Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

ancient turk and scythian

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Aeoli View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 13-Feb-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 229
  Quote Aeoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: ancient turk and scythian
    Posted: 13-Mar-2016 at 14:49
Originally posted by gader1371

 
I AM NOT AZERY I AM IRANIAN TURK

I wish people of Turkey use another term instead of Turk. Example; Russians, Serbs, Polish. But their common name is SLAV, so there is no chance to make mistake.

But when you say I am Iranian Turk, I can't be sure anything. There are 2 options;

*You can be Azeri, Turkmen or Qashqai

*You can be Ottoman Turk who immigrate Iran.



Edited by Aeoli - 13-Mar-2016 at 14:50
Back to Top
gader1371 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 11-Mar-2016
Location: IRAN
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16
  Quote gader1371 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2016 at 09:18
no we are turkic people azeri  is  a false name by pahlavi government for political reasone before that  to azerbijan  people say turk people.
turk is a mass noun name for all over turkic people in the world
Back to Top
gader1371 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 11-Mar-2016
Location: IRAN
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16
  Quote gader1371 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2016 at 09:35
arax river is definitely  the aras river  in iran azerbijan and iranian turk is the same scythian  by massaget skates had been forced to migrate the southern aras river. It happened about 653 years before Christ.
Massage Scythians are people of Azerbaijan.
South Azerbaijani people are migrating Scythians

Back to Top
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2016 at 10:09
Originally posted by gader1371

no we are turkic people azeri  is  a false name by pahlavi government for political reasone before that  to azerbijan  people say turk people.turk is a mass noun name for all over turkic people in the world


An interesting concept. Do for example you use the term to identify a national state...a ethnic nationality...a genetic identifier or all of the above...when you make this statement: ''turk is a mass noun name for all over turkic people in the world''.

If the first; than Jews in Turkey are Turks...correct? With a theological adherence to Judaism. Do non Jewish Turks view them as Turks or other?

Curious is all.

Because Turks who live in America for example, that have immigrated, consider themselves in the main, as Americans...not Turks. Especially if they have received citizenship..or resident status. there are of course exceptions. Hence they would use the term as a national identification.

They do however, and rightfully so, still revere their heritage.

Thanks.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
gader1371 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 11-Mar-2016
Location: IRAN
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16
  Quote gader1371 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2016 at 11:02
this is your opinion and I respect it.
Back to Top
TheAlaniDragonRising View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Spam Fighter

Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6063
  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2016 at 15:58
Originally posted by gader1371

arax river is definitely  the aras river  in iran azerbijan and iranian turk is the same scythian  by massaget skates had been forced to migrate the southern aras river. It happened about 653 years before Christ.
Massage Scythians are people of Azerbaijan.
South Azerbaijani people are migrating Scythians

Azerbaijan people are a really mixed amalgam of many many peoples, gader1371, but Scythian? I'm not seeing it really. There may be traces in the population here or there, but not so much to identify the people as a whole. That is unless you've definitive proof stating a positive connection, and I look forward to you coming forth with what you have. 
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
Back to Top
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2016 at 16:59
Originally posted by gader1371

this is your opinion and I respect it.



Thanks....but you didn't answer any of my questions. So lets expand; in Iran are those of the Jewish faith Iranians or 'Jews' first?

Turks...Iranians..Scythians...Medes..Persians..or an amglamation through cultural and genetic diffusion to some degree. Of all peoples in the region.

Iow. What identifier are you applying? Nationalism...ethnic cultural heritage... theologic...genetic proclivity or all of the above.

Thanks.

Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 14-Mar-2016 at 17:07
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
gader1371 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 11-Mar-2016
Location: IRAN
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16
  Quote gader1371 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2016 at 06:27
TheAlaniDragonRising
ok I accept your opinion I think scythian are ancestor turkic people and now we azerbijan turk people have not any similarities in term of appearance with ancient scythian .
if you ask me whom similar to scythians  my answer is  to you  people north europe to example people england-ireland-scotland

Back to Top
gader1371 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 11-Mar-2016
Location: IRAN
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16
  Quote gader1371 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2016 at 06:59
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Originally posted by gader1371

this is your opinion and I respect it.



Thanks....but you didn't answer any of my questions. So lets expand; in Iran are those of the Jewish faith Iranians or 'Jews' first?

Turks...Iranians..Scythians...Medes..Persians..or an amglamation through cultural and genetic diffusion to some degree. Of all peoples in the region.

Iow. What identifier are you applying? Nationalism...ethnic cultural heritage... theologic...genetic proclivity or all of the above.

Thanks.
I think thay are immigrants thousand years ago  come to iran and now thay are iranian people with jewish religion.
my intent of hold this post is prevention  falsification history
Back to Top
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2016 at 17:48
Good luck.

As a historian I will give you this...If you can remain as objective as possible..if you can respectfully at least examine counter theorem and evidence...then You have gone a long way towards doing this: ''my intent of hold this post is prevention falsification history"'


Because in the end what you believe to be a false or incorrect interpretation of history...may actually not be at all....but a theorem that, evidence objectively examined, might yet be discovered or is already accepted by those with the expertise to validate it.

thanks.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
TheAlaniDragonRising View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Spam Fighter

Joined: 09-May-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6063
  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2016 at 19:52
Originally posted by gader1371

TheAlaniDragonRising
ok I accept your opinion I think scythian are ancestor turkic people and now we azerbijan turk people have not any similarities in term of appearance with ancient scythian .
if you ask me whom similar to scythians  my answer is  to you  people north europe to example people england-ireland-scotland









Have something here I thought you should take a look at.

Where Have all the Saka Gone?

Saka & Turkic Peoples

Today, the traditional Saka lands around the southern banks of the Aral Sea and along the banks of the Syr Darya River (northern Uzbekistan and southern Kazakhstan), are inhabited by a people who speak a Turkic/Altaic language and who are sometimes called the Turkoman. These Turkic speaking peoples now occupy an area that stretches from Turkey to Azarbaijan (Azerbaijan), Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan - forming a band in the shape of a dome over the traditional Iranian-Aryan nations. However, the appearance of the Turkic peoples and the establishment of the Turkic language in these areas is a relatively modern phenomenon. 

Before the arrival of the Turkic people with Mongolian-like features, the native Saka were a buffer people and their land a buffer region between the Aryan heartland and the northern peoples - peoples from the north as well as from the region of today's Mongolia and Siberia in the northeast. 

After 200 BCE and particularly after the turn of the millennium, there is evidence that large groups of people from the north had started to move into the lower Oxus (Khvarizem) region and as well the eastern banks of the Syr Darya River. By 1000 CE, peoples from the Altai region of Siberia (a region also shared with Mongolia, China, and Kazakhstan) had established themselves in the old Saka lands east of the Syr Darya or Jaxartes, and by the time it was written (8th and 9th centuries CE), the Bundahishn, a Middle Persian Zoroastrian text began to call the region Turkistan. At this point in history, the so-called Altai-Turkic groups had settled in the lands between the Syr and Amu Darya rivers.


Theory regarding the spread of Turkic language and peoples
Theory regarding the spread of Turkic/Altaic language and peoples

The migration of the Altai peoples into Central Asia was facilitated by their Mongol cousins. The two groups combined forces that invaded Central Asia. In their armies, the Mongols were the generals while the more numerous Altai-Turks were the soldiers. The Altai-Turks made up the bulk of the invading forces. After the Mongol invasions led by Genghis Khan (c. 1162-1227 BCE), Altai-Turkic peoples quickly poured in to the conquered lands displacing the aboriginal Saka and Turanian inhabitants. When the Mongols left Central Asia and returned to Mongolia, leaders emerged from among the Turks, leaders who became Turkoman/Turcoman kings of the region. 

The invaders from the north almost entirely displaced the aboriginal Saka and Turanian-Sogdian Aryan population. That displacement is very evident around the Amu Darya or Oxus River. There the old Zoroastrian kingdom was overrun and a community that supported a large dakhma, a Zoroastrian burial tower, at Chilpik was abandoned. Before they almost entirely displaced the aboriginal residents, the Altai-Turk adopted some of the regions cultural traits such as the celebration of Nowruz or the New Year on the spring equinox.


Turks & Turan

Turan, a land mentioned in Iranian legend, occupied lands otherwise known as Sugd, Sogdiana - southern Uzbekistan and northern Tajikistan today. Sughdha was the second nation mentioned in the Vendidad, a book of the Zoroastrian scriptures, the Avesta. We also find Sugd mentioned in the Achaemenian inscriptions. In Iranian legend, this land was part of the Iranian-Aryan empire - a part ruled by Tur, one of the three sons of legendary Aryan emperor, King Feridoon. In these legends, we find the name Turanian, and not Sogdian, used for the people who lived in that land. The name Sugd came to be used during the Achaemenian Persian era (700 -330 BCE). 

We also find a people called the Tuirya in the Avesta - people who were among the first to accept Zarathushtra's teachings (cf. Lands of Zarathushtra's Ministry.) Many believe that the name Tuirya evolved to Turan. 

Given that the name Turkic is similar to the name Turi or Turanian, there is a strong temptation to identify the ancient Turanians, and even the Saka, with today's Turkic/Turkoman peoples. 

'Turkic' is a relatively modern word and we find it used in Ferdowsi's Shahnameh. Ferdowsi who did not seem to have known about the invasions of the Altai from the north, calls the new occupants of the land Turki or Turkoman, blurring the distinction between the legendary Turanians and the modern Turkic peoples, who have been known historically as the Hun and as Tartars - a people with little or no cultural affiliation with the Saka or Turanians. Turk or Turki could very well be a name given to the new occupants of Turan by the Persians. The Persians did the same with India (Hind) and Hindu. Hind and Hindu are alien words to the Indians. They call they nation Bharat. The name Hind is a Persian word for the people who lived along the Indus. We are as yet unaware of the Turkic peoples calling themselves by that name in antiquity. 

While the Saka and Turanians were an integral part of the Iranian-Aryan family, the Turkic peoples of Central Asia are ethnically from the area north of the Aral Sea, the Altai, as well as Mongolia and Siberia. The Turkic people may share linguistic roots but their physical features differ. There is also a distinct difference in the features of the Azerbaijani and Turkish Turkic peoples and those from Central Asia. Sharing a language through, say, conquest (the Kazakhs now speak Russian after their conquest by the Russians) does not always mean a sharing of physical characteristics, aboriginal origins or aboriginal culture. 

The aboriginal Saka and Sogdian-Turanian Aryans have been for the main part been displaced by the Altai (Turkic or Turkoman) peoples in today's Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan. 

Perhaps one of the reasons why the Altai-Turkic peoples are sometimes associated with the Saka is because they both had the reputation of being predatory.

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/saka/saka4.htm

What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
Back to Top
ChildrenOfMala'Kak View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2016
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 19
  Quote ChildrenOfMala'Kak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Apr-2016 at 12:41
We know that Scythians and Medians had similar apperance. They had light skinn and bright eyes. And they lived amongst each other which is in the mountains. I belive they might have been the ancestors of pasthun people. Who also lives in the mountains today along with the kurds. But I agree with Gader on this one. Today they are more genitically or at least look very similar in appearance to British people .

Edited by ChildrenOfMala'Kak - 05-Apr-2016 at 12:55
Back to Top
gader1371 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 11-Mar-2016
Location: IRAN
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 16
  Quote gader1371 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2016 at 10:50
exactlly
R1B is  haplogroup too much in west europa for example people of britain or spain and now haplogroup turkic people
ریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترک
Back to Top
Aeoli View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 13-Feb-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 229
  Quote Aeoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2016 at 01:02
Originally posted by gader1371

exactlly
R1B is  haplogroup too much in west europa for example people of britain or spain and now haplogroup turkic people
ریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترکریشه مردم ترک

Very good example to show that being Turk is not about genetic
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.