

"Bath"? "Alclud"?

?

"3 several battles"? "Lomond".

"Totness"? "Alclud"?

"Severn" & "Bath"?

W Saxons (Sayles) (ASC)(GYAM)

Wash, (Cerdics-shore?)








Solent, (Cerdic-shore?)

3 HRB




Kamber?

Albanact

Locrin(us)




2/3/4 Sts DEB/HRB



St Aaron


St Alban('s), "Verulam" / Uerolam-iensem

St Julius. Amphibalus?




3 battles Triads




Cad Godeu / Cad Achren

Arthuret?

Camlan?




3 Renowned Cities / Beroul





Isneldone /"Snowdon" "snow hill"

Cuerlion




3 solemnities Padarn





calends May?

calends July ; metropolis of Padarn / campus Heli




3 churches Padarn

maritime?


martime, or Again's Cross / middle?


Again's Cross / middle, or Great/last

Again's Cross / middle, or Great/last ; metropolis of Padarn / campus Heli



Great/last?

DEB/Gildas, AC/WA, Tysilio, HRB/Geoff, EH/Bede, Taliesin





siege Mt Badon (near "Win-chester") (feasts)?




Mt Badon (near Winchester) (feasts) / Baddesdown-hill / "Bath". (Posentesburh?)

Prophecy of Merlin





Guintonhi /"Winchester" (earth shall swallow)




Baths of Badon?

HRB





Alclud, Albani



Agned, castle of maiens, castellum Puellarum


PaHalgan





Martinus, Doferum. (Eafe?)

St Paerburge, Legeceastre

Limmingce?



Earls





Doorn?


Limours?



lai of Ywenec

Carwent?

Doglas?



Carwent? "Doglas"?

Carlion




Taliesin

gravel bank Garanwyn(yon)?




Dubriactus?





Avalon sources



10/13 Hall on isle of Afallach, Avalon (in North Sea), Avaron







Canu Heleydd



Bassalig



Campus Electi?




Galician (analogous)





Santa Maria de Bretona? Tower of Hercules?

Sant-iago de Compstela?




Breton (analogous)





Gwenedeg/Vannes?

Leon?




Vulgate cycle




fine hunting grounds Arestal

fortress on a lofty Saxon Rock in region of Arestal nearby narrows of Godalente





24 Ks & 33 Cities / HRB/Geoff




Green Shield

White Shield, Darian Las? Marsia /Martia & 'Caer Baris' / "Dorchester" "by the sea"? Castell y Morwynion / Mynydd y Tristydd? Gwenwissa/ Genuissa dtr of Caesar / Claudius? "Jerusalem"

"Caerleon"


?

Bladud/Bath /Badon?





Celidoine

Galafort (sign of cross)





Stephen de Bourbon (analogous)





St Guinefort (cyno-cephali)

Lyon?




584




green woodland

(white town / "Chester"?)

white town in valley - town of white stone / "Chester"?








wood-clad rock

Lofty wood-clad rock dinas Emrys? Vast insulated rock dinas Emrys?





Merlin sources



Merlin Avellenaw

Merlin Wylt, Merlin Caledonensis, MerlinSilverstris

[Car-marthen?]

[Car-marthen?] "Merlin's town Caerleon"




Fife (analogous)




Culdees?

St Mary on the Rock





St Patrick






soldiers of Corocticus? Patrick "father of citizens"? Cruc?









Camelot (marble, yellow)?

Camelot (marble, yellow)?




HRB, AC





St Dyfrig/ Dubricius (of Legions)

(Dubricius of) Legions, Tremounus of Legions




Landavensis






[urbs legionum or Caerlleon]




[Will of Worcester?]




se nemus

"Stirling"?

"Stirling"?




Sts Lives





Do(c)guinnus / Llanddyfrwyr





Round Table (Wace, Beroul)





Round Table rotates like world, siege perilous, at castle Snowdon "snow hill", at castle "Windsor"

Round Table rotates like world, at city of the legion / caer-leon




Tristan & Yseut




Coed Celyddon

Castle Dore? Castle of Snowdon? Castle of "Windsor"?

city of Lions / Lyonesse




Modena Archivoilt





"Guinevere", tower/castle, Galvarium





Urien (Taliesin)

Aberioed?


Aeron? ford? Inver?

underwood of Cadleu? (al-Clud?)Affair at head of wood?

Ulph? "ford" of Al-clud?Affair at head of wood?

Llwyvenydd?


Brewyn?

Cludvein? Affair at head of wood?

8 labours Turein /Turenn?





4th two steeds Dobar?
































































































































































































































































I will also do tables on each of the 9 battle sites showing correspondences of the details of each site as given in Nennius/HB and the matches with/in the ND/SS and actual sites. (2 columns: 1 the HB site details, and 2 the SS/actual site matching details.)

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2016 at 07:59

From the table in the last post we can see that it is not just a "hobby horse" as someone on Historum insultingly unfairly untruly said a few days ago.
Nor is it "no one knows" as another person there asserted days ago. (They think they know it all (and that they think they see there is no genuine history to the 12 battles list), and that everyone else doesn't know as much as them, and that they know better than us? Or perhaps it is a lie and it suits them to keep it "not known"?) Fact is they can't say "no one knows", because i know, though they think i know wrong, they can only say they don't know and that they think no one knows.
Btw Dover and Richborough seem analogous to prehistorical centre Salisbury (high) and a.d. capital London (low)?

Below: Table for details matches of first battle site Glein (Gariannonum/Burgh/Yarmouth).

“Primum bellum fuit in ostium fluminis quod dicitur Glein/Gleuy.”
Or,
“His/The 1st battle (in which he was engaged,) was at/[above/totheeastof] the mouth of the river ((which is) called) Glein/Gleni/Gleuy.”
(- "Nennius" 'HB', &/or Irish 'HB', &/or 'Liber Floridus'.)

(I put them in the table in the order of the quoted HB/Nennius verse. We see that "Nennnis" did not give so "scanty" details as some have asserted.)

Details of 1st battle site of Arthur (Glein) in HB of Nennius & other sources

Matching details of the actual modern/historical site (Great Yarmouth)

("his/he",) (dux bellorum) Arthur, and kings & military force of Britain/Britons.

Evidences for Britons in the area may include: History Files and wiki articles mention evidences of late British presence at Caerlerion, Caerwent, Colchester, Walton. Some say the fens were a refuge for Britons. [Ursicinus of Hoxne hoard?] Count Theodosius the brown bear? Caerwent of lai of Ywenec? St Leonard's on Mousehold Heath [cp Llwyn-arth]? "Norfolk has more large Anglo-Saxon cemeteries than the neighbouring East Anglian county of Suffolk". Modern genetic map posted on Apricity forum showed East Anglia less Germanic. "The dolichocephali, or long-skulled type of men, who, in part, preceded the English, have been found abundantly in the Suffolk region of the Littus Saxonicum, where the Celt and Saxon [Englishman] are not known to have met as enemies when East Anglia became a kingdom." "510-555 emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent". East Anglia "must have been loosely organised" "not enough to make the north folk and south folk forget their differences ... became separate shires...." (Yarmouth is near dividing line of Norfolk & Suffolk.)

1st (of 9)

2nd, but 1st excluding omitted 1st ND fort Branodunum. Ours is not just one isolated site but 9 sites all matching and all in order/numbers with an attested set of 9 sites.

battle

Possible evidences for battle there include the SS fort with possible traces of battle(s) there. Saxon Shore is strategic. Spong Hill graves? The name of Grime's Graves? Cerdicshore battle (ASC, GYAM)? Granfelden 675? St Mary in the Field? [One of the two sites (Burgh / Caistor) had some Saxon/Briton religious associations which may connect with battle there?]

at / above / to east of

Caistor is on north side of estuary? "on western edge of Caistor"? Burgh is on opp side of estuary, on eastern bank of southernmost part of Breydon water, few miles sw of Caistor, "w of Burgh Castle"? "Burgh Castle (Norfolk) near the mouth of the river Yare". .... The Yare flows from west to east and the mouth of the Yare is to/in the east

ostium/*aber/mouth. Ostium can mean either "vicinity to the embouchure of a river" or "door/entrance/mouth", or "confluence". "Nennius used ostium not aestuarium". Some scholar's proposed original *Aber can mean either "estuary" &/or "confluence, a river's confluence with another" &/or "(river) mouth, the mouth of a river at the coast".

Garien(n)i fluvii ostia / ost Gariennus flumen / Gerne-mwa / Great Yar-mouth. This site has a mouth, and a confluence, and an estuary. Burgh/Caistor is at mouths of 4 rivers. "Burgh Castle (Norfolk) near the mouth of the river Yare".

fluminis/river. "Nennius says/uses fluminis/fluvium not rivius". Fluminis/fluvium can mean "running water" and/or "river/stream".

Garien(n)i fluvii ostia / ost Gariennus flumen / river Yare (or Waveney or ...). One of the proposed meaning of Gariannonum is "babbling".

Glein/Gleni/Gleuy (name)

Garieni/Garienus / Gar[ienno] / Gariannonum / Gerne / Yare.

Some people scathingly adamantly assertingly "authoritatively" claim that Glein and Garieni are different roots (or that they are not able to say they agree because they and/or i are not certified linguists. However there is such quantity and quality evidences that all the 9 sites definitely match, and it must be 1 of these 4 certainly-possible solutions: Either Glein and Garieni are same/related name/origin (their linguistics are demonstrably only theory and not definite fact), or else "unreliable" Nennius did a clever pun (there are known/possible examples of such elsewhere in HB and in world history), or only the meaning matches the site not the actual name (and name is only Nennius'), or else we got wrong local name match and there is some other local name that matches. (Other names in wider area include Peter Gleane, Grime's graves, St Giles, and i think i saw a Glynde near there in Norfolk/Suffolk?)

meaning of name: The linguistic root and meaning of the name Glein is not necessarily definite, proposed meanings include: gleno "holy", or *glan/glen/glem/gem "pure (river)/clear/clean/bright/brilliant/gem", or glain "glass/crystal/gem", or glen/glyn/gleann/glin/*glinn "a glen, valley (of the river)/(river of the) valley, dale, head of the hollar, where a valley butts up against the mountain, usually with a spring" (related to klettr "cliff") or "mountain valley", or dyn Glan "man alive", or glind "fence, enclosure".

the linguistic root and meaning of the name Garieni is not necessarily definite, proposed "probable" meanings include: gar "ash", “shout, babble/babbling (river)”, or “rough”, or ear "gravel(ly)". Some of the meanings of Glein may match our site. There is a glass vessel at Burgh castle (as there also is at Dover) re the "holy", "glass" or "clear/pure" meaning. There is a cliff at this site, and the fort "underlying hillside, on summit of ground sloping steeply towards estuary of river Waveney, overlooking estuary/marsh. (Grandval 675?)

ostium fluminis Glein/Gleni "mouth of the river Glein"

Garien(n)i fluvii ostia / ost Gariennus flumen "mouth of the Garienus"

against Saxons

Saxons ranged from Wash to Solent. The "Saxon Shore". Spong Hill graves. Some say Cerdicsshore may have been at Yarmouth? One of the othodox theoretical criticisms of our thesis is that they think the s.e. quarter of Britain was all Anglo-Saxon. "Jews Way" (& "Jews Lane") (meaning enigmatic people). "Norfolk has more large Anglo-Saxon cemeteries than the neighbouring East Anglian county of Suffolk". "Roman and Saxon integration" in Saxon Shore fort(s) area. "British strategy seems to have been to allow Saxon landings and to then contain them, there." Of the SS forts "There has been no consensus amongst those who write about the transition from the Romans to the Anglo-Saxons." ....

before Ida c 547

.... (The dates of Burgh would seem to fit better than dates of Caistor.)

HB/Nennius (including Wonders)

Some wonders of Britain match a number of the 9 battle sites. Not sure if any Wonders do or don't match this site. Some possible Wonders that might match are ....

history

true historical actual site match. Haven't yet any certain historical chronicle matches but some possible candidates may include Theodosius? Germanus? Cerdicshore battle (ASC, GYAM)?

(island of) Britain

is in Great Britain

Indirect matches via intermediate: 9 HB battle sites match 9 PG battles. 1st battle Glein of HB matches 1st battle Tribruit of PG. Glein 1st battle of HB may match Grynn 1st servant of the Porter. Plain of Lleenawg of Taliesin may link with Glein?

Indirect matches: 9 PG battle sites also match 9 actual SS sites. The Breydon water at this 1st actual SS site also matches 1st battle Tribruit of PG. 1st servant ofthe Porter Grynn may offer intermediate between Glein/Gleni and Garieni/Gariannonum? Plain of Lleenawg of Taliesin may link with fields of Burgh site? Gravel bank of Garanyn(yon)of Taliesin may link with Gariannonum? Glass vessel at Burgh might link with Igraine?

Others not just me: Some others have also located an HB battle(site) at Gariannonum/Norwich (but Guinnion not Glein). No one has disproven our 9 sites match(es), they only reject it for 1 reason for each site (ignoring all the quantity and quality of our site(s) matches evidences). Prof Fields locates the 12 battles "up and down the east coast".

Others not just me: Some others have also located an HB battle(site) at Gariannonum/Norwich (but Guinnion not Glein).



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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2016 at 07:59
I was not going to waste anymore time on this (except for answering any peoples questions), since i have other things i need and want to do, and so far no one has given any positive feedback. But i couldn't stop the need and urge to do a brief summary table just on the briefest 9 sites matches to try to show how it can not be coincidence that all 9 sites have quantity and quality matches all in order. But remember the table is only brief and doesn't anywhere near include all evidences and explanations in our 12 battles paper/ebook and posts and tables. I just can not understand how some people who have argued with me can't see or accept any of the evidences, but as i said i have been forced to let it go due to other things i need/want to do.


12 Battles / 9 Battle-sites of "Arthur" in 'Historia Britonum' of "Nennius", Irish HB, 'Liber Floridus' of Omer, Higden.

The historically verified set of 9 actual historical/modern Saxon Shore sites (as in the 'Notita Dignitatum', etc).

1. ostium fluminis Glein/Glenii "the mouth of the river ((which is) called) Glein/Gleni"

2/1. Garianonum / Burgh/Caister / Great Yarmouth : 'Garien(n)i fluvii ostia' / 'ost. Gariennus flumen' "the mouth of the Garienus" / 'Gariannus Fluvius' / 'Gar[ienno]'. (Peter Glean? Glynde? Grime's graves? Iceni?)

2 (2-5). river Dub-glas ["black-water" / "blue-black"] (+ region Linnuis/Linnius ["region/district /polity /people/inhabitants (of) pools/lakes/ponds"]) (Near Mersee (Higden).)

3/2. Othona / Bradwell / Maldon : river Blackwater &/or river Ei-du-mannia/Eidumanis "element du "black"". (+ "Five Lakes near the coastal town of Maldon", "60 acres of beautiful parkland and lakes", "The Mid-Essex Coast Special Protection Area is of International importance as a wetland ..... means over millions of years, resulting in a landscape where lakes or ponds tend ...", "consisting of numerous lakes, ponds, boggy areas, willow swamp, scrub and", "Dengie Marshes". Lindsell/Lyndesele/Lindeseles/Lindezel, and Linford in Essex, and a Linford road East Tilbury? Lindsey in Suffolk? Limen Forteneses at Othona? Lu(n)dan-byrig? London?) [Two rivers Tamar & Limar?] Mersea Island.

3 (6). river Bassas ["shallow", or "ford", or "forehead"?]

4/3. Regulbium/Reculver : 'Basilicia' in Reculver inscirption. Cohors i Baetasiorum (from Baetasii) at Regulbium in ND. 'Bassa the priest' at Reculver in 669 (ASC). Regulbium/Reculver name means "at the promontory / great headland", and the fort "entrance faced north / on north side, facing the eponymous promontory". Episford/Ebissa? river Wantsum-Stour. [Two streams Rheidiol and Paith?]

4 (7). silua Caledonis ["wood Caledon"] (+ cat coit Celidon ["battle wood Celidon"])

0/3. The Weald (forest/wood) : 'sylva Caledonia' / 'Caledonia sylva' of Caesar's invasion (in Florus etc). 'Sylva Eegalis'. 'Anderida Silva'. Kit's Coty ("The Kit element has been interpreted as Categern or Battle and Coty as Wood, Coits or Stones and Small Cottage", or Keiton) & Coldrum, which 2 nearby sites are connected in Tradition and by Pilgrims Way. ["Green Shield"?]

5 (8). castellum ["fort(let)"] Guinnion/*Alborum ["white, fair, holy"] (Arthur's shoulder/s / shield", St Mary). ["Guinevere" in Modena Archivolt?] = Badon of AC/WA.

6. Dubris/Dover. White Cliffs. Albion. North Downs (chalk). Lighthouse. 'St Mary in Castro'. Glass Vessel. ["Guinevere" in Modena Archivolt? Y-Bryn-gwyn / Gwyn-fryn "White Hill/Tower" "facing France" of Bran story? Guintonhi/"Winchester" which "the earth shall swallow up" of HRB? Gwenwisa dtr of Caesar/Claudius in '24 kings & 33 cities'? "White Shield"? Guiderius? Kent is linked with Christ and St Mary in 694.] At Dover is "lost village of Braddon within Drop Redoubt on Dover Western Heights", "the ancient name of Braddon", "I would suspect that Bradden would more likely be on the highest point of the hill".

6 (9). 'urbe/urbs Legionis' "city of the legion" (+ Cairlion). [Lygeanburg/Liganburh in ASC?]

5. Rutupiae/Richborough. 'orbs'/'civitas' (Orosius/Lucan), "city" (Bede). Legio 2 Augusta (from Caerleon) (ND). A civil(ian settlement) and commercial town; "metropolis". [St Paerburge of Leg(e)ceastre in Pa Halgan? Lygeanburg/Liganburh in ASC? Synod 'Urbs/Urbis Legionum/Legion(is)/ligionis'/"Chester" 601/602 (different to battle 'Caer Legion'/"Chester" 613/614) (AC) ~ St Augustine synod at "Chester" ~ 'Augustine's Ac' "Augustine's Oak" "on the borders of the Hwiccas" c603?]

7 (10). (Trat/Traeth [“road/shore/bank(s)”, or “river + wider geographical context like a bay” / “not properly a river but an inlet of the sea, a tract of marsh, or other shallow and sandy place usually covered with water… such as… a quagmire”?]) Tribruit/Ribroit/Arderit [“tidal estuary + 3/crossing + rushing [river]”, or “a place where three rivers empty into an estuary”, [or bruit "brook"?], or “a strand or stretch of beach beside the sea at a place where three rivers come together”, or brwydr “(piercing/pierced (through)/(through-)pierced,) battle” / “broken through” / ”(strand of the pierced or) broken (place)” / [beach], “((the) pierced or) broken (through) shore”, or brisare “press out”?] [“the frith, or marshy channel, of the open or unenclosed habitation”].

7. Lemanis / Stutfall / Lympne / Romney / Lliff Menai. "Stutfall Castle seems to have occupied a broad point of land forming the north shore of a strait separated by a wide tract of marsh and sandbank from the mainland. This sea channel gradually disappeared to become part of Romney Marsh but excavation has demonstrated that the shoreline was originally 1.8 meters below the present level of the marsh. The siting of the fort and its Classis Britannica predecessor, with the command of this narrow estuary, made good strategic sense enabling it to control all shipping entering the harbour…." Rye harbour/bay; Denge marsh; Romney marsh (from aet_thaere_ruman_e “broad river”); Sandtun (tidal inlet); Rother(bridge) river/banks (tidal estuary); Tidebrook; Brede (tidal channel); Lemanis (intertidal areas); Lymne (banks). 3 rivers (Brede being one). 3 pronged inlet of sea in Roman times (maps). (Atrebates (border there)? Bibroci (border there)? 'Cl Br'? 'thetis_Rhutupinaque_littora'/"Rutupian shore"/Triputiensis? Ypres Tower (Rye)? 'Ripp (Wood)'? Trebeurden?)

8 (11). Mt Breguoin ["(white) hills/uplands"] / Agned ["massacre", or "sorrows", or "pure, virgins, lamb" [virgin martyr], or "pasture + headland"?] / Cat Bregion. ('castellum puellarum' "Castle of Maidens", 'montem dolorosum' "Mountain of Sorrow", near 'Albani' "white" (HRB).)

8. Anderida (fort) / Pevensey. 'caer/coid Andred' (477/491/756/893)? '((H)on) Avg-Ndr' tiles/stamps? Massacre here in 477/488/491. (Montague nw of Pevensey? Lower Agney? Mountney Level?) 'Cl Br' tiles/stamps? (Mt Caburn? Boulogne? Bre Regin? Bre Gwoden?) South Downs (chalk). Abulcorum.

9 (12). penetrated to Mt/Hill Badon, or Baddesdown-hill (Bede). (Most severe contest. 940/960/470 fell.) (Hot lake, bath(s).) ("Solsbury".)

9. portus Adurni/Adiuni/Ardaoni/Ardaoneon (fort) "fort/port of the height", Portsdown Hill, Portchester. [Mantuantonis/Mutu-antonis (Ravenna cosmo. # 69)?] B(i)eda son of Port 501 (ASC)? "After participating in crucial early battles on the rivers Medway and Thames, he [Vespasian] was sent to reduce the south west, penetrating through the modern counties of Hampshire, Wiltshire, Dorset, Somerset, Devon and Cornwallf". [Natanleod (slain with 5000 in 508) ~ gwledig Naw Cant Lliwed “ruler of 900 (warrior) companies”?] Southampton geothermal. Solent.


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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2016 at 00:34
Crocea Mors of Caesar's invasion in Geoff of Monmouth's 'HRB' maybe even more confirms that Cruc Mawr of the Wonders of Britain matches the large cruciform platform at Richborough/Rutupiae.


I'm not sure if "Green Shield" in the table(s) is a mistake. One version has "Green Shield", other version has "Blue Shield", and the latter  may be more correct translation than the former.

"Green Shield"
~ green woods/Weald/Celidon wood/coverts/green man, or marble Camelot / marble at cruciform platform in Richborough?

"Blue Shield"
~ blue/green sea/Straits/wave, or copper/bronze, or cold Thanet/"Ireland", or blue dyed/painted Britons/Picts?

"White Shield"
~ white cliffs Dover/chalk Downs/Albion, "St Alban('s)", Albanact, "Snowdon", Arthur's shield, Guinnion/*Alborum, "Guinevere", marble Camelot / marble at cruciform platform in Richborough, and/or white "Picts"?

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Edited by Arthur-Robin - 03-Dec-2016 at 02:59
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2016 at 05:40

The fact that the Wonders of Britain also match the same sites as the 9 battle sites of Arthur, further confirms that our discovery is right and is not trash/crap like many others have asserted/assumed for the last 3 years (by opposition or by silence/ignoring).

Cruc Mawr (mawr/vawr means "big/large/giant") of the Wonders only-best matches the "large cruciform platform" at Richborough [city of the legion] combined with the Christian Cross.

Quote from the Wonders of Britain:

“There is another wonder in the region which is called Cereticiaun/Ceredigion / Cereciaunum/Ceretiaun/Ceretun/Ceretun/Ceretim/Ceretum. There is there a mountain, which is given the name Cruc Maur/Marc ["the great/big hill(ock)/heap/tumulus"], and there is a grave on the summit of it, and every man whosoever that will come to the grave and stretch himself out next to it, however short they will be, the grave and the man have been found within one length, and, if it will be that the man is short and small, similarly also it is found the length of the grave is like the height of the man, and, if he will be long and tall, even if he might be of length 4 cubits near the height of every man so the tumulus is discovered. And every wanderer who’s up to weariness, the man will bow 3 bows near that, he will not be beyond himself upto his day of death, and he will not be weighted down again by any weariness, even if he will go alone to the boundaries of the cosmos.”

In this following table we give the details of Cruc Mawr in the Wonders/HB/Nennius (left column) and the matches with our site (middle column) versus the orthodox site (right column). I can not see why/how orthodox Arthurians/academics/sceptics seemingly casually assert that we and our thesis is just all crap. This big X marks the spot and no one can say it can't match (equally if not more than their orthodox/traditional candidate).


Cruc Mawr (Wonders of Britain, Historia Britonum, "Nennius", Gerald of Wales, Evans)

Our candidate site of Richborough/Rutupiae ['City of the Legion'], & the Cross

The orthodox/traditional claimed site Banc-y-Warren hill/summit near [porth] Crugmore/Crug(mawr) farm (between Cardigan/Aberteifi and Lampeter/Pont-Stephen, Llangoedmore parish, Ceredigion, Wales). (Note: "actual location is still a little moot".)

is a "Wonder"

The large cruciform platform at Richborough qualifies as a wonder. The Cross/Crucifiction is stated by many to be one of the greatest wonders of AD western world history.


region "Cereticiaun".

[Perhaps compare Carannog/C(h)ernach, son of Ceredig, from Ceredigion?]

Cereticiaun could connect with either Caractacus of Roman invasion, or with Cerdic interpreter of Hengist (HRB), or with Cerdic/Cedric of West Saxons. Or, car/caer/cair can mean city/camp? St David was son of prince of Cereticu, and David has links with our south-east sites too. [Coroticus of St Patrick might also link with our site/area?] Cregcanford?? [Just to give the orthodox critics an excuse to trash it i will also add dubious/tenuous faint possibility of Crete & Thanet??]

Yes there is a cantref/shire called Ceredigion/Cardigan in Wales, but are there any other place/name candidates, and/or why can it not be a later namesake, or why can't Nennius have cleverly punned?

a "mountain" (& hill(ock)/heap/mound/tumulus, summit)

The cruciform platform at Richborough qualifies as a hillock/mountain/heap/mound. The crucifiction was also on or at the top of a hill (Golgotha/Calvary/'Skull Hill') too.

Yes theirs is a hill/summit, but doesn't also match other cross meaning.

name and/or meaning of "Cruc Mawr" (or Cruc Marc) "great/big hill(ock)/heap/tumulus/mound" [and/or "great/big/huge cross/crux/crucis/crucifix/crutch"] (and/or "yellow death" in HRB)

The "large/massive Cruciform platform" or quadrifrons at Richborough only best matches "big cross" better than any other site in Britain/World. The Crocea Mors in Geoff's HRB also is in area of Caesar's invasion. (The crucifiction was also on or at the top of a hill (Golgotha/Calvary/'Skull Hill') too.) Some other Cruc place names may also possibly match our Richborough/Rutupi & 'city of the legion' site (eg: Again's Cross of Padarn, Cruachan-Aichle of St Patrick)? (There is also place/name 'Stone Cross' at Sandwich, and 'the Cross' in Kent in maps/records.) [The "yellow" might link with "yellow" Camelot and/or 'Meil-ros' which also seem to match Richborough? (Compare yellow plague of Maelgwn of Rhos?) The platform is white & the building over/around it had marble.]

The small conical mound/hill &/or whole mountain site may match large hill(ock) but it doesn't match big cross. There are also one or two or three other place/name candidates (Crug Mawr mountain in Powys, Crugmeer farm in north Cornwall)? Craigmore in Antrim/Londonderry/Maghera)?) so which one of the 2/3/4 is it?

alternative name/meaning of Cruc Marc

x marks the spot? King Mark of "Cornwall" [~ Kent]? March/border? Marcus/Mark in Roman invasion?


tomb / grave (on summit) / tumulus

Evidences suggest that the cruciform platform at Richborough is certainly the grave or centoph or either Labienus/Laberius, or Julius/Aaron/Alban, or "Gawain", or Vortimer, or Brychan. The Christian Cross/Crucifiction / Calvary/Golgotha/Skull Hill is the death & burial site of "Jesus" Christ and of all Christians.

Yes there is a cairn on top, but otherwise pretty weak match with all the rest of the details.

fits everyman (short and long)

This fits the Christian ideas about the Cross/Crucifiction, eg “Jesus the perfect gift that fits every heart”. (Nennius was religious "Christian".) Also, one arm/bar of the Richborough platform (and of the christian cross) is shorter (& thicker) / longer (& thinner) than the other.)

How does the orthodox site only-best fit this?

4 (Roman?) cubits ["177.8 cm" or "259.6 cm"]

The 4 cubits of this wonder and the 20 cubits of the Font Guur Helig wonder may link with the arms of the cruciform platform at Richborough (since cubit is tip of finger to elbow of bent arm)? And/or it may link with Judaeo-Christian / Roman / British/Welsh / Frankish / Saxon cubits/heights? (Romano-British height 154.2-169.3 cm, 9th cent Northern European/Scandinavian height 173.4 cm, 12th cent Britons height 171.6 cm, Medieval avg height 171.26 cm, 2004 British mean height 177.2 cm. Romans and early christians and Saxons were mainly in south-east quarter of England/Britain.)


weary wanderers not weighted down anymore, not beyond self, even to bounds of cosmos. (Bows.)

This fits the Christian ideas about the Cross/Crucifiction. (Nennius was religious "Christian".)

How does the orthodox site only-best fit this?

3 (bows)

3 days (& 3 crosses & 3 nails) crucifiction (& the Trinity) perhaps? [Tremounus? Triputiensis?]


near preceding &/or succeeding wonders. (Is number 13/14/... / 13th/14th/... in set of 13/14/....)

The preceeding Wonder 'Amr's tomb' pretty certainly matches Countless Stones of the Medway megaliths [Celidon]. The next Wonder (in the primary version) 'sealess shore' apparently matches either the cliffs of Dover [Guinnion] or cliffs near Reculver [Bassas]. The next Wonder (in the alternative version) 'Brebic's stone (in a) cataract' may also match one of our south-east sites.

Some of the orthodox/traditional Wonders claimed sites are close but overall thay are scattered and have no other attested common connection as a set/group.

in the Wonders of Britain in the 'HB' of "Nennius" (which also has other Wonders, and also has the 12 battles 9 battle sites of Arthur). ("another wonder". Is number 13/14/... / 13th/14th/... in set of 13/14/....)

The other Wonders also match our 9 south-east SS sites. The 12 battles 9 battle sites of Arthur also match our 9 south-east SS sites. Nennius was traditionally reputed to have been at "Oxford" which seems to really be Reculver or Richborough in Wantsum-Stour area, or Epsford. "Nennius" was a "christian" so it is not surprising the connection with the cross.

Orthodox would have Nennius and/or Arthur romping massive lengths of almost the whole of Britain from Lomond (Wonders), to Wales (Wonders), to Anglesey or Isle of Man (Wonders), to Oxford (Asser), etc. Some claim that Nennius was in Wales/West not in Anglo-Saxon area, but I have not seen any really solid proofs/evidences for this.

is "Historia"

Ours matches with a real historical site.

Theirs matches with a real site but what is its attested history between Arthur/Nennius and 1188?

is in "(the island of) Britain"

is in Great Britain

is in Wales (which is in Great Britain)

omitted in Irish HB

Is it concidence that the 4 Wonders which we had found to certainly seem to match Richborough/Rutupi & City of the Legion are all 4 omitted in the Irish HB?


date (of HB/Nennius). (Before 1188.) (After Caesar's invasion, before Geoff of Monmouth/HRB.) (Omitted in the later date Irish HB.) [Arthur was "before Ida".]

Geoff's HRB has Crocea Mors in Caesar's invasion. Date/author of HB/"Nennius" is disputable/uncertain. Large cruciform platform has been at Rutupi/Richborough from "ca 1st cent ad" to the present, and may be grave/cenotaph of Labienus or St Julius or ..., or monument of Claudius invasion? [Eclipse calends Julius 540 (ASC)?]

[A king Ceredig died in 615.] [Arthur king/lord of Ceredigion died & solar eclipse in 807.] (Ceredigion mentions in 871, 894, 987, 992, 1072.) (A battle fought at/near the site in 1093/1094, and) Traditiional site recorded in 1188, Crug Maur farm mentioned in 1895, and is Modern candidate site. Some orthodox assert date of HB/Nennius is certain time/author, others say not certain time/author.

armour broken to pieces

Crocea Mors?


According to some sources Cruc Mawr or Cruc Marc seems to be connected with "Brychan’s sepulchre" which is in/near Mannia/Mynav. [Compare St Minver/Menfre in the 15 children of Brychan.]

Brychan's sepulchre seemingly matches either the Reculver Cross & Arthur's grave (& retreat of Brecheinawc/Gafran), or the cruciform platform at Richborough, or Medway megaliths. (Brycheiniog named from Brychan.) (Birchington?) Vallis/Valley of Brychan/Rosina/Wedale/Avalon fits Wantsum-Stour (and/or fits difference between Dover & Richborough). A "certain regulus" Brychan (Vita Cadog) may link with Regulbium/Reculver? There is a 'Minnis bay' near Reculver (& Richborough). "Nennius" analogously corresponded "Mon(a)/Anglesey"/"Man" and Thanet in the Wonders (and some versions of Watlling Str link both places at either ends).


The analogous later traditional site Banc-y-Warren hill/summit near [porth] Crugmore/Crug(mawr) farm (between Cardigan/Aberteifi and Lampeter/Pont-Stephen, Llangoedmore parish, Ceredigion, Wales). (Aberteifi/Cardigan which was an island.) ("Sand Pit".) (Aberteivi "the key to all Wales".)

Our site was a port. There was a font at Rutupi/Richborough. The metropolis of Padarn/Paternus seems to match Richborough/Rutupi & city of the legion. Peter in Kent in 601-3, 616/617-618. (St Patrick may also possibly link with our site?) Peter means Stone/rock which may match our site. Church of Stephen of Camelot may be church at Richborough or the cruciform platform building/structure at Richborough? Stephen as a first martyr may link (with St Julius/Alban, and) with Labienus of Caesar's invasion? (Our site is near mouth of river Stour/Wantsum.) In Roman times Rutupiae was (on) an island, &/or Thanet was an island. 'Sandwich'? Rutupi/Richborough fits key to Britain ('City of the Legion') (compare the Gwensteri and "subdue Lloegyr" of Gwallawg/Taliesin).

Their site can be a later analogous namesake.

[calends July & calends May 1093 kerediegean battle Wales.]

St Julius & Aaron & Alban of 'city of the legion'. Julius Caesar's invasion. Calends of Julius 540 (ASC/Ethelwerd). Calends of July of 3 solemnities of Padarn.


[surely must/may also be in other Roman/Welsh/Saxon sources.]

Many other sources seem to match this and the other 8 of all the 9 south-east SS sites (12 battles, Wonders, Pa Gur, 12 Monasteries, etc).

The traditional site can be a later "lifted" analogous namesake. Nowhere near as many sources qualitatively match the orthodox/traditional site(s).


Oh no thats right, i am just a "fringe"/"pseudo-science" "word games"/"sounds like" "Antiquarian" "Nibiruan" "nonsense" spouter, playing with ignorance", "arguing negatives/lack of evidence", "not plausible" not "rational", with "no evidences" who "the burden/onerous of proof is all on", who "has been refuted", without "peer review", "repeating self like a broken record", who "thinks I am better than anyone else", "banned from Historum for same stuff last time" and many more things people have smeared me online with. And "Nennius" is just "unreliable" "lifted" etc. And "Arthur" is just "has wasted more words than any other subject", "a ship in a bottle", "fun", "embellished", "made up by Nennius/Geoff/Wace". And the 12 battles is just "only one name" or "too scanty" and "impossible" to match, and/or "can be found anywhere", and we only found it because "such a wide area, and "had wrong premise" and "forced it to fit". I "haven't done enough decade hard work".

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2016 at 08:54


This is a table on the city of the legion / "Caerleon" 6th battle site of 9th battle (of Arthur) (of Nennius/HB) briefly comparing match with our Richborough/Rutupiae versus 9 other mainstream hitherto proposed candidate sites. (We haven't done/finished all boxes/columns but there is enough for general information.)


City of the Legion / Cair Lion [of Arthur] (in HB/Nennius, Irish HB, HRB/Geoff, '24 ks & 33 cities', DEB/Gildas)

Richborough / Rutupiae (ND) (me, Evans) [& "Leomister" (12 Monasteries), & 'Liganburh' 571 (ASC)?]

Chester / Deva Victrix (Jackson, Peter Graham, local tradition, news, etc)

Caerleon / Isca Augusta / Isca Silurium, Wales(Geoff / HRB, local tradition, etc)

York / Ebrauc / Sextae (Hunt, etc)

Dumbarton / Kairlium (Skene, McHardy)

Carhaix, or St Pol de Leon, Leon, Brittany (Zoetropo)

Trimontium / Melrose , Scotland (Ardrey)

Carlisle (Wiki)

Exeter (OEC)

Portchester (Collingwood)

fought/called by Arthur/Britons

There are evidences of/for Britons in Kent around this time. Kent & Canterbury are British/Welsh names. Medway was border of Welsh & Saxons. ....

Britons/Welsh were not limited to Wales & Cumbria until after Chester in early 600s ad according to orthodox academics own sources. Chester 600s battle wrong/different leader.

The Britons / Welsh were not limited by Saxons to Wales and Cornwall until after Dyrham in 577, and to not Wales and Cumbria until after the battle of Chester in 600s according to orthodox academics own sources.(All 3 of Cornish, Welsh, Cumbrian retain Arthurian links.) "Wurdesten speaks of the Britons leaving their ancestral land when the Saxons occupied it"?




Britons were not limted to Cumbria until after Chester in early 600s. (Britons not Scots/Irish / Picts.) (All 3 of Cornish, Welsh, Cumbrian retain Arthurian links.)

Britons were not limted to Cumbria until after Chester in early 600s. (All 3 of Cornish, Welsh, Cumbrian retain Arthurian links.)

Britons were not limited to Cornwall/Devon & Wales until after Dyrham. (All 3 of Cornish, Welsh, Cumbrian retain Arthurian links.)


number 6/6th/middle in a set of 9 sites.(Near Tribruit, Guinnion, [and Celidon, or Bassas.])

Richborough is number 5 in an attested set of 9 battle sites which all match Nennius in order.

(Cross-switch match of 6th battle / 5th battle site confirmed between sources: City of Legion 6th (HB), Dissethach 5th (PG), Leominster/Lynn-Liuan 6th/7th (12 Monasteries), Lynn Liuan 6th (Wonders), Legecester 5th (HRB), Richborough/Rutupi 5th/7th.) City of the Legion is near Guinnion, and/or is near either Celidon, Bassas, or Tribruit.

Chester is not number 6/5 in an attested set of 9 battle sites which all match Nennius in numeric and geographic order. They can proove match on only one or a weak few of the 9 battle sites.

Caerleon is not number 6/5 in an attested set of 9 battle sites which all match Nennius in order. (though is inside 12 Monasteries area)

York is not number 6/5 in an attested set of 9 battle sites which all match Nennius in order. Sextae could possibly link but match is otherwise weak.


Brittany site is not number 6 in an attested set of 9 battle sites which all match Nennius 9 sites in order. (Though it is in 7/9 Breton saints)

NOT number 6/5 in an attested set of 9 sites (though Ardrey has an artificial/arbitrary set of 9 sites)

NOT number 6/5 in a set of 9

NOT number 6/5 in a set of 9

NOT number 6/5 in a set of 9 (is number 9/last in set of 9 SS sites)

a "battle" there (~ strategic, works/defenses/fortification) (British won.)

Is strategic (eg Saxon Shore). The fort and possible traces of battles fought there.

Not strategic at the time. Too far North and West. Not anymuch (West) Saxons (not Angles) there then. 613 battle wrong outcome. "Chester" 613 not mentioned in Chronicle of Werburgh?

Not strategic at the time. Too far West. Not anymuch (West) Saxons there then.

Not strategic. Too far North. Not anymuch (West) Saxons (not Angles) there then.


Not strategic; Too far away; Not anymuch (West) Saxons there then.



Not strategic at the time


in/at











urbe/city

Rutupi/Richborough was a "city" / "civitas"/"orbs" / "metropolis".

legion camp/chester may conflict with legion city/orbs? The 2 AC/WA city of legion entries maybe well be different places: synod ‘Urbs/Urbis Legionum/Legion(is)/ligionis’/"Chester" 601/602 (AC), and battle ‘Cair/Caer Legion’/"Chester" (brocmail/"bangor") 613/614 (AC). Nennius' 'urbs/city of legion' is different to his 2 legion cities in his cities of Britain list ('Cairligion/Cair Legion'/"Chester", and 'Cairlion'/"Caerleon").

Nennius' 'urbs/city of legion' is different to his 2 legion cities in his cities of Britain list ('Cairligion/Cair Legion'/"Chester", and 'Cairlion'/"Caerleon").








legionis/legion(s)

legion 2 Augusta. (Some arch-critics claim there was supposedly no legion there then at time of Arthur/Nennius, or that only part / garrison of legion not main base. The legion at Rutupi is closer date than the legion at Caerleon.) CoL is city of the legion singular which matches Rutupi. The plural legions may not be correct, or it may be 2ndarily correct. Legions plural could also match Richboroughi as landing place of Roman invasion legions, tho scholars dispute where the landing place was.

legion victrix. If they can claim our site supposedly didn't have a legion at the time of Arthur/Nennius, well then their own site certainly does not?

legion 2 Augusta at Caerleon legion was also later at Rutupi/Richborough. If they can claim our site supposedly didn't have a legion at the time of Arthur/Nennius, well then their own site certainly does not?

legion sextae


St Pol de Leon. Carhaix of Prince of Leon. Yet there is also possibly Lyon & St Guinefort of Stephen de Bourbon?





name &/or meaniing of 'urbe legionis' "city of the legion"

Nennius' 'urbs/city of legion' is different to his 2 legion cities in his cities of Britain list ('Cairligion/Cair Legion'/"Chester", and 'Cairlion'/"Caerleon"). [Lygeanburg /Liganburh 571 ASC may match city of the legion & Richborough in Kent in my opinion from certain evidences in ASC etc.] [St Paerburge of Legcester of Pa Halgan may possibly be in Kent?

[Chester is Romano-Saxon name?] "How Deva came to be the name of Chester or the Castra Legionis (whence the Welsh Caer Lleon) is not clear"? Orthodox and everyone can not even decide/prove which of their "only 2 (or 3) possible" sites (Caerleon or Chester (or York)) CoL supposedly is. [ASC 571 Lygeanburg/Liganburh can not be Chester.] "Chester" 613 not mentioned in Chronicle of Werburgh?

Was Caerleon called that before 800 ad? Caerleon (Romano-British name) was called Isca Augusta /Silurium? HB doesn't say "on Usk". [Lygeanburg 571 can't be Caerleon.] Orthodox are wrong to adamantly assert that there are only 2 or 3 candidates (Caerleon, Chester, (York)) because they're the only 2 known places called city/camp of the legion, & the 3 est legionary bases in Roman Britain. There were legions at some other places in history of Britain, incl at Rutupi.

York was not ever called city of the legion (though zoetropo claims it was somewhere). York was called York /Ebrauc /Sextae. Even orthodox academics favour Chester or Caerleon and don't favour York. [ASC 571 Lygeanburg/Liganburh can not be York.] CoL and York are mentioned as distinct places in Arthurian sources. Orthodox and everyone can not even decide/prove which of their "only 2 (or 3) possible" sites (Caerleon or Chester (or York)) CoL supposedly is.


Not sure any Brittany site was ever called city of the legion? St Pol de Leon. [ASC 571 Lygeanburg/Liganburh can not be in Brittany.]





gloss called/name Cair_Lion

legio 2 augusta at Rutupi was "from Caerleon".


CairLion is a gloss. Nennius doesn't say "(up)on Usk"


Cairlion is a gloss. Dumbarton was at some time called /Kairlium.






legio 2 Augusta(implied from "Cairlion" in HB, and "on Usk"(and "Augusel"?) in other sources). [month Aug/Sept?]

right legion (legio augusta from caerleon later at Rutupi), closest time.

wrong legion (Victrix)

the legion was at Richborough closer to the right time

wrong legion (Sextae)


Wrong legion?





"against [West] Saxons" [Cerdic, Colgrin, Baldulf] [not Angles].

There were many/much (West) Saxons there then. The (Anglo-/West) Saxons were mainly between the Wash and Solent (the 'Saxon Shore'). Colingwood said Nennius' words imply Arthur was fighting Kentishmen.

Not anymuch (West) Saxons (not Angles) there then. The Britons were not limited by Saxons to Wales and Cumbria until after the battle of Chester in 600s according to orthodox academics own sources.

Not anymuch (West) Saxons there then. The Britons were not limited by Saxons to Wales and Cornwall until after Dyrham in 577, and to not Wales and Cumbria until after the battle of Chester in 600s according to orthodox academics own sources.

Not strategic. Too far North. Not anymuch (West) Saxons (not Angles) there then.


Not anymuch (West) Saxons there then (though Saxon Shore is & Germanics were raiding both sides of English Channel). (Saxon Shore is either both sides or just British side?)





date "before Ida" ["c 547"]

The legion at Rutupi is closer date than the legion at Caerleon. [Calends Julius 540? Liganburh 571?]

Chester 600s ad battle is the wrong/different time/date. The later battle not just source would have been copied from the earlier.

Caerleon legion was later (closer to 547) at Rutupi/Richborough. If they can claim our site supposedly didn't have a legion at the time of Arthur/Nennius, well then their own site certainly does not?








in "HB/Nennius" (which also has the Wonders)

Some of the Wonders of Britain match Richborough/Rutupi, especially Cruc Mawr (large cruciform platform at Richborough), Lynn Liuan.










is "history"(ie 'Historia Britonum')











in "(island of) Britain".

Is in Great Britain. ["Britannia Minor" of some other source/s could refer to some minor-like prominent part/province/promonitory of Britain/Britannia such as the Downs/Weald/Kent/Albion?]





Brittany is not in the island of Britain





archbishop Dubricius / Dyfrig (HRB, AC?)

Richborough is near Dubris / Dover (&/or to Doruvernis/Canterbury). (Confirmed by Dubriactus in Taliesin?)

Does not have any Dubricius match like ours has. [The only possibility could be Deverdoeu [Dyfrdwy] but wouldn't be "linguistically sound".]

Does not have any indisputably concrete Dubricius match like ours has.

Does not have any Dubricius match like ours has. York was archbishop Sanxo.


Does not have any Dubricius match like ours has.





St Julius & Aaron & Alban & Amphibalus. [Leo/July?]. Jugein of Legecester.

Has match for 3 close to each other Sts sites (Julius = Richborough /CoL, Aaron = Reculver /Avalon, Alban = Dover /Guinnion).(Rutupiae built 277-285, & St Alban martyr 283?) Julius Caesar (& Laberius)? [Calends of Julius 540 ASC, & calends of July of Padarn match Richboorugh & CoL? Date of St Julius /Aaron is 1st of July.] CoL had a church of Julius, this might be the building over the large cruciform platform? [Church of Stephen at Camelot. Stephen 1st martyr.]

Has no match for 2/3/4 close to each other Saints sites (Julius/CoL, Aaron, Alban, Amphibalus). Chester has no provable St Julius origins connection. The tradition of Sts Julius & Aaron at Chester is admitted by investigators as weak/no evidence. Chester is not close to St Alban (though source claims Chester is "the white city"). Julius & Aaron can't be in two places at sametime (both Chester & Caerleon have traditional claims).

Has no match for 2/3/4 close to each other Saints sites (Julius/CoL, Aaron, Alban, Amphibalus). Julius & Aaron can't be in two places at sametime (both Chester & Caerleon have traditional claims). Caerleon has no verified St Julius origins match. Caerleon is not close to St Alban.

Has no match for 2/3/4 close to each other Saints sites (Julius/CoL, Aaron, Alban, Amphibalus). York has no St Julius (Julius Caesar). York is not close to St Alban except Scottish Alba / Albany.


Has no match for 2/3/4 close to each other Saints sites (Julius/CoL, Aaron, Alban, Amphibalus). Brittany does not have as good / strong St Julius [Julius Caesar] origins matches as Richborough / Rutupi does. Brittany is not so close to St Alban.





St Julius (& St Alban (& St Amphibalus)) (continued)

St Alban is linked with St Germanus. The grave of St Alban might be the cruciform platform at Richborough [& grave of Gawain at Rutupi /Peryddon?] (it may be grave of Labienus?) (Albinus Abbot of St Augustine's, Canterbury??) (Amphibalus is also in Winchester, while Arthurian "Winchester"/Guintonhi is Guinnion/Dover.) Julliberies grave?










"Arthur's capital". ("2nd Rome", "chief city of Britain", "principal archbishop" "loved & honored Caerleon on the Usk more than any other place"); "one of the most important cities in Britain"; "metropolitan see", one of "3 renowned cities".) ["Metropolis of Padarn".]

Rutupi / Richborough was "their primary station / the metropolis / this city was of such celebrity that" (ref "R. of C."). Is one of the best preserved Roman sites in Britain. ["Metropolis of Padarn". Taliesin's Gwensteri key to Lloegyr.] (Thanet also had a name that is similar looking/sounding to "Rome"?)

I don't think that Chester qualifies as this.









round table there. [Amphi-balus?]

Has very round / circular Amphi-teahtre and it is analogous to the amphi-theatre RT tradition of Caerleon, and the amphi-theatre RT tradition of Chester. Rutupiae "red top"?

The amphi-theatre Round Table tradition of Chester is weak.

No other evidence for Caerleon amphi-theatre RT tradition.








Caer Lleon and "Jerusalem" were built about the same time (ref '24 kings & 33 cities') implying it was close to a "Jerusalem" site.

"Jerusalem" (cross) is Uerolamiensem" / "Verulam / "St Alban's" (Gildas), which is Dover (white /Albion), which is Guinnion (cross).










"Gildas clearly states that this place [city of the legion] is unacessable to British people." (And/or, other sources seem to imply CoL was deserted &/or waste?) [CoL Wonders omitted in Irish HB.] Gildas says "neither to this day are our cities inhabited ... forsaken & overthrown" [which fits ASC 571 & 577].

It qualifies for inaccessible &/or deserted &/or waste.

"If this was Chester it would hardly be unacessable." Surely Chester was not uninhabited by Britons in Gildas' lifetime before the 613 battle of "Chester"?

It was not inaccessible (Gildas) or deserted or waste. "Wurdesten speaks of the Britons leaving their ancestral land when the Saxons occupied it"?



It was not inaccessible (Gildas) &/or deserted &/or waste?





Tremounus of Legions (HRB). [Trimontium / Mel-rose (Adam Ardrey).]

May link with Triputiensis/Rutupi, or Trinovantum/"London" (there are some possible indications of links between London & Richborough, though name supposed to be from Trinovantes not New Troy). [Or else Cruc Mawr?] [Mel-ros (& Rhos) & Wedale seem to connect with CoL / Richborough / Camelot & Reculver.]





Trimontium ["lifted / recycled"].





not far from Isneldone/Sinadon/"Snowdon" "snow hill".

Richborough is near North Downs (chalk), Dover (white, Albion), and a Snowdown.










on the banks of a river like the "Usk"

Richborough is similarily on the (Wantsum-)Stour. [Stour name may match similar names in some Welsh sources?]

Chester is on the Dee/Deva

Caerleon is on the Uske ["Uske" can be analogous / lifted / wrong]. Nennius doesn't say "(up)on Usk".

York is on/by Ure.







"David bishop of Merlin's town Caerleon"











[city of Lions / Lyonesse is between land's end & Scilly islands [in "s.w."]?]

Richborough is at analogous opposite s.e. lands end, and by Thanet (and/or archaelogists say Richborough/Rutupi was once (on) an island?) Richborough in east is sort-of analogous to Caerleon in west?


Caerleon is not really so. Caerleon in west is sort-of analogous to Richborough in east?

York is not really lands end.







[Lynn Liuan is at/nearby CoL (eg Leominster & Linn Liuan, Caerleon & Lynn Liuan, HB has both CoL & LL, Irish HB omits CoL / Richborough wonders). "The fastness/dwellings of Dissethach" of Pa Gur (5th) matches City of the Legion of HB (6th), and matches Lynn Liuan (6th in HB, 5th in 12 Monasteries).]

Lynn Liuan (& Dissethach) seems to match Richborough/Rutupi (or Ebbsfleet?) area then.










Aurelius /Ambrosius was Roman-blooded.


Chester is in the unromanised region of britain not in romanised region of britain in the map "Post-Roman Britain (Anglo-Saxon Cemeteries) (based on Jones & Mattingly's Atlas of Roman Britain)".









[CoL may be linked with number 1000(0) (via Carmarthen, via Taliesin 1000 sons)?]

[I sure i saw it said that Richborough/Rutupi held about 1000?]

"the II Augusta had reduced a lot [to 1/10]";

"Legio 2nd Britannica ... just 1,000 strong by then [ear 5th cent?]".










[CoL is maybe "down road from" a "Bangor" (& an abbey) site analogously like Chester is?]

"Bangor" & abbey might link with Reculver (& monastery-church) [Bassas / Avalon]?

Chester is "just down the road from Bangor"?









[City of legion is linked with St Paerburge &/or Werburgh? Metropolis of St Padarn? Llanbadarn?]

St Paerburge of Legecester in Pa Halgan may be in Kent? Metropolis/solemnities/churches of Padarn may match CoL & Richborough?

Chester's Werburgh can have been "lifted". [Werburgh female in some sources but male on some other sources.]









CoL had a church (of Julius) or minster ["Leominster"]. [Camelot had church of St Stephen.]

I think i saw that Richborough had a church, &/or it did have building over the cruciform platform.










Implied links with Paulinus, Augustine, Germanus.[Augusel?]

Augustine & Paulinus were in Kent. Germanus had links with St Alban who can only be in Downs. [Legio 2 Augusta?]

Germanus battle Maes Garmon near Mold [near Chester] is dubious. St Augustine synod at "Chester" ['Augustine's Ac' "Augustine's Oak" "on the borders of the Hwiccas" c603?] also seems dubious to me? (Though Ethelbert did extend his sphere to Humber.)




St Pol of Leon.





CoL and York are mentioned as distinct places in Arthurian sources. Nennius' 'urbs/city of legion' is different to his 2 legion cities in his cities of Britain list ('Cairligion/Cair Legion'/"Chester", and 'Cairlion'/"Caerleon").

Richborough is distinct from York, Chester, Caerleon.










surely must also be in other Latin/Welsh/Saxon sources too

Our site also matches Dissethach of PaGur, Gwensteri of Gwallawg, Lynn Liuan & Cruc Mawr of Wonders, etc. The extended version of Watling street links 2 city of legion candidates Richborough/Rutupi and Chester. Taliesin's Gwallawg battles seem to parallel Nennius' Arthur battles, Taliesin's Gwensteri key to Lloegyr corresponds to Nennius' city of the legion and fits Rutupi/Richborough. Mari Lwyd in Caerleon similar to Hoodening in Padstow (Petroc's, Cornwall), Kent, & Cheshire links 3 CoL sites?

A "Chester" battle is in AC/WA, but wrong name/words and wrong date and wrong outcome. The later battle not just source would have been copied from the earlier. The extended version of Watling street links 2 city of legion candidates (Richborough / Rutupi and Chester). Mari Lwyd (St Mary) in Caerleon similar to Hoodening in Padstow (Petroc's, Cornwall), & in Kent, & in Cheshire. This links 3 city of legions sites. West Chester implies an east Chester?

Amphitheatres of Caerleon, Chester & Richborough all analogous. Caerleon in west is sort-of analogous to Richborough in east? Mari Lwyd (St Mary) in Caerleon similar to Hoodening in Padstow (Petroc's, Cornwall), & in Kent, & in Cheshire. This links 3 city of legions sites. I have yet to check if the Mynde of Caerleon could link with our Cruc Mawr of Richborough (&/or Tremounus/Trimontium)? [Newport imply an old port??]

CoL and York are mentioned as distinct places in Arthurian sources. [ASC 571 Lygeanburg/Liganburh can not be York.]

Dumbarton/Dunbrettan "fort of the Britons/Britain" aka Alcluith (ail "rock" + river Clyde) actually points to being an analogous namesake "lifted" from Dover / Braddon [Guinnion / Badon] as the fort of Britons /Britain / Albion?

Gwenedeg/Vannes and Leon are only possibly analogous lifted/recycled namesakes of Guinnion and City of (the) Legion(s).





Supported by other scholars

Some other academics like Evans have suggested Richboroughi, they only dismissed it because they believed south-east was Anglo-Saxon.

Orthodox and everyone can not even decide/prove which of their "only 2 (or 3) possible" sites (Caerleon or Chester (or York)) CoL supposedly is.

Some orthodox academics favour Chester over Caerleon.

Orthodox and everyone can not even decide/prove which of their "only 2(or 3) possible" sites (Caerleon or Chester (or York)) CoL supposedly is.

Even orthodox academics favour Chester or Caerleon and don't favour York. Orthodox and everyone can not even decide/prove which of their "only 2 (or 3) possible" sites (Caerleon or Chester (or York)) CoL supposedly is.


Orthodox academics favour only Chester or Caerleon or York and don't favour Brittany.





All details of CoL (& all 9 sites) of HB (& all sources)

They rejrected all our quality match(es) evidences for this site for only one over-rigid theoretical reason. We have a CoL site and 9 sites match(es) which are far stronger in evidences than others' candidates theories.

They can not just base an identification on only one or a few details of the battle site (like name match) & 1 site or few sites not 9.










Can't really beat the Cruc Mawr table in last post though.

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2016 at 04:33
Another of the Wonders of Britain, since the Wonders confirm that the 9 Battle sites of Arthur do match the 9 Saxon Shore sites, and since this one may confirm Arthur's body was at Reculver.

The Levitating Altar. Quote from Wonders of Britain / Historia Britonum of "Nennius":

“There is another wonder in Gu(h)yr/Guiher/Gower/Gubir/Guhir :/- an/the altar(,) which (is) in (the place(, which is) called) Lorigaruch/Loyngarth/Loingraib/Llygraib/Loiguarch /Llwynarth/Lingarthica ["grove of the bear" or llymarch "an oyster"] ,/. it/which is heldup/supported(intheair) { by the will of god / , although the height of a man above the earth} . It seems better to me to narrate/tell the (hi)story of that/this altar than to stay/keep silent. Forithappenedthat/Butthefactis,while Saint Iltut(us)/Illtud was worshiping/praying in a/the cave/spelunca, which is near/nextto the sea, which washes/laps against the land/ground of/at the (afore)said place, ((for) the mouth of the cave(, also,) is on/to the sea), and(,) beheld/behold, a ship/boat was approaching/sailing towards him ( from the sea,) and two men (were)sailing her/it(,) and the corpse/body of a holy man was with them in the boat(,) and an/the altar (was/suspendedinair) above/over (the) face (of) it/his(,) which was supported/heldup by the will of god(.) and the man of god [Iltut] hasadvancedintheirway/wentforwardtomeetthem, and the corpse/body of the holy man(,) and the altar stayed/remained inseparably above/over/before the face of the holy/saint’s body.
 And they have said to saint Iltut(us): “that/this man of god (has) entrusted tous/usto (, in orderthatwemight) bring/draw him/thatperson to you and (we might) bury him with you, and (the) name (of) him/his you may/shall not reveal to any person/man, (so) that men may/should not swear by him.” (And they buried him, and after his burial ) Th(os)e two men wentback/returned to the ship/boat and (they have) sailed (away). But that/this saint Iltut(us) (has) founded/ established a church around/near/over the corpse/body of the holy man and around/near the altar(,) and it continues all the time to this present day the altar is supported/heldup by the will of god. A certain minor/pettyking/Regulus hascome/came to/,inorderthathemight test (it), carrying a twig/stick/rod in his hand(s); he hasformedacurve/movedit around the altar and (he has) held the twig/stick in/by both hands by/from both/either sides/end(,) and (he has) drawn/pulled it to(wards) him(self) in such a way the truth of that thing/matter he has proved/tested(,) and he/thatperson afterwards during the month uninjured/untouched died. Another (man)/(in truth [?for the truth]) under the altar (has) looked and the sight of the/his eyes (he has) lost(,) and before the/awhole month (had passed)/(uninjured/untouched) his life (he has) ended.”

(Sorry the quote iss abit awkward in a few places due to trying to combine different English versions.)

Levitating Altar (Wonders of Britain, Historia Britonum, "Nennius")

our site Reculver Cross, or Margate Caves [Bassas]

orthodox site/sites rock-arch by Knab Rock, & chapel on/nearby Knab Rock, close to “Bob’s Cave” on Mumbles Head, Ystum-llwynarth in Gower; or Wilson & Blacket's site cave at Ewenny, in Coed y Mwstwr forest

is number 10/9/last of 14/13/11/10 [or 9] Wonders of Britain of 32/31 / 27/26 / 21 / [21 or] 20 [or 19] / 20/17 / 13 / 10 Wonders. ("another wonder".)

[Evidence suggests that Arthur's grave at "Avalon" / "Baschurch" / "levitating altar" was at Reculver [Bassas]. Camlan is 10th/last after 9 battle sites of Arthur of Nennius. Boso of Ridoc is 11th in HRB.] The previous and following wonders also seem to match sites in same Kent or south-east quarter area, and they are all attested as connected in other sources (HB, ND, etc). (Next wonder the returning plank seems to have been at Richborough.)

i have not seen orthodox show if/how/that theirs is number 10/9/last? Orthodox have Nennius wonders jumping all over Wales & Britain (Lomond, Cardigan, Gwent, Buelt, Gower, Severn, Anglesey), and they are not attested as connected in any other sources.

is a "Wonder"

Reculver Cross qualifies as a "wonder". Arthur's grave is also called an eternal wonder is the grave of Arthur in Black Book of Carmarthen.

does their arch qualify as much as a "wonder" of Britain?

in Gu(h)yr/Guiher/Gower/Gubir/Guhir. [Gower is either Welsh "wedge-shaped piece of land" or "a goat/caper" or "on the right" or "man"?, or else is Norman place-name like Gohiere (region north of Paris) or Gouy which latter is from Roman personal name Gaudius.] Compare langemelach/llann Gyfiielach/llangyvelach/llann GyfUelach/llangyfelach, Gower/guhir/gwyr in 12 Monasteries list. Urien(s) of Gore [Voirre/Goirre/Gorre?]

Gower in Wales is a peninsula; Reculver is a "great headland/promontory". [Bassas may also mean "forehead"? Possibly compare the orthodox Mumbles Head?] (Sub-)King Guoyrancgonus of Kent? Guiderius just before Claudius invasion? Guhir is next after "Raglan" in 12 Monasteries list. [Will tenuously add that there may be an analogous traditional link of "Bangor" (in Arvon) "down road from Chester" with Reculver not far from Richborough [city of the legion]?]

yes their candidate site is in modern "Gower", but they refuse to consider if there are any other places/names candidates, and refuse to consider if it is an analogous namesake, or if there was any "lifting", or if Nennius cleverly punned/conflated. They should not just believe or reject a match only on one or few details not all the details/evidences.

Wilson & Blacket's is in Glamorgan/Gwent. [Gower is in westernmost Glamorgan.]

in Lorigaruch/Loyngarth/Loingraib /Llygraib/Loiguarch /Llwynarth/Lingarthica [Loyngarth/Llwynarth "grove/wood of the bear", or Llwyn garth "Grove/Bush/Scrub Hill/Enclosure", or llymarch "an oyster"]

Richborough/Rutupiae and Reculver are famous for oysters there. Rutupiae was thought to be (in) a wood in Roman source. St Leonards Church at Deal? [St Leonard's forest?] Loyngarth may link with Camas Longart/Longphort (on Loch Long), which may link with Camelot &/or Llongborth, which may link with Richborough/Rutupiae? (Arthur may mean "bear", and Arthur's 9 battle sites match the 9 Saxon Shore sites.)

Ystum-llwynarth/Llwyngarth/Llygraib "Llwynarth Bend [Bay?]" (~ Oystermouth bay, the Mumbles, Gower)? [Could be later analogous namesake or "lifting".]

Wilson & Blacket's site is in wood/Coed y Mwstwr forest.

"Levitating/floating altar". held up / supported (in the air) { by the will of god / , although the height of a man above the earth}. (Suspened in the air over face. Altar stayed/remained inseparably above/over/before the face.) ("under the altar (has) looked".) [Possibly compare Carannog's altar?]

the Reculver Cross and stone base/altar?* And/or the “altar chamber” at Margate caves?

* [The christian cross may be thought of as levitating &/or altar? 'Calvary Cross' has 3 steps base.] Might be confirmed in the cross being connected with Iltud at Llantwit in Wales (inscribed “Samson placed his cross here for his soul, the soul of Iltud…”)? The "height of a man" may link with Arthur's real size cross which was preserved at "Wedale" [which possibly may really be Reculver]?

[Alternatively, there was an arch or arches at Richborough?]

"a now-destroyed rock-arch which once stood by Knab Rock", or Maen Cetti "The Stone of Cetti or the Ark" (some seven miles distant, Gower)?

St Iltud. [Compare Ilud/Juliana in children of Brychan?]

“Iltud ordained by Dubricius” / “Dyfrig was the confessor of Iltud”. "Dyfrig/Dubricius (bishop) of Legions" connects with Dubris/Dover, or with Durovernum/Canterbury, or Durobrivae/Rochester, while the city of the legion is Richborough/Rutupi. Another source says Iltud ordained by Germanus? Germanus/Garmon (or Germans) more likely in south-east. [Not sure if Iltud could possibly be Gildas who was reputed to be at "Oxford"/Ridoc?]


cave/spelunca

the caves of Birchington? or (the “altar chamber” at) Margate caves? or Chislehurst caves? Arthur's Avalon may be connected with "hollow hill".

“Bob’s Cave” on Mumbles Head? "neither the cave nor the church have been identified". Evans says why Wilson & Blacket's cave at Ewenny / cave in Coed y Mwstwr forest doesn't match.

near the sea. (ship/boat.)

Reculver/Margate is near the sea. [Camlan may have been near Richborough/Sandwich or else at Sutton Hoo?]


mysterious body/corpse of the/a sancti hominis "holy man / man of god" [suggested by some to be "(King) Arthur"]

The mysterious body of levitating altar (& 2 men) may be "Magnanimous Arthur" (who bore cross at Guinnion/Badon) (& Bedver & Lucan (instead of 3 women)), esp since Llwynarth "grove of the bear" could link with Arthur "bear"; and the L.A. certainly seems to match Reculver Cross. Arthur's grave is called an eternal wonder is the grave of Arthur in Black Book of Carmarthen.

Avalon of Arthur is hall of isle of Afallach in Triads which matches Afarnach's Hall (4th/3rd) of PaGur which matches Bassas (3rd) and Reculver (4th). Avalon is in North Sea in Irish. (Arthur's Avalon may be connected with "hollow hill", which may link with Margate caves?) Isle ~ peninsula? Vale may link with Wantsum-Stour? [St Aaron of Legions? Avene/Cerdicesford? Urien's craggy bed & Arvon's shore & Bencor in Arvon?] Pomona & Reculver "promontory"? Appled Ash of Wonders also in area?

Arthur said to repose at Baschurch, which matches our Bassas (of Nennius) and (monastery-church at) Reculver.

Compare the retreat of Brecheinawc/Gafran of Gwallawg?

Arthur's grave supposedly at Glastonbury. Reculver has a connection with "former abbot of Glastonbury". Appled Ash & Glastonbury Thorn?

(Camlan may be "Bedcanford", and may have been near Richborough/Sandwich, or else Sutton Hoo?)

(Chislehurst is also connected with Merlin.)

[Alternatively, the body of Dover Painted house? Dover is Guinnion of HB & Eidyn 2 of PG. Arthur buried at Etna may link with Eidyn?]


a Church founded/ established around/near/over the corpse/body of the holy man and around/near the altar.

the monastery-church [of St Mary] built around the Reculver Cross. (Or else the “vicarage holy trinity church” at Margate? Or the church of the holy cross near these sites?) [Compare "Baschurch", which connects with Bassas and Reculver. Plus 'Eglwysau Bassa' "churches of Bassa". There is also a Basilica in Reculver inscription. Possibly also compare Wedale which also may connect back to Reculver?] [Marham church of children of Brychan link with Margate??] [Though very tenuous, there may be a traditional analogous link of monastery of "Bangor" (in Arvon) "down the road from Chester" with Reculver not far from Richborough [city of the legion]?]

"a chapel which may have been on Knab Rock or nearby"? "neither the cave nor the church have been identified".

"a certain regulus (petty king)". [Brychan is called a regulus in Saints Lives.]

regulus may possibly link with Regulbium? [Evidence suggests that retreat of Brecheinawc/Gafran of Gwallawg/Taliesin matches our Reculver / Birchington & "Avalon" / "Baschurch" / 'levitating altar'.] Riculf/Raculf (HRB)?


The L.A. is in (the Wonders of Britain in) the Historia Britonum of Nennius which also has (# other wonders, and) the 9 battle sites of "Arthur".

We have shown very quality and quantity evidences that the 9 battle sites of "Arthur" and also the Wonders of Britain of HB of "Nennius" certainly match the 9 Saxon Shore sites in the south-east quarter of England/Britain. Nennius (& Gildas, Melkinus, Kentigern, Germanus, etc) reputed to have been at "Oxford" according to Asser, but the traditional "Oxford" / Rico/Ridoc/Richiden/Rhydychen / Bos(s)o / Caer-Vembyr may really be Reculver near Rutupi & Wantsum-Stour [Bassas "shallow", probably the swelling ford/shallows of the Wonders, and possibly Cerdicesford/Avene], and Germanus etc were surely more likely in the south-west (plus Kentigern may link with Kit's Coty &/or Kent?) (There is also an Oxwich bay in Gower.) [Could the body of Dover painted house even be Nennius?]

Orthodox would have a "largely-fictitious/-unsubstantial" Arthur &/or "unreliable" Nennius romping all over Britain (except for south-east quarter) from Lomond, to Lincoln ("Linnuis"), to Chester ("city of legion"), to Anglesey/Mon(a) or Isle of Man, to Cardigan, to Gwent, to Gower, to Caerleon, to Hwicce, to Severn, to Oxford (Asser), etc. They do not have the 9 battle sites and the Wonders all matching same sites (eg is 1 of Arthur's 9 battle sites in Gower?) (They claim that "there is no necessity that the should match", but we discovered stark evidence(s) that they do match.)

is "history" (ie "Historia (Britonum)")

we have found an amazing real historical match and at about the right date

orthodox have a possible physical/traditional match but it is not really very certain ("neither the cave nor the church have been identified", "...may have been....") Local traditions/legends/rumours are hardly reliable.

is in "(the island of) Britain" (i.e. "(Historia) Britonum")

Reculver/Margate is (in Kent) in (island of) Great Britain. (Evidences from "Welsh" sources also seemingly suggest that the name Britain was especially connected with the Downs and Weald?)

orthodox site is in Gower in s.w. Wales in (Great) Britain.

the usual/orthodox location candidate for the Levitating Altar is at Ystum-llwynarth/Llwyngarth/Llygraib "Llwynarth Bend [Bay?]" (~ Oystermouth bay, the Mumbles, Gower). (Loyngarth from llymarch "an oyster"?)

Richborough/Rutupiae and Reculver are famous for oysters found there. Black Rock near Reculver? (Cf Bass Rock?)





[Levitating altar might match the pieces of Arthur's [or Andrew's] real size cross preserved at Wedale/Vallis-Doloris 6 miles west of monastery of Meil-ros "bare [or yellow] + headland / promontory / moor(land)", in province of Lo[n]donesia]

Reculver Cross, in monastery-church at Reculver "great headland/promontory", # miles n.w. of Richborough/Rutupi [Camelot "yellow"], not far from London. Vale/valley might match Wantsum-Stour?



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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2016 at 06:49
From someone's post on the one other forum that we also posted similar thread/topic in it seems some people do not understand what our discovery is about. So another last attempt to explain, plus some background info links:

In the Historia Britonum of "Nennius" is mentioned 12 battles of Arthur which are actually only 9 battle sites because 4 of the battles (numbers 2-5) are in the same place).
These battles/sites are: 1 ostium fluminis Glein (mouth of river Glein), 2/2-5 river Dubglas ("black water"/"blue black"), region Linnuis ("district of pools"), 3/6 river Bassas, 4/7 silua Celidonis (cat coit Celidon), 5/8 castellum/fort(let) Guinnion ("white/fair, holy"), 6/9 urbs legionis (city of the legion) (gloss cairlion), 7/10 trat Tribruit, 8/11 Mt Agned / Breguoin/Bregion ("(white) hills"), 9/12 Mt Badon.

We discovered that 8 of these 9 sites match 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore forts of the Notita Dignitatum from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth, plus 1 in-between site (Celidon matching Weald / Kit's Coty & Coldrum). The names/meanings and natures/details/geographies match, and they all match in numerical order which can not be coincidence.
(The 9 sites are 1 Garianonum/Burgh/Caistor/Great Yarmouth, 2 Othona/Bradwell/Maldon/Blackwater, 4 Regulbium/Reculver (Baetasiroum), 3 Kits Coty/Coldrum/Weald, 6 Dubris/Dover, 5 Rutupiae/Richborough (legio 2 Augusta), 7 Lemanis/Stutfall/Lympne/Romney, 8 Anderida/Pevensey, 9 portus Adurni/Portsdown Hill/Portchester/Portsmouth.)

To partially demonstrate some matches:

9 "Arthur/Nennius" battle sites -- 9 actual SS sites (from ND):
1 ostium fluminis Glein -- 1 Garieni fluvii ostia
2 Dubglas "black water" -- 2 river Black water / river Eidumannia "element du black"
3 Bassas -- 4 Reculver (Basilicia, Baetasiorum from Baetasii, Bassa the priest, etc)
4 silua Celidonis -- 3 silva Caledonia of Caesar's invasion (in Florus etc)
4 cat coit Celidon -- 3 Kit's Coty (source says can mean "battle + wood") + Coldrum (both sites connected in tradition and by Pilgrims Way)
5 castellum/fort(let) Guinnion/*Alborum ("white/fair, holy") (St Mary) -- 6 Dubris/Dover (white/Albion) (St Mary in Castro).
6 urbs/city of the legion -- 5 Rutupi/Richborough (legio 2 Augusta, called orbs/civitas/city/metropolis)
7th HB site Trat Tribruit's meanings match 7th ND/SS sites geographies descriptions

We also discovered that the Wonders of Britain also in Historia Britonum of Nennius also match the same 9 sites, eg Cruc Mawr matches the "large cruciform platform" at Richborough, Amr's tomb (can't be measured) pretty surely matches Countless Stones (can't be counted), etc. This thus confirms that the sites match is right.

Furthermore the 9 battles & sites of Arthur in the Pa Gur also match the same 9 HB/Nennius sites and 9 ND/SS sites. (See table in first post.)

Our only main thesis is that the 2 sets of 9 sites definitely match in names/meanings, and natures/details/geographies, and numbers all in order. We can not fully prove that the battles were actually fought there then, though we have shown that there are so far some seeming possible evidences for battles being fought there then. The dispute is thus not that the battles were fought there then but that everyone refuses to acknowledge the stark evdiences matches between the 2 sets of 9 sites (plus other lists/sets/sources too including the 9 PaGur sites, and the Wonders of Britain).

For background on the 12 battles / 9 battle sites of Arthur/Nennius see:
http://gorddcymru.org/twilight/camelot/infopedia/a/arthurs_battles.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sites_and_places_associated_with_Arthurian_legend
http://people.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/tag/king-arthur/
'Once Again Arthur's battles' by Kenneth Jackson (on Jstor etc)
http://theelf29.esy.es/arthur.html
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101
Plus for many hitherto 9  battle sites of Arthur loaction theories of orthodox and others see our lists of these at:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1539

For background on 9 Notita Dignitatum Saxon Shore sites see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Shore
or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saxon_Shore
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notitia_Dignitatum

For how we discovered that the 9 battle sites of Arthur/Nennius and the 9 actual modern/historical SS/ND sites match see:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1600
Map of our 9 battle sites matches at:
http://2rbetterthan1.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/map-12battleska-9fortsss2.png
And our tables in this thread/topic.
(Another table of our 9 sites matches is here:
http://historum.com/attachments/medieval-byzantine-history/8330d1429050630-arthur-one-camelot-many-camelots-arth.jpg .)

For the Wonders of Britain see
http://www.wondersofbritain.org/
http://people.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/category/arthurnet/
http://historum.com/ancient-history/21513-finding-13-wonders-britain.html
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t276580/
http://users.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/LiberFMarvels.html
http://users.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/LiberFloridus.html
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=102

For the  9 Pa Gur battles/sites see
http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/bbc31.html
http://www.mythiccrossroads.com/PaGur.htm
http://historum.com/blogs/rob+banks/30903-pa-gur-battles.html
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1540

("Who was "(King) Arthur"" is not a main necessary part of our 9 battle sites discovery, but we posted some on who possibly was Arthur here
http://historum.com/blogs/gold+heart/31681-nennius-gildas-re-king-arthur-bits.html
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1599
http://historum.com/blogs/rob+banks/30905-who-king-arthur.html
http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=101&ChapterID=1585
Plus for on Arthur's grave/Avalon being at Reculver see the tables here on Bassas and on Levitating Altar, and see the 3rd "Bassas/Reculver" chapter in our 12 battles ebook thesis paper.)

Quote of the 9 battle sites of Arthur from 'Historia Britonum' of Nennius (which can be seen at http://www.gutenberg.org/files/37848/37848-h/37848-h.htm ) :

"Then it was, that the magnanimous Arthur, with all the kings and military force of Britain, fought against the Saxons. And though there were many more noble than himself, yet he was twelve times chosen their commander, and was as often conqueror. The first battle in which he was engaged, was at the mouth of the river Gleni.[314] The second, third, fourth, and fifth, were on another river, by the Britons called Duglas,[315] in the region Linuis. The sixth, on the river Bassas.[316] The seventh in the wood Celidon, which the Britons call Cat Coit Celidon.[317] The eighth was near Gurnion castle,[318] where Arthur bore the image of the Holy Virgin,[319] mother of God, upon his shoulders, and through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the holy Mary, put the Saxons to flight, and pursued them the whole day with great slaughter.[320] The ninth was at the City of Legion,[321] which is called Cair Lion. The tenth was on the[Pg 409] banks of the river Trat Treuroit.[322] The eleventh was on the mountain Breguoin, which we call Cat Bregion.[323] The twelfth was a most severe contest, when Arthur penetrated to the hill of Badon.[324] In this engagement, nine hundred and forty fell by his hand alone, no one but the Lord affording him assistance. In all these engagements the Britons were successful. For no strength can avail against the will of the Almighty.

The more the Saxons were vanquished, the more they sought for new supplies of Saxons from Germany; so that kings, commanders, and military bands were invited over from almost every province. And this practice they continued till the reign of Ida, who was the son of Eoppa, he, of the Saxon race, was the first king in Bernicia, and in Cair Ebrauc (York)."

- Section 50 or 56 of Historia Britonum of "Nennius".

(I may not have anymuch more time (or water) to post/reply anymore, and not sure how much longer my dialup will not be taken away from me.)

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2017 at 00:13
Latin, Irish and English combined-versions of the 12 battles [9 battle sites] of Arthur section in 'Historia Britonum' & 'Irish HB' & 'Liber Floridus'.

"Tunc Arthur pugnabat contra illos in illis diebus cum regibus Brittonum(,) sed ipse dux erat bellorum.

/ Tunc Arthur dux Pictorum interioris Britannia regens regna, fortis uiribus, miles acerrimus, uidens Angliam undique impugnari et bona terre diripi multosque captiuari ac redimi et ab hereditatibus expelli, cum Britonnum regibus feroci impetu Saxones aggreditur et in eos irruens pugnabat uiriliter, dux bellorum XIl eis existens ut Retro scriptum in est VIII ue folio.

Ar a uidi no cathaigid Artur & Breatain riu co calma, & do rad da cath deag doib, .i.

Then (it was, that the magnanimous) Arthur(,) fought against {them / the Saxons} {in those days / ,} with (all) the kings (and military force) of (the) Britain(s)(. And though there were many more noble than himself,) but/yet he (himself) was (twelve times chosen) the(ir) leader/commander {of battles / , and was as often conqueror}.

/ Then Arthur the leader of the "Picts", directing kingdoms inland in Britain, with strong men, this fiercest soldier, seeing England [Anglia] everywhere beaten in battle, good lands taken away, many enslaved and redeemed and expelled from their inheritance, with the kings of the Britons he came against the Saxons with a ferocious attack and rushing upon them fought manfully, the leader in 12 battles, the same [?] as is written above on the 8th leaf [of this manuscript]

/ Arthur, however, and the Britons fought bravely
against them, and gave them twelve battles, viz.,

[1st site:]
Primum bellum fuit in ostium/*aber fluminis quod dicitur Glein/Gleuy.

in ced cath in n-indbear Glein;

His/The first battle ((in which he was engaged,) was) {in the east at / at the mouth of} the river ([which is] called) Glein/Gleni/Gleuy ./;

[Some scholars think this connected with the river Gefrin/Glen at/in/nearby Adgefrin/Yeavering in Glendale near Millfield (Plain), where Paulinus baptised according to Bede in the 'EH'.]

[2nd site:]
Secundum (uero) et tertium/tercium et quartum et quintum super (aliud) flumen((,) quod vocatur/dicitur) Dubglas (et est in regione Linnius/Linnuis).

in tanaiste & in treas & in ceathramad & in cuicead cath for bru Dubglaisi;

His/The second {indeed and /,} (the) third ,/and (the) fourth(,) and (the) fifth ((battle(s)), (were)) on (the brink of) the/another river ({[which is] / , by the Britons} called) Du(b(h))glas [meaning "black water" or "blue black"] ({[and is] / ,} in the region/district (of) Linnius/Linuis/Inniis [meaning "district/inhabitants of pools/ponds/lakes"])./;

[Higden/Polychronicon adds that Dubglas is near Mersee.]
[See also Duglas in Geoff of Monmouth's 'HRB'.]
[There is also a Doglas in 'lai de Ywenec' which may be same or different.]

[3rd site:]
(Sextum bellum super flumen(,) quod vocatur Bassas. (Omitted in LF.))

(in seiseadh cath fhor bru Bassa;)

(The sixth {battle (was) / ,} by/on {the brink of the / the river (that/which is named/called)} Bassas/Lussas [people/person name Basse's, or meaning "shallow" or "ford" or "forehead" or "mound in the estuary or bed of a river''?]./;)


[4th site:]
Septimum (fuit bellum) in silua Celidonis, (id est Cat Coit Celidon).

ocus in seachtmadh cath a Caill Caillidoin .i. cait Coit Cleiduman;

The seventh (battle (was)) in the forest/wood (of) Celidon/Calydon/Callidon, ({that is(,) / which the Britons call} Ca(i)t Coit [meaning "battle wood"] Celidon./;)

[See also Geoffrey of Monmouth's HRB about connection of Celidon with London.]
[Irish say Guinnion was in Celidon wood.]
[Trystan & Iseult exile in Coed Celyddon.]
[A 'Celidoine' is associated with Galafort.]
[See also Caledon wood mentioned in connection with battle of Arthuret.]
[Compare the battle of Celli in the 'Pa Gur'.]
[Some scholars compare/connect this battle with battle of Trees/Goddeu/Achren.]


[5th site:]
Octauum (fuit bellum) in castello/castellum/*dunon Guynon/*Alborum, in quo (bello) Arthur portauit imaginem sanct(a)e Mari(a)e (perpetuae uirginis) super humeros/*(i)scuid [or *(i)scuit] suos/sues et pagani uersi sunt in fugam(.) In illo/illa die (et) c(a)edes magna fuit {super illos / de paganis} per uirtutem Domini Nostri Iesu Christi et (per uirtutem) sanct(a)e (Mariae) Virginis genitricis eius.

in t-ochtmhadh cath im lesc Guinidoin; is and sin ro imarcor Artur delb Muire for a gualaind, & ro teilgistar na Pagáin.

The eighth ((battle) was) in/near/at (the) Castle/fort(let)/fortress (of) Guin(ni)on/Gurnion/Guindoin/*Alborum [meaning "white, fair, holy" + ion/iog/guic "standard place name ending" or "people"/"fort"], (in) which/where (battle) Arthur carried/bore an/the image (of the cross of Christ, and) of {the holy virgin / St Mary(, the eternal/perpetual/ever virgin)} (, mother of God,) (up)on his shoulder(s) [or shield] (,) and the pagans/Saxons (were) turned/put in/to flight ./, {In/on that day there was great slaughter of them/pagans / and pursued them the whole day with great slaughter} (,) through the power of Our Lord Jesus Christ(,) and (through the power of) {the holy Mary / St Mary his / his sainted} (Virgin Mother).
(For Arthur proceeded to "Jerusalem", and there made a cross to the size of the Saviour's cross, and there it was consecrated, and for three successive days he fasted, watched, and prayed, before the Lord's cross, that the Lord would give him the victory, by this sign, over the heathen; which also took place, and he took with him the image of St. Mary, the fragments of which are still preserved in great veneration at Wedale, in English Wodale, in Latin Vallis-doloris. Wodale is a village in the province of Lodonesia, but now of the jurisdiction of the bishop of St. Andrew's, of Scotland, six miles on the west of that heretofore noble and eminent monastery of Meil-ros [meaning "yellow" / "bare headland/promontory/moor(land)" / "wood"].)

/ the eighth battle at Lesc Guinidon ; it was here Arthur carried the image of Mary on his shoulder, and drove out the Pagans ;

[Some orthodox academic scholars compare/correspond this battle of Guinnion with the battle of Badon in the 'Annales Cambriae' / "Welsh Annals":
"516 The bellum/battle of Badon(is), in which Arthur carried the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ for 3 days and 3 nights on his shoulders and the Britons were the victors".]
[Compare the battle of Guinnion against Saxons/pagans with the battle of mynydd Eidyn against cynbyn in 'Pa Gur'.
[Irish source say Guinnion was in Celidon wood.]
[Compare castellum Guinnion [& Dover] with "Guinevere" and the tower/castle in 'Modena Archivolt'.]
[Compare "the earth shall swallow up "Winchester"/Guintonhi" of the Prophecy of Merlin in Geoff's HRB.]

[6th site:]
Nonum bellum gestum est in urbe/urbs Legionis.

In nomadcath i cathraig ind Legoin;

The ninth (battle) (was) (fought/waged) in/at (the) City of (the) Legion(s)(, gloss: which (in British) is called Cair Lion)./;

[See also many other Arthurian/"Welsh" sources (DEB/Gildas, EH/Bede, 11 Consuls 'HRB'/Geoff, '24 kings & 33 cities', 'AC'/"WA", Hergest, Ywenec, Beroul) for more details about the Arthurian 'city of (the) Legion(s)' / "Caerleon", such as the Round Table being there, its archbishop Dubricius, St Julius & Alban, etc.]
[See also the City of Lions/Lyonesse.]


[7th site:]
Decimum (gessit bellum) in littore fluminis(,) quod uocatur(e) Tribruit/Tribuith.

in dechmead in Robruid;

The tenth {(battle (he fought)) / (was)} at/on (the bank(s)/shore of the river {[which] called / Trat}) Tribruit/Treuroit/Tribuith/Ribroit/Arderit [meaning "..."]./;

[The 'Pa Gur' also gives a few more details about the battle (site) of Tribruit.]


[8th site:]
(Vndecimum (factum est bellum) in monte((,) qui dicitur) {Agned / breguoin, id est cat bregion}.)

(Omitted in Irish HB.)

(The eleventh ((battle) was (waged/fought)) on (the) mount(ain) {([which is] called) Agned / Breguoin [meaning "(white) hills"], which we call CatBregion / Agned Cathregonion.})

[Geoff of Monmouth's 'HRB' from some lost British source adds:
"He also built the city of Alclud [meaning/from ail "(a) rock", or "a height/cliff", or "white", or "a house site", + "river Clyde", or "Caledon", thought to be Dumbarton/Dunbrettan "fort of the Britons/Britain"] towards Albani [meaning "white" or "hill/height"], and the town of mount Agned [supposedly Edinburgh], called at this time 'castellum puellarum' "the Castle of Maidens", or 'montem dolorosum' "the Mountain of Sorrow"."
The author of the '24 kings & 33 cities' says of this same story part:
"He built another city, that which is denominated Caer Alclyd, and the castle which is called Castell y Morwynion [gwyn "white"], on Mynydd/Mount y Tristydd.... ... and he completed the building of the city begun by his father, which was then called Caer Alclyd, and afterwards Castell y Morwynion...."]
[Compare the 8th battle of the uplands of Ystawinguin in the 'Pa Gur'.]

[9th site:]
Duodecimum (fuit bellum) in monte Badonis, in quo (bello) corruerunt (in uno die) nongenti sexaginta uiri de uno impetu Arturi (;) {et nemo prostrauit eos nisi ipse solus / auxiliante Domino Iesu Christo},/.

a do deag is ann ro marbhadh la láimh Artuir xl. ar ocht chetaib i n-aen lo,

The twelfth (battle was / was a most severe contest,) {(when Arthur penetrated to) / on} (the) mount/hill (of) Badon ,/. in which/this battle/engagement(,) 960/940/470 (men) fell {in a single attack by Arthur / by his hand alone}, {(and) no-one brought them low except he / no one but the Lord affording him assistance / with the help of the Lord Jesus Christ.}

/ in the twelfth battle there were slain, by the hand of Arthur, 840 men in one day,

[See also Badon in the Wonders of Britain in the same source ("Nennius").]
[See also Badon/"Bath" in alot of other sources (AC/WA, Hergest, HRB, DEB/Gildas, EH/Bede, Tysilio, Taliesin, Rhonabwy, Prophecy of Merlin, 11 Consuls) for more details about the battle site/location (but remember that the Badon of some other sources maybe matches 5th site Guinnion here not 9th site Badon here).]

Et in omnibus bellis uictor erat/extitit. et ipsi, dum in omnibus bellis prosternebantur, auxilium a germania petebant et augebantur multipliciter sine intermissione et reges a germania deducebant, ut regnarent super illos in brittannia usque ad tempus quo ida regnauit, qui fuit eobba filius. ipse fuit primus rex in beornica.

& ba leis coscur intib seo uile. No chuindgidís imorro Saxain na fortacht doib a Germania & rigi foro, co h-Ida is eiside ced rig ro gab uadaib i-fos indbir Oníc .i. fri Umbria, atuaid.

[And] in all his/these battles/engagements {he / the Britons} proved/were victorious/successful. For no strength can avail against the will of the Almighty.
The more the Saxons were vanquished, the more they sought for new supplies of Saxons from Germany; so that kings, commanders, and military bands were invited over from almost every province. And this practice they continued till the reign of Ida, who was the son of Eoppa, he, of the Saxon race, was the first king in Bernicia, and in Cair Ebrauc (York).

/ and he was victorious in all these battles. And the Saxons
sought assistance from Germany, and it was from thence they brought
their kings until the time of Ida, who was the first king that ruled
over them at this side of Inbher Onic, that is, to the north of Umbria
[Humber]."


- 12 battles of Arthur, Section 50/56 of 'Historia Britonum' (which also includes the Wonders of Britain) of "Nennius".
/ - V.R.
/ - chapter 52/57 of 'Liber Floridus' of Lambert of St Omer.

- 'Leabhar Breathnach' / "Irish HB".

[Also see the "Wonders of Britain" of/in/from the same 3 source(s) (section 73 of 'Historia Britonum' of "Nennius", page # of Irish 'HB', chapter 52 of 'LF' of St Omer).]
[See also Arthurs battle sites in the 'HRB' of Geoff of Mon.]
[Compare the 9 battles sites of the 'Pa Gur'.]

If i have the time etc then I am going to pick each one of these at a time (not in numeric order but easiest/best ones first) and try one last time to show the stark matches between each and all [the fact that not just 1 but all 9 all match all in numeric/geographic order is important evidence in itself] of these 9 battle sites with each and all of our 9 Saxon Shore sites from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2017 at 06:41
The 12 battles 9 battle sites of Arthur of Nennius/HB  definitely match the 9 Saxon Shore sites (of the ND) from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth), as we have already shown with plenty of stark matches evidences in the last few years (though there are still various extra things to resolve/clear-up/prove).
However certain people on other forums have kept attacking us falsely making our thesis to be wrong/dumb/bad. Because of these attacks we yet again are forced to try re-write better our evidences for each of the 9 sites.

(5th) Guinnion/[Badon] = (6th) Dover/Dubris (= (6th) Eidyn).

The first of the 9 battle sites of "Arthur" (of "Nennius") that we attempt to re-present better (less "sloppy") for the (umpteenth) last time is Guinnion (5th battle site & 8th battle of the HB), which we discovered matches Dover/Dubris (6th site of the SS/ND) [both of which also match Eidyn (6th battle/site of the PG)].

Quote from Nennius/HB:

" Then (it was, that the magnanimous) Arthur(,) fought against {them / the Saxons} {in those days / ,} with (all) the kings (and military force) of (the) Britain(s)(. And though there were many more noble than himself,) but/yet he (himself) was (twelve times chosen) the(ir) leader/commander {of battles / , and was as often conqueror}.

....

[5th site:]
Octauum (fuit bellum) in castello/castellum/*dunon Guynon/*Alborum, in quo (bello) Arthur portauit imaginem sanct(a)e Mari(a)e (perpetuae uirginis) super humeros/*(i)scuid [or *(i)scuit] suos/sues et pagani uersi sunt in fugam(.) In illo/illa die (et) c(a)edes magna fuit {super illos / de paganis} per uirtutem Domini Nostri Iesu Christi et (per uirtutem) sanct(a)e (Mariae) Virginis genitricis eius.

in t-ochtmhadh cath im lesc Guinidoin; is and sin ro imarcor Artur delb Muire for a gualaind, & ro teilgistar na Pagáin.

The eighth ((battle) was) in/near/at (the) Castle/fort(let)/fortress (of) Guin(ni)on/Gurnion/Guindoin/*Alborum [meaning "white, fair, holy" + ion/iog/guic "standard place name ending" or "people"/"fort"], (in) which/where (battle) Arthur carried/bore an/the image (of the cross of Christ, and) of {the holy virgin / St Mary(, the eternal/perpetual/ever virgin)} (, mother of God,) (up)on his shoulder(s) [or shield] (,) and the pagans/Saxons (were) turned/put in/to flight ./, {In/on that day there was great slaughter of them/pagans / and pursued them the whole day with great slaughter} (,) through the power of Our Lord Jesus Christ(,) and (through the power of) {the holy Mary / St Mary his / his sainted} (Virgin Mother).
(For Arthur proceeded to "Jerusalem", and there made a cross to the size of the Saviour's cross, and there it was consecrated, and for three successive days he fasted, watched, and prayed, before the Lord's cross, that the Lord would give him the victory, by this sign, over the heathen; which also took place, and he took with him the image of St. Mary, the fragments of which are still preserved in great veneration at Wedale, in English Wodale, in Latin Vallis-doloris. Wodale is a village in the province of Lodonesia, but now of the jurisdiction of the bishop of St. Andrew's, of Scotland, six miles on the west of that heretofore noble and eminent monastery of Meil-ros [meaning "yellow" / "bare headland/promontory/moor(land)" / "wood"].)

/ the eighth battle at Lesc Guinidon ; it was here Arthur carried the image of Mary on his shoulder, and drove out the Pagans ;

[Some orthodox academic scholars compare/correspond this battle of Guinnion with the battle of Badon in the 'Annales Cambriae' / "Welsh Annals":
"516 The bellum/battle of Badon(is), in which Arthur carried the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ for 3 days and 3 nights on his shoulders and the Britons were the victors".]
[Compare the battle of Guinnion against Saxons/pagans with the battle of mynydd Eidyn against cynbyn in 'Pa Gur'.
[Irish source say Guinnion was in Celidon wood.]
[Compare castellum Guinnion [& Dover] with "Guinevere" and the tower/castle in 'Modena Archivolt'.]
[Compare "the earth shall swallow up "Winchester"/Guintonhi" of the Prophecy of Merlin in Geoff's HRB.]
[Compare fort Guinnion [& Dover] with Galafort.]
[Compare "the great victory of Arthur over the Saxons on St David's (birth)day [1st March] 540 or 640" (~ "field of Leeks").]

.... 

[And] in all his/these battles/engagements {he / the Britons} proved/were victorious/successful. For no strength can avail against the will of the Almighty.
The more the Saxons were vanquished, the more they sought for new supplies of Saxons from Germany; so that kings, commanders, and military bands were invited over from almost every province. And this practice they continued till the reign of Ida, who was the son of Eoppa, he, of the Saxon race, was the first king in Bernicia, and in Cair Ebrauc (York). "

From the 12 battles quote we glean 20 identification details of Guinnion:

i. the number/order ("5th" site of "9" sites)
ii. a "battle/siege" (Arthur victory, Saxons flight/pursued/great slaughter)
iii. the "in/near/at"
iv. the "castellum/fort(let)"
v(a). the name "Guinnion/*Alborum"
v(b). the meaning "white"
vi. fought by "(dux) Arthur"/"(kings of the) Britons" (or "Picts")
vii. the "cross/sign"
viii. the "(Lord Jesus) Christ"/"God"/"Saviour"
ix. the (image of) "holy Virgin / holy Mary / St Mary / perpetual virgin / mother (of God/Arthur)"
x. the (carried/bore (up)on) "shoulder(s)/shield"
xi. fought against the "Saxons/pagans/heathen" ("from Germany" & "every province").
xii. the "drove out" / "turned in flight" (/ "pursued"?)
xiii. the date (before "Ida" [c 547]) & ("3 days" &) "day".
(xiv. the "Jerusalem")
(xv. the province of "Lodonesia")
xvi. is written in the 'HB' of "Nennius" (which also has the Wonders of Britain in it).
xvii. is "history" ('Historia').
xviii. is in "(the island of) Britain" (& "England/Anglia").
ixx. the "in Celidon wood".
(xx. the correspondence of battle of fort Guinnion & battle of "Mt Badon".)

(And some people claim that there is "scanty" details for the 9 battle sites!)

Dover is the only site that only-best matches most-all of these 20 details.
If we are able re time and situation and health, then we will next [in the next post/posts] give a more detailed written explanation about each of these 20 details matches with Dover [though we may not necessarily do them in numeric order].

The only 1/2/3/4 that we can't yet absolutely prove (but can only give some seeming evidences so far) is/are the archaeological evidence in the site ground and county of (the Britons there then &) the Battle actually fought  there then (& at what definite Date) (in History).

It is patently ridiculous for certain harsh critics (to reject all the rest of our stark quality and quantity matches evidences and) to expect me in my distant location (NZ) & disadvantaged social-economic situation (& condition) to also prove the final remaining archaelogical evidence of battle fought there then.

I repeat that i really do not have the time and health and situation and water and location etc to re-do all this 9 battle sites yet again (for umpteenth time). I have other things that i seriously need & want to do. I can not do both in this situation. A certain harsh critic has the cheek to call me "sloppy" etc while they poison my water etc. I have already given plenty enough quality and quanitity matches evidences for the 9 sites, and done plenty enough hard work (to heart breaking point) on this (and other works) in last 3 years in a bad situation (and all for nothing but just either nothing or negative). A person can not do excess hard work with most-all just negatives/pushing/tough, and not any-much positives/loves/conditions/pay. I am not "sloppy", i just have a too bad (past &) present situation & conditions to be able to present a better thesis/paper/article/book (though it is not as if we haven't already given plenty enough quality and quantity sites details matches evidences).
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2017 at 00:44
Sorry but I can't re-do (yet again) anymore or any better than this in my socio-economic situation. I have already darn given plenty enough quality & quantity evidences. Aside from the bad situation (including poison/fluoridated tap water), and that i have other things that i need/want to do, the computer radiation seems to be causing major humming in my head and harming my mental ability/health too. The enemy is just trying to stop me doing other things, and trying to destroy me, and what is point of succeeding if it kills me? Mis-call it "sloppy" if you want but it is not my fault, it is impossible in this social situation.
I quit. This is ridiculous being meanly forced to have to (clearly) explain every tiny little jot and tiddle as if to total morons, or else if i can't then the establishment refuse to credit me for what connections and hard work i have done. They are doing it lyingly on purpose. No doubt they will claim "oh well some people succeed and some don't". But i say they purposely heavily stamp some of us down socially etc.

I am sorry for some repetition between some sections in the chapter, it can't be helped. I am not anymore tolerating mean nasty peoples attacks about things like "repetition" etc. All books, papers, etc i have seen have repetitions in them (eg the fresno notes to the Geste of RH). The mean cruel critics call us "sloppy", and lyingly claim that they "can't intuit what [we] are try to show", etc, and then when we do all their forced slavery excessive hard work they criticise us for "repetition" etc.

I am sorry but i simply do not have the time and situation to spell out to totally ignorant. (I have already spent about 3 years.)

Guinnion is the 5th battlesite of 9, and 8th battle of 12 battles of "(King) Arthur" in the Historia Britonum of "Nennius".
Dover is a place in Kent in s.w. England.
Dubris is Saxon Shore fort of the Notita Dignitatum, and matches Dover.
Mt Eidyn / Eidyn 2 is the 6th battle/site of Arthur in the Pa Gur.
(Arddunion is battle of Gwallawg in Taliesin's words.)

These 4 or 5 places all match.
(Our discovery was that the 12 battles  (9 battle sites) of Arthur of the HB of Nennius match 9 Saxon Shore sites from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth.)

I have damn said it clearly enough damn times and yet certain people claim they don't know what i mean.

This map that i already posted link to clearly shows what i mean. And yet they say they don't know what i mean.
http://2rbetterthan1.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/map-12battleska-9fortsss2.png

The table in the very first post shows what i mean.

I am a researcher etc, not a popular writer etc. I don't see the establishment offering me any help or offering me some other way to present (eg spoken).

The enemy is just slaving me forcing me to write it all in perfect English or else they lyingly refuse to know and admit what our discovery is. People are totally damn lazy and expect me to do all the work while they don't have to make any effort at all; i am only abit lazy and am alot unable because disadvantaged situation.

Now the explanation of 20 identification details of the battle site of Guinnion and their matches with Dover.

i. the number/order ("5th" site of "9" sites).

The HB has a set of 9 battle sites of Arthur (which match 9 of 10 actual sites from Brancaster to Portsmouth).
The ND has a set of 9 Saxon Shore forts (which match 9 of 10 actual sites from Yarmouth to Portsmouth).
Each and all of "only" 8 of the 9 battle sites of Arthur/Nennius/HB (& actual sites) match each and all of "only" 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore sites of the ND (and actual sites) all in numerical & geographical order (which can not be coincidence) from Yarmouth to Portsmouth.

The ND(-&-actual) has "extra" 1st fort that HB(-&-actual) doesn't; and the ND(-&-actual) doesn't have 4th site of HB(-&-actual). The HB(-&-actual) has "extra" 4th site that ND(-&-actual) doesn't, and the HB(-&-actual) doesn't have 1st fort of ND(-&-actual).

8 matching HB & SS/ND sites, plus the "extra" 1st SS/ND fort, plus the "extra" 4th HB site, makes 10 actual SS sites from Brancaster to Portsmouth.

5th HB site Guinnion matches 6th SS/ND site Dover/Dubris (and both match 6th PG site Eidyn).
The minor cross-switch match of 5th & 6th sites between HB & SS/ND is confirmed in other sources. (HB is in battles order, SS/ND is in sites order. Perhaps "Arthur" didn't fight them all in order lest the Saxons knew which site was next? This may be one reason why was a great victory? Plus, the 5th & 6th SS sites are not far from each other in same Kent region.)

Guinnion 5th/8th of 9/12 battle/sites (HB),
Dover/Dubris 6th of 9 forts (SS/ND),
Eidyn 6th of 9 battle(site)s (PG),
Cursalen/Kaicester 6th of 9/11 consuls (HRB),
Arddunion [4th/6th] of [9/11],
Glasgwin 6th/7th of 12 monasteries,
Gwrdnei 5th of 7,
clydno Eidyn 5th of 13  treasures,
DuoRig Habren 5th of "13/14" wonders?

All other locations theories do not have a match of the numbers/order, they only match the 9 HB sites with artificial associations of 9 unnumbered sites, not with an attested list/group of 9 numbered sites like ours.

5th battle site Guinnion [Dover/Dubris] is near 6th battle site city of the Legion [Richborough/Rutupi]; Dover/Dubris [Guinnion] is near Richborough/Rutupi [city of the legion]; "Dubricius of Legions" in HRB implies that Legions is near Dubris/Dover.

The 12 battles are 9 battle sites since battles 2-5 were in same 1 site, and "Nennius" lists all 9 in order. Since the first 3 are all rivers, and 2 of the middle 3 are settlements, and the last 2 of the last 3 are mountains/hills, the 9 (3x3) battle sites is considered by some to have possibly been 3 sets of 3 rivers, 3 settlements and 3 hills. [Sites 3 and 4 are switched in some lists.] The middle 3 battle sites #s 4-6 (Celidon or Bassas, Guinnion, Legions) as all settlements matches our 3 sites in Kent (Aylesford or Reculver, Richborough/Rutupi, Dover/Dubris). Compare the "3 renowned cities" of another source?

ii. a "battle/siege" (Arthur victory, Saxons flight/pursued/great slaughter)

We can't yet absolutely prove archaeologically in the site ground (or in non-"unreliable" records) that the battle was actually fought there then, we can only give some seeming possible evidences so far found. Though the evidence is overwhelming that the 9 battlesites of Arthur of the HB of Nennius match the 9 Saxon Shore forts in names/meanings & natures/details/geographies & numbers/order.

Archaeological evidence that battle (of Guinnion) fought there & then may include:
"late Saxon cemetary around St Mary de Castro"?
The fort, and possible physical traces of battle/s there (eg the lighthouse looks possibly damaged?) (The only building standing now is lighthouse.)

Strategic evidence that battle (of Guinnion) fought there & then may include:
"[those who control the SE have the main power/hold in Britain]"?
There are roads linking our sites. "another Roman road between Woodnes-borough and Dover." Canterbury is at intersection of roads to 3/4/5 of our battle sites.

Records evidence that battle (of Guinnion) fought there & then may include:
The 12 battles / 9 battle sites of the HB definitely match the 9 Saxon Shore sites (in names/meanings, natures/geographies/details and numbers/order), with the 5th battle site of Guinnion certainly matching Dover/Dubris.
Collingwood said Nennius' words implied that "Arthur was fighting Saxons & specifically Kentishmen".
The battle of Badon of sources other than the HB (like the Badon of the AC which some compare with Guinnion of the HB) seemingly may match Braddon at Dover.
The battlesite of Eidyn 2 of the Pa Gur also seems to match Dover.
'St Martin le Grand' at Dover (&/or St Martin's at Canterbury) may possibly suggest battle [war god Mars], & "great slaughter"/"great victory"?

The eclipse (on the 16th of Feb, the 14th day) before the kalends Martii (the 1st of March) 538 in the ASC & Ethelwerd may possibly be connected with our 5th/8th battle of the Cross in Guinnion at Dover (St Martin le Grand) (Leon Mintz's paper gave tentative evidence of possible connection of Martin and Ares/Mars and Arthur/Merlin), and the eclipse of kalends iulius 540 of the ASC & Ethelwerd may possibly be connected with our 6th/9th battle of city of the legion (St Julius) at Rutupi/Richborough (near landing place of Julius Caesar). One/both of the 538 &/or 540 events may match the traditional "great victory of Arthur over the Saxons on St David's (birth)day (1st March) 540 or 640", which must be either Guinnion of HB or Badon of AC.

Egonesham/Ignesham 571 (ASC) may be a later re/taking by Saxons of Guinnion/Dover. The 571 sites were hitherto considered to be in Bedford/Buckingham, but some doubt this. Three of the 571 sites match 3 of the battle sites of Arthur of HB (Guinnion [Dover], Legions [Rutupi/Richborough], Bassas [Reculver]), and from this and from other ASC entries it seems possible that these sites might be our battlesites in Kent (or else the 571 sites may be analogous namesakes).

Records or/and archaeology:
"510-555 emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent".
"British strategy seems to have been to allow Saxon landings and to then contain them, there."
"488-547 only landings of Saxons on the coast". (Another source says Saxons/battles "were largely limited to the coast", though at abit earlier date.)


iii. the "in/near/at"

The HB says the battle of Guinnion (of Arthur) was fought "in/near/at" the fort(let) (of) Guinnion.
It does look like the battle might have been fought near/by/around/in the Dover lighthouse? Or, the battle might have been fought within Drop Redoubt on Dover Western Heights, on the highest point of the hill (see detail xx on Guinnion correspondence with Badon).

iv. the "castellum/*dunon/lesc / fort(let)" (of) Guinnion.

Arthur's 8th battle of 12 (but 5th battle site of 9) was fought in/near/at the "castellum/*dunon/lesc / fort(let)" (of) Gunnion.

The word castello/castellum might connect with 'St Mary in Castro/Castle' church (which is beside the Dover lighthouse/pharos), though this depends on whether the Castro could be refering to an eariler castle and not just the later medieval castle.

The castellum/fortlet is probably the Dover lighthouse/pharos which is prominent in photos, and which seems to be the tower/castle in the Modena Archivolt. (The HB implies that the fort itself was white? The lighthouse looks white-ish in photograph?) Perhaps compare the rook/castle in chess?

[Castellum may mean "a castle of/or a fortified town"?] Scathing critics had attacked us smartly pointing-out that castellum means fortlet not (a massive) fort. (I say they are at fault for always not correctly translating in English.) Though other Arthurian/Welsh sources with synonymous or analogous places (/) names also have word (translated in English as) "fort" too:
- fort Guinnion.
- St Guinefort.
- The fortress on a lofty "Saxon Rock" in the region Arestel nearby the narrows of Godalente.
- Galafort.
[- some say siege/obsessio implies a fort.]
- Arddunoin "fortress height".
- din Eidyn/"Edin-burgh" [~ Mt Eidyn].
- Lofty wood-clad rock dinas Emrys / Vast insulated rock dinas Emris?
- Dum-barton/Dunbrettan "fort of the Britons/Britain".
- 'Caer Baris'/"Dorchester" "by the sea"?
- "Win-chester"/Kaer-guen/Guintonhi.
- Cursalen of Kai-cester (6th).
- "Castle of Windsor" (Yseut).
- "Chastel de Snowdon(ie)/Isneldone ["snow hill"]" (RT, Yseut).
- Castell y Morwynion.
- Castle Dore?
- castle Ewen?
- Grail Castle?
- "Guinevere" & castle/tower in Modena Archivolt.
- Tower of Hercules (Galicia)?
- Y-Bryn-gwyn / Gwyn-fryn "White Tower/Hill".

(Castle of Maidens appears to be Anderida/Pevensey / Agned/Bregion, not Dover/Dubris / Guinnion.)

The "fort(let)" must be one of the structures/buidlings at Dover/Dubris (a list of which includes: the 2 lighthouses/pharos, the 2 SS (& CB) forts, the Dover Painted House, the St Martin le Grand church, St Mary in Castro/Castle church, the Harold's Earthwork).

v(a). the name "Guinnion/*Alborum".

The 5th battle site of Arthur is named "Guinnion".

Jackson proposed that Guinnion = *Alborum, and this matches Dover whose white cliffs considered to have given name Albion for Britain.

We have definite stark match for the meaning of this name, but can't totally prove that Dover was actually called "Guinnion" in other historical records, but there are a number of possible evidences that Dover was called Guinnion ("white") :
- 'Guindoin' of some HB/Nennius versions might combine both guin & dover?
- Y-Bryn-gwyn / Gwyn-fryn "White Hill/Tower" supposedly in London but "facing France" (Bran story)?
- "the earth shall swallow up "Winchester"/Guintonhi/Kaerguen" of the Prophecy of Merlin fits Dover (cliffs/heights/downs).
- "to Doguuinus/Docguinnus he gave Llanddyfrwyr" (Sts Lives)?
- Gawain died/buried/skull at Dover in some sources?
- Guiderius/Gwyryd and Genuissa/Gwenwisa  daughter of Julius Caesar or Claudius (who landed near Dover/Deal/Richborough)?
- Windover?
- Egonesham/Ignesham/Eynsham of the ASC 571 entry might be Dover. The 571 sites have been supposed to be in Bedford/Buckinghamshire, but some doubt this. 3 of the 571 entry sites seem to match 3 of our battle sites of Arthur/Nennius (Guinnion, Legions, Bassas) [later Saxon re/taking or else analogous namesakes], and from this and from other ASC entries it seems like these could match our 3 sites in Kent (Dover, Richborough, Reculver) or else they could be analogous namesakes.
[- Euan/Eafe (Kentish, 'Pa Halgan')?]
- "Guinevere" & castle/tower in Modena Archivolt (in which the castle/tower looks alot like Dover lighthouse).
- Guendoloena/Gwenddolau might contain/combine both names Guinnion & Dover?
- Wihtgarasburh/"Carisbrooke" (ASC)?
- caer Guidn, land's end, is analogous to Dover [Guinnion]?

For other claimed candidates:
Jackson said Guinnion can't be Binchester/Vinovia lingusitically.

v(b). the meaning "white".

The name (fort) Guinnion/Gurnion/Guindoin/*Alborum may mean "white/bright fort", and/or is considered to be from guin(n)/gwyn(n)/gwen/finn "white, fair, blond, bright, brilliant, blessed(ness), holy", or vind-o "clear/white" (though Jackson says can't be nn/nd interchange), or venta "place"/"a plain", or bin/*vino- "wine/vine", +, ion/iog/guic "standard place name ending", or *vindiones "(the) white people"?

Dover is famously well-known for its White Cliffs which some think gave the name of Britain 'Albion'. (Dover is in the North Downs chalk hills.)

The HB implies that the actual fort(let) was white? Dover lighthouse/pharos looks white-ish? ("White" could also/alternatively link with word light-house?)

Compare these from Dover fort archaeology: “The south wall … built of … chalk blocks set in a hard white mortar….” & “… part of a chalk-built barrack block of the Classis Britannica Fort was found…”

This "white" is prominent throughout Arthurian/Welsh tradition and thus must refer to a most-prominent white-associated place/region like Dover/Downs.
Eg: Guinnion/*Alborum "white"; Breguoin "(white) hills"; Ty Gwyn "white house" or "a strand"; Aeneas Yswwydwyn "White Shield"; St Alban('s); Albanact; Albani (HRB); Albion; 'Snowdon/Isneldone' "snow hill"; Hwiterne "white house"? Wihtgarasburh? "white town / town of white stone" / Wigracester/"Chester" 584? Picts?

"White people" could possibly link with that it is said that Albion "white" might refer to the original ancient Britons/Celts rather than white cliffs? [Compare name 'Picts'...?]

Regarding the "holy" meaning, there is some possible evidences that Dover was a holy site. It might connect with the glass vessel at Dover, which might be connected with the holy grail and with Mary/Gwenwisa/Igraine/Guinevere/Yseut?

vi. fought by "(dux) Arthur"/"(kings of the) Britons" (or "Picts").

We can't necessarily yet absolutely prove that "Arthur" and/or the Britons were there then (as opposed to hitherto "the south-east quarter was Anglo-Saxon" opinion of orthodox academics). However some scholars in recent times are disputing this (eg Ken Dark), and recent sources admit that the Saxons/Britons situation/sceanrio is far from certain. We can only give some evidences collated so far from old and new sources.

Possible evidences for "Arthur" and/or the Britons being in our Dover area of Kent then includes:
"Arthur" fought the (West) Saxons who were mainly in the south-east quarter. (He is said to have fought Cerdic & Colgrin & Baldulph.)
Kent & Canterbury are Celtic/British/Welsh names.
Little or no Saxon graves Canterbury.
Medway was border/boundary between Britons & Saxons not long before.
The Weald may have been like refuge for Britons.
South-East places mentioned in traditional Arthurian sources include Dover, Chislehurst, [Riculf?], Rutupi (where some say Gawain died), Canterbury?, London?, Winchelsea.
Arthurian/Welsh sources mention names similar to Dover/Dubris/Dour &/or Dorobernia (Canterbury) &/or Durobrivae (Rochester).
(E.g.: castle Dore? Earl (of) Doorn? Dubricus of aber-Gavenny? Dubricius? Dyfrig? Dubriactus? "Dorchester"? DuoRig Habren? Darian Las? Llanddyfrwyr? "Dunbar" (fort)? Doglas? Dobar?)
"Wurdesten speaks of the Britons leaving their ancestral land when the Saxons occupied it"?
Some suggest 2 groups of settlers [in Kent]: 1st Anglo-Saxon, 2nd Franks "who broke the dynasty of Kentish kings ... of which we hear no more after 512"?]
["Arthur" could possibly be the pre-Augustine Christian "Ethelbert" of ASC?]

It is possible that the medieval skeleton found in Dover Painted House might be "Arthur" or Nennius? "Mt Etna" is a reputed burial place of Arthur (and "Sicily" is a claimed Avalon candidate), and we show in this chapter that Mt Eidyn is Guinnion/Dover. (Etna is near strait of Messina which is analogous to straits of Dover.) (Our findings from various evidences is that "Arthur" was laid to rest at site of the Reculver Cross, but he may have later been shifted to somewhere like Dover or Glastonbury.)

(The "Picts" of the later Liber Floridus version of St Omer is too long to discuss here. Sufice to say that either (1) we are wrong, or (2) St Omer is Wrong, or (3) the name "Picts" doesn't refer to the assumed Picts of north Scotland. We are certainly not wrong that the 9 battle sites of Arthur match the 9 Saxon Shore sites. St Omer could certainly be wrong. (Note: compare 'dux bellorum' (HB), 'dux Pictorum' (LF), 'dux britanniarum' (ND?).) There is certaily evidences suggesting that "Picts" (and "Caledonian") can refer to other Britons. ....)

vii. the "cross/sign"

Arthur bore Cross &/or Mary at the battle of Guinnion. Candidate matches with Dover:
"relics from Dover in the same collection, including a superb circular brooch set with garnets and pearls in a cruciform design"?
"The Latin cross occurs further on a jewelled brooch, replacing the T-shaped settings sometimes found in Kent ; but the cross may here be purely ornamental."
The Celtic Cross on St Mary church at Dover? [Compare "druid circle & Xtian cross = Celtic cross"?]
A traditional Welsh Arthurian source mentions in same entry the Cross/Crucifiction and Gwenwisa daughter of Julius Caesar or Claudius (who landed near Dover/Deal/Richborough).
Cross of fort Guinnon matches sign of the cross (on door) at Galafort, and Galafort has matches with Dover.
Arthur's Cross ~ the Cross of Calvary ~ 'Galvarium' on Modena Archivolt (which seemingly shows Dover lighthouse or castro, with the name "Guinevere")?

(The cross that "Arthur" had at Guinnion and supposed to be at "Wedale" may match the Reculver Cross (not that far from Dover, in the same county of Kent).)

[Arthur's Cross of Guinnion might connect with Cross of Constantine, and with St Andrew's Cross of Athelstaneford 836, which might possibly connect with eclipse of calends of Martii 538 in ASC. (The calends of Martii 358 and calends of Julius 540 entries of the ASC may be connected with our Guinnion/Dover and 'Legions'/Rutupi/Richborough, and with "the great victory of Arthur over Saxons on St David's day 540 (or 640)".)]

viii. the "(Lord Jesus) Christ"/"God"/"Saviour"

Arthur's "Lord Jesus Christ" in the battle of Guinnion (of the HB of Nennius) may possibly be conflated with  Julius Caesar (who landed near Dover/Deal).
(Perhaps compare Gwenwisa/Genuissa daughter of Julius Caesar or of Claudius?)
Kent is linked with Christ and St Mary in 694 in chronicles.

ix. the (image of) "holy Virgin / holy Mary / St Mary / perpetual virgin / mother (of God/Arthur)" [Mari Lwyd].

Arthur bore image of Cross &/or Mary at Guinnion. This has definite match(es) with Dover:

'St Mary in Castro' church at Dover (which sources say may date as early as 600 ad).
"Eternal virgin" = ever white Dover.
(Gwyn means both/either "white" &/or "holy".)
Kent is linked with Christ and St Mary in 694 in chronicles.
Mary of Guinnion (HB) ~ Marsia/Martia & 'Caer Baris'/"Dorchester" "by the sea" (24 Kings & 33 Cities) ~ Dover?
'St Mary on the Rock' of Fife is analogous to Dover?
Photo and name of 'Santa Maria de Bretona' church & tower in Galicia looks similar to the lighthouse & St Mary in Castro church of Dover, while its name recalls Mary of Guinnion (of HB), and Artus de Bretania (of Modena Archivolt). (S.M. de Bretona was a Celtic bishopric from ca 569 not long after our approximate date for battle of Guinnion/Badon.)
There is a glass vessel at Dover which may possibly connect with the (Holy) Grail which in turn has been connected with Mary.
Dover's name might link with Dwy "Goddess" which could link with Mary?
The Modena Archivolt shows a tower/castle which looks alot like Dover lighthouse (or castro), and has the name "Guinevere" [Guanhumara] which may match (Mary [Mara] of) castellum Guinnion.
Mary of Guinnion could be connected with Gwenwisa/Genuissa daughter of Julius Caesar or Claudius (who landed near Dover/Deal/Richborough) [though may not because Mary is mother and Gwenwisa is daughter]?
Yseut of "castle of Windsor" & Yseut of "castle of Snowdon" may match Mary of castellum Guinnion, and "Snowdon" well matches Dover.
[Mary might possibly also link with Euan/Eafe of Kentish ('Pa Halgan')?]
Also possibly compare: "Winchester, a lofty tower ... found/ed in honour of Mary" in 908, since "Winchester"/Guintonhi in Arthurian seems to match Guinnion & Dover.
(The Cross and) St Mary of Guinnion [& Wedale] of Arthur also connects with St Mary of Reculver (not far from Dover, also in Kent).
Mary of Guinnion of the 12 battles of Arthur of Nennius might be connected with the Book of Hours of the Virgin & St Ninnian [of St Martin's, Hwiterne], and St Martin's Hwiterne "white house" may link with both Dover (white, St Martin le Grand) and Guinnion (white fort)?

Mary might link with Morwynion, or Morfyn "sea hill", or Moridunon "sea fort", or Morwenstow?

* We suggest that Mary, Igraine, Guinevere, Yseut, Morgana, Gwenwisa, Eafe, etc may be connected with Dover/Guinnion and each other.

(Not sure of the match for the image.)

x. the (carried/bore (up)on) "shoulder(s)/shield".

At battle of Guinnion "Arthur" bore Cross &/or Mary (up)on his Shoulder/s or Shield. Either or both well matches Dover:

The shoulder(s)/humeros/(i)scuid may match (at Dover) either:
- W & E Heights at Dover.
- The (North (& South)) Downs.
- “…a scapula [&/or thigh] believed to be a relic of St Alban…” (sent from European church to St Albans church in modern times).
[St Alban('s) = Dover/Albion = Guinnion/*Alborum.]
- Guan-humara/Guinevere (whose name links with Guinnion, and who appears in the Modena Archivolt which depicts a castle/tower that looks alot like Dover lighthouse).
- A literal actual shoulder brooch (like some think Arthur wore), cf "relics from Dover in the same collection, including a superb circular brooch set with garnets and pearls in a cruciform design".
- Caledonia/Britain the shape of an elongated shoulder-blade or battle-axe in Roman sources. The 4th battle site Celidon wood matches the Weald. (Caledonian wood of Caesar's invasion must be the Weald.)

The shield/(i)scuit may match (at Dover) either:
- white cliffs of Dover.
- the Weald of Kent/Downs, & ysgodion "shades, coverts".
- Yseut of castle of Windsor, & Yseut of chastel de Snowdon, both of which match castellum Guinnion and Dover?
- White Shield, &/or
Darian Las "Green/Blue Shield". ....
- Arthur's shield/ship Pry(d)wen? ....
- The noted shield in the Modena Archivolt (which has in it a tower/castle that looks alotlike Dover lighthouse)?
- Caledonia/Britain the shape of a shield or battle-axe in Livy, Fabius Rusticus, Tacitus? (Compare Kent?) The 4th battle site Celidon wood matches the Weald. There is seeming evidence that the name 'Britain' [&/or 'Albion'] is closely connected with Dover and the Downs &/or Weald. (Compare Dumbarton which connects with Dover and Guinnion.)

xi. fought against the "Saxons/pagans/heathen" ("from Germany" & "every province").

Arthur is clealry said to have fought 12 battles against the Saxons, and fought battle of Guinnion against Saxons or pagans/heathen.
"Saxon(s)" can mean either Anglo Saxons, or (West/South/East/Middle) Saxons (ie Wessex/Sussex/Essex/Middlesex). (Ethelwerd is reckoned to confound Saxons & Angles.)
The 'Saxon Shore'.
Hengist's advisor Ceretic?
Collingwood said that the words of Nennius/HB imply that "Arthur" was specifically fighting Kentishmen.
Sayles says the (West) Saxons ranged from the Wash to the Solent.
Orthodox Arthurian sources agree that the Anglo-Saxons were at that time mainly in the south-east quarter of England/Britain, and that the (West) Saxons were in the south of England/Britain.
Some think that Cerdicshore (1) was at Great Yarmouth, which would have West Saxons ranging from Norfolk to Hampshire.
Geoff of Monmouth has Saxons going around from "Lincoln" to "Totness"/"Severn"/"south".
"From Germany" implies on the east coast [and maybe Saxon Shore].
"From every province" implies to every province (Angles, Jutes, Saxons).
The fortress on a lofty "Saxon Rock" in the region Arestel nearby the narrows of Godalente seems to match Dover (straits) & (fort) Guinnion & (Mt) Eidyn.

Against the Saxons/pagans of Guinnion (5th) of the HB matches against the cynbyn "dog heads" of Eidyn (6th) of PaGur, and Eidyn matches Dover.
(In Biblical gentiles/heathen are called dogs.)
(St Guinefort's connection with cynocephali may link both the Saxons/pagans of fort Guinnion and the cynbyn of Eidyn.)
(Ulph in the Urien battles poem may also connect with the cynbyn of Eidyn?)
[The Jutes of Kent were called "sea wolves/dogs", and/or the Frisians "dog heads"?]
Gildas says "they sealed its doom by inviting in among them (like wolves into the sheepfold), the fierce and impious Saxons [Hengist & Horsa]".
"in England we often see men changed into wolves with changes of the moon" (Tilbury), and we show in this chapter that Guinnion & Dover might link with eclipse of 538?
[Wolf in sheeps clothing?]


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 18-Jan-2017 at 00:59
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Sorry not sure why 2nd half is all in white. Maybethere is a limit to the length of posts. Here is the part that was in white (if it posts right).

xii. the "drove out" / "turned in flight" (/ "pursued"?)

The "drove out" the Saxons in Irish version suggests a coastal site, and may well best fit Dover as the (first-entry &) last-exit extremity of Britain, and the shortest distance crossing point between Britain & mainland Europe. [The words suggest it is like saying "drove them completely out of Britain"?]
Perhaps compare "2nd battle King Arthur smashes the Saxons at Clarence / great victory drives saxons out of England".

xiii. the date (before "Ida" [c 547]), & ("3 days" &) "day".

We can't yet be totally certain of the exact right date match for the battle of Guinnion/[Badon] with/in Dover.

HB says the 12 battles of Arthur were down to time of Ida (who orthodox date ca 547).
Some orthodox scholars correspond battle of Guinnion of HB with battle of Badon 516/518 (or 554) of AC.
Welsh tradition has great victory of Arthur over the Saxons on St David's (birth)day 540 or 640 (~ "field of Leeks"?)
Guinnion/Dover might be connected with Ty Gwyn ["white house"] 527/528? or Finnabair 527/535? Wihtgarasburh ... (ASC)?

The calends of Martii 538 and calends of Julius 540 entries of ASC & Ethelwerd may possibly be connected with the battle of Guinnion at Dover (St Martin le Grand) and battle of city of the legion (St Julius) at Rutupi/Richborough.
Great slaughter of Guinnion might link with "great slaughter of Camlann 537"?
Gildas' 43 yrs could be 495-538? (Gildas' dates max range is 421-572.)

(These numbers/dates are similar: calends of Martii 538 ad, great victory 540/640, Athelstaneford 836 ad, Badon 840/940/960 fell/slain, Brunanburh/Brunandune 937/938/939 ad.)

(Possible sequence:
Bassas/Reculver ~ Cerdiesford/Avene 519?
Celidon/Weald ~ Cerdicsleaga 527 or Calcedonensis 538?
Guinnion/Dover ~ Cerdic dies 534, or Martii 538 &  Martianus 538?
Legions/Richborough ~ Julius 540?)

'St Mary in Castro' church may date as early as 600 ad according to sources.
Santa Maria de Bretona in Galicia (which we have suggested is analogously connected with Guinnion and Dover) was a Celtic bishopric from ca 569.

"who broke the dynasty of Kentish kings ... of which we hear no more after 512"?
"510-555 emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent".
"488-547 only landings of Saxons on the coast".
Gap between the 1st & 2nd Bretwaldas (Aelle of Sussex & Ceawlin of Wessex) c 491 - c 560?
No gains gap 519 - 552 in ASC?

Egonesham/Ignesham 571 (ASC) may be a later re/taking of Guinnion/Dover.

(xiv. the "Jerusalem")

The VR version of the Guinnion part of the 12 battles of Arthur says Arthur went to Jerusalem. This may be another match with Dover/Kent.
"Arthur" may have gone to the actual Jerusalem in Israel/Palestine, or he may have gone to a "Jerusalem" in Britain.

"Jerusalem" of Arthurian/Welsh may be either Dover / Guinnion or Rutupiae/Richborough / city of the legion/"Caerleon".
In the '24 kings & 33 cities' it says Caer Lleon ("city of legion") & Jerusalem built at same time. The city of the Legion is Rutupiae/Richborough (not far from Dover).
[India Vawr "Great India" ~ Great Britain?]
Cursalen of Kaicester the 6th of 11 Consuls of HRB of Geoff of Monmouth seems to match Guinnion 5th of 9 and Dover/Dubris 6th of 9. (Kay might link with Caius Julius Caesar who landed near Dover/Deal?)
"Jerusalem" may match "Verulam"/Uerolamiensem/Vaeclingacaestir/"St Alban's" of St Alban (of Gildas & Bede & Geoff of Monmouth).
St Alban('s) "fair" = Albion "white" = Dover (white) = Guinnion/*Alborum "white".
Jeru-salem "city of peace", white = peace (Dover & Guinnion both white).
[Jerusalem site of Cross/Crucifiction; Cross at Guinnion.]
(Garden of) Eden traditionally thought by some to be at Jerusalem; Mt Eidyn of PaGur = Dover [& Guinnion] (see detail xxi.)
Jerusalem site of Mt Zion/Calvary ~ Mt Eidyn ~ Dover's cliffs/heights/downs?
Jerusalem ~ Constantinople ~ Dover?
[Pope Sylvester and Gerusalemme ~ "Jerusalem"/Guinnion in Silva Celidon?]

(xv. the province of "Lodonesia")

The VR version of the 12 battles of the HB of "Nennius" mentions in the additional note to the bit part the 8th battle of Guinnion that pieces of Arthur's cross are preserved at Wedale in the province of Lodonesia.
The pieces of cross preserved at "Wedale" may match the Reculver Cross (see our chapters on Bassas and Avalon and the Levitating Altar).
Lodonesia is often assumed to be Lothian. However, Lodonesia may match (Lot of) Londonesia which may match London/Londres/Kaerlud (or else Lu(n)denbyrig/Othona).
Sometime ago I saw somewhere a source that had [Dover or other not far away Kent city] in the sphere of London's name reach.

xvi. is written in the 'HB' of "Nennius" (which also has the Wonders of Britain in it).

The authorship and date of writing of the HB (in which the 12 battles of Arthur (including Guinnion) are) is uncertainly disputed.

Orthodox sources claim that "Nennius" lived in Wales/West, but i haven't seen any serious proof of this. Asser mentioned that Nennius was reputed to have been at "Oxford". In Arthurian/Welsh "Oxford" might really be Reculver [Bassas] by the Wantsum-Stour.

Boso of Ridoc/Rico/Richiden/"Oxford" (11 Consuls, HRB).
Bassas [may mean "shallow"/"ford"] (12 battles, HB).
Swelling ford/shallows (Wonders, HB).
Episford/Ebissa (...).

Collingwood said Nennius' words imply Arthur was fighting specifically Kentishmen.
We first discovered that the 9 battle sites of Arthur in the HB of "Nennius" definitely match the 9 Saxon Shore sites. Later on we happened to also discover that the Wonders of Britain (which are also in the HB of "Nennius) also match the same 9 sites. In hindsight it looks obvious that "Nennius" would write the Wonders about the same sites. Surely the fact that both the 9 battle sites and the Wonders match the 9 SS sites means that our case is pretty strong. Though various of the Wonders match various of the 9 sites, we are not totally sure if/which wonders definitely match this site Dover/Guinnion, but some of the Wonders that seemingly may possibly match are: DuoRig Habren, the wind hole, [Brebic's stone (in a) cataract,] the sealess shore, [the Pictish Palace?]

Nennius said he used alot of sources which are similar to the ND. The ND has date 395/400s/420/420s/428, and the ND was at Speyer until 15th C/1542/16th C/before 1672. So it is possible that Nennius could have seen/known it.


"Nennius" might possibly be connected with "Ninnian" of 'Hwiterne'. The "Southern Picts", and St Martin's" 'Hwiterne' "white house" of the ASC might possibly really be our Guinnion ("white") and Dover (St Martin le Grand, white).
There might even be possibility that the medieval skeleton found in Dover Painted House is Nennius or Arthur?

xvii. is "history" ('Historia').

Nennius/HB says it is "Historia".
We have found stark real historical match for the 9 battle sites of Arthur of the HB.

xviii. is in "(the island of) Britain" (& "England/Anglia").

Nennius/HB says "Historia Britonum" and history of "(the island of) Britain". So the 12 battles of Arthur were in Great Britain.

ixx. the "in Celidon wood".

Some source said "Irish records preserve the notion that the Battle of Guindoin was within the Caledonion Forest".
Dover [which matches Guinnion] may be considered to have been more or less in (or bounded/bracketed by) the Weald [which matches Celidon Wood].
(The 4th battle site Celidon wood matches the Weald. Caledonian wood of Caesar's invasion must be the Weald. Geoffrey of Monmouth's HRB says Celidon on right and London on left, and dictonary says word north related to nertrak "left".)
Some Roman source/s thought Rutupi/Richborough was [in] a wood [or the Caledonian wood?]

Other Arthurian/Welsh sources with synonymous or analogous places (/) names also suggest the close association:
Galafort & Celidoine.
Hoary rock in the wood (Scilly/Lyonesse)?
Lofty wood-clad rock dinas Emrys?
Whiteshield & Greenshield?
Alcluith (ail "rock" + river Clyde [or Caledon?])?
Celli & Celliwig?
Arthuret & Caledon?
Colguan & Glasgwin?
[Shoulder(s) & shield??]
se nemus & "Stirling"?
[affair at head of wood & Alclud?]
green woodland & white town/white stone/Wigracester/"Chester" 584?
Ergyng & Dubricius?

(xx. the correspondence of battle of fort Guinnion & battle of "Mt Badon".)

Some orthodox scholars correspond the battle of Guinnion of the HB and the battle of Badon of the AC/WA because both have similar descriptions of "Arthur bore Cross/Mary on shoulder(s)").
Dover matches Guinnion of HB, and we find that it also has match for (Mount/Hill (and)) Badon:
According to locals, at Dover is "lost village of Braddon within Drop Redoubt on Dover Western Heights", "the ancient name of Braddon", "I would suspect that Bradden would more likely be on the highest point of the hill", which is related to the names Bredenstone and Devil's drop of Mortar for the Dover lighthouse/pharos.
The "mount/hill" of Badon matches at Dover either the cliffs, Drop, heights, or Downs.
Badon was a "siege", and a siege may fit Dover?

"the Welsh in Tysilio place it [Badon] near Winchester in Hants." This can match either/both of our Dover/Braddon [Guinnion/"Badon"] ("Winchester"/Guintonhi), and/or Portchester/Adurni [Badon] (near Winchester).

Dover/Dubris [Guinnion] and Portchester/Adurni [Badon] are both similar in: both connected with Downs (North Downs & South Downs), both have white, both channel crossing ports thereabouts in Arthurian stories (port Dubris/Dover & Hamo's port), both have St Mary.

xxi. indirect matches of Guinnion & Dover by both matching synonymous or analogous places (/) names of other sources.

Mt Eidyn of Pa Gur matches both Guinnion and Dover/Dubris.
Matches of Eidyn & Guinnion/[Badon]:
Both Arthur(ian). Both 5th/6th of 9. [Both seat/siege.] Both match Dover. Saxons/pagans of Guinnion = cynbyn of Eidyn. Both may link with Din Eidyn. Fell by 100s = great slaughter.
Matches of Mt Eidyn & Dover:
At Dover is found name Edinburgh Hill. Both 6th (of 9 sites). Eidyn is a mynydd "a bald head, (bare) mount, moor", which matches Dover's cliffs, heights, drop, downs. [Both have a link with drinking/Bacchic?]

Arddunion analogously matches both Guinnion & Dover:
Matches between Arddunion & Guinnion:
Both fort. Both match Dover. Arddduion [4th/6th of 9/11] ~ Guinnion 5th/8th of 9/12.
Matches between Arddunion & Dover:
Ard "height" matches Dover cliffs/heights/downs. Arddunion [3rd/4th/6th of 8/9/11] ~ Dover/Dubris 6th of 9.

Galafort matches both fort Guinnion and Dover.
Matches of Galafort & fort Guinnion:
Both Arthurian. Both forts. Both sign of cross. Both associated with Celidon. Gala-fort & Wedale/Vallis-doloris/Gwaedol/Gala_Water?
Matches of Galafort & Dover:

Guinevere & castle/tower of Modena Archivolt matches both Guinnion and Dover.
(The Modena Archivolt features: (woman) Winlogee/"Guinevere", Burmaltus/Durmart le Galois, Mardoc/"Melwas/Meleagant"/"Mordred", castle &/or tower (middle), Artus de Bretannia, Galvariun & shield.)
Matches between MA & Guinnion/[Badon]:
Both Arthur(ian). Both guin. Both castle/tower/fort. Both shield. Both Cross/Galvarium. Both match Dover. St Mary ~ Guinevere? [Both cavalry.]
Matches between MA & Dover:
The castle/tower looks very much like the Dover lighthouse. Durmart &/or Mardoc = St Martin le Grand.

Guintonhi/"Winchester" matches both Guinnion and Dover:
Matches between Guintonhi/"Winchester" & Guinnion:
Both guin/win. Both -on. Both Arthurian. Both match Dover. Both chester/castle/fort.
Matches between Guintonhi/"Winchester" & Dover:
"the earth shall swallow up" prophecy suits Dover with its cliffs/heights/downs. Both match Guinnion.

Cursalen of Kaicester of HRB matches both Guinnion & Dover.
Matches between Cursalen/Kaicester & Guinnion:
Both Arthurian. Both 5th/6th (of 9/11 matching sites). Both associated with "Jerusalem". Both match Dover.
Matches between Cursalen/Kaicester & Dover/Dubris:
Both 6th (of 9/11 matching sites). Both Kai/Caius. Both match Guinnion/"Jerusalem".

Castle of "Snowdon"/Isneldone matches Guinnion & Dover
Match of Snowdon & Guinnion:
Both castle/fort(let). Both snow/guin/white. Yseut [white lady] of Snowdon matches Mary &/or shield/iscuit of Guinnion.
Match of Snowdon "snow hill" & Dover:
Hill/arddu = Dover cliffs/heights/downs. Both snow/white/Albion. Dover is not far from a 'Snowdown'.

The fortress on a lofty "Saxon Rock" in the region Arestel nearby the narrows of Godalente of the Vulgate cycle could match both fort Guinnion and straits of Dover.
Saxon Rock & Guinnion:
Both forts. Both Saxons.
Saxon Rock & Dover:
Lofty/rock matches Dover's cliffs/heights/downs. Narrows of Godalente match Straits of Dover. Both "Saxons" thereabouts.

Dumbarton/Dunbrettan ["fort of the Britons/Britain"] / Caer Alclyd/Alclud [meaning/from ail "(a) rock", or "a height/cliff", or "white", or "a house site", + "river Clyde", or "Caledon"] (towards Albani) analogously matches Guinnion & Dover.
Matches between Dumbarton / Alclud & Guinnion:
Both forts. Both white/Albani.
Matches between Dumbarton / Alclud & Dover/Dubris:
rock = Dover cliffs/heights/downs; fort of Britons/Britain ~ cliifs/port of Albion. Both white/Albani/Albion.

Santa Maria de Bretona matches Guinnion & Dover:
Matches between Santa Maria de Bretona & Guinnion:
Both St Mary; both Britons/Britain/Bretona; both close dates; both match Dover.
Matches between Santa Maria de Bretona & Dover:
Both St Mary; church & tower of SM de B looks vaguely similar to church & lighthouse of Dover; both match Guinnoin; both associated with another site (Santiago de Compostela may match Richborough or Reculver).

St Mary on the Rock (Fife) matches Guinnion & Dover:
Matches between SM on the Rock & Guinnion:
Both St Mary; Culdees may connect with Celidon?
Matches between SM on the Rock & Dover:
Both St Mary; rock = Dover cliffs/heights/downs.

Hwiterne may synonymously or analogously match Guinnion and Dover?
Matches between Hwiterne ("white house") & Guinnion ("white fort"):
Both white; both link with Ty Gwyn ("white house"); both match Dover; both southern, both "Picts"? Ninnian may link with Nennius? Both close dates.
Matches between Hwiterne & Dover:
Both southern; both St Martin('s); both white; both match Guinnion; both have a "house".

-----
"Countries that destroy their past deserve no future".



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 18-Jan-2017 at 00:54
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2017 at 01:23
You say:  (5th) Guinnion/[Badon]=(6th) Dover/Dubris (= (6th) Eidyn)

I don't know what that means, it short hand for something, but you need to spell it out better, and then convert into shorthand.  I think I get that Guinnion is the same (name?) as Badon, and Dover is the same as Dubris, and maybe one 6th is "equal to' another 6th,  and the 5th is equal to the 6th???


(12 battles =) 9 battle sites of Arthur in Historia Britonum of Nennius,
matches
9 Saxon Shore sites from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth,
matches
9 battles sites of Arthur in the 'Pa Gur'.

Guinnion the (8th battle =) 5th battle site of Arthur in the HB of Nennius
(matches
Badon in Annales Cambriae / Welsh Annals)
matches
Dover/Dubris/Braddon the 6th Saxon Shore site
matches
Mt Eidyn (Eidyn 2) the 6th battle site of Arthur in the PaGur.

Guinnion/*Alborum is "white". Guinnion against Saxons/pagans. Guinnion 5th of 9. Guinnion where Arthur bore cross/Mary on shoulders.
(Badon where Arthur bore cross/Mary on shoulders.)
Dover is white. Dover has place Braddon, Dover has place Edinburgh Hill. DOver has cliffs/heights/downs. Dover 6th of 9.
Eidyn is a (bald) mount. Eidyn against dog-heads. Eidyn 6th of 9.

The last 2 posts (1 post in 2 parts) gives all these and more matches evidences details.


So if you want to continue it, then continue writing and working on your arguments.  But don't do it for others, do it for you.  If the evidence is there, it will get out, but it will not necessarily be you.  Maybe you are not the person that makes it break through.  Maybe you are the person that inspires the person that leads it to break through.


No one has the right to steal my credit, and/or to deny me credit for what good discoveries / connections and hard work i have done just because i am not able to write it in perfect English or prove even more a few remaining uncertain points.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 18-Jan-2017 at 01:35
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2017 at 11:27

Ok we managed to rewrite abit better another battle site / chapter. This one is 3rd site Bassas [Reculver].

Thats 2 out of 9 redone for the people that were harshly criticizing me for "sloppy", and many other mean things. But it has been such excessive hard work a-midst bad socio-econimic/etc situation, and has taken me from other things i need and want to do, and has cost me precious clean unfluoridated water rations, that i am not keen on doing anymore, sorry, unless someone assists me socio-econimically/etc or at least gives me clean water.

(Sorry there is some repetition in and between the battle sites chapters. It can't be helped, i had to arrange it the way i have, and people nastily forced me to have to explain everything as if to totally ignorant.)

(12 battles but) 9 battle sites of Arthur of the HB of "Nennius"
match
9 Saxon Shore sites from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth.
(match
9 battle sites of Arthur of the Pa Gur.)

This map clearly shows our 9 sites matches :
http://2rbetterthan1.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/map-12battleska-9fortsss2.png

Bassas (6th battle but) 3rd battle site of Arthur of the HB of Nennius
matches
Reculver/Regulbium 4th site of the Saxon Shore.
(matches
Afarnach's Hall 4th/3rd battlesite of Arthur in the PaGur.)

Quote of the Bassas part of the 12 battles (but 9 battle sites) of Arthur in the HB of "Nennius":

" Then (it was, that the magnanimous) Arthur(,) fought against {them / the Saxons} {in those days / ,} with (all) the kings (and military force) of (the) Britain(s)(. And though there were many more noble than himself,) but/yet he (himself) was (twelve times chosen) the(ir) leader/commander {of battles / , and was as often conqueror}.

....

[3rd site:]
(Sextum bellum super flumen(,) quod vocatur Bassas. (Omitted in LF.))

(in seiseadh cath fhor bru Bassa;)

(The sixth {battle (was) / ,} by/on {the brink of the / the river (that/which is named/called)} Bassas/Lussas [people/person name Basse's, or meaning "shallow" or "ford" or "forehead" or "mound in the estuary or bed of a river''?]./;)

....

[And] in all his/these battles/engagements {he / the Britons} proved/were victorious/successful. For no strength can avail against the will of the Almighty.
The more the Saxons were vanquished, the more they sought for new supplies of Saxons from Germany; so that kings, commanders, and military bands were invited over from almost every province. And this practice they continued till the reign of Ida, who was the son of Eoppa, he, of the Saxon race, was the first king in Bernicia, and in Cair Ebrauc (York). "

From the quoted source we see 12 identification details for the battle site of Bassas:

i(a) - called/name Bassas
i(b) - meaning of name Bassas (person/people name, or "shallow" or ...)
ii - river/brink
iii - fought "on/by/above/[east of]"
iv - a battle there (~ strategic, works/defenses/fortification) (British won.)
v - number/order ("3/3rd" in a set of "9" sites with 8 others)
(+ is near previous & next sites).
vi - omitted in LF.
vii - fought by "Arthur/Britons"
viii - "against Saxons" (from every province)
ix - date "before Ida" ["c 547"]
x - written in the HB of Nennius (which also has the Wonders)
xi - is "historia"
xii - in "(island of) Britain"

(The 9 Saxon Shore sites is the only group of 9 sites that only-best match the 9 battle sites of Arthur of the HB of "Nennius", and)
Reculver/Regulbium is the only site that only-best matches most-all of the 12 identification details of the battle site of Bassas. (The only 1/2/3 that we can't yet totally prove in archaeology (&/or non-"unreliable" records) is/are the Britons there then, & the battle actually fought there then, & the date?)

Now we give more detailed explanation of these 12 details of Bassas and their matches with Reculver/Regulbium:

i(a) - called/name Bassas,
i(b) - meaning of name Bassas (person/people name, or "shallow" or ...)

The (6th battle but) 3rd battle site of Arthur is called Bassas. This name (which is plural in the Latin & singular in the Irish) and/or its meaning matches with any one or more of these at our site Reculver/Regulbium:

- The basilica of the Reculver inscription. (The basilica is one of "two of its [Reculver's/Regulbium's] principal buildings".)
- The cohors i Baetasiorum (whose name is from the Baetasii tribe) who where earlier at Regulbium.  (Compare that someone did give 4 suggestions for the linguistics of Bassas including bastast/bastass.)

- Episford / Ebissa / Ebbsfleet?
[- Bassas & Reculver are possibly connected with 'Boso of Rico/Ridoc/Richiden/"Oxford"' (in the 11 consuls/cities (which seemingly match our 9 battle sites) of  Geoff of Monmouth's HRB), and 'caer Bosso'/"Bosso's city"/"Rhydycheu"/"caer Vembyr" (in the '24 kings & 33 cities'). The word rhyd/rith = "ford". Rico/Ridoc/Richiden/Rhydycheu is possibly either/both Rutupi/red-top/Richborough (c/p interchange in P & Q Celtic) and/or Reculver/Regulbium. (Reculver & Richborough are not far away from each other and are abit like sisters/neighbours.) "Oxford" could connect with the Wantsum-Stour (and with Bassas "shallow"/"ford",and the Swelling Ford/Shallows of the Wonders).]
[- "2 streams Rheidiol and Paith" in Saints Lives might be in the vicinity of our two battle sites Rutupi/Richborough [Legions] and Reculver/Regulbium [Bassas] in the Wantsum-Stour area? Paith is vaguely similar to Bassas?]
[- Bosanhamm 681 Bede?]
[- Not sure if Boroware could also connect with Boso?]

- Bass/Bassa/Basse the Priest who was later at Reculver (669 ASC). (The main one of the 2 proposed theories of scholars for the linguistics of Bassas is "the people/person name Bassingas / (people of) (*)Bassa('s) / (*)Basse('s) / Basa('s)". Compare Baschurch / 'eglwysau Bassa' "churches of Bassa".)

- Bass/bathais "forehead" or "basket". The name Reculver/Regulbium means "at the promontory / great headland"; and the SS fort "entrance faced north / on north side, facing the eponymous promontory".
- (*)bas(s) "shallow" &/or bais "ford", which could match the Wantsum-Stour. (Compare the 'swelling shallows/ford' in the 'Wonders of Britain'.)
- bass "mound in the estuary or bed of a river''?

We can indirectly confirm that Bassas = Reculver by that the traditional "Baschurch" connects with both:

Bassas = Baschurch = monastery-church Reculver = Afarnach's Hall = Hall on the isle of Afallach (Triads) = Avalon "in North sea" (Irish).

Baschurch is one of 3 claimed resting places of Arthur (the other 2 being the Levitating Altar and Avalon) that are all (inter)connected with Reculver/Regulbium [Bassas] (see detail vii below).

'The Bass' / 'Bass Rock' in Lothian and Reculver in Kent are in an analogous positions?

Bassalig ~ Campus Electi. Reculver [Bassas] is near Rcihborough [Camelot?]

ii - river/brink.

The 6th battle of Bassas was fought on/by/above a river. There is a river at our site (Reculver) : the river Wantsum-Stour or "river Genlada".

Some versions/translations imply that the river itself was called Bassas, though some don't necessarily. I can't yet prove that the river itself was called Bassas, only that the general site & area has a number of major Bassas name &/or meaning matches candidates. [Perhaps see Ep(i)sford / Ebissa, &/or Paith in detail # i. above? Or "river of the Bassas"? The meanings "shallow" & "ford" can certainly match the Wantsum-Stour then.] Some other Bass- place names in England/Britain are also associated with rivers too: Basford, Dinas Bassa / Basingwerk, Bassingham, Bassington.

iii - "on/by/above/east of"

Various versions/trranslations say the battle of Bassas was fought "on/by/above/east of" the river. Any of these may match our Reculver site.

"On the river" may match Reculver as "which lies on
the (northern) mouth of the river Genlada/Yenlet".

"Above the river" may match the fort being directly at northern/top end/entrance of Wantsum-Stour. Also maybe compare the name Regulbium's/Reculver's meaning "at the promontory/great headland", &/or the description of the fort "entrance faced north / on north side, facing the eponymous promontory"?

For the “east of”: [I'm not sure if the fort is on west/east of river but i assume that it is not on the Thanet side?] Might match “an inlet north-west of Reculver” (though the “harbour probably on/near to the fort’s southern or eastern side”), or Westbere & Westgate-on-sea, & west towers, or "roads to the south-west", or Birchington on east of Reculver? And/or it could match that Reculver is in "the east coast" &/or (South-)East of England?

iv - a battle there (~ strategic, works/defenses/fortification) (British won.)

The main purpose of our paper is only to show that we discovered that the 2 sets of 9 sites (the 9 battle sites of Arthur of the HB & the 9 Saxon Shore sites) definitely match, not necessarily to also prove that the battles were actually fought there then. It is possible that "Nennius" just stole/copied the 9 sites but made the actual battles up.

We can't yet absolutely prove archaeologically in the site ground (or in non-"unreliable" records) that the Bassas battle was actually fought at Reculver then, we can only give some seeming possible evidences so far found. But the evidence is overwhelming that the 9 battle sites of Arthur of the HB of Nennius match the 9 Saxon Shore forts.

Archaeological evidence that battle (of Bassas) fought there & then may include:
The fort, and possible physical traces of battle/s there. (Not much remains standing of the fort except for the twin sisters towers.)
["Numerous Saxon cemetaries found at Sarre, Ash, Kingston"?]
There is evidence that some of the SS forts were still/again in re/use in Arthurian times.

Strategic evidence that battle (of Bassas) fought there & then may include:
"[those who control the SE have the main power/hold in Britain]"?
There are roads linking our sites. Canterbury is at intersection of roads to 3/4/5 of our battle sites.
Saxon Shore is strategic.

Records evidence that battle (of Bassas) fought there & then may include:
The 12 battles / 9 battle sites of the HB definitely match the 9 Saxon Shore sites (in names/meanings, natures/geographies/details and numbers/order), with the 3rd battle site of Bassas certainly matching Reculver/Regulbium.
Collingwood said Nennius' words implied that "Arthur was fighting Saxons & specifically Kentishmen".
The battlesite of Afarnach of the Pa Gur also seems to match Reculver.
[- Church of St Martin at Canterbury? (Mintz's paper suggested a connection between Martin and Mars/Ares (war god) and Arthur/Merlin. Canterbury is at intersection of roads leading to 3/4/5 of our battle sites.)]

We and some others have thought that the battle of Cerdicesford (2)/Avene 519 of the ASC & Ethelwerd may possibly match our Bassas and Reculver (Wantsum-Stour) and Avalon. Some reasons why include: It had "no winner", and is in the "no gains gap" of "519-552" in the ASC. The ford may match the Wantsum-Stour & Bassas "shallow"/"ford" & the Swelling Ford/Shallows of the Wonders. Avene may match Avalon/Aaron/Afarnach (see detail vii below). There could be a matching battles sequence of Bassas ~ Cerdicesford 519, Celidon ~ Cerdicesleaga 527, Guinnion ~ Martii 538, Legions ~ Julius 540?

The battle at Bensington/"Benson" of the 571 ASC/Ethelwerd entry may be a later Saxon re/taking of our Bassas/Reculver site. The 571 sites were hitherto considered to be in Bedford/Buckingham, but some doubt this. Three of the 571 sites names match 3 of the battle sites of Arthur of the HB (Guinnion [Dover], Legions [Rutupi/Richborough], Bassas [Reculver]), and from this and from other ASC entries it seems possible that these sites might be our battlesites in Kent (or else the 571 sites may be analogous namesakes).

Records or/and archaeology:
"510-555 emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent".
"British strategy seems to have been to allow Saxon landings and to then contain them, there."
"488-547 only landings of Saxons on the coast". (Another source says Saxons/battles "were largely limited to the coast", though at abit earlier date.)

v - number/order ("3/3rd" in a set of "9" sites) (+ is near previous & next sites).

The HB of Nennius has a set of 9 battle sites of Arthur (which match 9 of 10 actual sites from Brancaster to Portsmouth).
The ND has a set of 9 Saxon Shore forts (which match 9 of 10 actual sites from Yarmouth to Portsmouth).
Each and all of "only" 8 of the 9 battle sites of Arthur/Nennius/HB (& actual sites) match each and all of "only" 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore sites of the ND (and actual sites) all in numerical & geographical order (which can not be coincidence) from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth.

The ND(-&-actual) has an "extra" 1st fort that the HB(-&-actual) doesn't; and the ND(-&-actual) doesn't have the 4th site of the HB(-&-actual). The HB(-&-actual) has an "extra" 4th site that ND(-&-actual) doesn't, and the HB(-&-actual) doesn't have the 1st fort of ND(-&-actual).

8 matching HB & SS/ND sites, plus the "extra" 1st SS/ND fort, plus the "extra" 4th HB site, makes 10 actual SS sites from Brancaster to Portsmouth.

Bassas the 3rd battle site of Arthur of the HB matches Reculver/Regulbium the [4th] site of the SS/ND (and both match Afarnach the 4th/3rd battle site of the PG).

(Regulbium is the 4th SS fort (in geographical order) in the ND, but 3rd fort excluding the 1st fort Brancaster/Branodunum (which the HB excludes). The HB adds in 4th battle site Celidon [Kit's Coty / Coldrum] in between the 3rd/[2nd] and 4th/[3rd] SS/ND forts, making Reculver/Bassas the [4th] HB-&-SS/ND site going around the coast.)

The minor cross-switch match of 3rd & 4th sites between HB & SS/ND is confirmed in other sources. (HB is in battles order, SS/ND is in sites order).

Bassas 3rd of HB/Nennius;
Reculver/Regulbium 4th/3rd of SS/ND;
Afarnach's Hall 4th/"3rd" of PG.
[Arthgal/Cargueit 4th of 11 Consuls of HRB?]
Aeron [3rd?] of Gwallawg.

(The cross-switch is only if counting going around the coast by land.)

All other locations theories do not have a match of the numbers/order, they only match the 9 HB sites with artificial associations of 9 unnumbered sites, not with an attested list/group of 9 numbered sites like ours.

3rd/4th battle site Bassas/Afarnach of the HB/PG is near 2nd site Dubglas/Eidyn, 4th/3rd site Celidon/Celli, 5th/6th site Guinnion/Eidyn, and 6th/5th site Legions/Dissethach. This matches our site Reculver [Bassas/Afarnach] which is near Othona [Dubglas/Eidyn], Coldrum [Celidon/Celli], Dover [Guinnion/Eidyn], and Richborough/Rutupi [Legions/Dissethach].

The 12 battles are 9 battle sites since battles 2-5 were in same 1 site, and "Nennius" lists all 9 in order. Since the first 3 are all rivers, and 2 of the middle 3 are settlements, and the last 2 of the last 3 are mountains/hills, the 9 (3x3) battle sites is considered by some to have possibly been 3 sets of 3 rivers, 3 settlements and 3 hills. [Sites 3 and 4 are switched in some lists.] The middle 3 battle sites #s 4-6 (Celidon or Bassas, Guinnion, Legions) as all settlements matches our 3 sites in Kent (Aylesford or Reculver, Richborough/Rutupi, Dover/Dubris). Compare the "3 renowned cities" of another source?

Jacqueta Hawkes says Reculver was more like Brancaster than the other Kentish forts, which may match that Bassas is grouped with/in the first 3 battle sites not in the middle 3 sites in the HB? Plus the first 3 SS/ND forts are at rivers, like the first 3 battle sites of the HB (except that 1 of the 3 sites in each of the two lists is different).

vi - omitted in LF.

I am not sure why this Bassas battle is omitted in the Liber Floridus version (like the Irish HB omits 8th battle site Agned/Bregion), nor sure how this best matches with our site Reculver. Possible reasons might include:
Some one had an ingenous theory that they might have linked Bassas with the classical Katabasis "to go down, a ritualised symbolic descent (in)to the underworld/hell, descent from the interior to the coast possibly following the course of a river, the opposite of anabasis". This matches our Reculver/Regulbium [= Bassas/Afarnach, & = Avalon] well.
Bassas and Celidon are 3rd & 4th battles, while Reculver and Kit's Coty / Coldrum are 4th & 3rd sites, which means they can't have got to Reculver before Kit's Coty / Coldrum by land.
Part of Reculver fort has been eroded away.
The Irish HB also omits the wonders of Britain which we certainly identified with Richborough [city of the legion].
"Pictish Palace" that had pictures of the 12 battles of Arthur may have been damaged?
The Wantsum-Stour changed geography?
Reculver is Bassas/Afarnach (3rd/4th) and Avalon (10th/13th), so may have been counted as 10th not 3rd/4th.
Bassas had stumped scholars of the 1900s, maybe it also stumped St Omer?

vii - fought by "Arthur/Britons".

The only main purpose of our paper is to show that we discovered that the 2 sets of 9 sites (the 9 battle sites of Arthur & the 9 Saxon Shore sites) definitely match. We do not have to prove whether "(King) Arthur" existed or not (though we have touched on this to some extent this in our papers/posts).

We can't yet absolutely prove that "Arthur" &/or Britons were in the Reculver [Bassas] area then (as opposed to hitherto orthodox opinions that the south-east was all Anglo-Saxon then). However some recent scholars (like Ken Dark) are disupting the belief that the south-east was all Saxon, and recent sources admit that the true Saxons/Britons exact situation then is far from clear. Nevertheless, ours evidence is overwhelming that the 9 battle sites of Arthur/Nennius match the 9 Saxon Shore forts (in names/meanings, natures/details/geographies and numbers/order).

There are some seeming evidences for the "Arthur" &/or the Britons being in the south-east/Kent area then (and/or that the south-east wasn't just all Anglo-Saxon as orthodox have it). Some such evidences that we have so far found may include:
- The 9 battle sites of Arthur certainly match the 9 SS sites in names/meanings, details/geographies/natures and numbers/order.
- "Arthur" fought the (West) Saxons who were mainly in the south-east quarter. (He is said to have fought Cerdic & Colgrin & Baldulph.)
- Kent & Canterbury are Celtic names.
- Canterbury had little or no Saxon cemetaries.
- the Medway river marked the boundary of Britons & Saxons (though at earlier date)?
- the British St Martin's church Canterbury?
- The Weald may have been like refuge for Britons.
- Traditional Arthurian stories/histories mention south/southeast/east places including: London, [Raculf/Riculf?], Chislehurst, Rutupi/Richborough (where "Gawain" died), Dover, Winchelsea, Gaul/France, North Sea.
Chislehurst caves are connected in traditions with Vortigern & Merlin.
[- "Arthur" could possibly be the pre-Augustine Christian "Ethelbert" of ASC?]
- "it is insisted that they [Saxons] avoided the Roman towns & forts"?
- On the SS forts "There has been no consensus amongst those who write about the transition from the Romans to the Anglo-Saxons."
- Arthurian sources say Arthur drove the Saxons out of Britain.
- "Wurdesten speaks of the Britons leaving their ancestral land when the Saxons occupied it"?
- Some suggest 2 groups of settlers [in Kent]: 1st Anglo-Saxon, 2nd Franks "who broke the dynasty of Kentish kings ... of which we hear no more after 512"?]
- Arthurian/Welsh/etc sources mention names similar to Reculver/Regulbium &/or Margate (including "Raglan" of 12 Monasteries, "Riculf/Raculf" of HRB, Rico/Ridoc/Richiden/Rhydycheu/"Oxford", etc).
- Gildas says "neither to this day are our cities inhabited .. . forsaken & overthrown".

Arthur may have been buried at Reculver [Bassas]. Some reasons for this idea/opinion are:
- Some think that the mysterious body of the Levitating Altar in the Wonders of Britain may be Arthur. The Levitating Altar seemingly well matches the Reculver Cross.
This may connect with pieces of Arthur's cross &/or image of Mary preserved at "Wedale"/Vallis-Doloris, 6 miles west of Meil-ros, in province of "Lodonesia".
Wedale/Vallis-Doloris may match Reculver & Wantsum-Stour. (There is also a church of St Mary at Reculver like there is one at Dover [Guinnion]. Vallis-Doloris might match Avalon?)
Meil-ros (meaning "yellow" / "bare headland/promontory/moor(land)" / "wood") may match Richborough/Rutupiae [& Camelot].
Lodonesia may match Londonesia and London.
- Avalon (in the North sea in Irish) = Hall on isle of Afallach = Afarnach's Hall (4th/3rd battle site of Arthur in the Pa Gur) = Bassas (3rd battle site of Arthur in the HB) = Reculver.
Avalon is Avaron in Boron, and may link with St Aaron the companion of St Julius of the 'city of the legion' which is Richborough/Rutupi (and of St Alban who connects with Dover/Albion). (Avalon may also match Vallis-doloris?)
- Local tradition of Arthur resting at "Baschurch" analogously matches our Bassas & Reculver (monastery-church).
- Reculver has connection with Glastonbury (where is claimed grave of Arthur).
- The retreat of Brecheinawc (Gafran) may also match Avalon and Reculver [Bassas]. Compare Brychan's sepulchre. The Vallis/Valley of Brychan/Rosina/Wedale/Avalon fits Wantsum-Stour (and/or fits difference between Dover & Richborough). A "certain regulus" Brychan (Vita Cadog) may link with Regulbium/Reculver? The names might link with Birchington near Reculver? Brychan's sepulchre is in/near
Mannia/Mynav, and there is a Minnis Bay near Reculver (plus Nennius analogously corresponded "Mon(a)Anglesey"/"Man" with Thanet, and some versions of Watling Street link both places at either ends).
- Some think they may have connected Bassas [Reculver] with the classical Katabasis "to go down, a ritualised symbolic descent (in)to the underworld/hell, descent from the interior to the coast possibly following the course of a river, the opposite of anabasis".
- Arthurs body may have been shifted to Dover (or else to Glastonbury). (The skeleton found in St Martin le Grand church near Dover Painted House may be Arthur.)

Levitating Altar (Wonders) = Reculver Cross (archaeology) = Reculver (actual site) = Regulbium (ND) = Bassas (HB) = Afarnach's Hall (PG) = Hall on the isle of Afallach (Triads) = Avalon "in North sea" (Irish).


(The "Picts" of the later Liber Floridus version of St Omer is too long to discuss here. Suffice to say that either (1) we are wrong, or (2) St Omer is Wrong, or (3) the name "Picts" doesn't refer to the assumed Picts of north Scotland. We are certainly not wrong that the 9 battle sites of Arthur match the 9 Saxon Shore sites. St Omer could certainly be wrong. (Note: compare 'dux bellorum' (HB), 'dux Pictorum' (LF), 'dux britanniarum' (ND?).) There is certainly evidences suggesting that "Picts" (and "Caledonian") can refer to other Britons. ....)

viii - "against Saxons" (from every province)

Arthur is clearly said to have fought 12 battles (which include Bassas) against the Saxons. This does match our site Reculver's area.

"Saxon(s)" can mean either Anglo Saxons, or (West/South/East/Middle) Saxons (ie Wessex/Sussex/Essex/Middlesex). (Ethelwerd is reckoned to confound Saxons & Angles.)
The 'Saxon Shore'.
Hengist's advisor Ceretic?
Collingwood said that the words of Nennius/HB imply that "Arthur" was specifically fighting Kentishmen.
"Numerous Saxon cemetaries found at Sarre, Ash, Kingston".
Sayles says the (West) Saxons ranged from the Wash to the Solent.
Orthodox Arthurian sources agree that the Anglo-Saxons were at that time mainly in the south-east quarter of England/Britain, and that the (West) Saxons were in the south of England/Britain.
Some think that Cerdicshore (1) was at Great Yarmouth, which would have West Saxons ranging from Norfolk to Hampshire.
Geoff of Monmouth has Saxons going around from "Lincoln" to "Totness"/"Severn"/"south".
"From Germany" implies on the east coast [and maybe Saxon Shore].
"From every province" implies to every province (Angles, Jutes, Saxons).
Some Arthurian sources say Arthur drove the Saxons out of Britain which implies at least one coastal site.

ix - date "before Ida" ["c 547"]

We can't yet be totally certain of the exact right date match for the battle of Bassas with/in Reculver/Regulbium.

HB says the 12 battles of Arthur were down to time of Ida (who orthodox date ca 547).
Arthur fought the (West) Saxons (Cerdic, Colgrin, Baldulph).

Cerdiecsford/Avene 519 might match our Bassas and Reculver.

(Possible sequence:
Bassas/Reculver ~ Cerdiesford/Avene 519?
Celidon/Weald ~ Cerdicsleaga 527 or Calcedonensis 538?
Guinnion/Dover ~ Cerdic dies 534, or Martii 538 &  Martianus 538?
Legions/Richborough ~ Julius 540?)

"who broke the dynasty of Kentish kings ... of which we hear no more after 512"?
"510-555 emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent".
"488-547 only landings of Saxons on the coast".
Gap between the 1st & 2nd Bretwaldas (Aelle of Sussex & Ceawlin of Wessex) c 491 - c 560?
No gains gap 519 - 552 in ASC?

Bensington 571 may be a later Saxon re/taking of our Bassas / Reculver.

x - in "HB/Nennius" (which also has the Wonders).

How much evidence is there that "Nennius" or the writer of the HB (in which are the 12 battles / 9 battle sites of Arthur) or his source knew the Kent area (where we found 5 of the 9 battle sites of Arthur)?

The authorship and date of writing of the HB (in which the 12 battles of Arthur (including Bassas) are) is uncertainly disputed.

Orthodox sources claim that "Nennius" lived in Wales/West, but i haven't seen any serious proof of this. Asser mentioned that Nennius was reputed to have been at "Oxford". In Arthurian/Welsh "Oxford" might really be Reculver [Bassas] by the Wantsum-Stour.

Boso of Ridoc/Rico/Richiden/Rhydycheu/"Oxford" (11 Consuls, HRB).
Bassas [may mean "shallow"/"ford"] (12 battles, HB).
Swelling ford/shallows (Wonders, HB).
Episford/Ebissa (...).

Collingwood said Nennius' words imply Arthur was fighting specifically Kentishmen.
We first discovered that the 9 battle sites of Arthur in the HB of "Nennius" definitely match the 9 Saxon Shore sites. Later on we happened to also discover that the Wonders of Britain (which are also in the HB of "Nennius) also match the same 9 sites (and some of them are very stark matches). In hindsight it looks obvious that "Nennius" would write the Wonders about the same sites. Surely the fact that both the 9 battle sites and the Wonders match the 9 SS sites means that our case is pretty strong.
Some of the Wonders which seemingly do or may match Reculver [Bassas] are:
- the Appled Ash might match Avalon which seems to match Reculver [Bassas/Afarnach]?
- the Wind Hole/Cave might match Margate caves or Chislehurst caves or the caves of Birchington?
- the Levitating Altar seems to match the Reculver Cross.
[- limpets of ceoil may be oysters at Richborough or Reculver?]
[- screams of Glen Ailbe?]
- the Sealess Shore may match cliffs at either Dover or Reculver.
- the Swelling Ford/Shallows may match Wantsum-Stour (or else Medway). (One possible meaning of Bassas is "shallow" or "ford".)
(Some are certain, some are not certain.)
Other Wonders match other nearby battle sites.

Nennius said he used alot of sources which are similar to the ND. The ND has date 395/400s/420/420s/428, and the ND was at Speyer until 15th C/1542/16th C/before 1672. So it is possible that Nennius could have seen/known it.

xi - is "historia".
The title of the HB of Nennius says it is history ("historia"). We have indeed found real geographical matches for the 9 battle sites of Arthur (in names/meanings, natures/details/geographies and numbers/order), though we can't yet prove the final extra archaeological (or records) evidence of battles actually fought there then.

xii - in "(island of) Britain".
The title and text of the Historia Britonum (in which Arthur's 12 battles / 9 battle sites occurs) says it is history of "(the island of) Britain". So Arthur's battles sites must be in Great Britain.

xiii - indirect matches of Bassas & Reculver by both of them matching synonymous or analogous places (/) names of other sources.

Afarnach's Hall of the 'Pa Gur' matches both Bassas & Reculver.
Matches of Afarnach & Bassas:
Both Arthurian battle sites. Both number 3rd/4th of 9. Both match Reculver.
Matches of Afarnach & Reculver:
Hall of Afaranch matches basilica and/or monastery-church of Reculver. Both number 4th of 9; Both match Bassas.

"Baschurch" of local Baschurch tradition matches both Bassas & Reculver.
Matches between Baschurch & Bassas:
Both bas(s). Both Arthurian. Both match Reculver.
Matches between Baschurch & Reculver/Regulbium:
The church of Baschurch matches (the basilica &) the monastery-church (& Bassa the priest) of Reculver [and both link with 'Eglwysau Bassa' "churches of Bassa"]. Both match Bassas.

-----
"Countries that destroy their past deserve no future".
(& governments that poison (fluoridate etc) their citizens water deserve no respect.)


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 20-Jan-2017 at 19:33
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2017 at 23:25

Waste of days/weeks/months/years time and excessive hard work (a-midst bad situation) (and waste of water rations, etc) for nothing? Well at least they can't call me "sloppy" anymore (not that they had a right to in the first place since it was not me but the socio-economic situation, and "laying grievious burdens hard to be bourne on people that they won't even touch with small finger"), and at least no one can call me a bludger since i done years hard work not paid for. I am guessing they will forever use any and every possible excuse to refuse to credit until/unless the remaining final absolute proof comes.

We managed to re-do one more battle site chapter (this one on the city of the legion = Richborough/Rutupi). Thats 3 out of 9 re-done, and 6 out of 9 left to re-do. But i am definitely not able to do anymore in this situation unless they improve my situation or at least stop forcing their fluoridated (etc) tap water on me, and give some positive for what done.

Sorry for repetition again but i had to arrange the chapters the way i have. I am not happy that i had to leave a few things out too (like the metropolis of Padarn, Locrinus/Lucrinum, possible St Patrick connection(s), etc).

(12 battles but) 9 battle sites of Arthur of the HB of "Nennius"
match
9 Saxon Shore sites from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth.
(match
9 battle sites of Arthur of the Pa Gur.)

This map clearly shows our 9 sites matches :
http://2rbetterthan1.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/map-12battleska-9fortsss2.png

The 'city of the legion' the (9th battle but) 6th battle site of Arthur in the HB of Nennius
matches
Richborough/Rutupiae the 5th site of the Saxon Shore & the ND
(matches
Dissethach the 5th battle site of Arthur in the PaGur.)

Quote of the 'city of the legion' part of the 12 battles (but 9 battle sites) of Arthur in the HB of "Nennius":

" Then (it was, that the magnanimous) Arthur(,) fought against {them / the Saxons} {in those days / ,} with (all) the kings (and military force) of (the) Britain(s)(. And though there were many more noble than himself,) but/yet he (himself) was (twelve times chosen) the(ir) leader/commander {of battles / , and was as often conqueror}.

....

[6th site:]
Nonum bellum gestum est in urbe/urbs Legionis.

In nomadcath i cathraig ind Legoin;

The ninth (battle) (was) (fought/waged) in/at (the) City of (the) Legion(s)(, gloss: which (in British) is called Cair Lion)./;

[See also many other Arthurian/"Welsh" sources (DEB/Gildas, EH/Bede, 11 Consuls 'HRB'/Geoff, '24 kings & 33 cities', 'AC'/"WA", Hergest, Ywenec, Beroul) for more details about the Arthurian 'city of (the) Legion(s)' / "Caerleon", such as the Round Table being there, its archbishop Dubricius, St Julius & Alban, etc.]
[See also the City of Lions/Lyonesse.]

....

[And] in all his/these battles/engagements {he / the Britons} proved/were victorious/successful. For no strength can avail against the will of the Almighty.
The more the Saxons were vanquished, the more they sought for new supplies of Saxons from Germany; so that kings, commanders, and military bands were invited over from almost every province. And this practice they continued till the reign of Ida, who was the son of Eoppa, he, of the Saxon race, was the first king in Bernicia, and in Cair Ebrauc (York). "

From the quote above (from the HB of Nennius) we get 13 identification details for the 'city of the legion', and from other Arthurian/Welsh sources we get a further 8+ details for the city of the legion / "Caerleon", giving us 21+ details in all for this (battle) site.

From the HB of Nennius:
i. number/order ("6th" battle site of 9, "9th" battle of 12)
(+ near preceeding & succeeding battle sites)
ii. a "battle" fought there
iii. fought "in/at" there
iv. is a "city/urbe/caer"
v. had a legion [& specifically implied to be the legio ii Augusta?]
vi. name/called 'urbe legionis' "city of the legion"
vii. name/called CairLion
viii. fought by Arthur/Britons
ix. fought against Saxons
x. date (before Ida ["ca 547"], before Badon ["516/554"])
xi. is written in the HB of Nennius (which also has the Wonders of Britain in it).
xii. is "historia"
xiii. is in "(the island of) Britain"

From other sources:
xiv. bishop Dubricius
xv. St Julius
xvi. inaccessable at time of one of the sources writers.
xvii. Arthur's capital
xviii. Round Table was there
ixx. not far from Isneldone/Snowdon
xx. was on the banks of a river like the Usk(e)
xxi. Tremounus.
[xxvii. at land's end by island].

(All the 9 battle sites of Arthur of the HB of Nennius only-best match the 9 Saxon Shore forts from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth, and) the 'city of the legion' the 6th battle site of Arthur only-best matches Richborough/Rutupi in most-all of the 21 identification details given by sources. The only 1/2/3 details that we can't yet totally prove in archaeology (or in non-"unreliable" records) is/are that Arthur &/or the Britons were there (in Kent) then, and that the battle was actually fought there (at Richborough) then, and the definite exact date that the battle was. (It is also adamantly contended by arch-sceptics and arch-critics that we can't definitely prove that Richborough/Rutupiae was called 'city of the legion' in any other sources, though our evidence is otherwise very very strong that this 1 and the other 8 battle sites do match our Saxon Shore sites, and we do give some possible evidences that this site was called city of the legion in other sources.)

Now we give more detailed information explanation of the 21 details of the city of the legion and their matches with our site Richborough/Rutupi.

i. number/order ("6th" battle site of 9, "9th" battle of 12)
(+ near preceeding & succeeding battle sites)

The HB of Nennius has a set of 9 battle sites of Arthur (which match 9 of 10 actual sites from Brancaster to Portsmouth).
The ND has a set of 9 Saxon Shore forts (which match 9 of 10 actual sites from Yarmouth to Portsmouth).
Each and all of "only" 8 of the 9 battle sites of Arthur/Nennius/HB (& actual sites) match each and all of "only" 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore sites of the ND (and actual sites) all in numerical & geographical order (which can not be coincidence) from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth.

The ND(-&-actual) has an "extra" 1st fort that the HB(-&-actual) doesn't; and the ND(-&-actual) doesn't have the 4th site of the HB(-&-actual). The HB(-&-actual) has an "extra" 4th site that ND(-&-actual) doesn't, and the HB(-&-actual) doesn't have the 1st fort of ND(-&-actual).

8 matching HB & SS/ND sites, plus the "extra" 1st SS/ND fort, plus the "extra" 4th HB site, makes 10 actual SS sites from Brancaster to Portsmouth.

The 'city of the legion' the 6th battle site of 9 of the HB matches Richborough/Rutupi the 5th site of 9 of the SS/ND (and both match Dissethach the 5th battle site of 9 of the PG.)

The minor cross-switch match of 5th & 6th sites between HB & SS/ND is confirmed in other sources. (HB is in battles order, SS/ND is in geographical sites order.)

The 'city of the legion' the 6th battle site of Arthur in the HB of Nennius.
Richborough/Rutupiae the 5th site of the Saxon Shore & the ND.
Dissethach the 5th battle site of Arthur in the PaGur.
Gwensteri [6th/9th] battle of Gwallwag (Taliesin)?
Jugein/Vigenis of Legecester 5th of 11 Consuls (HRB).
Leominster 7th/6th (12 Monasteries list).
Lynn Liuan 6th (Wonders).

[Maybe "Arthur" didn't do them all in order because he didn't want the enemy to know which fort/battle was next? Richborough and Dover are pretty close anyway.]

All other locations theories do not have a match of the numbers/order, they only match the 9 HB sites with artificial associations of 9 unnumbered sites, not with an attested list/group of 9 numbered sites like ours.

Of course one could perhaps connect 6th battle site 'city of the legion' with Sextae of York, but there is no 9 sites numbers/order match, and York doesn't match all 21 identification details, and the 9 battle sites of Arthur/Nennius only-best match the 9 Saxon Shore sites.

The 12 battles are 9 battle sites since battles 2-5 were in same 1 site, and "Nennius" lists all 9 in order. Since the first 3 are all rivers, and 2 of the middle 3 are settlements, and the last 2 of the last 3 are mountains/hills, the 9 (3x3) battle sites is considered by some to have possibly been 3 sets of 3 rivers, 3 settlements and 3 hills. [Sites 3 and 4 are switched in some lists.] The middle 3 battle sites #s 4-6 (Celidon or Bassas, Guinnion, Legions) as all settlements matches our 3 sites in Kent (Aylesford or Reculver, Richborough/Rutupi, Dover/Dubris). Compare the "3 renowned cities" of another source?

6th/5th battle site 'city of the legion' / Dissethach is near 3rd/4th site Bassas/Afarnach, & 4th/3rd site Celidon/Celli, & 5th/6th site Guinnion/Eidyn, & 7th site Tribruit. This matches Richborough/Rutupi [city of the legion] is near Reculver/Regulbium [Bassas], Coldrum [Celidon], Dover/Dubris [Guinnion], Lemanis [Tribruit], all of which are in Kent and linked with Canterbury by roads.

The 'City of the Legion' is the site of the 9th battle of Arthur, which might possibly connect with the '9th wave Peryddon' grave of Gwalchmai/Walwin/Gawain. Traditional Arthurian sources say Gawain/Gwalchmai died/buried/skull at Rutupi (or Dover). It might also/alternatively lik with the 9th hour of Caesar's landing?

ii. a "battle" fought there (at city of the legion [Richborough/Rutupi]).

All our evidences are overwhelming that the 9 battle sites of Arthur of the HB of Nennius match the 9 Saxon Shore sites (in names/meanings, natures/details/geographies and numbers/order), and that the 6th battle site the 'city of the legion' matches Richborough/Rutupi. However we can not yet prove archaeologically (or in non-"unreliable" records) that the battles were actually fought there then. We can only give some seeming possible evidences found so far for the battle of 'city of the legion' being fought at Richborough:

Archaeological evidence that battle (of city of the legion) fought there & then may include:
The fort, and visible possible physical traces/marks of battle/s fought there. (Fort is well preserved but has damages that could be from battles.)
[Anglo-Saxon cemetry Sarre? / "Numerous Saxon cemetaries found at Sarre, Ash, Kingston"?]
There is evidence that some of the SS forts were still/again in re/use in Arthurian times.
The SS forts "present a number of archaeological & historical problems".
Supposed absence of evidence is not disproof/proof of anything.

Strategic evidence that battle (of city of the legion) fought there & then may include:
"[those who control the SE have the main power/hold in Britain]"?
There are roads linking our battle sites. Canterbury is at intersection of roads to 3/4/5 of our battle sites.
Saxon Shore is strategic.

Records evidence that battle (of city of the legion) fought there & then may include:
The 12 battles / 9 battle sites of the HB definitely match the 9 Saxon Shore sites (in names/meanings, natures/geographies/details and numbers/order), with the 6th battle site of the city of the legion certainly matching Richborough/Rutupi.
Collingwood said Nennius' words implied that "Arthur was fighting Saxons & specifically Kentishmen".
The battle site of Dissethach of the Pa Gur also seems to match Richborough.
St Martin's church, Canterbury? (Leon Mintz's paper suggested connection between war god Mars/Ares, Martin and Arthur/Merlin. Canterbury is at intersection of roads leading to 3/4/5 of our battle sites.)
It is said that Gawain died in a[nother] battle at Rutupi (or Dover). (Meaning another battle at the same site.)

The eclipse & calends of Martii 538 entry of the ASC & Ethelwerd might be connected with the battle of Guinnion at Dover (St Martin le Grand) (compare the "great victory of Arthur against the Saxons on St David's (birth)day [1st March] 540 or 640), and the eclkipse and calends of Julius 540 might match the battle of the 'city of the legion' (St Julius) at Richborough/Rutupi (Julius Caesar). (The exact same date of # days before the calends of July is in the '3 solemnities of Padarn' and also seems to match the 'city of the legion'.)

The battle of Liganburh 571 (ASC/Ethelwerd) might be a later battle at the same site. (The 571 sites were hitherto supposed to be in Bedord/Buckinghamshire, but some doubt this. 3 of the 571 sites names match 3 battle sites of Arthur of the HB (Bassas, Legions, Guinnion), and from this and from other ASC entries it seems possible that they may match our sites in Kent and be later Saxon re/takings of our battle sites?)

Records or/and archaeology:
"510-555 emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent".
"British strategy seems to have been to allow Saxon landings and to then contain them, there."
"488-547 only landings of Saxons on the coast". (Another source says Saxons/battles "were largely limited to the coast", though at abit earlier date.)

Other scholars opinions:
Professor Fields suggested that Arthur  "led the armies of the British kings up and down the eastern coast fending off English settlers." (They may mean the east coast further-up than us, but it still agrees with our sites from Yarmouth [Glein] to Dover [Guinnion].)
Charles P suggests that "Arthur's war in England was fought in Kent and the East Midlands, perhaps as far north as Lincolnshire, but not in the West Country."

The earlier battle of the 'city of the legion' of Arthur of the HB can not be same as the later battle of Chester as some assert, because different date, different leader, different enemy, different outcome, etc. [Chronicle of Werburgh not mention battle or city of the legion?] The later battle wouldhave been copied from the earlier.

The 3 orthodox 'city of the legion' candidates (Caerleon, Chester, York) are not strategic. Caerleon is ridiculously too far west (unless Arthur was fighting Irish or other Britons/Welsh). Chester is surely too far west, and probably to far north (if Arthur was fighting Saxons). York is probably too far north (if Arthur was fighting Saxons, unless he was fighting Angles or Scots or Picts).
"there were no Saxons [at] Caerleon, none near Chester or in [the] North in Arthur's time [except Angles in Forth of Firth]" (Evans).
["Not source before Geoff of Monmouth says that Arthur fought Scots/Picts"?]
Orthodox sources say that the Britons/Welsh weren't limited to Cornwall & Wales & North until after Dyrham (577) & "Chester" (early 600s).
A source says "indefensible plain" about Caerleon / Gwent.

iii. fought "in/at" there.

Arthur's 9th battle (6th battle site) was fought "in/at" the city of the legion. I am not yet sure of the exact correct match for this at Richborough/Rutupi, but it surely has possible matches.

iv. a city/urbe

The HB of Nennius says that this 6th battle site was a "city/urbe". This matches our site Richborough/Rutupiae as seen by these examples:
- Rutupiae/Richborough fort was earlier/later a "civil(ian settlement) and commercial town".
- Bede's EH has "the city of Rutupi portus".
- "in Orosius and the 'Commenta Lucani' Rutupiae is called civitas, and elsewhere orbs (Mai Class. auct. vii, 578)." Note that "orbs" is the exact same word as "urbe/urb/urbs" of the HB of Nennius.
- Ptolemy, writing in the second century, names Rutupiae, London and Daruernum (Canterbury) as the ‘towns‘ of the Cantii.
- "City/urbs" might also match the "borough" of Rich-borough?
- Rhutupis/Richborough was a "metropolis", and "... the British towns Rhutupis, ....", and "Rhutupis Colonia"? ("Richard of Cirencester"/"Bertram".)
- "there is evidence of a large Roman population here [Richborough] in the early 5th century...."
- The 2 or 3 middle battles sites of Arthur of the HB as all settlements matches Kent.

[- the “city” Liganburh of the 571 ASC & Ethelwerd entry may also match the 'city of the legion' & Richborough. (See below.)]

(Also compare the 'dwellings of Dissethach' (Pa Gur) which appears to match both Richborough / Rutupi (SS/ND) and the 'city of the legion' (HB).)

Some scathing critics smartly counter-asserted that the ancients/medievals distinguished between forts and cities, but aside from our evidence above (and below), perhaps also compare that "The Ravenna geographer (432, 7) calls all the forts of the Roman Wall civitates"?

[Also, although about something different, a note in Old English Chronicles says "Urbs, "city," seems here rather to designate country or territory." This can also fit the Richborough/Rutupi area, and certain synonymous matching sites of Arthurian sources. There is also a brief note in my file of "urbem/arcem" without any details.]

Regarding other claimed 'city of the legion' candidates, some point out that the 'urbs' "city" of 'urbs legionis' "city of the legion" of Nennius/Gildas is different to 'castrum'/'cair' of Chester, and 'cair' of Caerleon. (Though others say that urbs and cair are interchangeable synonyms.)

v. a legion [& specifically implied to be the legio ii Augusta?]

The 6th battle site of Arthur is called the "city of the legion" (singular) in the HB of Nennius (and is called "(city of) legions" ((genitive) plural) in the HRB of Geoff of Monmouth)". So there was a legion or were legions at the place at sometime. (Also, the 'city of the legion' being interchanged with "Caerleon" maybe implies that the legion was the legio ii Augusta?)

Orthodox academic Arthurians assert that there were only 3 legionary bases in Britain, and that the 'city of the legion' can and must only be one of these 3. However there were legions at other places in the history of Roman Britain, including at Rutupi/Richborough, as can be seen by this timeline of Roman legions and/or cities of the legion in Britain:

917bc Caer Lleon on Dee
401bc Caer Lleon on Usk
60/61 [Menai] massacre 9th legion
68 Lindum/Lincoln, Virconium/Wroxeter, Glevum/Gloucester;
75ad legion Gloucester
80 Eboracum/York, Virconium/Wroxeter, DV/Chester, IS/Caerleon;
180 Eboracum/York, DV/Chester, IS/Caerleon;
[277-285 Rutupi built;]
[305 Rutupiae (ND?)]
395/400s/420/420s/428 the ND (which has legio ii Augusta at Rutupiae).
407 Constantine 3 withdraws legio ii Augusta to Gaul;
by ear 5th cent forces from Caerleon transferred to Cardiff;
[501 Ebur [York] died]
536 legion Britons Loire (St Dalmas)?
571 Liganburh/Lygeanburg
601/602 synod urbis legionum/ligionis / "Chester" (AC);
607/613/616 battle Caerlegion/Legecester/Chester
655 "30 legions"
800ad Caerleon referred to as CairLegeion guar Uisc
894 Legaceaster
973 city of legions
1653 "city of legion" inscription Chester

8 of the 9 battle sites of the HB match 8 of the 9 SS forts of the ND (in names/meanings, natures/geographies/details & in numbers/order), with the 6th battle site the 'city of the legion' matching the 5th SS site Richborough/Rutupi which has match(es) for (the) legion(s):
- There was a legion (legio ii Augusta) at Rutupi/Richborough SS fort in the ND.
- Rutupi/Richborough is "traditionally the place where the four invading legions mustered for the Claudian invasion of Britain"? (Though this is disputed by some recently.)

Some arch-critics try to counter claim that Richborough was not the legio ii Augusta's "main base", and/or that the legion wasn't there in Arthur's time. However, these have possible answers. There is no reason why our 'city of the legion' site Richborough has to be their main base. The HB's 'city of the legion' wording doesn't necessarily indicate when the legion was there? The ND of ca 395/400s/420/420s/428 has the "legio ii Augusta" at "Rutupiae" (Richborough). The legio ii Augusta went from Caerleon to Rutupi/Richborough, which means the latter is closer date to Arthur than the former. (It is also said that forces abandoned Caerleon for Cardiff.) The Saxon Shore was active in time of Theodosius not long before Arthur.

I saw somewhere something about "Carmarthen / (city of the) 1000(0) (soldiers)", which might be connected with the 'city of the legion'. [Maybe compare "David bishop of Merlin's town Caerleon"? Taliesin's 1000 sons? Arthur slew 960/940 at Badon.] This too may match our site Richborough/Rutupi. I think i saw somewhere that Rutupi/Richborugh had not more than perhaps 1000 men? "Legio 2nd Britannica ... just 1,000 strong by then [ear 5th cent]"; "the II Augusta had reduced alot [to 1/10th]".

The Chester and York 'city of the legion' candidates of others had a different legion to the legio ii Augusta that is implied by "Caerleon (on Usk".

vi. name/called 'city of the legion'.

The 6th battle site of Arthur is called 'urbs legionis' "city of the legion". We have shown that Richborough was a city/urbs, and had a legion, but arch-sceptics & arch-critics demand that we also have to show that it was also called "city of the legion" in other sources. We have not yet found any definite non-"unreliable" sources examples yet, but we do so far have a few possible evidences that Richborough was called "city of the legion":

- Urbe Legionis ('HB' of "Nennius"), which definitely matches Richborough/Rutupi.
- Leg(e)ceastre ('Pa Halgan' / 'Kentish Royal Legend')?
- The 'city of Lions/Lyonesse' "between Land's End / Cornwall and Scilly"  in the south-west is analogously similar to our 'city of the legion' candidate Richborough/Rutupi in the Wantsum-Stour area between Kent and Thanet in the south-east.
- Lygeanburg/Liganburh (571, ASC/Ethelwerd) might be our 'city of the legion' and Richborough. The 571 sites were hitherto supposed to be in Bedord/Buckinghamshire, but some doubt this. 3 of the 571 sites names match 3 battle sites of Arthur of the HB (Bassas, Legions, Guinnion), and from this and from other ASC entries it seems possible that they may match our sites in Kent?

(Some versions of Watling Street have Richborough (our 'city of the legion' ste) and Chester (traditional/orthodox 'city of the legion' candidate) at either end.)

[Caerleon in the west is maybe analogous to Richborough in the east?]

All our evidences are overwhelming that the 9 battle sites of Arthur of the HB of Nennius match the 9 Saxon Shore sites, and that the 'city of the legion' matches Richborough/Rutupi. However some viciously mean/nasty arch-critics sometimes demand that we have to also disprove others candidates and not just prove ours. There are alot of "possible" candidates for 'city of the legion' that others have hitherto suggested for the 'city of the legion' (including Chester, Caerleon, York, Carlisle, Exeter, Portchester, Richborough, Carhaix, Dumbarton, Trimontium). It is unreasonible for us to have to disprove them all, because there are too many. (Our sites proofs by its nature disproves the others anyway.) There are only 2 (or 3) major orthodox candidates versus ours: Caerleon, Chester, (York). "York was not ever called 'city of the legion'". York and "Legions" are both mentioned together separately (as distinct) in same Arthurian source(s).
Urbs Legionis of Arthur of the HB can not be Caerleon or Chester because (they don't match all the 21 identification details, and) because:
The 2 'Welsh Annals' synod of 'urbs legionum' "city of the legion" 601/602 and battle of 'caer legion' "city of the legion" 613/614 entries are clearly different sites.
The 'urbs legionis' "city of the legion" in the 12 battles is also different to those in Nennius' cities of Britain list (Cairlion/"Caerleon" & Cairligion/"Chester").
"Nennius" didn't say "on Usk".
"How Deva came to be the name of Chester or the Castra Legionis (whence the Welsh Caer Lleon) is not clear".
They can't even decide or prove which of the two (Chester or Caerleon) it is (and they say they are superior scholars to me) (though they seem to favour Chester).
"Caerleon on Usk" might imply an earlier Caerleon not on the Usk (not necessarily Chester)?
Was Caerleon called that before 800 ad?


vii. name/called CairLion.

Some versions of the 'city of the legion' part of the 12 battles of Arthur section of the HB of Nennius say "... the city of the legion, which (in British) is called Car Lion." The Car-Lion part is in some versions but not in other versions. How does this match our 'city of the legion' site Richborough/Rutupi? Either:

(1) this is only a late(r) gloss/addition and so can be ignored. (Though I have not been able to check yet whether the versions that don't have the Car-Lion part are older than the versions that do.)

(2) the Car-Lion may match that the Legio ii Augusta at Richborough was "from Caerleon" / "formerly at Caerleon".

viii. fought by Arthur/Britons.

All our evidence is overwhelming that the 9 battle sites of Arthur match the 9 Saxon Shore sites (in names/meanings, natures/details/geographies and numbers/order). However, the orthodox establishment still adamantly claim that the south-east quarter was too heavily Anglo-Saxon then. We can't yet totally prove archaeologically (or in non-"unreliable" records) that the south-east was not all Anglo-Saxon, and that Arthur & the Britons were there in Kent then. Some recent scholars are disputing the south-east all Anglo-Saxon claim, and recent sources admit that the true Saxon/Briton situation then is far from certain/clear. The dates of the 12 battles are also uncertain. We can only give some seeming possible evidences that we have found/collated so far that suggest that the south-east wasn't only all Saxon, and/or that suggest that there were some Britons there then at sometime:

- The 9 battle sites of Arthur certainly match the 9 SS sites in names/meanings, details/geographies/natures and numbers/order.
- "Arthur" fought the (West) Saxons who were mainly in the south-east quarter. (He is said to have fought Cerdic & Colgrin & Baldulph.)
- Traditional Arthurian stories/histories mention south/southeast/east places including: London, [Raculf/Riculf?], Chislehurst caves, Rutupi/Richborough (where "Gawain" died), Dover, Winchelsea, Gaul/France, North Sea, Kit's Coty, Canterbury?
Malory "moved Arthur to London".
The Modena Archivolt seems to show Dover lighthouse &/or castro?
One source locates Vortimer's cenotaph at Richborough.
- Arthurian/Welsh sources mention names that are possibly similar to Rutupi/red-top/Richborough &/or Reculver (including Rico/Ridoc/Richiden, Ricaradoch, the Round Table, Riculf/Raculf, Rocabarraigh, Liganburh?)
- There seem to be quite a few places in Welsh/Cornish/Northern that are analogous to our south-east battle sites (in names &/or geographies), e.g. Dumbarton is similar to Dover [& Guinnion].
- The Britons/Welsh weren't limited to Cornwall & Wales & North until after Dyrham (577) and "Chester" (ear 600s).
- Arthurian sources say Arthur drove the Saxons out of Britain.

"Mari Lwyd (St Mary) in Caerleon similar to Hoodening in Padstow (Petroc's, Cornwall), & in Kent, & in Cheshire." This links 3 'city of the legion' candidates of others and ours.

Wheeler's (& Deniker's) London-Colchester-St Albans triangle gap/salient (of Britons in Anglo-Saxon south-east quarter).
["Wurdesten speaks of the Britons leaving their ancestral land when the Saxons occupied it"?]
- Gildas says "neither to this day are our cities inhabited .. . forsaken & overthrown".

- Some place names in Kent are disputed as to whether Saxon or  British/Celtic origins. - Kent & Canterbury are Celtic names.
- "few/little or no Saxon cemetaries in Canterbury"
- the Medway river marked the boundary of Britons & Saxons (though at earlier date)?
- the British St Martin's church Canterbury?
- The Weald may have been like refuge for Britons.
[- (Uther &/or) "Arthur" could possibly be the pre-Augustine Christian "Ethelbert" of ASC?]

On the SS forts  "There has been no consensus amongst those who write about the transition from the Romans to the Anglo-Saxons."
The SS forts "present a number of archaeological & historical problems".
"it is insisted that they [Saxons] avoided the Roman towns & forts"?
"Anderida/Pevensey being taken by Aelle is the only record of a [Roman/SS] fort being taken by the Anglo-Saxons".
"British strategy seems to have been to allow Saxon landings and to then contain them, there."

"Even in Kent, an area of rich early Anglo-Saxon archaeology, the number of excavated settlements is fewer than expected. However in contrast the counties of Northamptonshire, Oxfordshire, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire are relative rich in early settlements."
"Kenneth Dark's argument for continuing British military and political power in the east rests on the very uneven distribution of Anglo-Saxon cemeteries and the proposition that large gaps in that distribution necessarily represent strong British polities which excluded Anglo-Saxon settlers by force."
"It is by no means impossible that some of the Kentish distinctions are based in part on Romano-British influence.... It is difficult in any other manner to account for the fact that Kent alone preserved a resemblance to its Roman past.... ... may hold a memory of pre-Saxon agricultural arrangements ... due to the presence of peasants of Romano-British descent...."
"... existence of another culture which was as early, much lower and quite different ... in north Kent and Surrey."

- Some suggest 2 groups of settlers [in Kent]: 1st Anglo-Saxon, 2nd Franks "who broke the dynasty of Kentish kings ... of which we hear no more after 512"?]

(The "Picts" of the later Liber Floridus version of St Omer is too long to discuss here. Suffice to say that either (1) we are wrong, or (2) St Omer is Wrong, or (3) the name "Picts" doesn't refer to the assumed Picts of north Scotland. We are certainly not wrong that the 9 battle sites of Arthur match the 9 Saxon Shore sites. St Omer could certainly be wrong. (Note: compare 'dux bellorum' (HB), 'dux Pictorum' (LF), 'dux britanniarum' (ND?).) It is a contradition that some sources say Arthur fought the Picts, some say he was Pictish. There is certainly evidences suggesting that "Picts" (and "Caledonian") can refer to other Britons. ....)

There are reasons for thinking that Arthur may possibly be Aurelius/Ambrosius who was Roman-blooded. The Romans were mainly in the south-east quarter of Britain. In contrast, the traditional/orthodox 'city of the legion' candidate Chester is in the unromanised region of Britain not in the Romanised region of Britain in the map "Post-Roman Britain (Anglo-Saxon Cemeteries) (based on Jones & Mattingly's Atlas of Roman Britain)".

Regarding the 'city of the legion' claimed candidate York of others, the "bishop Sanxo of York" (HRB) might imply that York was Saxon not British?

ix. fought against Saxons

Who was "(King) Arthur" fighting? Of the 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 people of Britian listed by early chroniclers (Picts, Britons, Scots/Irish, Saxons/English, (Romans/Latin,) (Welsh)), Arthur is supposed to have been (Roman &/or) British/Welsh (or "Pictish"), and he can only have been fighting either/both the Anglo-Saxons, and/or the Scots/Irish & Picts. It is said that the Saxons seem to have done their job well fighting the Scots & Picts.

Arthur is clearly said to have fought 12 battles (which includes the city of the legion) against the "Saxons". (Compare "Wurdesten speaks of the Britons leaving their ancestral land when the Saxons occupied it".) ["Not source before Geoff of Monmouth says that Arthur fought Scots/Picts"?]
 This does match our site Richborough's area.

"Saxon(s)" can mean either Anglo Saxons, or (West/South/East/Middle) Saxons (ie Wessex/Sussex/Essex/Middlesex). (Ethelwerd is reckoned to confound Saxons & Angles.)
Hengist's advisor Ceretic?
It is said that Collingwood said Nennius words specifically implied Saxons and specifically of Kentishmen.
The "Saxon Shore" (from Wash/Norfolk to Hampshire/Solent/Wight).
"Numerous Saxon cemetaries found at Sarre, Ash, Kingston"?
Orthodox Arthurian sources agree that the Anglo-Saxons were at that time mainly in the south-east quarter of England/Britain, and that the (West) Saxons were in the south of England/Britain.
Some think that Cerdicshore (1) of the ASC was at Great Yarmouth, which would have West Saxons ranging from Norfolk to Hampshire.
Geoff of Monmouth's HRB said the Saxons went from "Lincoln"/"Caledon" around to "Severn"/"Totness"/"Bath"/"south".
(West) Saxons versus "Ethelbert" of Kent at "Wimbledon" (in the ASC) has (West) Saxons not far from Kent. We have shown elsewhere here that 3 of the sites of the 571 ASC entry may match 3 our battle sites in Kent?

"From Germany" implies on the east coast [and maybe Saxon Shore].
"From every province" implies to every province (Angles, Jutes, Saxons).

For other locations candidates it has been pointed out that "there were no Saxons [at] Caerleon, none near Chester or in [the] North in Arthur's time [except Angles in Forth of Firth]" (Evans).

x. date (before Ida ["ca 547"], before Badon ["516/554"])

We can't yet be totally certain of the exact right date match for the battle of the 'city of the legion' with/in the history of Richborough/Rutupiae.

HB says the 12 battles of Arthur were down to time of Ida (who orthodox date ca 547), and the battle of the 'city of the legion' was before Badon ("516/554").
Arthur fought the (West) Saxons (Cerdic, Colgrin, Baldulph).

"who broke the dynasty of Kentish kings ... of which we hear no more after 512"?
"510-555 emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent".
"488-547 only landings of Saxons on the coast".
Gap between the 1st & 2nd Bretwaldas (Aelle of Sussex & Ceawlin of Wessex) c 491 - c 560?
No gains gap 519 - 552 in ASC?

The eclipse before the calends of Julius 540 might be connected with the battle of the 'city of the legion' (St Julius) and Richborough (Julius Caesar).

(Possible sequence:
3 Bassas/Reculver ~ Cerdiesford/Avene 519?
4 Celidon/Weald ~ Cerdicsleaga 527 or Calcedonensis 538?
5 Guinnion/Dover ~ Cerdic dies 534, or Martii 538 &  Martianus 538?
6 Legions/Richborough ~ Julius 540?)

Liganburh 571 may be a later Saxon re/taking of our 'city of the legion' site Richborough (we have already explained why above).

xi. is written in the HB of Nennius (which also has the Wonders of Britain in it).

How much evidence is there that "Nennius" or the writer of the HB (in which are the 12 battles / 9 battle sites of Arthur) or his source knew the Kent area (where we found 5 of the 9 battle sites of Arthur)?

The authorship and date of writing of the HB (in which the 12 battles of Arthur (including Bassas) are) is uncertainly disputed.

Orthodox sources claim that "Nennius" lived in Wales/West, but i haven't seen any serious proof of this. Asser mentioned that Nennius was reputed to have been at "Oxford". In Arthurian/Welsh "Oxford" might really be Reculver [Bassas] by the Wantsum-Stour.

Boso of Ridoc/Rico/Richiden/Rhydycheu/"Oxford" (11 Consuls, HRB).
Bassas [may mean "shallow"/"ford"] (12 battles, HB).
Swelling ford/shallows (Wonders, HB).
Episford/Ebissa (...).
[Bosphorus (analogous).]

Collingwood said Nennius' words imply Arthur was fighting specifically Kentishmen.
We first discovered that the 9 battle sites of Arthur in the HB of "Nennius" definitely match the 9 Saxon Shore sites. Later on we happened to also discover that the Wonders of Britain (which are also in the HB of "Nennius) also match the same 9 sites (and some of them are very stark matches). In hindsight it looks obvious that "Nennius" would write the Wonders about the same sites. Surely the fact that both the 9 battle sites and the Wonders match the 9 SS sites means that our case is pretty strong.

The Wonders of Britain which do or may match Richborough [city of the legion] are:
- Linn Liuan (ebbs, army, former rustic) seems to match the Ebbsfleet/Sandwich/Richborough [city of the legion] area. The 12 Monasteries list confirms that Lann Llieni is nearby "Leomister". There is also a Linn Liuan near Caerleon which also confirms the association. The fastness/dwellings of Dissethach in the Pa Gur maybe also links all 3 of Linn Liuan, city of the legion, and Richborough? Also may match "Gawain/Gwalchmai died/grave/skull at 9th wave Peryddon or Rutupi (or Dover)".
- The Returning Plank.
- Cruc Mawr matches the large cruciform platform at Richborough (combined with the christian cross).
[- Limpets of Ceoil may be oysters at Richborough or Reculver?]
- The Circling Rock/Mountain seems to be something at either Richborough [city of the legion] or Dover [Guinnion].
It doesn't seem to us coincidence that the 4 Wonders which we had found to seemingly certainly match Richborough/Rutupi [city of the legion] (nos 6, 11, 14, 22/29) also happen to be the 4 wonders that are omitted in the Irish HB.
See our separate Wonders paper and tables for more details.

Nennius said he used alot of sources which are similar to the ND. The ND has date 395/400s/420/420s/428, and the ND was at Speyer until 15th C/1542/16th C/before 1672. So it is possible that Nennius could have seen/known it.

xii. is "historia"
The title of the HB of Nennius says it is history ("historia"). We have indeed found real geographical matches for the 9 battle sites of Arthur (in names/meanings, natures/details/geographies and numbers/order), though we can't yet prove the final extra archaeological (or records) evidence of battles actually fought there then.

xiii. is in "(the island of) Britain"
The title and text of the Historia Britonum (in which Arthur's 12 battles / 9 battle sites occurs) says it is history of "(the island of) Britain". So Arthur's battles sites must be in Great Britain.
(The "Britannia Minor" of one source will have some explanation, perhaps it could mean a minor part of Britain like Kent/Weald/Downs?)

xiv. bishop Dubricius.

The city of the legion of Arthur's 12 battles in the HB of Nennius is connected with the (arch)bishop/saint "Dyfrig/Dubricius of (city of) Legions" in the HRB of Geoff of Monmouth. Death of Kentigern & Dyfrig/Dubricius 612 (AC) immediately before battle of Caerlegion/"Chester" 613 (AC)?
"Dubricius of Legions" implies and matches that the city of the legion [Richborough/Rutupi] is near Dolobellue, or Dubris/Dover/Dour [Guinnion], or Dorobernia/Durovernum (Canterbury), or Durobrivae (Rochester), [or DuoRig Habren?] (Confirmed by Dubriactus in Taliesin?)
Kentigern (aka Mungo) could connect with Kent &/or Catigern / 'Kit's Coty'?

York can't be the 'city of the legion'. They had different bishops (Dubricius and Sanxo).

xv. St Julius.

St Julius & St Aaron were 'legionum urbis cives' "citizens of the city of legions" in the DEB of Gildas and the EH of Bede and the HRB of Geoff of Monmouth. (A tradition also says they "were martyred in the Roman amphitheatre [of the 'city of the legion' candidate Chester supposedly] which is situated right next to / just outside the church and that there are links with the church / it was believed that their bodies were buried beneath the [St John Baptist] church itself".) The date of Julius & Aaron is the 1st of July. Our city of the legion site Richborough/Rutupi has matches for all this.

St Julius may connect with Julius Caesar who landed at/near Dover/Deal/Richborough. [Also possibly compare Julliberies grave?] We thus have an explanation for the origin of St Julius which other 'city of the legion' candidates don't have.

St Aaron might conect with Avalon/Avaron/Afallach and Afarnach which we show elsewhere may match Reculver [Bassas]. And/or Aaron might link with Androgeus/Andragius/Androgorius/Mandubracius (vs Caesar)?

Julius & Aaron were associated with St Alban. "St Alban('s)" matches Dover (Albion) & Guinnion (white). (One source says Albion is thought to come from 1st Christian/martyr St Alban/Albion. St Alban is connected with Germanus who was surely in the south-east.) The [grave of] martyr St Alban (283, 304, 429)  may also/alternatively be connected with the grave of Labienus (of Caesar's landing) and the grave of Gawain/Gwalchmai at Rutupi; And/or St Alban might be linked with Clodius Albinus? (There is also the later Albinus Abbot of St Augustine's, Canterbury?) Perhaps also compare Rutupiae built 277-285, and St Alban martyr 283?

Also associated with Julius & Aaron is St Amphibalus ("cloak"?) who might link with either Richborough (Nero? amphitheatre? amphibian invasion of Caesar/Claudius? Androgeus?), or with Dover.  (Amphibalus is also in Winchester, while the Arthurian "Winchester"/Guintonhi is Guinnion/Dover.)

There is an amphitheatre and church at Richborough/Rutupi. The "church of Julius" might be the building over the large cruciform platform which might be grave/cenotaph of Labienus?
The earliest/first christians/saints were surely in the south-east.

Some still adamantly claim the city of the legion is more likely Chester. However the traditional Julius and Aaron connection with Chester (amphitheatre/church) has been found to be weak (or no proof). Both of the traditional/orthodox 'city of the legion' candidates Chester & Caerleon have traditional Julius & Aaron claims, but Julius & Aaron can't be in two places at sametime.

xvi. inaccessable/deserted/waste:

"Gildas says that Christians are cut off from the martyr shrine of Julius and Aaron in the context of diuortium." "Gildas clearly states that this place [city of the legion] is unacessable to British people. If this was Chester it would hardly be unacessable."
"Gildas clearly was stating that the holy shrines in the East were out of reach and in territory controlled by Saxons. Roger of Wendover, in his Flores Historiarum, tells us that the shrine or church at St Albans was destroyed by pagan Anglo-Saxon invaders."
[Furthermore, Gildas also says "neither to this day are our cities inhabited .. . forsaken & overthrown".]

(This may also possibly connect with the 4 Wonders of Britain which we discovered to match Richborough [city of the legion] and which are all omitted in the Irish HB?)

This doesn't match the 2 main orthodox 'city of the legion' candidates Chester and Caerleon. (Though some sources call Chester "waste Chester" (rather than West Chester). It does match our 'city of the legion' site Richborough/Rutupi.

xvii. Arthur's capital.

The 'city of the legion' / '(city of) Legions' / "Caerleon" was : "Arthur's capital", “2nd Rome. … chief city of the isle of britain … priveleges & rank … principal Archbishop….”, and “loved & honored Caerleon on the Usk more than any other place”,  [and it is said that Caer Lleon and Jerusalem were built about the same time.]

Matches:

Rutupi/Richborough was "their primary station", "became the metropolis", "fleet which commanded the North Sea", "was of such celebrity that...", "was the station of the 2nd Augustan legion, under the count of the Saxon coast, a person of high distinction", "the primary station of the Romans in Britainnia...", "Watling Street proceeded from Richborough".
Richborough/Rutupi is one of the best preserved Roman sites in Britain (ref J Hawkes). (Thanet also had a name that is similar looking/sounding to "Rome"?)

Matches:

Gwensteri key to Lloegyr of Gwallawg in Taliesin.

xviii. Round Table was there.

Some traditional Arthurian sources say that the Round Table was at the 'city of the legion' / 'city of legions' / "Caerleon". The RT is traditionally connected with the amphitheatre of Caerleon, and is connected in [tradition or modern news] with the amphtheatre of Chester, and both of these cities are also 'city of the legion' candidates of others. Our 'city of the legion' site Richborough/Rutupi has a seeming match for the RT.

The round table may possibly match the amphitheatre at Richborough, which is seen in aerial photo as a large flat circle feature  in farm fields neighbouring the Richborough fort and which described in book as being "visible as a hummock in the grass 5 minutes walks from the main site".
[The RT might also/alternatively connect with the name of Rutupi meaning "red top"? (Though the red refers to salt.)]

(Orthodox academic Arthurians dismiss the Round Table as an invention of Wace because it appears that the RT is first mentioned by Wace. However, they can not prove that Wace made it up, and we have found that the RT may possibly be connected with some earlier things like the Circling Rock/Mountain of the Wonders of Britain, plus the coincidental connection with the amphitheatres is possibly interesting. The RT is variously either a (stationary or moving) table-like item, or a ... structure/building, or an amphitheatre, or a circle of [12] people, or a tournament event.)

The Round Table may be something at either/both the 'city of the legion'/Richborough and/or 'castellum Guinnion'/Dover.
Other traditional Arthurian/Welsh sources locate the Round Table at the "castle of Snowdon/Isneldone" or "castle of Windsor" which matches castellum Guinnion and Dover.

The 'circling rock/mountain' of the Wonders may match the 'round table' (which "rotates like the world"), and the 'circling rock/mountain' may match something at Dover [Guinnion] and/or at Richborough [city of the legion]. (We found that the Irish HB omits the 4 wonders (including the 'circling rock/mountain') which we had connected with Richborough/'city of the legion'.)

ixx. not far from Isneldone/Snowdon.

Arthur's 6th battle site the 'city of the legion' is also called Cair Lion in some versions of the HB of Nennius. The city of the legion is interchanged with "Caerleon" in some traditional Arthurian/Welsh sources. In an Arthurian source Cuerlion is not far from the castle of Isneldone/Snowdon. This can't be Caerleon on Usk in South Wales and Snowdon in North Wales as they are not all that close. However this could match our 9 battle sites in the Saxon Shore scenario. The castle of Snowdon ("snow hill") matches castellum Guinnion ("white") and Dover/Albion (white cliffs, chalk Downs), and is not far from our 'city of the legion' at Richborough. (There is also a Snowdown in Kent not far from Dover & Richborough. "Snowdon West" of some Arthurian sources implies a Snowdon east? Some versions of Watling Street have Dover at one end, and Segontium near Snowdon at the other end.) The "3 renowned cities" of a Snowdon source may match our Richborough ['city of the legion'], Dover [Guinnion] and Reculver [Bassas] (or else the Rutupiae, London and Daruernum (Canterbury) of Ptolemy?)

xx. on the banks of a river like the Usk(e)

The 'city of the legion' or '(city of) legions' is interchanged with "Caerleon (upon Usk)" in & between some traditional Arthurian sources. This may imply that the city of the legion was on a river like the "Usk(e). Our 'city of the legion' site Richborough/Rutupi is on the river Stour, which may match "upon Usk(e)". (We can't prove yet whether the Britions called the Stour "Usk(e)" (or used "Usk(e)" for the Stour), or whether it is just an analogous match.)

xxi. Tremounus.

The 'city of the legion' of the HB of Nennius is connected with 'Tremounus of Legions' of the HRB of Geoff of Monmouth. Adam Ardrey connects the city of the legion with Trimontium (~ Melrose/Meilros) which was the capital of Scotland during the Roman occupation in the 1st & 2nd centuries. The 9 battle sites definitely match the 9 Saxon Shore forts (and not sites in Scotland) though, so the Scottish Trimontium can only be an analogous namesake or a cleverly tied-in connection. We have a possible match for Tremounus at our 'city of the legion' site Richborough/Rutupi with either:
- Triputienses of German inscriptions refering to Rutupiae/Rhutupian/Rhutupine.
- Trinovantum "London" &/or the Trinovantes not far from Richborough/Kent.
- Tremounus/Trimontium could connect with either Cruc Mawr [at Richborough], or with the Circling Rock/Mountain (turns 3 times) [at either Richborough or Dover].
Stow/Wedale 6 miles west of Meilros is maybe analogous to Reculver # miles nw of Richborough [city of the legion].

Melrose/Meilros (meaning "yellow" / "bare headland/promontory/moor(land)" / "wood") & Rhos of Arthurian/Welsh connect with our n.e. Kent area. "Wedale 6 miles west of Meilros" may be analogous to Reculver # miles n.w. of Richborough?

xxii. David & Merlin connections.

David is archbishop of (city of) Legions at Menevia in the HRB. Another source says "David bishop of Merlin's town Caerleon"?

The 'city of the legion' / '(city of) Legions' / "Caerleon" is Richborough/Rutupi (legio ii Augusta) in Kent in the South-East. Merlin and David both have connections with our south-east area.

[Will re-add in here the list of David connections and list of Merlin connections when i am able to.]

xxiii. Augustine, Germanus, Paulinus connections.

The "city of the Legion" (602/607 AC) is connected with St Augustine synod at "Chester" / "Augustine's Ac/Oak on borders of the Wiccii & West Saxons" (603, Bede). This seems dubious to me. Augustine is connected with the Ebbsfleet area near our 'city of the legion' site Richborough, and he probably did not reach as far north & west as Chester (though Ethelbert did extend his sphere to Humber).  (There might possibly also be a conflation of Augustine and legio ii Augusta of Richborough, and/or Augusta/London?)

St Pol/Paulinus Aurelianus/Uurmonocus de Leon in Breton tradition seems to imply a connection of the 'city of the legion' with Paulinus. (Zoetropo's 'city of the legion' candidate is Carhaix of the Prince of Leon in Brittany. Gwenedeg/Vannes, Leon, and Tregor of Breton seem analogous to Guinnion, Legions and Tribruit?) This might have a match with our 'city of the legion' site Richborough. Paulinus was in Northumbria but was also in Kent. (There is also the Pavloc of Sutton Hoo in Suffolk?)

Germanus' battle was supposedly at Maes Garmon near Mold near the traditional/orthodox 'city of the legion' candidate Chester. This may possibly mean that the 'city of the legion' is closely connected with Germanus? The Maes Garmon location is very dubious. Germanus was surely more likely in the south-east. It is interesting that Germanus has link with St Alban who can only be in the Dover (Albion) & Downs area.

xxiv. Jerusalem.

Caer Lleon and "Jerusalem" were built about the same time (ref '24 kings & 33 cities') implying that either it is "Jerusalem" or it was close to a "Jerusalem" site. It appears that "Jerusalem" is 'Uerolamiensem/Verulam' / "St Alban's" (Gildas) which is probably Dover (Albion) and Guinnion ("white").

[xxv. Bangor?]

The traditional/orthodox 'city of the legion' candidate Chester is "just down the road from Bangor". It is possible that this may be analogous to the real 'city of the legion' which is certainly Richborough/Rutupiae. Bangor and abbey may possibly analogously match Reculver and its monastery-church which we connect with Arthur's grave and Avalon (see chapter on battle site of Bassas/Reculver).

xxvi. had a church or churches, or a minster (and/or a monastery?).

The 'city of the legion' had a church (of St Julius).
The city of Lions/Lyonesse had "140 churches".
Leominister of the 12 Monasteries list seems to analogously match the 'city of the legion' of the 12 battles of Arthur.
Camelot had a church of St Stephen, and we show elsewhere that Camelot seems to match our 'city of the legion' site Richborough. ("Many towered Camelot" is maybe similar to 140 churches of Lyonesse?)

"there is evidence of a large Roman population here [Richborough] in the early 5th century, some of them worshipping in the Early Christian church discovered in a corner of the fort."
"The church [at Richborough/Rutupi] was probably built at the end of the 4th century or at the beginning of the 5th century."
Though the church of Julius/Stephen might be the building over the large cruciform platform (which might be grave of Laberius/Labienus)? Laberius might have been corresponded with Stephen the first christian martyr?

[xxvii. at land's end, by island]

As we already said in detail vi., the 'city of Lions/Lyones/Lyonesse' "between Land's End / Cornwall and Scilly"  in the far south-west corner is analogously similar to our 'city of the legion' site Richborough/Rutupi in the Wantsum-Stour area between Kent and Thanet in the far south-east corner (and the first station in itinerary of Britain). (Another 'city of the legion' candidate of someone else is Carhaix which is in Finistere (Land's End, Penn-ar-Bed).)

xxviii. indirect correspondence of the 'city of the legion' and Richborough/Rutupi via other intermediate 3rd sources synonymous or analogous places (/) names.

Dissecthach of the Pa Gur matches both the 'city of the legion' of the HB and Richborough of the SS/ND.
Matches between Dissethach & city of the legion:
Dissethach 5th of 9 matches 'city of the legion' 6th of 9. Dwellings matches city (& legion).
Matches between Dissethach & Richborough/Rutupi:
Both 5th of 9. Fastness of Dissethach fits the Richborough/Ebbesfleet area. Both match the 'city of the legion'.

Gwensteri of Taliesin matches both  matches both the 'city of the legion' of the HB and Richborough of the SS/ND.
Matches between Gwensteri and Richborough/Rutupi:
Gwensteri key to Lloegyr matches Richborough. Both have white.

-----
"Countries that destroy their past deserve no future".
(& governments that force their poison fluoridated (etc) tap water on their disadvantage citizens water deserve no respect.)
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2017 at 01:59
One addition to the 'city of the legion' = Richborough/Rutupiae chapter:
The name 'urbe legionis' for the 6th battle site of Arthur is Roman/Latin in difference the the names of the other 8 of the 9 battle sites. This supports that the site is in the more Roman south-east.

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