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Support the Return of the Parthenon Marbles
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Support the Return of the Parthenon Marbles
    Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 21:20
One thing that everyone must keep in mind when it comes to the Marbles is, did Elgin have the right to take the Marbles? Whe asking this question the answer is NO! He only recieved permission to take molds of the sculptures on the Parthenon and other buildings and to collect whatever pieces were laying loose around the Acropolis nothing more and nothing less!
 
What he did was to CUT the structure in order to REMOVE them from it, thus causing irreparable damage to the structure itself.
 
What gets me about it is that the Brits claim that the Marbles would have been destroyed if Elgin had not removed them. To this I say B.S! All the other Marbles are still intact and in good condition. While the Marbles at the British Museum were damaged when steel wool was taken to them in the 1930's to remove "Dirt". That dirt later discovered was actually remnants of the paint that once covered all the sculptures!
 
So do the Greeks have a legal claim for the Marbles, yes, because they were ilegally taken without permission. 
 
 
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Posts: 2329 		  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 17:46
Seems that some serious developments are underway on the Parthenon Marbles issue. For the first time since they were stolen the British museum is hinting that it may give them back, even in the form of a "loan".
From my part I don't really mind, as long as they're finally returned. Greece has always sought to resolve this in a friendly manner, even suggesting to donate to the British Museum a part of the new Acropolis museum, to house the Marbles as a branch of the British Museum in Greece. In such a case the BM will not loose face, at technically the marbles will still be in its possession.
 
 
BBC article below:
 
Talks due on Elgin Marbles return
Elgin%20Marbles
The sculptures could be loaned to a new museum in Athens
A lengthy dispute between Britain and Greece may move a step closer to a resolution when sides meet to discuss returning the Elgin Marbles to Athens.

Talks in two weeks' time will be the first serious negotiations after years of resistance by the British Museum.

 


Edited by Yiannis - 21-Apr-2007 at 17:47
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Posts: 68 		  Quote human Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 07:48
I believe that the marbles should return to their home.
The Greek goverment can discuss to loan them to museums around the world.
Parthenon is a heritage to all humanity and should be shared all over the world and not only Greece.
 
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Posts: 218 		  Quote New User Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2007 at 10:53
Of course the marbles should go back to Athens. It is where they come from, they will be sufficently looked after and protected. I do not see why they are not back there already.
 
I see the points of museums keeping their collections etc but in this case it seems a paltry point in comparison with the benefits of them being back at their source. It is not like there is nothing left to place them in context in Greece, it seems academically feeble to keep them seperated from their building by so many hundreds of miles.
 
As a brit who doesnt feel her country is the only one that can look after ancient remains I believe keeping them in London is no longer feasible, appropiate or good for scholarship on the subject.


Edited by New User - 27-Apr-2007 at 10:57
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Posts: 2329 		  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 06:52
Originally posted by bylazora

  
...London is no longer appropriate for good scholarship?? 
 
Thinking of the irreparable damage that the Parthenon marbles suffered while in the British museum due to the careless handling, I'd say that the above statement is not far from the truth. The new Acropolis Museum is state of the art and Greek archaeologists are consider top of the notch, so nothing suggests the opposite.
 
Now regarding the rest of the crap that you post, regarding modern Greeks not being related to the ancient ones, I consider it only a sample of your immaturity. You only intention is to create a flame war, which will not be allowed. Consider this as a warning and be aware that you will not be tolerated if you continue down the same road..
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 08:44
Originally posted by Yiannis

 
I'd say that the above statement is not far from the truth.
 
Comparing level of science in UK to that in Greece (or any other southeastern Europe country if you wish)  this statement is actually very far from truth.


Edited by Anton - 05-Jun-2007 at 08:44
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Posts: 2329 		  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 09:02
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Yiannis

 
I'd say that the above statement is not far from the truth.
 
Comparing level of science in UK to that in Greece (or any other southeastern Europe country if you wish)  this statement is actually very far from truth.
 
What is wrong with you Anton? Can't you understand the whole quote where I'm saying that this is in relation to the mishandling of the Parthenon Marbles from their British Museum curators?
 
Do you really have to reply, if you have nothing of substance to say but to generalize out of proportion?
 
 
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 09:42
Nothing really, I just think that your statement about handling is biased. But I admit that I might be wrong though.

Edited by Anton - 05-Jun-2007 at 09:54
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Posts: 218 		  Quote New User Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 14:42
 
Quote bylazora"...London is no longer appropriate for good scholarship??
 
You mean by putting the marbles in Athens, we are going to learn more about them? What a laugh! The marbles should stay exactly where they are. I should say that the Greek people, who that State represents, do not have a right to those marbles, simply because they now occupy a land once inhabitated by ancient Greeks. I can understand why they may want the marbles on aesthetic grounds, or out of scientific interest - but that is not their arguement at all. They are not the same people - and those marbles stand for something greater than - dare I say it - politics. They should be kept where they are - where everyone can study them as a monument to ancient Greece - and not modern Greek politics."
 
 
It not politics to place a historic piece in context with the building it came from, when the facilities are there to be used. I guess it depends on whether you think putting stuff in context is important or not. Wink


Edited by New User - 07-Jun-2007 at 21:03
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Posts: 68 		  Quote Southerneighbr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 16:18
Originally posted by New User

 
 
 
You mean by putting the marbles in Athens
 
 
 
 
 
 What is wrong with Athens?The Acropolis museum is doing just fine.I believe we can manage the marbles without a problem.
 Regarding ancient Greek ancestry of modern Greeks...Well i dont believe any nation in the Balkans today is a direct descendant of the ancients...We are all a mix...
  Today we are more than capable of managing the marbles.London must find another excuse.It is getting boring...
 
 
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Posts: 3224 		  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 16:31
Has the museum opened to the public yet, despite NOT possessing the marbles? If so, have you been to it Southerneighbr? I'd quite like to hear/see what it's like...must be very modern.

EDIT: Excuse me, I left out a very vital word - "NOT". I apologise.


Edited by Knights - 05-Jun-2007 at 20:17
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Posts: 1460 		  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 16:35
The delicate process of transporting the exhibits and artifacts currently housed in a small museum atop the Acropolis in central Athens to a new state-of-the-art Acropolis Museum facing the celebrated hill's south side will begin in September 2007. 
The entire operation is expected to last until the end of the year, as the new Acropolis museum is scheduled to open in early 2008.
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Posts: 68 		  Quote Southerneighbr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 16:42
Originally posted by Knights

Has the museum opened to the public yet, despite possessing the marbles? If so, have you been to it Southerneighbr? I'd quite like to hear/see what it's like...must be very modern.
 
 
 No and no. It is believed to become a state-of-the-art museum when fully opens.At least that is what they tells us...
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Posts: 68 		  Quote Southerneighbr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 17:03
Originally posted by Knights

Has the museum opened to the public yet, despite NOT possessing the marbles? If so, have you been to it Southerneighbr? I'd quite like to hear/see what it's like...must be very modern.

EDIT: Excuse me, I left out a very vital word - "NOT". I apologise.
 
 
 Its ok, i understood it was only a mistake.
 
 As i said,the new state-of-the art Acropolis museum is believed to become one of the most modern,IF NOT, the most modern museum in the world.
 
 Athens wants to shut up London once and for good.We have been trying to get the marbles back for almost 200 years.London's constant arguement was that Greece did not have the facilities to keep the marbles safe.
 
 Regarding our right to claim back the marbles,already the British public has sided with the Greek public on this matter.
 The marbles are a piece of our cultural heritage and an important integral part of a live monument in Athens.Either we are of the ancient Greek stock or not we are the continuers of the Ancient Greek culture today.Our right to the marbles is undisputable.
 
 After the creation of probably the most modern museum of the world, London will have to find another excuse....I guess now they cant complain about the smog in Athens....Probably this time they ll say something about the earthquakes we have in GreeceLOL


Edited by Southerneighbr - 06-Jun-2007 at 17:05
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Originally posted by bylazora

Originally posted by New User

Of course the marbles should go back to Athens. It is where they come from, they will be sufficently looked after and protected. I do not see why they are not back there already.
 
I see the points of museums keeping their collections etc but in this case it seems a paltry point in comparison with the benefits of them being back at their source. It is not like there is nothing left to place them in context in Greece, it seems academically feeble to keep them seperated from their building by so many hundreds of miles.
 
As a brit who doesnt feel her country is the only one that can look after ancient remains I believe keeping them in London is no longer feasible, appropiate or good for scholarship on the subject.
 
...London is no longer appropriate for good scholarship??
 
You mean by putting the marbles in Athens, we are going to learn more about them? What a laugh! The marbles should stay exactly where they are. I should say that the Greek people, who that State represents, do not have a right to those marbles, simply because they now occupy a land once inhabitated by ancient Greeks. I can understand why they may want the marbles on aesthetic grounds, or out of scientific interest - but that is not their arguement at all. They are not the same people - and those marbles stand for something greater than - dare I say it - politics. They should be kept where they are - where everyone can study them as a monument to ancient Greece - and not modern Greek politics.
 
bylazora (capital of ancient Paeonia) 
 
 
Just for the record, my reply to this post was deleted by the mods because the only way I can or should reply to this is indeed too caustic (however rather smarmy, don't you think Yiannis?). I refuse to answer to such provocatory nonsense in a civilized way. And, for the record, if things like this are allowed to post, then the reply will certainly cause a flame war. Look for the cause, not the outcome.
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did my post offend? Apologies if that was the case I just thought the should go back into context in Athens..Smile
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 02:34
Originally posted by New User

did my post offend? Apologies if that was the case I just thought the should go back into context in Athens..Smile


C'mon. The marbles do not need to go to Athens - they can be researched and studied perfectly well in London.

Secondly, they don't need to be in Athens to 'put them into context'! Their historical content and context is clear.

The Greek request (sic demand) for the marbles is a political statement. The marbles don't 'belong' to the Greek people - they belong to ancient history; the constant racial sub-text and cultural hierarchy modern Greeks put in such things should be enough to warn anyone to leave it where it is! The fact that they have a 'right' to the marbles based on historical grounds, should ring loud warning bells. We all know modern Greek were never ancient Greeks - and that nationalism in that country is absurdly spectacular.

I should add that if they were 'mishandled' - then that is a shame. It is not a reason to move them.

I say leave the marbles where they are.



Edited by bylazora - 08-Jun-2007 at 03:02
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New User, thank you for your support; it's good to hear such things from British people Smile
(btw Constandinius' post was not directed at you)

Constandinius, you don't deserve to get a warning (or suspension?) for this bylaroza. However, should you feel the need to reply to him/her in an uncivilized way again, please also PM it to me, because I missed your previous reply Big%20smile
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Posts: 2329 		  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 04:04
Originally posted by bylazora

We all know modern Greek were never ancient Greeks - and that nationalism in that country is absurdly spectacular.
 
I believe I had warned you already about trolling and posting only to provoke other forum members into flame wars.
 
So this is now an official warning for you and the next step is your ban (permanent or not to be discussed).
 
Notice to other forum member: Please abstain from replying to his posts in this manner!
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Posts: 68 		  Quote Southerneighbr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 07:44
Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by bylazora

We all know modern Greek were never ancient Greeks - and that nationalism in that country is absurdly spectacular.
 
I believe I had warned you already about trolling and posting only to provoke other forum members into flame wars.
 
So this is now an official warning for you and the next step is your ban (permanent or not to be discussed).
 
Notice to other forum member: Please abstain from replying to his posts in this manner!
 
 
  Yiannis, there is no reason to get defensive about our ancestry.I for one do not believe i come from the Ancient Greeks even though such stuff is  propagated in Greece as early as schooling.
  It would be very one-sided to absolutely believe that we are pure blooded descendants of the ancient Greeks.I feel very comfortable accepting that our nation is a mixture of Balkan populations.Like all Balkan nations for that matter.
 
 Remember that Greece's official policy on ancient Greece is that we have a ''cultural'' continuity and not a full-blooded relationship with the ancient Greeks.
 So let bylazora express his beliefs if that strengthens his argument the marbles to stay in London.
 
 But regardless of what our agglo-saxonic British friend might think it is common knowledge that the Acropolis museum will be the most modern museum in the world.
 So i am putting the debate on another bases.Why refuse bring back the marbles to a place which will obviously take care of the marbles much better that London did in the past or is currently doing?
 
 If bylazora's worries are based on Greece's past difficulty to take care of the marbles,what about now that we are building the best museum in the world?
 
 Will London invoke Greece's warm climate or seismicity that might allegedly harm the marbles,in order to make an excuse this time????
 
 
I believe Athens has succesfully shut up London on the marbles by creating a state-of-the art museum which will be the best in the world.....So what now London???
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