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Is English Romance?

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  Quote Gordon410 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is English Romance?
    Posted: 10-Aug-2016 at 11:44
Linguistics is based on opinion. Linguists attempt to classify languages into one family each. Do the classifications tell us everything about ancestry? Absolutely not. They tend to shortcut history, misleading all who listen.

Is English a Romance Language? English has part Romance blood in it, but it is not classified as Romance. Thus, linguists have established that partiality is measured as invalidity. Since English is only partially Germanic, that should be partiality ignored too. It turns out, Germanic is the closest language family in which English fits. Dominant ancestry makes a language belong to a family.
What is a language family? “A language family is a group of languages related through descent from a common ancestor, called the proto-language of that family.” Thus, English seems like it should be Latin because of its Latin ancestry.
What is a Romance language? A Romance language is a language that is developed from Latin. In the 11th century, Latin partially developed the English language making English partially a Romance language. “The Romance languages are a language family in the Indo-European languages. They started from Vulgar Latin. The biggest Romance languages are Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian, Romanian, and Catalan. They are called "romance languages" because they originate from a language spoken by Romans.” If English is to be Romance, it must start from Vulgar Latin. English did not begin from Vulgar Latin. To be completely fair, Spanish did not directly begin from Vulgar Latin either. Spanish is a dialect of the Castilian languages, and it is a far descendant from Vulgar Latin. This goes for all of the Romance languages. Thus, right there, it appears that Wikipedia has contradicted itself. “Also, Romanic. Also called Romance languages. the group of Italic Indo-European languages descended since a.d. 800 from Latin, as French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian, Provençal, Catalan, Rhaeto-Romanic, Sardinian, and Ladino. Abbreviation: Rom.” Keyword here is descended. French is a descendant of Latin as are all the rest listed in this definition. So is much of English descendant from Latin. 
“About 80 percent of the entries in any English dictionary are borrowed, mainly from Latin. Over 60 percent of all English words have Greek or Latin roots. In the vocabulary of the sciences and technology, the figure rises to over 90 percent. About 10 percent of the Latin vocabulary has found its way directly into English without an intermediary (usually French)” . Thus a good portion of English is a descendent of Latin. Thus, by this definition, it appears that English is partially Romance. 
The classification of languages into language families is not perfect. Linguists strive to classify a language into only one language family. As I have demonstrated, English has its primary ancestry through Germanic, and much vocabulary ancestry through Latin. My conclusion that English is a Romance language, at least in part, is met with only opposition so far. The reason they give is that many languages contain mixtures of family languages as if this is a direct rebuttal of my conclusion which it is not. 
Why is English Germanic? “…the Romance languages are not as closely related to English as the Germanic languages are” . Thus, the dominant trait is the deciding factor. Whichever family contributes more is the one that is the ancestor and language family – Germanic. Is this a fair way to classify a language? It sure is much less complicated and Black and White. But one cannot ignore the gray area. It just doesn’t go away.
“Wait a minute! There are plenty of English words that are almost exactly like their French or Italian equivalents…Rather than evolving solely from the Germanic root language, some words arrived through intermarriage.
“Linguists use many factors, such as grammar, phonology, and vocabulary, to determine the historical ancestry of modern languages. The overall composition of English reveals strong Germanic roots. It’s official: English is a proud member of the West Germanic language family!” .
English has strong Germanic roots. Hence, it is Germanic. “Linguists use many factors, such as grammar, phonology, and vocabulary, to determine the historical ancestry of modern languages.” English it is Latin because of its strong Latin roots. But linguists claim it is not Romance. Can you see the serious logic flaw here? It is a complete lack of Latin recognition, but a complete recognition of Germanic. To call English both Germanic and Latin is okay, one cannot deny the Latin roots. But to call English Germanic and Romance is a sin.
In summary, the lack of Romance recognition is unsatisfactory. Linguists recognize the dominant language. Perhaps it is subjective to say Germanic is more influential than Latin. I do not know because I am not a linguist. But to sit back and let the linguists do all the work in classification and not let the students know even why, is not satisfactory for those wanting to know why English is classified as it is. 
Is English a creole? “The concept of "Proto-Human" presupposes monogenesis (evolution from a common ancestor) of all natural languages apart from pidgins, creoles, and sign languages” . English obviously has two ancestors. “The Middle English creole hypothesis is the concept that the English language is a creole, i.e. a language that developed from a pidgin. The vast differences between Old and Middle English have led some historical linguists to claim that the language underwent creolisation at around the time of the Norman Conquest. The theory was first proposed in 1977 by C. Bailey and K. Maroldt and has since found both supporters and detractors in the academic world.[1]” . Obviously, this hypothesis makes sense. Why do people say it is not? “However, many say that English is probably not a creole because it retains a high number (283) of irregular verbs.[3]” . It is the grammar that makes the difference. Thus, again, a language family is based on grammar and not vocabulary. English has more than one ancestor. A family does not include vocabulary. 
“A language family is a grouping of linguistically linked languages, stemming from a common ancestral mother-language called Protolanguage” . “A language family is a set of languages deriving from a common ancestor or "parent"” . This does not include vocabulary. Mention that. You notice they don’t. A language family is categorized only by grammatical similarities. If two languages have similar vocabulary, they are not necessarily in the same family. This is not something linguists tell you. The rare times this is applicable and the only time I have found is when English is not a Romance language. Then linguists go into their whole, “grammar is the deciding factor thing.” But why vocabulary is discounted entirely is beyond me. Yes, I agree that grammar is more influential, but to ignore vocabulary, that is unfair. And the only response to this is, that’s that and there is no more discussion. A complete ignorance of the facts! 
The conclusion: Linguistics is arbitrary. It is really based on opinion. This opinion is rather narrow, but they try to classify family languages in ways that will give the student an idea of how family languages are classified, spoon fed. Do the classifications tell us everything about ancestry? Absolutely not. I am therefore not altogether interested in the study of classification. It tends to shortcut and take a simplistic approach even misleading. Research is very important. Don’t just look at what other people say. Find out the facts for yourself. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_family
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/romance?s=t

http://blog.dictionary.com/word-origins/

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/why-e...anic-language/

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/why-e...anic-language/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Human_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle...ole_hypothesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle...ole_hypothesis
http://www.sorosoro.org/en/all-about...-of-languages/

http://grammar.about.com/od/il/g/languagefamilyterm.htm
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Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2016 at 22:30
''Research is very important. Don’t just look at what other people say. Find out the facts for yourself.''

Well said.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Gordon410 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2016 at 22:36
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

''Research is very important. Don’t just look at what other people say. Find out the facts for yourself.''

Well said.

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2016 at 07:11
It is good to look at medieval English sources to see who were the first ancestors of English-speaking people.

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 11-Aug-2016 at 07:12
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  Quote Gordon410 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2016 at 08:07
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

It is good to look at medieval English sources to see who were the first ancestors of English-speaking people.

Why?
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2016 at 14:14
You can't talk about modern English language and classify it into a language family, the number of loanwords in a language can't prove anything, even if they are more than the original words, you should look at Old English words and compare them to the words in different Germanic and Romance languages.
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  Quote Gordon410 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2016 at 18:07
Loanwords? When is English giving them back?
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2016 at 22:17
Originally posted by Gordon410


Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


It is good to look at medieval English sources to see who were the first ancestors of English-speaking people.



Why?


For the same reason in your quote: ''''Research is very important. Don’t just look at what other people say. Find out the facts for yourself.''

And especially that first sentence.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2016 at 00:28
Originally posted by Gordon410

Loanwords? When is English giving them back?


If you mean Linguistic purism, it has a long history in English, you can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_purism_in_English
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  Quote Gordon410 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2016 at 21:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You can't talk about modern English language and classify it into a language family, the number of loanwords in a language can't prove anything, even if they are more than the original words, you should look at Old English words and compare them to the words in different Germanic and Romance languages.

Don't mean to be stubborn, but why should we look at Old English words? Shouldn't we look at Middle English or Modern English words and compare them to the words in different Germanic and Romance languages?
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2016 at 12:25
Originally posted by Gordon410

Don't mean to be stubborn, but why should we look at Old English words? Shouldn't we look at Middle English or Modern English words and compare them to the words in different Germanic and Romance languages?


Of course it can't be denied that a large number of Latin origin words (mostly through French) entered into English in the Middle Ages, but it can't change the fact that English is a Germanic language, you can compare to the number of Arabic words in modern Turkish and Iranian languages.
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  Quote Gordon410 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2016 at 17:49
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

[QUOTE=Gordon410]
Of course it can't be denied that a large number of Latin origin words (mostly through French) entered into English in the Middle Ages, but it can't change the fact that English is a Germanic language, you can compare to the number of Arabic words in modern Turkish and Iranian languages.

I have said this in the OP. English is Germanic. Remember that I asked, "Is English Romance?". Can't a language be a part of two families at once?
 


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  Quote Gordon410 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2016 at 11:17
"Why not the vocabulary?"

You: "Because vocabulary is not a good determination of language origin because it is too mobile and transient for classification."

I: "Well, what is a good determination of language origin?"

You: "Grammar."

I: "But you cannot ignore the minority which is the vocabulary."

You: "No one is ignoring the minority."

I: "You are by ignoring vocabulary."

You: "No! I am not ignoring vocabulary. I agree there are thousands of Romance loanwords."

I: "And you disagree that English is Romance?"

You: "Correct! It is Germanic."

I: "Then it is by Germanic dominance that English is Germanic."

You: "No! It is not by dominance. English is ultimately Germanic."

I: "What about Romance loanwords in vocabulary?"

You: "They are discounted in language classification."

I: "Why?"

You: "Because language classification is determined by the grammatical structure not the overall vocabulary."


I, in turn, will ask, "Why not the vocabulary?"

You: "Because vocabulary is not a good determination of language origin because it is too mobile and transient for classification."

I: "Well, what is a good determination of language origin?"

You: "Grammar."

I: "But you cannot ignore the minority which is the vocabulary."

You: "No one is ignoring the minority."

I: "You are by ignoring vocabulary."

You: "No! I am not ignoring vocabulary. I agree there are thousands of Romance loanwords."

I: "And you disagree that English is Romance?"

You: "Correct! It is Germanic."

I: "Then it is by Germanic dominance that English is Germanic."

You: "No! It is not by dominance. English is ultimately Germanic."

I: "What about Romance loanwords in vocabulary?"

You: "They are discounted in language classification."

I: "Why?"

You: "Because language classification is determined by the grammatical structure not the overall vocabulary."


I, in turn, will ask, "Why not the vocabulary?"
It seems like you cannot answer this question. Every time someone tries to answer the question it raises another question - which raises another and so on until we arrive back at the original question. And why did we arrive back at the original question? Because it was never truly answered.

So, again I will ask, "Why not vocabulary?"
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  Quote Gordon410 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2016 at 12:30
Grouping languages into families is based on grammatical similarities. Why is vocabulary, word etymology, adstratum, etc. not included with language classification?
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