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Polish secret services during WW2

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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Polish secret services during WW2
    Posted: 19-Apr-2016 at 18:14
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

With due respect, Mosquito, the chances of absolutely nothing remaining of any accounts of espionage seems a little bit convenient and somewhat odd. So no one survived or lived to pass on any accounts at all? Why would the Soviets pick and choose records to destroy if they believed they had ultimate power?


Ask the Russians.
Some things are known from their files but it are mostly the files of the Polish agents who were discovered by Soviets or who changed sides.
Polish files are mostly lost because were burn in 1939.
What gets me, Mosquito, is that we're supposed to believe that the Soviets decided to sift through the secret documents only removing the accounts of Polish espionage in regards to the Soviet Union and also somehow silenced anyone connected to the events, plus anyone who may have read them. Totalitarian regimes also believe in their own infallibility. They would have either kept all of the documents or destroyed them all because they would have believed in their own power. No, I don't buy it.


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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2016 at 18:21
As for those who had full knowledge about operations of Polish Secret Services before WW2 there were only two such people: major Marian Jan Steifer and colonel Jan Henryk Żychoń.

There are not confirmed rumours that the first died in 1945 in Budapest, Hungary. But there are also rumours that he was captured by Soviet NKVD, transported to USSR tortured and murdered.




The second died in 1944 in Italy. There is only one his photogaphy:





The chief of Polish Secret Services in Great Britain was colonel Stanisław Gano. In 1945 British Goverment demanded from him all the files of the Polish Secret Services. He did burn most of them, including all the personal files of the agents (he didnt want to allow the British to force his agents to work for them), the rest was seized by the British. After the war he settled in Morocco. Died in 1968 in Casablanca, didnt write any book nor left any memoirs. He just kept silent until his death.



Edited by Mosquito - 19-Apr-2016 at 18:23
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2016 at 18:34
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

What gets me, Mosquito, is that we're supposed to believe that the Soviets decided to sift through the secret documents only removing the accounts of Polish espionage in regards to the Soviet Union and also somehow silenced anyone connected to the events, plus anyone who may have read them. Totalitarian regimes also believe in their own infallibility. They would have either kept all of the documents or destroyed them all because they would have believed in their own power. No, I don't buy it.


I told you what I know. And thats all. However from Japanese files you may learn about informations which Polish secret services shared with the japanese intelligence. Some informations must be also in the files of Polish intelligence which were captured by your British MI5 or MI6. Ask your goverment to share them.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2016 at 18:43
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Btw, Mosquito, might be an idea you reevaluate that little bit of Enigma history again. You totally miss out information about what really happened and the worth of what was presented to the British.


What I know is that British services were not even close to this what Polish had in 1939. They didnt know how enigma works, didnt have their own copy of enigma, havent read a signle german message coded by enigma. Everything has changed after Polish services gave them one and explained how it works.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/15/polish-codebreakers-cracked-enigma-before-alan-turing/

"While Britain still used linguists to break codes, the Poles had understood that it was necessary to use mathematics to look for patterns and had broken some of the early pre-war German codes.

They had then taken a further step by building electro-mechanical machines to search for solutions, which they called "bombes".

On the eve of war in 1939 Bletchely codebreakers Alastair Denniston and Dilly Knox met with members of the Cipher Bureau at a secret facility in a forest in Pyry near Warsaw to share their knowledge.

Alan Turing, also later visited the Polish codebreakers and used their knowledge to develop his own "bombe" capable of breaking the more complex wartime Enigma codes."

http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/~foss/valentin/Polish_breackdown.html



The bomby
        The methods discussed so far did not identify the actual key, only a number of possibilities, which had to be tried, one by one, on an Enigma replica until the operators' fingers were raw and bleeding. What was needed was a machine to accomplish this task.

        The Enigma scrambler was single-ended; one set of terminals served both as input and output. What was needed was a device where certain input terminals could be energized, and as it went through all the possible positions, a second set of terminals monitored to detect a desired output. For example, if it was assumed that the first three letters of a coded message HJQ represented the plaintext anx, input terminals H, J, and Q are energized and output terminals a, n, and x monitored. The machine steps through all cycles until a match is found, and then stops.

        Three sets of double-ended scramblers, one machine cycle apart, were driven by a motor. In our example, input terminals H, J, X were energized, and the machine stopped at any occurence of a, n, x. For each test run, 6 bomby were required, one for each of the 6 possible rotor positions.

        The machines made a ticking noise as they worked, and stopped when they arrived a solution. The Poles called them bomby (plural, "bomba" singular), perhaps from the ticking of the clockwork in a bomb fuse which stopped just before it exploded. Another possibility is that the name came from an ice cream dish they were eating at the time.

        With keys given them by the French, and using replica machines they had built, the Polish team of Marian Rejewski, Jerzy R?zycki and Henryk Zygalski were able to decode most German messages. They were particularly interested in radio traffic between German troops training in Russia, a ploy which allowed them to circumvent terms of the Versailles Treaty. However, they never related their results to the French, probably because they feared the Germans would find out that their codes had been compromised and institute new procedures which would nullify their success. The French, puzzled at receiving no intelligence, continued to pass on the keys nevertheless.

        The Poles began their efforts when the Germans used only three rotors. Although the keys were out of date, they were able to apply them to a backlog of messages.
Originally posted by Mosquito

 
Enigma- German Machine Cipher- "Broken" by Polish Cryptologists 
by Brandi Dawn Brown 


http://www.math.ucsd.edu/~crypto/students/enigma.html

Hopefully is will be of some interest to you, Mosquito.

CLASSIFIED documents released by France for the first time have shown that France and Poland played a crucial part in cracking the Enigma code used by the Nazis – and disprove claims in the Oscar-winning Imitation Game film that it was all due to British mathematician Alan Turing. 
Deciphering the Enigma code – which was used by the German army, air force and navy from 1932 to 1941 – enabled the Allies to intercept communications and played a key role in the eventual defeat of Nazi Germany in 1945. 

French official ‘Mme Nathalie’ – whose real name has been withheld – of secret service archives department DGSE, said: “The situation portrayed in Imitation Game – that the French gave up trying to crack the Enigma code – is untrue.” 

Proof of this is now available to the public after the DGSE decided to declassify some 600 documents connected to General Gustave Bertrand, the French intelligence officer who set up a department tasked with cracking military codes in 1930. 

The “Bertrand archives” include references to a secret German source that reveals the major contribution made by France to deciphering the Enigma coding machine. 

In 1931 General Bertrand was approached by a German agent who offered to sell information about messages being transmitted by his country. The French were also helped by Poland, which expressed fears that same year over “the development of Germany and its intentions” – three years before Hitler became Führer and consolidated his grip on power. 

Historians assert that a Polish team of mathematicians led by Marian Rejewski in Warsaw was the first to understand that the German code was being produced by a mechanical system – like a very complex typewriter – which was subsequently perfected under the Nazi regime. 

During the 1930s Rejewski and his colleagues, using material supplied by French intelligence from German sources, cracked Enigma repeatedly. But the Germans continued to use it, developing the code and making it increasingly difficult to decipher. 

The Polish, French and British did not work together on Enigma until after Nazi Germany annexed Austria during the Anschluss of 1938. By then Polish intelligence had realised it did not have the resources to decipher increasingly complex German coding alone. 

“The Polish undoubtedly brought good working methods with them – without them you would not have had the English [breakthrough],” said Olivier Forcade, expert on French intelligence during the Third Republic. 

Forcade, who is also a history professor at the Sorbonne, added that he did not want to “diminish the genius of Turing”, but rather to set the historical record straight. “The Bertrand archives add the missing piece of the puzzle concerning the French intelligence services,” he said.


So it would seem that the information supplied by your own nation again was overblown and somewhat on the boastful side, Mosquito, hoping maybe documentation wouldn't surface saying events ran differently than they had stated. Also, what is know about what was handed over to the British is that the cyphers had advanced again and again and the Polish Cypher breakers were no longer capable of keeping up. So what the Britsh had was the machine, and the then obsolete original method of breaking the code. It was still of great use, don't get me wrong, but not the story being tried to be put forward.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2016 at 18:53
It wasnt just "of great use". Without this what the Poles did, the British wouldnt be able to do anything. They simply had no idea how ENIGMA did work and tried to break it using linguistic methods.

As for Gustave Bertrand, in all the Polish books is written that he cooperated with the Poles on breaking ENIGMA however it was quite late when Polish Services shared with the French the results of their work.
And also - the French contribution didnt have any scientific character.

It was Rejewski and two other mathematicians from my university who really broke the system. The French contribution was important but there was no British contribution until Turing using the knowledge gathered by Poles and French constructed ULTRA.

To say the truth in above article should have been written:

"During the 1930s Rejewski and his colleagues, using material supplied also by French intelligence from German sources, cracked Enigma repeatedly. But the Germans continued to use it, developing the code and making it increasingly difficult to decipher.

Edited by Mosquito - 19-Apr-2016 at 18:59
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2016 at 18:57
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

What gets me, Mosquito, is that we're supposed to believe that the Soviets decided to sift through the secret documents only removing the accounts of Polish espionage in regards to the Soviet Union and also somehow silenced anyone connected to the events, plus anyone who may have read them. Totalitarian regimes also believe in their own infallibility. They would have either kept all of the documents or destroyed them all because they would have believed in their own power. No, I don't buy it.


I told you what I know. And thats all. However from Japanese files you may learn about informations which Polish secret services shared with the japanese intelligence. Some informations must be also in the files of Polish intelligence which were captured by your British MI5 or MI6. Ask your goverment to share them.

I'm not saying you haven't told me everything you knew, Mosquito. What I am saying is that it's all but impossible to have not had anyone or something documenting any events from that time who in some way was connected. You have already shown how your people enjoy keeping such things alive.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2016 at 19:06
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

I'm not saying you haven't told me everything you knew, Mosquito. What I am saying is that it's all but impossible to have not had anyone or something documenting any events from that time who in some way was connected. You have already shown how your people enjoy keeping such things alive.


And I tell you that such documents existed but were burn in 1939, in 1945 and most likely also by the Russians in 1941 when Germany invaded Soviet Union - if the Russians captured somthing valuable - what is not sure.
The people who had such knowledge are dead. Some of them like Slowikowski did write a book, some like Gano didnt. And there are plenty of files which survived, mostly because Japanese goverment shared them with the public. But most of historians even 10 years ago had no idea about Japanese - Polish cooperation. Nobody knew that there were Polish agents in Germany who used diplomatic passports issued by Japan or that Polish secret service officer was a personal secretary of Japanese diplomat in Germany or that there were Polish code breakers in the Japanese Kwantung army. Most likely because Poland was allied with Britain and British were at war with Japan. And the truth came out after 60 years. And there are no Polish sources which can confirm it because Polish officers who were engaged in this cooperation also didnt speak much about it.

Edited by Mosquito - 19-Apr-2016 at 19:12
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2016 at 19:11
Originally posted by Mosquito

It wasnt just "of great use". Without this what the Poles did, the British wouldnt be able to do anything. They simply had no idea how ENIGMA did work and tried to break it using linguistic methods.

As for Gustave Bertrand, in all the Polish books is written that he cooperated with the Poles on breaking ENIGMA however it was quite late when Polish Services shared with the French the results of their work.
And also - the French contribution didnt have any scientific character.

It was Rejewski and two other mathematicians from my university who really broke the system. The French contribution was important but there was no British contribution until Turing using the knowledge gathered by Poles and French constructed ULTRA.

Maybe you should read the article again, Mosquito. It does state how this new documentation had the French in from the beginning giving the vital material to Poland. Without such help from the French, your mathematicians wouldn't have had anything themselves to start their endeavor from. It makes quite clear how it was very early on this occurred and not the late that has been suggested. What Turing gained from what was supplied isn't known. What is known however is his method used to decipher was found through a number of commonly used words and built on from there. It would seem that in the end his genius was in the simplicity of his idea. 
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2016 at 19:14
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

What Turing gained from what was supplied isn't known. What is known however is his method used to decipher was found through a number of commonly used words and built on from there. It would seem that in the end his genius was in the simplicity of his idea. 


Even this wasnt his idea. The method based on commonly used words was already used by the Poles when they discovered that most of German messages contains the words :Heil Hitler. Dont learn history from the movies.

Edited by Mosquito - 19-Apr-2016 at 19:16
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2016 at 19:22
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

I'm not saying you haven't told me everything you knew, Mosquito. What I am saying is that it's all but impossible to have not had anyone or something documenting any events from that time who in some way was connected. You have already shown how your people enjoy keeping such things alive.


And I tell you that such documents existed but were burn in 1939, in 1945 and most likely also by the Russians in 1941 when Germany invaded Soviet Union - if the Russians captured somthing valuable - what is not sure.
The people who had such knowledge are dead. Some of them like Slowikowski did write a book, some like Gano didnt. And there are plenty of files which survived, mostly because Japanese goverment shared them with the public. But most of historians even 10 years ago had no idea about Japanese - Polish cooperation. Nobody knew that there were Polish agents in Germany who used diplomatic passports issued by Japan or that Polish secret service officer was a personal secretary of Japanese diplomat in Germany or that there were Polish code breakers in the Japanese Kwantung army. Most likely because Poland was allied with Britain and British were at war with Japan. And the truth came out after 60 years. And there are no Polish sources which can confirm it because Polish officers who were engaged in this cooperation also didnt speak much about it.
How do we know that such documents actually existed? Had the knowledge in any been known then surely someone would have written some of it down in order to not lose it all, and yet only those pieces from the records have been burned. The more times I look at it the more unlikely it seems. Even the Romans couldn't make everything disappear when they wanted knowledge of a person to be destroyed. The information won't stay hidden forever, Mosquito. Someone somewhere will hold something which in time will be revealed. 
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2016 at 19:41
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

What Turing gained from what was supplied isn't known. What is known however is his method used to decipher was found through a number of commonly used words and built on from there. It would seem that in the end his genius was in the simplicity of his idea. 


Even this wasnt his idea. The method based on commonly used words was already used by the Poles when they discovered that most of German messages contains the words :Heil Hitler. Dont learn history from the movies.

Maybe you shouldn't presume it was the movie words, Mosquito. LOL

The Polish cryptologic bomba (Polish: bomba kryptologiczna; plural bomby) had been useful only as long as three conditions were met. First, the form of the indicator had to include the repetition of the message key; second, the number of rotors available had to be limited to three, giving six different "wheel orders" (the three rotors and their order within the machine); and third, the number of plug-board leads had to remain relatively small so that the majority of letters were unsteckered.[dubious – discuss] Six machines were built, one for each possible rotor order. The bomby were delivered in November 1938, but barely a month later the Germans introduced two additional rotors for loading into the Enigma scrambler, increasing the number of wheel orders by a factor of ten. Building another 54 bomby was beyond the Poles' resources. Also, on 1 January 1939, the number of plug-board leads was increased to ten. The Poles therefore had to return to manual methods, the Zygalski sheets.

Alan Turing designed the British bombe on a more general principle, the assumption of the presence of text, called a crib, that cryptanalysts could predict was likely to be present at a defined point in the message. This technique is termed a known plaintext attack and had been used to a limited extent by the Poles, e.g., the Germans' use of "ANX" — "AN", German for "To," followed by "X" as a spacer.

Bletchley Park's commanding officer Edward Travis acquired a £100,000 budget for the construction of Turing's machine, and the contract to build the bombes was awarded to the British Tabulating Machine Company (BTM) at Letchworth.[23] BTM placed the project under the direction of Harold 'Doc' Keen. Each machine was about 7 feet (2.1 m) wide, 6 feet 6 inches (1.98 m) tall, 2 feet (0.61 m) deep and weighed about a ton.[24] On the front of each bombe were 108 places where drums could be mounted. The drums were in three groups of 12 triplets. Each triplet, arranged vertically, corresponded to the three rotors of an Enigma scrambler. The bombe drums' input and output contacts went to cable connectors, allowing the bombe to be wired up according to the menu. The 'fast' drum rotated at a speed of 50.4 rpm in the first models[25] and 120 rpm in later ones,[26] when the time to set up and run through all 17,576 possible positions for one rotor order was about 20 minutes.[27]

The first bombe, which was based on Turing's original design and so lacked a diagonal board, was installed in "Hut 1" at Bletchley Park on 18 March 1940[28] and was named "Victory". The second bombe, named "Agnus dei", later shortened to "Agnes", or "Aggie", was equipped with Welchman's diagonal board, and was installed on 8 August 1940; "Victory" was later returned to Letchworth to have a diagonal board fitted.[29] The bombes were later moved from "Hut 1" to "Hut 11". The bombe was referred to by Group CaptainWinterbotham as a "Bronze Goddess" because of its colour.[30] The devices were more prosaically described by operators as being "like great big metal bookcases".[31]

During 1940, 178 messages were broken on the two machines, nearly all successfully. Because of the danger of bombes at Bletchley Park being lost if there were to be a bombing raid, bombe outstations[32] were established, at AdstockGayhurst and Wavendon.[33] In June–August 1941 there were 4 to 6 bombes at Bletchley Park, and when Wavendon was completed, Bletchley, Adstock and Wavenden had a total of 24 to 30 bombes. When Gayhurst became operational there were a total of 40 to 46 bombes, and it was expected that the total would increase to about 70 bombes run by some 700 Wrens. But in 1942 with the introduction of the naval four-rotor Enigma, "far more than seventy bombes" would be needed. New outstations were established at Stanmore and Eastcote, and the Wavendon and Adstock bombes were moved to them, though the Gayhurst site was retained. The few bombes left at Bletchley Park were used for demonstration and training purposes only.[34]

http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombe#The_British_Bombe



Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 19-Apr-2016 at 20:06
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  Quote J.A.W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2016 at 21:10
Bear in mind the very difficult wartime situation the Polish Intelligence Services found themselves in..
..knowing that the British Intelligence Services were compromised by Soviet agents long planted within
 their upper echelons..

Even the comparatively inexperienced US Intelligence Services were warned post-war by the ex-Nazi
SS/SD operatives they'd recruited - that the British had been effectively infiltrated by the Soviets..
..but too late to prevent 'Manhattan Project' nuclear weapons secrets - going to Stalin..

No doubt the Polish Intelligence Services in Britain wanted to prevent the Soviets getting data on
Polish operatives from the British, & the British are rightfully ashamed of their corrupt conduct,
which is why so many of those files remain 'secret' & unobtainable under the '100 year rule'..

So many dirty tricks/disinformation programs.. 
Its incredible that we so naturally assume the  'good-guy' vs 'bad-guy' stuff - is correct, all too readily..
Be Modest In Thyself..
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2016 at 21:53
Originally posted by J.A.W.

Bear in mind the very difficult wartime situation the Polish Intelligence Services found themselves in..
..knowing that the British Intelligence Services were compromised by Soviet agents long planted within
 their upper echelons..

Even the comparatively inexperienced US Intelligence Services were warned post-war by the ex-Nazi
SS/SD operatives they'd recruited - that the British had been effectively infiltrated by the Soviets..
..but too late to prevent 'Manhattan Project' nuclear weapons secrets - going to Stalin..

No doubt the Polish Intelligence Services in Britain wanted to prevent the Soviets getting data on
Polish operatives from the British, & the British are rightfully ashamed of their corrupt conduct,
which is why so many of those files remain 'secret' & unobtainable under the '100 year rule'..

So many dirty tricks/disinformation programs.. 
Its incredible that we so naturally assume the  'good-guy' vs 'bad-guy' stuff - is correct, all too readily..
No doubt you're correct, J.A.W. However, lest we forget. British intelligence practically wrote the book on the modern intelligence service and for decades to come at that time were still top dog at it. They pretty well knew infiltration might be an issue from the time of the Spanish civil war. However, knowing who may be infiltrators is still an issue all security services have to deal with. It should also be mention that amongst other nations who were fighting the Nazis Britain gave intensive training to the US, Soviet Union, and Polish in these aspects. Out of the three the Polish had the more developed skills to start with, but Britain developed her security service with which might still be an unrivalled network from the time of empire. America's only managed to top this in the 1970s I believe. As for corrupt conduct, again without a shadow of a doubt. Ask any of the services if they are spotless and if they reply yes then you know they're a bunch of liars. Hell what am I saying they're actors so they lie for a living.LOL 
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2016 at 17:02
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

British intelligence practically wrote the book on the modern intelligence service and for decades to come at that time were still top dog at it.


At that time, I mean WW 2 British intelligence was in terrible condition. Major Stevens and captain Best who knew everything about British agenture in Germany were captured and interrogated.
Since that time the most valuable informations which the British had were coming from Polish Secret Services.

From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venlo_Incident

"The damage inflicted on Britain's espionage network in Europe caused new Prime Minister, Winston Churchill to start his own spy and sabotage agency, the Special Operations Executive (SOE) in 1940."
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2016 at 22:24
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

British intelligence practically wrote the book on the modern intelligence service and for decades to come at that time were still top dog at it.


At that time, I mean WW 2 British intelligence was in terrible condition. Major Stevens and captain Best who knew everything about British agenture in Germany were captured and interrogated.
Since that time the most valuable informations which the British had were coming from Polish Secret Services.

From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venlo_Incident

"The damage inflicted on Britain's espionage network in Europe caused new Prime Minister, Winston Churchill to start his own spy and sabotage agency, the Special Operations Executive (SOE) in 1940."
The Venlo incident was definitely a wake-up call, Mosquito, but the outcome simply added weaponry to British intelligence armoury. As the quote you added shows a new sabotage unit was formed. However, Churchill's sabotage agency was made up from departments already existing in the intelligence community. These three departments had already been a response to the events stated and expectations of an impending war. Churchill simply cut the red tape by fusing them together.
Mosquito, though much important information was coming through Polish agents we should forget these things tended to be a joint effort. For instance, without funding and other resources from Poland's allies what position would they have been in to take part? It has been stated that about 43% of reports received by British intelligence from continental Europe were from Polish agents. However as it has already been noted agents in France tended to be French. The significance being the huge number of reports of French origin being passed on to Polish handlers who then passed them on to British intelligence. This doesn't in any way make the Polish handlers/operatives any less brave because they aren't retrieving the vast majority of the information themselves. They were still being hunted by the Nazis, and at times being caught. My point is that at times figures don't show the whole thing as it really is. For instance, Mosquito, found this interesting snippet that has somehow slipped under the radar but has managed to make its way to the surface:
According to the book’s author, nearly 200,000 Polish Jews fought against Nazi Germany in the ranks of the Polish Armies on Polish soil and in exile. They defended Poland in September 1939 against the German aggression and they fought in the Polish Armies in exile. Despite the tremendous Jewish military contribution to the Polish war efforts, the official Polish historical bibliography of WWII ignores this Jewish phenomena. The purpose of this book is to rectify this historical injustice and to commemorate the Jewish Fighters in the struggle against Nazi Germany.

The book identifies nearly 5,000 Polish-Jewish officers, giving their name, birth date, military rank and service branch, and death circumstances when applicable. Originally published by the Association of Jewish War Veterans of Polish Armies in Israel.

http://www.avotaynu.com/books/PolishOfficers.htm


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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2016 at 04:44
However the Jews Alani, were rather cooperating with Poles than British, who were consdered by them as an enemy.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2016 at 19:48
Polish-Jewish anti-British cooperation

Since 1937 after meeting of Ze'ev Jabotinsky (leader of Irgun) with Polish leader marshal Rydz- Smigly the Jews in Palestine, especially IRGUN recived Polish help. Some members of Irgun (few tens, no more than 100) were sent to Poland and were trained in construction of bombs, use of many kinds of explosives and street fighting.
Some amount of arms and explosives was also smuggled from Poland to Palestine to arm Irgun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

Others received military training from instructors of the Polish Armed Forces in 1938–1939. This training was conducted in Trochenbrod (Zofiówka) in Wołyń Voivodeship, Podębin near Łódź, and the forests around Andrychów. They were taught how to use explosives. One of them reported later:


"Poles treated terrorism as a science. We have mastered mathematical principles of demolishing constructions made of concrete, iron, wood, bricks and dirt".


When the army of general Anders stationed in Palestine. All the soldiers of Jewish nationality who decided to stay in Palestine were allowed to leave the army. To the British they were reported by Polish authorities as deserters.

One of those who left Polish army in Palestine was later Prime Minister of Israel Menachem Begin. However he didnt run away but came to general Anders and asked him for permission to leave which was granted. He became the leader of Jewish terrorist organisation "Irgun".

Upon arriving in Palestine, Begin, like many other Polish-Jewish soldiers of the Anders' Army, faced a choice between remaining with the Anders' Army to fight Nazi Germany in Europe, or staying in Palestine to fight for establishment of a Jewish state. While he initially wished to remain with the Polish army, he was eventually persuaded to change his mind by his contacts in the Irgun, as well as Polish officers sympathetic to the Zionist cause. Consequently, General Michał Karaszewicz-Tokarzewski, the second in command of the Army issued Begin with a "leave of absence without an expiration" which gave Begin official permission to stay in Palestine. In December 1942 he left Ander's Army and joined the Irgun


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin



This is probably one of the reasons, why during WW2 when Polish troops stationed in Palestine the members of Irgun came to Polish commanders and told how to brand the trucks and cars of Polish army to make them look different than those of British army. Because Poles in the middle east were armed by British and dressed in British uniforms, the fighters of Irgun didnt want to attack Polish soldiers and vehicles.


After WW 2 Israel even wanted to make general Anders the general of their new Jewish army but Anders refused, saying that he is no mercenary.

Edited by Mosquito - 21-Apr-2016 at 19:51
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2016 at 20:17
Originally posted by Mosquito

However the Jews Alani, were rather cooperating with Poles than British, who were consdered by them as an enemy.

Not exactly a shock considering the situation in Palestine at the time. However, this still sounds like a bit of a sweeping statement, Mosquito. My understanding of the situation is that even though many Poles of Jewish descent decided to join the struggle in Palestine many remained with the British to fight in North Africa...etc...against the Nazis. Considering such a sweeping statement I presume you've facts and figures pin-pointing numbers to back it up? I look forward to reading your data. 
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote J.A.W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2016 at 01:59
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

No doubt you're correct, J.A.W. However, lest we forget. British intelligence practically wrote the book on the modern intelligence service and for decades to come at that time were still top dog at it. They pretty well knew infiltration might be an issue from the time of the Spanish civil war. However, knowing who may be infiltrators is still an issue all security services have to deal with. It should also be mention that amongst other nations who were fighting the Nazis Britain gave intensive training to the US, Soviet Union, and Polish in these aspects. Out of the three the Polish had the more developed skills to start with, but Britain developed her security service with which might still be an unrivalled network from the time of empire. America's only managed to top this in the 1970s I believe. As for corrupt conduct, again without a shadow of a doubt. Ask any of the services if they are spotless and if they reply yes then you know they're a bunch of liars. Hell what am I saying they're actors so they lie for a living.LOL 

Britain's spy organisation goes back centuries, beyond Q.E.I's Francis Walsingham..
& their remit of infiltration throughout - was part of the reason for the "Perfidious Albion!" jibe.

Stalin had learned from captured British operatives - in his security role post WW I, to coordinate 
a multi-pronged approach, combining Military/Agency professionals with both paid/compromised foreign traitor/double agents, & ideological 'moles' with longitudinal pathways to career infiltration, from tertiary education onwards..

The British 'establishment' culture ironically favoured this, & when the boss himself of the organisation 
is a traitor/spy he does the job - even more smoothly, as this cannot ever be admitted/revealed..
..except - as in the the case of the Nazi Abwehr & Canaris, with his sabotage exposed post war..

Stalin himself, being fairly suspicious by nature, habitually reserved acting on intel' from a single source,
& usually required confirmation from various independent sources prior to taking meaningful action on it.

Stalin would also 'purge' & 'liquidate' his own security services, & en-mass, as only a harsh dictator could..

Mind you, recent 'waterboarding' type 'interrogation' practices have little on the practices of the 
notorious British WW II Col' Scotland at the Tower of London..
.. let alone the post-war Jewish operatives of any organisation, Communist bloc, Zionist/Israeli, or even within Western Allied de-Nazification squads..

As for being "actors/liars" well, many such 'professionals' were/are of course, law graduates..

& likely, many a usefully employed ex-Nazi/SD operative was told.. "Love your work",
by a colleague/boss during the 'cold war' - even if they they might later be turned in, per Klaus Barbie..

Hans Kammler though, being a much bigger fish, remains on the QT.. even today..

Alan Turing too, although very useful with his splendid programmable electronic computer development,
was deemed a 'liability' due to his ( then illegal) 'homosexual propensities', & may've got the 'chop'..
..with this used as a pretext.. ( & what about James Forrestal? Was he an early MK Ultra victim?)..



Be Modest In Thyself..
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2016 at 08:18
Originally posted by J.A.W.

Britain's spy organisation goes back centuries, beyond Q.E.I's Francis Walsingham..
& their remit of infiltration throughout - was part of the reason for the "Perfidious Albion!" jibe.
I'd wager a jibe most intelligence organizations around the world would wear as a badge of honour no doubt. LOL Saying that the actual jibe, J.A.W., as you may have already realized is one, historically speaking, made by your enemy or those with a grudge. Also, "perfidious" originally was used by many to describe many other nations. Btw, British only goes back to 1603.Smile

Originally posted by J.A.W.

Stalin had learned from captured British operatives - in his security role post WW I, to coordinate 
a multi-pronged approach, combining Military/Agency professionals with both paid/compromised foreign traitor/double agents, & ideological 'moles' with longitudinal pathways to career infiltration, from tertiary education onwards..

The British 'establishment' culture ironically favoured this, & when the boss himself of the organisation 
is a traitor/spy he does the job - even more smoothly, as this cannot ever be admitted/revealed..
..except - as in the the case of the Nazi Abwehr & Canaris, with his sabotage exposed post war..

Stalin himself, being fairly suspicious by nature, habitually reserved acting on intel' from a single source,
& usually required confirmation from various independent sources prior to taking meaningful action on it.

Stalin would also 'purge' & 'liquidate' his own security services, & en-mass, as only a harsh dictator could..
People suffering from paranoia, J.A.W. It's a destructive force on the person suffering from it, but as witnessed with both Stalin and Hitler has huge consequences on others. 

Originally posted by J.A.W.

Mind you, recent 'waterboarding' type 'interrogation' practices have little on the practices of the 
notorious British WW II Col' Scotland at the Tower of London..
.. let alone the post-war Jewish operatives of any organisation, Communist bloc, Zionist/Israeli, or even within Western Allied de-Nazification squads..
The jury is still out on this one. Personally, I'm not keen on torture.
Scotland was accused by a number of prisoners of the London Cage of extracting confessions by torture. Prior to publication of London Cage, MI5 pointed out that Scotland had detailed repeated breaches of the Geneva convention, and had admitted "that prisoners had been forced to kneel while being beaten about the head; forced to stand to attention for up to 26 hours; threatened with execution; or threatened with 'an unnecessary operation'." Publication of the book was delayed for years, and these details were excised.[1]

In London Cage, Scotland vigorously denied that violence was used against prisoners, and that confessions were obtained by seizing upon discrepancies in the accounts of prisoners. "We were not so foolish as to imagine that petty violence, nor even violence of a stronger character, was likely to produce the results hoped for in dealing with some of the toughest creatures of the Hitler regime."[25]

While denying "sadism", Scotland said things were done that were "mentally just as cruel". One "cheeky and obstinate" prisoner, he said, was forced to strip naked and exercise. This "deflated him completely" and he began to talk. Prisoners were sometimes forced to stand "round the clock", and "if a prisoner wanted to pee he had to do it there and then, in his clothes. It was surprisingly effective."[26]

Scotland refused to allow Red Cross inspections at the London Cage, on the grounds that the prisoners there were neither civilians or criminals within the armed services.[27]

In September 1940, Guy Liddell, director of MI5's counterintelligence B Division, said that he had been told by an officer present at the interrogation that Scotland had punched the jaw of a captured German agent at the London Cage. The agent was Wulf Schmidt, known by the code name "Tate." Liddell said in a diary entry that Scotland was "hitting TATE in the jaw and I think got one back himself." Liddell said: "Apart from the moral aspects of the thing, I am convinced that these Gestapo methods do not pay in the long run." Liddell said that "Scotland turned up this morning with a syringe containing some drug or other, which it was thought would induce the prisoner [Tate] to speak."[28][29] Schmidt subsequently became a double agent against the Germans as part of the Double Cross System of double agents operated by MI5.[29]

In 1943, allegations of mistreatment at the London Cage resulted in a formal protest to the Secretary of State for War by MI5 director Maxwell Knight.[citation needed] The allegations were made by Otto Witt, a German anti-Nazi who was interrogated to determine if he was acting on behalf of German intelligence.[30]

At his war crimes trial, SS General Fritz Knoechlein claimed that he was tortured, which Scotland dismisses in London Cage as a "lame allegation".[19] According to Knoechlein, he was stripped, deprived of sleep, kicked by guards and starved. He said that he was compelled to walk in a tight circle for four hours. After complaining to Scotland, Knoechlein alleges that he was doused in cold water, pushed down stairs, and beaten. He claimed he was forced to stand beside a hot gas stove before being showered with cold water. He claimed that he and another prisoner were forced to run in circles while carrying heavy logs.[1]

"Since these tortures were the consequences of my personal complaint, any further complaint would have been senseless," Knoechlein wrote. "One of the guards who had a somewhat humane feeling advised me not to make any more complaints, otherwise things would turn worse for me." Other prisoners, he alleged, were beaten until they begged to be killed, while some were told that they could be made to disappear.[1]

Scotland said in his memoirs that Knoechlein was not interrogated at all at the London Cage because there was sufficient evidence to convict him, and he wanted "no confusing documents with the aid of which he might try to wriggle from the net." During his last nights at the cage, Scotland states, Knoechlein "began shrieking in a half-crazed fashion, so that the guards at the London Cage were at a loss to know how to control him. At one stage the local police called in to enquire why such a din was emanating from sedate Kensington Palace Gardens."[19]

At a trial in 1947 of eighteen Nazis accused in the massacre of fifty Allied prisoners who escaped from Stalag Luft III, the Germans alleged starvation, sleep deprival, "third degree" interrogation methods, and torture by electric shock. Scotland describes these in his memoir as "fantastic allegations." "At more than one stage in those fifty days of courtroom wrangling, a stranger to such peculiar affairs might have suspected that the arch-criminal of them all was a British Army intelligence officer known as Colonel Alexander Scotland."[31]

Scotland denied the allegations at the trial. In London Cage he says he was "greatly troubled. . . by the constant focus on our supposed shortcomings at The Cage, for it seemed to me that these manufactured tales of cruelty toward our German prisoners were fast becoming the chief item of news, while the brutal fate of those fifty RAF officers was in danger of becoming old history."[32]

http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Scotland#Torture_allegations


Originally posted by J.A.W.

As for being "actors/liars" well, many such 'professionals' were/are of course, law graduates..

& likely, many a usefully employed ex-Nazi/SD operative was told.. "Love your work",
by a colleague/boss during the 'cold war' - even if they they might later be turned in, per Klaus Barbie..

Hans Kammler though, being a much bigger fish, remains on the QT.. even today..

Is that a rebuttal, J.A.W., towards law graduates? LOL I guess that's a matter of opinion. Smile Anyhow, J.A.W. acting out a part convincingly enough is persuading the observer that what they are experiencing is true when it isn't. An analogy of the term acting and lying. 

Originally posted by J.A.W.

Alan Turing too, although very useful with his splendid programmable electronic computer development,
was deemed a 'liability' due to his ( then illegal) 'homosexual propensities', & may've got the 'chop'..
..with this used as a pretext.. ( & what about James Forrestal? Was he an early MK Ultra victim?)..
I have a huge respect for Alan Turing and am not totally convinced on the official account of his death, but maybe I'm jaded by many such accounts of others factual and fictional. Btw, J.A.W., apart from the official account there two alternatives. One as you've stated, the hit, but the other is simply exposure to cyanide which occurred a lot in his experiments. 
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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