QuoteReplyTopic: Atlantis May have been in Bolivia Posted: 08-Mar-2016 at 17:26
This is the first article I've seen that separates the City from the Kingdoms.
It also lists the similarities between Plato's description and Bolivia. and the author doesn't have to jerk around with the time span, as does anyone that attempts to place Thera as Atlantis.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Yes as i have been saying for a couple of years now, which most people have been rejecting, we have found and proven that Atlantis capital city is Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku (and now add to that our recent discovery that the 3 cities of Asshur in Genesis 10 may also match 3 Peru/Bolivia cities including Tiahuanaco and Cuzco?). Yes others had also already more or less pinpointed the correct location as a site Peru/Bolivia before us, they include Jim Allen, Mattievich, Weidner & Bridges, J Bailey, Donneley, Siebert, Dav Fasold, Dav Antelo, Zarate, Frank Joseph, M Ozorio, plus Ed Alex, T Morrison. Look up the Inca picture from the Coricancha and see that it has a number of details that are mentioned in the Atlantis Account such as the large rectangular plain with criss-crossing channels, etc. ALso Andean masks with the Atlas pillar motif spade-like symbol above their head (some rising from the concentric circles city). My badly written Atlantis paper is at lifetradition.webs.com . Jim Allen has a site called Atlantis in Bolivia. I posted some of the above mentioned pictures in Atlantis Online Forum in two threads/topics last year. The other 9 kingdoms may have been either in places through South America or in/around the Andes (the may is not as weak as sounds, we have/gave some evidences for them, just couldn't positively identify all of them. The capital city and 1st kingdom was definitely/positively around Tiahuanaco.) And/or they had colonies/bases between Tiahuanaco and Mediterranean (possibly including Heligoland, Tartessos/Huelva, Malta, Scheria, etc). But some people try to separate the city and the kingdoms totally so they can locate the city anywhere and so it is too small to find. Despite problems of incorrect/inaccurate/inadequite English translations of the original Greek, there are clear and Stark matches with Tiahuanaco and South America.
The Atlantis paper was deleted from my hdds when i got my computer & hdds back from the shop! I searched all my files and it was definitely gone (i could be wrong though, i have to double check re one possible doubt but pretty sure). Not sure if he purposely deleted it or it was deleted by virus/antivirus. Luckily i recovered a copy from my website and now this time have plenty of extra backups.
It seems that Posnansky pretty much knew Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku/[Wanaku] is Atlantis city, though he used name Aztlan. Sitchin's 'Lost Realms' gives alot of info on Andes cities in which i noticed stark matches with Atlantis, though he did not seem to realise it himself.
low hill = Akapana capital city = Tiahuanaco the sea = Titicaca large Plain ~ Altiplano mountains = Andes large island/continent = (South)America "sinking/submergence" = pole shift or continental shift.
Many people say "it didn't sink", but the "sinking" could be either land down, water up, land/water sideways (continental shift or pole shift/crust displacment). Pole shift is pretty much accepted now, Tiahuanaco was once on the equator between 2 pole shifts. Major catastrophe evidences in Peru/Bolivia/Andes area....
As long as the truth gets out and as long as it isn't the status quo crimininals that subtly steal it and use it to serve their own interests. Jim Allen and co deserve their credit.
lifetradition.webs.com has our main most recent rewiritng of our rough paper Atlantipedia are wrong in their criticisms of me and my theory/thesis, though they make some valid points about further evidences still needed for arch-sceptics to accept as proven.
The thread on Asshur cities was posted here a few days ago.
Sorry i remember now that the map at http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?132958-Historians-note-that-Odin-who-was-a-very-popular-Thracian-ruler-Thracians-a-hidden-history/ has been removed so skip that one. (Plus beware that site has virus "ads" on it.) Hope the other links pics/info are still there. It now seems that i was wrong about Tarshish-Kittim matching Atlantis/SouthAmerica/Tiahuanaco at http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/21830-table-of-70-nations-gen-10/ .
Sorry i might have possibly got it wrong about Posnansky calling it Aztlan, that might have been one of the other people that i listed who called it that. All the rest should be right though.
Its now being more and more seen to be science fact Med.
As i just updated in the cities of Asshur thread : The cities of Peru/[Atlantis] seem to be connected with Meski-aggaseir/(Sagki-)Agushe-ir of Uruk 1 dynasty who penetrated the sea and went up into the mountains [Andes]. His son & successor in Sumer was Enmerkar. Agushe & Enmerkar may be Cush & Nimrod. Aggusheir would seem to match Asshur of Genesis 10 in details & name? Some identify the continent of Kusa in Hindu with South America. Cush's sons in Genesis 10 have circular/concentric names-meanings. [5 sons Cush ~ 5x2 sons Poseidon??]
havilah "sand" "circular" "twisting/suffers pain". [Akapana??] seba/sheba "seven/oath/sabbath" /"drunkard" / "surrounds enterance" sabta(h) "surrounded by clefts/fissures" "go about" sabteca(h) "surrounded by what is laid down" "lead around" [3 concentric circles of waterland??]
And the other son Raamah maybe connects with Atlantis/Poseidon and Rimac/Lima & Andes: raamah "lofty/heights / thunder(ous)" "tremble/quake" "horse mane"
Sorry for me so readily jumping on the bait Red.
----- To my AE friends: It looks like i may be going to loose my computer (& net/web) again (after i already lost it all of Jan & Feb for 8 weeks after a virus attack in dec against me personally on purpose via a p.m. from a member on apricity forum). This time i won't be able to afford to get it back after being ripped-off $4700 in Jan-Feb for the virus attack repairs. I am not sure if someone has again attacked me with a virus (possibly on here) or other but it wouldn't surprise me as i have found many humans are absolute criminal swine (eg the meter reader breaking in by picking the door lock 3 weeks ago, poisoning/fluoridating the tap water, the virus attack, etc etc). The computer is having problems the last times i turn on/off (says is a "serious error"!). (It is either virus, or i did wrong copying some files from old hdds trying to secure quality of xp, or the computer shop tech rigged it, or because i turned it off once when on, or just something gone wrong being 2nd hand. Also i having heart pains again and may die, and also i may die from lack of water if i can't get decent door locks after the breakin (i can't drink the poison tap water, i have to be able to get artesian water, no one here will help). And obviously i am going to have to stay away from all forums now if lowlives ar going to attack me. (Why they don't attack the criminals in business and government etc rather than me i don't know.) (Not my fault i have been very careful.) So I better post a few last bits in this and other threads now.
We had the idea to put our matches evidences in a table so that people will be able to more easily see what we see (since they said our writing is not easy to read/understand. (Just in case people don't know or remember: our discovery thesis is that Atlantis capital city is Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku and Atlantis large island is (South) America and "sinking" was either Pole Shift or Continental Shift or only the city sank/swallowed not the whole.)
Identification details of Atlantis from Atlantis sources (esp
"Plato", Kirchir, etc)
Matches of historical physical details of Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku
and Peru/Bolivia and (South) America from relevant sources (esp
archaeology, art, mythology, etc).
Person in the Account says it is "true history" and
not just ideal. The spring at Athens was found just like the
Account says. In Berlitz's survey of 270 Atlantis authorities only
46 believed it never existed.
is true history (and fully matches Atlantis Account in all
details).
where: direction: "west(ern)" (Proclus)
["3 islands of Zeus, Poseidon, Hades in west(ern sea)"?]
(pillars of Hercules.)
(Gadeira/Gades.)
(In Atlantic.)
("days sail from Libya".)
(Conquered "upto Tyrrhenia & Libya")
(Atlas Mtns.)
Kirchir's map has Atlantis in Atlantic in West.
["Thoth was born in a distant country to the west...."]
Atlantic Ocean & South America are in the Western
Hemisphere, and are west of Egypt and Greece.
Atlas mountains in farthest west Africa.
Atlantis "days sail off from Libya/Africa".
Azores statue of man on horse pointing west with word
cati/cates which means "this way" in Quechua (Inca).
Prehistoric cultures of Western Europe appeared on Atlantic
coast.
Strabo's extension of Spain.
Stonehenge damaged on south-west side.
Western Hemisphere has more water (Poseidon/Atlantis) than
Eastern one.
[Tuat/Amenti/Urani/Aaru in west?]
[Kittim "westerners"?]
[Tartessos is also western.]
direction:
"then under the sun"
"facing south", "sheltered from north wind"
"days sail off from Africa/Libya".
"from next Libya"
[~ Hyperborea beyond north wind?]
[Egyptian "up/top" was south.]
"Necho's fleet went south (looking for Atlantis)"?]
["North Sea Peoples"? From "9th bow/arc".]
Atlas mountains are in Africa not in Europe/Spain, suggesting
Atlantis by Africs not Europe? Atlas Mts in Africa mirror Andes in
South America.
Atlantis was "days sail off from Africa" [rather than
off from Europe].
Azores statue of man on horse pointing west with word
cati/cates which means "this way" in Quechua (Inca).
Tiahuanaco was on equator in a previous poles position map,
maybe matching Atlantis as "then under the sun"?
South America centred further east than North America. Africa
sticks out further west than Europe/Spain.
in front/mouth of / facing/opposite/beyond/outside/inside the
Pillars/strait(s) of Hercules, not within/inside pillars (Timaeus
24d, 25a, 25b, 25d, Critias 108e, 114c, 114d).
"the whole of the land which is within the straits".
Scholar claims the original Greek really says the Atlanteans
"came from in to out" (not from out to in).
[The 'sea peoples' came "from the pillars/pillar of
heaven".]
There were "12 Pillars of Hercules".
[Herodotus has Tartessos & Celts beyond Pillars of Hercules
at Gibraltar?]
It seems that there were pillars at the eastern and western
limits of the Greek own world? [Egyptians had 4 pillars of the
firmament/heaven.] (Greek & Egyptian known world knew
Tartessos, Masilia, Gades (Necho's fleet).)
Pillars of Hercules = "farthest point" : "... so
now Theron reaches the farthest point by his own native
excellence; he touches the pillars of Heracles."
[Atlantipedia says the Pillars of Hercules were also known as
Pillars of Briareus, and Plutarch places Briareus near Ogygia. The
"tall pillars" were kept on the island of Calypso/Ogygia
(in the Odyssey) which some think is Azores?]
Hercules in his 12 labours traveled as far as Erythia, Libya,
Atlas, & the Hesperides in the far west (and Hades).
Some think Caphtor/Kaptara is related to capital/kapita "of
pillar/column". Kaptara was "where the pole star stands
at zenoth.]
It is said that the original language text implies were
commenoratuve stelae/markers/slabs not supportive columns/pillars.
Peru in west coast of South America is on farthest west edge of
World.
There are massive pillars at the bottom of the Milne-Edwards
deep off the coast of Peru?
The pillars of Kalasas(a)ya? Kalasas(a)ya name means "standing
pillars" or "stone standing up"? Column-like
figures in Tiwanaku sculpture?
Tiahuanaco is between 2 main peaks of local mountains
(Illampu/Sorata and Illimani).
"hitching post of the sun" (Macchu Picchu [which some
link with twin peaked Mt Mashu])?
The 2 pillars are maybe seen flanking Atlas world pillar in
one/some Andean picture/s?
The "candelabra" trident of Paracas?
There are 2 colossal busts or 2 stone idols at Tiahuanaco?
[Perhaps note the 2 rocks "father" & "mother"
left after the Flood in Zuni? Maybe compare Kame & Keri of
Caribs?]
There are 2 straits in lake Titicaca that could possibly
correspond to the straits of Gibraltar & pillars of Hercules?
Or the world tree/pillar may be connected with South American
fan palm which is seen in picture of Toakkari Sea Peoples?
Ancient version of Panama canal at Tehuantepec?
South America is opposite the pillars at
Tartessos/Huelva/Gades/Gibraltar in some map projections.
[Iber & Celtus were sons of Hercules.]
[daughter of Atlas.]
where: distance:
Atlanteans were "unmixed with other mortal stock"
(Critias 121); "at a distant point in the Atlantic";
"invaders" (Timaeus 25d). "from next Libya to
Egypt"?
"on same fault line as Athens" & "cant' have
been too far from Athens/Sais" (modern impressions of Plato's
Account)?
the Pillars of Hercules were "the farthest point".
"at the ends of the earth", "remotest" (Dio
Sic 3:56.)
Diodorus Siculus says Atlantis was "out in deep off Libya
a number of days sail to west / many days sailing across the
Atlantic".
"a remote land in the middle of the ocean" Timagenes.
"not far to the west of Europe" Proclus.
["50 stades (500 miles)" Plutarch?]
["5 days sail west of Britain".]
[Atlas holds up the Heavens &/or the Earth.]
[The Sea Peoples were: "from the ends of the world/earth",
"great darkness", "9th bow/arc", "the
isles and mainland of the outer circle of water" / "the
great water circle [sin-wur]", "from the pillars/pillar
of heaven", had "a great fleet of sailed-ships with
arching prows at each end, in the shape of bird-heads.... ... the
sailed ships of the Peleset were overwhelmed by the slave-oared
Egyptian river craft...."]
["the Phaeacians had ... clippers that carry them across
far-flung seas" (Odyssey 7.)]
[Some think Atlantis ~ Tartessos, & some think Tatessos ~
Tarshish which was across a sea "2000 parasangs wide".]
Peru in the new world in the western hemisphere, in the west
side of South America, in the tropic of capricorn latitutde band
in the southern hemisphere is the one most remotest high
culture/civililsation of the world's civilisations. Critics who
claim that our Atlantis location is too far are actually saying
same words that the Atlantis account says.
Azores statue of man on horse pointing west with word
cati/cates which means "this way" in Quechua (Inca).
"The seas/oceans were highways not barriers". Popul
Vuh says "the 1st race explored the 4 corners of the Earth".
"Sea power came before land power" in geopolitics. "You
shall understand... that about 3000 yrs ago, or somewhat more (ca
1500 bc), the navigation of the world, especially for remote
voyages, was greater than at this day. Do not think with
yourselves that i know not how much it is increased with you
within these 6 score yrs; i know it well; and yet i say, greater
than now. So you see by this main accident of time we lost our
traffic with the Americas... As for other parts of the world, it
is most manifest that in the ages following ... navigation did
everywhere greatly decay, and esp for far voyages." - Sir
Francis Bacon 'New Atlantis'.
South America is centred further east than North America, and
Africa sticks out further than Europe/Spain.
If there was a continental shift then the Atlantic may have
before then been anywhere upto half the current width?
Atlantis Account may imply invasion was over a long time
period?
South America fits as being outside and west of the Western &
Eastern Mediterranean sea, and west of Europe & Libya/Africa &
Asia.
Heliolithic/Megalithic culture is found in alot of places
around the world including Peru. South American fan palm held by
Toakkari Sea Peoples in Assyrian depiction.
The Atlantis Account may imply that the invasion was over a
long time period?
war with Egypt/Athens
size: Atlantis was one Large (whole) island landmass (Critias
114e, 115c), "not a needle in a haystack" (Hancock) :
Was "larger than (or between) Asia & Libya/Africa"
(Timaeus 25a, Critias 109a) (excludes Europe). "= About same
size as USA or Antarctica"? (USA is close to same size as
Australia. Australia is close to same size as face of the Moon.)
[Herodotus said Europe was larger than Asia & Libya, though
says different in another place. Theopompus said Meropis was
larger than Europe, Asia & Libya combined.]
Says "whole island" (Timaeus 25b, Critias 113d, 114b,
[115c,] 118a-118b, 118b), "rest of the country" (Critias
119b), &, "mid-point of (the longest side of) the island"
(Critias 119d).
Had a large plain (Critias 118b), and other plains too (Critias
115a), and meadows (Critias 118c).
"both in city and country" Critias 114e.
Had many (& highest) mountains (Critias 115a, 118a-118b,
118c, 118d-118e).
Had 10 kings regions (Critias 113d, 114a, 114b, 114c, 116d,
119c, 119d).
Had many species of animals (Critias 115a, 117c, 118c),
including elephants (Critias 115a).
Had large population (army) Critias 119b.
A number of cities/towns, & many villages (Critias 118c,
120d).
Was self-sufficient (Critias 114e, 115c).
Had (great) river(s) (Critias 115a, "118a"? 118c).
Had lakes (Critias 115a, 118c), & marshes/swamps (115a).
Had a number of mines localities (Critias 115a).
Controled a huge extant empire/sphere; "had rule over the
whole island and several others".
Is called a "land" (Critias 115b, Timagenes).
Destroyed by major quake(s) (Timaeus 25d) &
rain/deluge/flood(s) (Timaeus 23b), & leaving seemingly vast
amount/size of mud/shoal (Timaeus 25e, Critias 109a)?
(South) America(s) is large enough to match, and is about the
right size. New World / Americas are the 2nd largest land mass in
world after the Old World (including Europe). Sizes of world's
continents goes Asia, Africa, N America, S America, Antarctica,
Europe, Australia.
[Americas also maybe more surrounding in map centered on
Giza/Cairo?]
There is factual evidence that Andes have been raised higher
and trench lower, which means S America may have been abit larger
area previously?
(Americas are also between Asia in north-east and Libya/Africa
in south/east?)
size: large island landmass (continued) :
"gods ... distributed the whole earth .... Poseidon
receiving for his lot Atlantis" Critias 109b-109d, 113c-113d.
3 large island of Zeus/Jupiter/Ammon,
Poseidon/Neptune/Atlantis, & Hades/Pluto, and 7 smaller
islands of Persephone/Proserpine.
"... 7 islands ... and 3 others of great size ... a 1000
stadia in area...." Proclus.
"island equal in size to Libya or Asia" Tertullian.
"... memory of a larger island" Proclus.
"a large island was swallowed up" Marcellinus.
Kirchir's spurious map shows Atlantis as a large island.
[Sea Peoples came from "the isles and mainland of the
outer circle of water".]
(South) America(s) is large enough to match, and is about the
right size. New World / Americas are the 2nd largest land mass in
world after the Old World (including Europe).
3 large islands in western ocean/sea might possibly match N
America, S America, & Antarctica?
[The continent Maurigosima of king Peiru-un in Chinese may
match America/Peru & Atlantis?]
was an (large) (whole) "island"/nesos.
[Sea Peoples came from "the isles and mainland of the
outer circle of water".]
(South) America qualifies (now/then) as an
"island"(-continent). (Also, if there was a continental
shift then South America may have been even more so an island
before shift?)
("Island" in ancient Greek, Egyptian, Biblical, etc
can be either island, continent, coastland(s), peninsula,
Australia, planet, old world "world island", pangaea.)
[There may be confusion of Atlantis island-continent and
Atlantis royal island capital city?]
was separate "large(r)" "whole" "island"
landmass to "Europe & Libya/Africa", "Asia &
Libya/Africa", "Europe & Asia" in "Plato",
Kircher, etc.
"Larger than (or between) Asia & Libya/Africa".
"all those who dwelt/lived outside/inside the pillars".
"against the whole of Europe & Asia".
[Meropis was lsrger than Europe, Asia & Libya.]
"days sail off from Libya/Africa".
South America is a separate (large) landmass to the Old World.
"sinking"/"swallowing" & disappearance
of nesos/island in the talassa/sea after/during "terrible
quake(s) & flood(s)", pelagos/sea/ocean there impassable
(Timaeus 25d-e).
"for in those days the Atlantic was navigable"
Timaeus 25a.
sunk/overwhelmed by quake, mud prevents from hence to sea/ocean
beyond (Critias 109a).
"can't be geologically impossible", "can't be
land based theories"?
"There was a single spring in ... [Athens] that was
subsequently choked by the earthquakes..." Crit 112e.
"... then still under/beneath the sun..." Critias
115c. / "change in path of the sun".
Philo says "in 1 day & night overwhelmed beneath sea
in extraordinary earthquake(s) and flood(s)".
"... memory of a larger island" Proclus.
"a large island was swallowed up" - Marcellinus?
["a serpent populace was destroyed by a "star falling
from the heavens". Only one survived on an island "destined
to be completely submerged". - Leningrad Papyrus.]
[the Sea Peoples "islands are uprooted and carried away
.... The might of Nun (the Ocean) broke forth and fell in a great
wave upon their towns and villages" (also that the head of
their cities was submerged). ("Their forests and fields are
burnt with fire." "The heat of him has burnt their
countries." "The fire of Sekhmet has burnt the lands of
the 9 bows/arcs." "As mighty fire was prepared before
them." "They had before them a sea of flame.")]
["There will come a time in the late age of the world when
the ocean will relax its bonds over what it holds and land will
appear in its glory Thetis will uncover new continents and Thule
will no longer be at the edge of the world" - Seneca.]
["When the world is pregnant with lies, a secret long
hidden will be revealed" - Odinist prophecy.]
Atlantis can not be both a continent and literally
sunken/submerged because there are none in the oceans (& is
"geologically impossible"). So either Atlantis wasn't a
continent, or the "sinking" isn't literal, or only the
city sank not the whole large island. There is definitely no doubt
that Atlantis was a large land mass (see entry on large size).
There is doubt from the different translations wordings about the
correct interpretation/view/application of all the verses related
to the "sinking". We also know from other things in the
world that things aren't always to be taken over-literally, eg in
Joshua's "halting the sun" it wasn't the sun that
stopped but was the Earth; the Celts "sky fall on head".
If Atlantis "sank/submerged" then either the land
went down (subsided/sank/sunk), or the water went up (submerged,
flood), or the land/water went side ways (Pole Shift, Continental
Shift, axis tilt, expanding earth theory, sea slosh, tidal wave /
"tsunami"). The 3 only-best fit scenarios for Atlantis
"sinking" are Pole Shift, &/or Continental Shift,
&/or only the city "sank"?
Pole Shifts theory has had growing scholarly evidences &
support in recent decades (Hapgood, Einstein, Velikovsky,
Flem-Ath, us, etc). Peru/Tiahuanaco figures in pole shift maps, in
which the area was on the equator in one poles position map.
The Inca picture from the Coricancha has at the top 2 + & X
compass points crosses, which might relate to pole shift?
There is also evidence that Andes raised higher (= Continental
Shift?)
Archaeological evidence of quakes at Tiahuanaco, and of a
"flood" there.
[Also maybe compare seismic upheaval & stars fell to earth
of Washo myth?]
"same faultline as Athens"?
Pole Shift / Crust Displacement? Continental Shift / Plate
tectonics?
"change in path of the sun" (Phaethon)?
"then under the sun".
Pole Shift? Peru was on the equator in one poles position map
in pole shifts maps.
The Inca picture from the Coricancha has at the top 2 + & X
compass points crosses, which might relate to pole shift?
terrible quake(s) & flood(s).
Poseidon is also god of earth & quakes.
Atlas (mountains) holds up earth & sky.
Pole Shift? Or, Continental Shift? And, seas/oceans slosh over
land? Sources give undeniable evidences that the Andes were
quickly raised higher within lifetime of humans & civilization
(refs Velikovsky, Berlitz, Lissner, Fasold, Darwin, etc).
Evidence of quakes in Tiahuanaco includes cracked 'gate(way) of
the sun' ; "broken megaliths"? "blocks
tossed/scattered"?
Cerro santo vilca / Pampa Aullagas has earthquake damage on
west.
Pacha-camac "earth maker"?
There is archaeological evidence of a "Flood" that
flooded Tiahuanaco and south of Titicaca (refs D Fasold, J Allen).
"an avalanche/flood of water, and a sudden upheaval of
unknown nature"; "... many more still lie buried in the
ground under layers of sediment from ... flooding from Lake
Titicaca."
'llullaillaco' llulla + yacu "dirty water" ; "mud
that floats" (Uros)? mud in the Uros floating islands area
near Puno? "... many more still lie buried in the ground
under layers of sediment from ... flooding from Lake Titicaca."
Tiahuanaco is no longer connected with waters of Titicaca as it
once was.
Sargasso sea? "mucky water Bermuda"? sea floor
sediments (Atlantic)? Bermuda triangle? banks/bars/rises in
Atlantic like Brendan's whale?
Caused by pole shift, or by continental shift?
Other American deluge myths may also confirm mud:
aggregations green scum / expanse slippery mud (Zuni);
mud banks (Hopi);
great expanse of fetid mud (Chiriguano);
mud (Crow)? clay (Creek)? red clay (Cree)?
in the "real ocean", not within/inside smaller
Mediterranean sea (Plato/Timaeus, Dio. Sic., Aelian, Timagenes,
Flem-Ath, Spanuth) ; "Those who live on the shores of Okeanos
tell a fable of how the ancient kings of Atlantis...."
(Aelian.)
[the "Sea Peoples" (N-pa-iam) came from "the
isles and mainland of the outer circle of water" / "the
great water circle (sin-wur)".]
is in the ocean not in the Mediterranean sea.
The Pacific Ocean? Water hemisphere is centred on Pacific.
Southern & Eastern Hemispheres have more water than North &
West Hemispheres.
where: (a distant point) in the "Atlantic
ocean/sea/pelagos". ["thalassa"?]
[Herodotus between time of Solon & of Plato has Atlantic in
same place as we have it?]
(Poseidon god of sea/water.)
The real/Atlantic ocean/sea may be on either or both sides of
Atlantis/America, and South America qualifies as being in the
Atlantic Ocean &/or Pacific Ocean &/or Antarctic Ccean
&/or World Ocean.
(Some sources say that the Mediterranean had a number of
pelagoses in it and that the Atlantic pelagos was the one outer
one, which outs Atlantic in the Atlantic ocean outside of the
Mediterranean proper.)
It seems from its use in some sources that the word pelagos can
mean or be used for open/deep ocean/sea and not necessarily just
small/shallow inner/inland sea?
If there was a continental shift then the Atlantic ocean may
have been abit/alot narrower then?
However, the Atlantic pelagos might instead match lake Titicaca
(which was once a sea in ancient times) rather than the Atlantic?
[Atlantis large island had an inland sea? Or, was "near
the ocean"]
Lake Titicaca was once a sea in ancient times, and is one of
the few major inland seas/lakes in the whole world.
The salt / sand in Coipasa/Uyuni / Uruuru/Poopo area? Salinas?
Raised beaches Ancon? Peru fauna related to Pacific fauna (ref
Lissner)?
reason for the invasion; (Phaethon?)
10 (5 x 2) kings of Atlantis large island.
[12 kings of Scheria/Phaeacia.]
[10 countires Mu.]
["13 Greeks descended from Hercules" (Plutarch)?]
[5 stones Stonehenge]
[Compare 10 bows/arcs of world in Egyptian? 12 parts of
Amenti?]
Viracocha adopted 5 pairs of twin sons.
5 figures flanking either (right & left) side of central
figure on Tiahuanaco 'Gateway of the Sun'.
10 months x/of 29 days calendar (Peru)?
9/10 [icons/sephiroth] in Coricancha altar picture?
10 kings Taycanamo dynasty,
10 communities on Amantani,
10 kings Naymlap to Fempellec / "10th king after Naymlap"?
2 [pillars?] flanking spade symbol [Atlas world pillar motif?]
bulls (sacrifice)
little ceramic stone bulls on house rooftops everywhere in lake
Titicaca (ref tourist girls travel photos & captions).
bull god at Chavin (ref Sitchin 'lost realms')?
communities worship bull at Pucara/near Puno on Titicaca?
"bull(s) of Pucara"?
standing on a bull in a stone carving sw of Titicaca?
Raimondi monolith deity's face of a bull (Sitchin)?
El Lanzon anthropomorphised bull face (Sitchin)?
"Alpha"?
seated [bull-like] "deer" figure carrying a club
(Peru, ref Larouse world mythology).
horned animal sacrificing a human (Sipan pottery, ref Reader's
Digest 'Vanished civilisations').
"pottery cow" / cow shaped vase / cow sacrificed &
entrails put in vase (fertility ceremonies, Peru, ref Larousse).
Supay (god of death) costume in festival has horns.
Jim Allen contends that "bulls" = animals = llamas.
type/way of (bull) sacrifice (clubs, slit throat, dismember,
drink blood from gold cups)
llama sacrifice (Allen 'Atlantis in Bolivia').
seated [bull-like] "deer" figure carrying a club
(Peru, ref Larouse world mythology).
horned animal sacrificing a human (Sipan)
cow sacrificed & entrails put in vase (fertility
ceremonies, Peru, ref Larousse).
"Urus ancestors sacrificed by invaders"?
"captives throat cut, blood caught in goblet, offered
goblet to ruler who drank the blood" (Sipan).
sacrifical victims dismembered and strings tied around limbs so
they could be hung up as trophies Sipan.
golden bowls/goblets Chimu.
elephants [African or Asian/Indian or prehistoric American]
South &/or North America has physical finds of remains of
elephants, mastodons, toxodons (refs Jim Allen, Hancock, etc).
Peru/Bolivia had toxodon &/or mastodon, eg: Mastodon at
Tarija. Sea salt petrified mastodon near Bogota.
There are also pictures of elephants in American art. MacKenzie
says one picture is of an "Indian" elephant. Elephants
seen in the Crespi collection.
"age of giant tapirs" (Tiahuanaco)?
"Alpha"?
The orthodox prehistoric ascribed dates are only theory not
proven fact, and they conflict with ancient accounts &
evidences.
"... every kind of animal domesticated and wild.... For
there was plenty of grazing ... for all creatures whose habitat is
marsh, swamp and river, mountain or plain."
"under Titicaca animal varieties not found anywhere else
in world".
"Madidi national park richest biodiversity in world"?
Urquchillay god of animals?
Prehistoric/ancient North &/or South Americas had all the
sorts of animals implied in Atlantis account including elephants,
mastodons, toxodons, horses, giant sloths, sabre toothtigers,
llamas, alpaca, camels, new world monkeys, buffalo, pigs,
[dinosaurs,] puma, coyote, rheas/ratites, etc. There are mass
extinctions sites from Alaska to Mexico, and Bogota to ....
The Atlantis accounts say or(e)ichalc was a metal that was
mined/natural, and it was also smelted/invented (made from
combining calmia/zinc-oxide or pseudarguros/zinc and
chalcos/copper). Oreichalc is said to have been "reddish"
and/or "gleaming/sparkled like fire". One source says
there was a white oreichalc.
[Compare findrine in Celtic.]
Oreichalc means "gold/gleaming/superior, or mountain, +,
chalcos/copper/bronze, or belonging to heaven, or calcos/gold, or
colchicum/iron-ore". [Compare Chang San-feng "alchemist
residing in the mountains" of Chinese?]
aor panchalkon in the Odyssey.
Aurichalcit is "brass" in modern Greek. Oreichalc of
Atlantis is considered by Zangger to be brass. [Ormolu?]
[Bellamy?] said orichalc is "not bronze". Atlantis is
said to have been bronze/brazen/brass age.
Some say orichalc was also name of artifical alloy of gold,
silver & copper [compare Corinthian bronze?]
[Jesus feet were oreichalc/"brass" in
Revelation/Apocalypse, and some temple artefacts were oreichalc in
Josephus.]
[The meaning of name of Tarshish in bible may possibly be
linked with oreichalc?]
the Andes is renowned as being one of the World's few major
locations of copper/tin & gold deposits and mining (Collins
Atlas).
Urcaguary god of metals.
"metalic objects especially copper & bronze at
Tiawanaku".
Evidences that Akapana/Tiahuanco was a copper/bronze/tin/zinc
smelting/mining centre (small green pebbles, retaining
boulders/walls turned green, meaning of name, ref Sitchin 'Lost
Realms').
Titicaca name may be from titi(kala) "(stone/rock of) a
metal - either lead or tin", and may mean "tin/lead
crag/rock"?
"gold is a by-product of copper/zinc production".
Tiwanaku ~ Anaku "tin" (Mesopotamian land)?
Andes ~ antis "copper"?
"red gold fever", Chuquicamata, Peru/Bolivia/Chile
(ref Jim Allen / wiki)?
Tumbaga "gilded-copper/gold-copper" alloy "very
popular among many Andean cultures" (J Allen).
gilded-copper of Sipan (Readers Digest).
AuAgCu of Chavin (Mattievich).
Peruvian "mythology" mentions 3 metals/castes of
gold, silver and copper.
Copper metallurgy Norte Chico.
Crespi collection includes
brass/tin/zinc & some gold (Daniken).
Sheet gold Chavin? sheet metal
Chimu? ? Ternary (copper/arsenic/nickel) bronze I-shaped cramps,
poured molten metal cramps [Tiwanaku]?
The "golden mother"
goddess. Cori "gold".
"unusual alloys" in
America [similar to "unusual alloys" in Africa]
(Jantsang &/or other lost unrecorded source).
"Bronze Age America" (Barry Fell)?
mines/mining
The upside-down spade symbol in Andean art might represent
either mining (metal) or digging (rings)?
had a number of cities/towns/villages (Critias 114e, 118c,
120d).
Peru/Bolivia, Andes, & (South) Americas has lots of ancient
cities/towns/villages (unlike some other proposed "Atlantis"
locations), eg: Tiahuanaco, Cuzco, Juli, Macchu Picchu, Kotosh,
Stede Citades, etc. There are some in the mountains just like
Atlantis Account says.
The 7 dots in Inca picture from Coricancha might be 7 cities or
islands?
high culture/civilisation
Peru/Bolivia/Andes does have lots of archaeological remains of
ancient civilisation thereabouts (unlike some other proposed
"Atlantis" locations) Peruvian is one of the only 2
civilisation areas in Americas (of Peru and Mexico). Andes is the
oldest farming and civilisation site in the whole of the Americas.
Andean high culture is among the few of the oldest civilisations
of the ancient world (along with Egypt, Sumer, Indus, China).
Flem-Ath's book gives evidence that the first farming and
civilisations tended to appear in high places like the Andes.
large (& high density) population (army) (Critias 119b).
Geoglyphs in the altiplano and south of Titicaca suggest there
was more population there then.
[I think i have seen evidences that Tiahanaco/Tiwanaku having
larger/denser population in ancient times, tho I'm not certain?]
"100 circular "domestic units"- or living quarters
- underground at the site".
[I think i have memory and notes somewhere of finds a few years
ago that Amazon had more farming population then (may've been from
National Geographic on twitter)?]
faced south, sheltered from north wind
[Hyperboreans "beyond the north wind"?]
[Hypernotians (Herodotus)?]
The Titicaca/Tinajani/Altiplano/Andes area is partially on
diagonal angle facing south-west. Flem-Ath said that the (w?)
coast of (N?) America faced south in a previous pole shift map.
If there was a continental shift then South America may have
rotated abit?
Inca picture from Coricancha shows at the top two + & X
compass crosses which suggests catastrophic change in compass
points, and also may be connected with the "north wind"
/ "faced south" of Atlantis Account? (Chakana "Southern
Cross".)
In pole shift maps Peru/Bolivia was once on the equator in a
previous pole position map, which might put them beyond the north
wind?
Tiwanaku is on the south side end of Lake Titicaca.
mid-point of longest side of island
Peru/Bolivia is mid-point of longest side of South America (or
mid-point of combined 3 landmasses of Americas & Antarctica).
on the sea side of the island; towards the islands; near the
ocean;
Peru/Bolivia is on the Pacific Ocean/Islands side of South
America, and is on the Titicaca side of South America. Tiahauanco
is near Lake Titicaca (ancient sea), and is near Pacific Ocean.
(fairest, beautiful & fertile) large rectangular plain
(surrounded by mountains) Critias 113d, [114b,] 118b-c, 118c-119b.
Were also other "plains" in Atlantis (Critias 115a).
"at its midpoint 2000 stades in breadth from the coast"
(Lee translation)?
("Atlantis had a network of canals not ever seen/found in
Europe".)
Not many candidates for the plain in the world.
Modern photos of Peru localities give impression of evident
remnant beauty and fertility that would have been more so before
ancient Atlantis/Andes catastrophe and geo-climatic changes. Peru
had a Pacific climate before Andes suddenly rose higher (and
before air/water currents changed).
The large plain of Atlantis is found in Peruvian/Bolivian both
in the physical geography and in local art etc.
In physical geography: "the valley or plateau on which
Tiahuanaco is situated. Nowhere else all around the lake is there
such a level plateau."
"The site of Tiwanaku lies in a broad plain in the rio
Tiwanaku valley one of several that cut back from the southern
edge of lake Titicaca into the huge plateau of the Bolivian
Altiplano."
"the plain of Tiahuanaco".
"the flat depression which was occupied by the lake and
its southern shores".
"at the edge of a great plain basin".
"the whole great tableland of Peru and Bolivia ... with
... its own plains ...."
People say that our Peru/Bolivia area is a "plateau",
which means high flat (like a raised plain).
There is the present Altiplano (with geoglyphs).
"the plain in which the lake [Titicaca] is situated".
The uplifting higher of the Andes may have altered the
geography somewhat.
Local art etc: Large rectangular plain depicted in Inca picture
from the Coricancha matches Atlantis large rectangular plain.
Rehoboth-Ir "broad places of the city/river" of
Genesis 10 seems to match both the plain of Atlantis and the
"altiplano" of Tiahuanaco.
[Also compare map of Raleigh's "Eldorado" (Manoa),
which might confirm that the plain is in (Andean) South America?]
Peru and (North &) South Americas also has other plains eg
Nazca ("grassy") plain, Llanos, Pampas, Planalto, Great
Plains.
ditch surrounding plain
("touching the city at various points" / "to the
city from both directions" Critias 118d-e.)
Ditch surrounding plain seems to be shown in Inca picture from
Coricancha. A picture in the Crespi collection seemingly may also
show the plain with criss-crossing channels too.
Part of the ditch might be the Desaguadero?
(Also, in maps the water comes to central Tiahuanaco from two
sides like described in Atlantis Account?)
"Atlantis had a network of canals not ever seen/found in
Europe".
"geoglyphs" on the southeast & southwest of
Titicaca, and near / north of Tiahuanaco, and in the Altiplano
which match the criss-crossing channels/canals (and population) of
Atlantis plain.
(Sajama lines 22525 sq km, 16000 km, 10/20 km?)
The ancient suka_kollus "(flooded-)raised field(s)"
farming/agriculture system.
Inca picture from the Coricancha shows the plain with
criss-crossing channels. A picture in the Crespi collection
seemingly may also show the plain with criss-crossing channels.
"signs of a network of water channels at the site
[Tiahuanaco]" (2017).
raised fields (Umayo)?
network of canals (Chavin);
system irrigation channels (Moche/Chimu/Chanchan);
irrigation networks (Moche/Sipan)?
Abundant harvests from irrigation system (Moche/Chimu)?
[Also compare the highly fertile floating gardens/canals of the
valley of Mexico.]
2 crops a year climate, soil & agriculture system Critias
119a.
[Hyperborea also had 2 crops.]
The sun & moon / stars & clouds in the Inca picture
from the Coricancha are said to stand for "summer &
winter".
= The sun & moon in picture of waruwaru agricultre. =
The ancient suka_kollus "(flooded-)raised field(s)"
summer & winter farming/agriculture system of the area, which
"produced impressive yields".
Abundant harvests from irrigation system (Moche/Chimu)?
Peru had a Pacific climate before Andes suddenly rose higher
(and before air/water currents changed). Tiahuanaco was on the
equator in one pole shift map.
canal/river
("sail right upto".)
("touching the city at various points" / "to the
city from both directions" Critias 118d-e?)
the/a canal in Tiahuanaco maps/diagrams? or Rio Tiwanaku? or
the Desaguadero? "Geoglyphs"?
"... the water flowed into canals which led to lake
Titicaca." "It [water/canal] lead from there to wharfs
at the site's north and thence to the lake." "the
artificial canal (or moat), some 100 feet wide, that surrounded
the whole site" .
The canal seems to be shown on the Colango stone, and in the
Inca picture from the Coricancha.
high
Peru/Bolivia area in the Andes is high. (Although evidence is
that the area has been raised higher at some time in ancient
times, some parts must/would still have been somewhat high then.)
highest/sheer mountains (surrounding plain)
The Andes are among the only few candidates in the whole world
for highest mountains (others including Himalayas, and the early
Appallachians) . The Andes do surround the plain area.
Atlas mountains
Andes, which well match nature of Atlas mountains.
(Illampu/Sorata and/or Illimani?) The Andean area well fits being
close to the stars/heavens/sky. The other "Atlas mountains"
are in farthest north-western Africa which implies Atlas must be
at least that far west or further. Atlas mtns are in Africa not in
Spain/Europe, which implies South (Atlantic/America) not North
(Atlantic/America). Atlas mountains position in farthest nw Africa
are a similar analogous mirror copy of the Andes position in
farthest western South America. The Atlas world pillar motif is
prominent in Andean art (spade symbol). Position in far south west
fits Atlas holding up earth & heavens. Sitchin suggested the
mountains of Meskiaggaseir (in Sumerian king list) are the Andes,
and this may match Poseidon of Atlantis?
"cliff(s)" (Spanuth's misinterpretatin of Critias
118b)?
/ "sheer/precipitous".
the "crest" &/or plateau Kimsa Chata ("3
mountains") &/or Puna on the right/east side, &/or
the similar ridge/flanks/peak/height Quimsa-Chata &/or
Serrania Machaca on the left/west side? (Kimsa Chata is 15 km or
10-12 miles southeast of/from [Tiahuanaco or Titicaca]?)
[There are some areas with cliffs around Titicaca.]
Cliff(s) may be shown in Coricancha picture ("Ilyapa"/"Rayo"),
and in Sillustani inscription (wedge shape)?
50 stades (9.2 km, or "5 (& a 1/2) miles")
distance between city-centre and sea (= radius of the circular
royal island capital city). (22 km diameter.)
the distance between Tiahuanaco and Titicaca now and/or then
seems to be roughly around about the same exact distance. Sources
attest that there have been changes in the local geography, eg
they say that Titicaca used to extend to Tiahuanaco and/or that
the central city used to be linked with Titicaca waters, so the
geographical distance was abit different then to now and the exact
distance then is uncertain. Even modern sources give different
present distance(s) measurements.
Tiahuanaco described as "vast area", "several
square miles in area"; and/or, greater Tiahuanaco (including
Pumapunku etc) stretches "for miles".
"[Tiahauanco citadel] site encompasses at least 650
hectares (1675 acres)". "PumaPunku area ... includes
extensive ruins & a terraced mound faced with stone blocks,
extends at least 14 hectares".
Kimsa Chata/quimsa-chata is 15 km or 10-12 miles southeast
of/from [Tiahuanaco or Titicaca]?
Tiahuanaco is now 10/12/13 miles/km from the lake.
One source says 13 miles from Titicaca.
Another source says "Tiahuanaco 12 miles south of
Titicaca"?
Another source says Tiahuanaco 10 miles from Titicaca.
The stones of central Tiahuanaco were "transported tens of
miles from the nearest quarries" "some ten miles away".
A quarry 10 km away [from Tiahuanaco].
Tiahuanaco city is "6.5 sq km maximum".
One source says a few miles from Titicaca.
concentric circles/rings royal "island" capital city
of Atlantis (Critias 113c-114a, (114e,) 115c-116b, 116d, (117a,)
117c-118b, 118b, 118d-e, 119c-d, 120d?)
At least 1 or 2 or 3 of the rings/circles of the city are
attested in the ground of the physical site (maps and
descriptions), and in the name of the city, and in local art.
Tiahuanaco has a number of different parts (Akapana &
Kalasasya & Kantatyita in centre, Pumapunku area, and
Laukurmata near lake Titicaca).
1 or 2 of the rings are seen in maps of Tiahuanaco by
Posnansky, Sitchin, Alford.
"... surrounded by a moat, and the earth and clay which
had been excavated from the moat ...", "... the canals
which surround the site ...", "the artificial canal (or
moat) ... that surrounded the whole site". The "American
Stonehenge". "signs of a network of water channels at
the site".
Books mention evidences that Tiahuanaco &/or the Akapana
was once connected with the water of Titicaca, and was a seaport.
There are evidences of quakes and of a flood at Tiahuanaco, the
site is described as "... many more still lie buried in the
ground under layers of sediment...", and covered in lava, so
the geography is going to be a little bit different now than then.
"There were two Tiahuanaco's, one the visible ruins, the
other the subterranean and invisible."
Tiwanaku has matches for the distances of the 3 rings (see the
rows on the distance between city & sea, and the size of the
central island).
Jim Alen's site at Poopo also has rings.
Tiwanaku is also named Taypicala/Taypi-kala "stone/rock in
the middle/centre", and is "considered middle of
[the/their] world" by locals. "Its ceremonial core...".
The upside-down spade symbol in Peruvian art may stand either
for mining or for [Poseidon] digging/boring the rings? (Compare in
myth the divine/magic/golden wand/staff "sink/sank into the
earth/ground", &/or, "strike/struck a/the stone"?)
"4 walls surrounded by a moat which was to create the
image of a scared island / holiest of shrines" (Tiahuanaco
article). Palacio enclosed by double ring of earthworks
(Tiahuanaco/Calasasaya)?
concentric circles city (continued)
Other Peru sites also have similar names/natures:
("100 circular "domestic units"- or living
quarters - underground at the site [Tiahuanaco]".)
Kenko "twisting channels".
Chingana "labyrinth".
3 carved channels between Ilyapa temple & rainbow temple
(Cuzco)?
The concentric circles found in local art are just extra
confirmation that the city was in the area. Eg:
The globe/circle/"earth-symbol/Pachamama" &
"rainbow/arch" in Inca picture from the Coricancha.
The "spiral" in Sillustani inscription.
In a Chimu/Mochica mask the Atlas pillar rises from the city
rings.
Pumapunku inscription shows the concentric circles. "geometric
.... circles and ovals") drawings from the gateway of the
sun.
The ringed city is certainly shown in a Chanchan/Chimu
inscription. Concentric seen in Calango stone.
The concentric circles city is maybe also shown in the
head/face of the female figure in Crespi collection? (Maybe also
compare concentric circles in one or two other pieces of the
Crespi collection.)
Uru/Chipaya/Coipasa village concentric organisation.
Concentric circles also in the "3 windows" drawing of
Salcamayhua?
The "Radiating cross", petroglyph, northwest of
Titicaca?
[The hats of Peruvians might connect with the small hill and
concentric city?]
(concentric circles) capital city of Atlantis (continued)
There are also stories of a lost underwater city 'Wanaku' in
lake Titicaca, the name of which links with the name of Tiwanaku.
Huinaymarka (the southern part of Titicaca) means "eternal
city" (like Rome), is next door to Tiahuanaco. [Juli is also
....]
Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku has been called "the cradle of
American man", and "the Baalbek of the New World"
(refs Posnansky, Alford, Sitchin). "I would say that i
consider this the oldest antiquity in all of Peru." "...
the most ancient place of any i have yet described."
Tiwanaku is located between the 2 main peaks of the mountains
(ref Sitchin). "Nowhere else in the world, perhaps, can a
panorama so diversified and grand be obtained from a single point
of view."
Tiahuanaco is located within centre of geoglyphs around
southern Titicaca & northern Altiplano.
The candelabra at Paracas may indicate Atlantis city is in Peru
area?
One or a couple/few other scholars have also located Atlantis
city at Tiahuanaco, or Poopo, or Cuzco (Fasold, Posnansky, Allen.)
Tiwanaku is on the "route of Viracocha", and the line
of the "3 windows", which extends at most from Tiwanaku
to Quito.
Tiahuanaco & lake Titicaca are inversely analogous to Eridu
city & Persian Gulf.
Tiahuanaco is "on a ley line", and in the supposed
"world grid".
Tiahuanaco was on equator in pole shift map.
Eldorado/Manoa may match Atlantis and Tiahuanaco? (Akakor might
link with Akapana?)
Kirchir's map maybe indicates that the capital was in either
Venezula or Peru?
Great city of Asshur of Genesis 10 matches both Atlantis city
and Tiahuanaco.
central city island 5 stades diameter
The central core island or "greater metropolis" of
Tiahuanaco is almost "2 x 1 miles".
The "saced city of Tiahuanaco covered 2 square miles".
Pumapinku is "almost a mile to the south-west" of the
centre.
Tiwanaku "sits in a 3 miles width trough".
Tiahuanaco city is "6.5 sq kms maximum".
One source says a few miles from Titicaca.
("PumaPunku area ... includes extensive ruins & a
terraced mound faced with stone blocks, extends at least 14
hectares".)
The temple/sanctuary of Poseidon (Critias 119d, 120a, 120c),
one stadium x half stadium in size (Critias 116e), with "walls
... lined with oreichalc" (Critias 116e).
[A stade/stadium is either 157/150 m (Greece), 185/180 m / 606
ft (Roman), 177/170 m (Attic), 192 m (Olympic), 209/200 m
(Egyptian), 211 m (Greece). Richter proposed that "stade"
was for Egyptian khet which is 52/50/55 m.]
"... range of the temple of Poseidon...." Critias
119d, 119e, 120a.
"There was an altar, too, which in size and workmanship
corresponded to the rest of the work...." Critias 116e.
The royal Palace (117e), in the habitation of the god (Critias
115d), on the island (Critias 116a), in the interior of the
citadel/acropolis (Critias 116d), was "a marvel to behold for
size & beauty" (Critias 115d).
Kalasas(a)ya large "temple" 120 x 130 m / 300 ft long
/ 400 x 450 ft. (in central island/city).
the throne room 160 x 130 ft / [100 x 85 ft].
the hall 45 x 22 ft?
"the monolithic gateway of the temple [at
Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku] is the largest example of its kind in the
world".
Pumapunku/Pumapinku huge "temple" 167 x 116 m (&
5 m high), + 20 m wide projections corners extending 27 m, +
terrace 6 x 38 m. (in inner ring of island/city?) "Puma
Punku area ... includes extensive ruins & a terraced mound
faced with stone blocks, extends at least 14 hectares".
Akapana 257 x 197 m (& 16.5 high) (in central island/city).
the "semi-subterranean temple" or Kantatayita temple
(in central island/city).
"a large underground plaza & 2 platforms considered to
be part of a pyramid"
"near the Kalasasaya temple, another buried stone
construction, possibly a temple".
Lukurmata "temple" (in outer ring of island/city,
near lake Titicaca).
[Jim Allen argues for half a stade since Peru/Bolivia had base
20 not base 10. Some suggest that the Peruvians had a measurment
called luk'a which is 60 cm.]
The great city of Asshur of Genesis 10 seemingly matches both
Tiahuanaco and Atlantis city. Nineveh "dwelling of
fish/Ninus" may match the Akapana, or Pumapunku and the
temple of Poseidon? Calah may match the Kalasas(a)ya?
There are stone blocks with lines of nail holes, groves &
niches at Tiahuanaco, indicating metal sheets lining/coating.
Compare the Temple of the sun, or Coricancha "golden
palace" sheathed in gold plates, or golden temple covered
with gold plates of Cuzco?
low hill/mountain dwelling of Clito in centre:
"... there was a mountain/hill, not very high on any side.
In this mountain/hill there dwelt ... Cl(e)ito. ... enclosed the
hill on which she dwelt all around...." Critias 113d-e.
"The palaces in the interior of the citadel were
constructed in this wise : In the center was a holy-temple/shrine
dedicated/sacred to Cleito & Poseidon, which remained
inaccessible, and was surrounded by a[n enclosure/barrier of]
gold(en)...." Critias 116d.
the 'Akapana' mound / "pyramid" / "hill made by
hands of men", which is very prominent in maps of Tiahuanaco,
and is pretty unique in the whole world, is a great match for the
low hill of Atlantis. Its C-shape seems to me vulvic like
clitoris? (Compare the African story of Amma who "circumcised
the earth goddess, whose clitoris was an anthill.) [There is also
another similar hill/mountain at/by/near Juli in middle west
Titicaca.] Further archaeological details of the Akapana given in
Sicthin's & Alford's books are also similar to details of the
low hill in the Atlantis Account. The Akapana seemingly has an
enclosure in pictures. Also fits the "inaccessible"?
The Akapana / Atlantis hill is also maybe seen depicted in the
Inca picture from the Coricancha, in the concentric circles city
on the left side.
(Or, "the Puma Punku are ... includes ... a terraced mound
faced with stone blocks". Or, "found ... a large
underground plaza & 2 platforms considered to be part of a
pyramid"?)
Maybe also compare Jiskairumoko/Moko "small hill"?
red, white & black
red permian rocks at Tiwanaku?
red white black stones wall/building
Llachon?
red, white, black stones at Pampa Aulagas (Jim Allen)?
Kunturwasi red, black, yellow, pink, malachite green (ref
Wikipedia)?
"triple striped red yellow green" [Titicaca]?
red, white & black traditional dress code Taquile?
red white & blue steps at church of Paucarcolla?,
the Bolivian flag (Jim Allen)?
Paucar "multicoloured"?
3 bands (gold, silver, copper) in mountains by Titicaca?
Peruvian "mythology" mentions 3 eggs/castes of gold,
silver and copper.
[AuAgCu of Chavin?]
"Pottery recovered from Las Ánimas complex [Norte
Chico, north Chile] has linear designs painted with white, red or
black."
[And abit further up the Andes: tierra Dentro red, white, black
(Colombia)?]
2 hot & cold springs
Hot springs are a feature of fault lines of the world. Peru is
near a fault line.
Tiahuanaco itself had "several springs some of which show
vestiges of having been enclosed and provided with conduits of cut
stone in ancient times".
Peru is renowned for hot springs. Examples of hot/cold
springs/fountains in Peru/Bolivia include: Medicinal underground
waters Arica? [Arica "eternal spring"?] Putina hot
springs. hotsprings chivay / chivay thermal baths.
medicinal/curative fountain of youth Carhuaz? water
fountains/baths Pisac? 'Fountain of the incas', or sacred fountain
Posada del Inca / Island of the Sun?
hotsprings of Ayacucho, Cajamarca, colca lodge, near Macchu
picchu/aguas calientes, Atacama.
Other places in nearby areas &/or elsewhere in South
America with hot/cold springs include: Tulcan Ecuador, &/or
Salinas Ecuador; "275 in Chile" (including the largest
at Liquine, 7 lakes, Atacama, Puyehue lake); Rio Hondo, &
Cacheuta Argentina.
cisterns/pipes/conduits/drains
Tiahuanaco is pointed out in a number of sources as having
water cisterns/drains/pipes (refs Daniken etc). Eg "elaborate
drainage systems & conduits", "... enclosed and
provided with conduits of cut stone in ancient times".
[Tambomachay aqueducts?]
baths
chivay thermal baths. Tambomachay aqueducts/bath/spa? water
fountains/baths Pisac?
Atlantis had 1200 boats/ships/triremes.
"Atlanteans were oustanding sailors" (Spanuth's
impression of/from Critias 117, 119).
[Sea Peoples were from "the isles and mainland of the
outer circle of water" / "the great water circle
[sin-wur]", and had "a great fleet of sailed-ships with
arching prows at each end, in the shape of bird-heads.... ... the
sailed ships of the Peleset were overwhelmed by the slave-oared
Egyptian river craft...." South American fan palm in pictures
of Sea Peoples?]
["the Phaeacians had the fastest ships, clippers that
carry them across far-flung seas (Odyssey 7.)"
"the Phaeacians were the best sailors, Poseidon made them
a sailor folk (Odyssey 7.)"]
There is evidence that Tiahuanaco was once a great sea port.
"Sea ports in the Andes" (Velikovsky). Reed boats of
Titicaca? Dragon-boat racing Puno? [Tiahuanaco/Peru had "extensive
trade routes"?]
An ocean going ship of exotic design found while digging mines
on Peruvian coasts (ref SB Cox).
The "candelabra" at Paracas may be a landmark for
sailors?
Peruvians had "sea-worthy rafts" (ref Readers Digest
'Vanished Civs').
The legend of Naymlap tells of the arrival of a great fleet of
balsa-reed boats (Chimu/Mochica, refs Sitchin, Pears).
Chimu (Chan chan) pottery figure of "reed boat"
titled "life on the ocean wave" (ref Readers Digest
'Vanished Civs')?
10 ships Paraiba inscription (refs Kolosimo)?
The ancient version of the Panama canal at Tehuantepec (ref SC
Compton 'Exodus Lost')?
[Popul Vuh says the 1st race explored the 4 corners of world.]
Azores statue pointing west with word cati/cates which means
"this way" in Quechua.
Thor Heyerdahl's voyages.
"Maps of the ancient sea kings". Piri Reis map shows
Americas.
[Maybe consider: "Caesar records that the greatest naval
engagment he ever undertook was against the Celts of Gaul &
Britain. In his De Bello Gallico he writes of a combined Celtic &
British fleet of 220 ships .... Caesar describes the ships as
deep-water vessels able to traverse the oceans, 'upon the vast
open sea', towering above the Roman ships." Plus, have we
remains proof of these ships?] [Also compare Vikings, &
Polynesians.]
[May be connections of Atlanteans with the Ships of Kittim?]
pictographs with phonetic/alphabetic script on the Colango
stone (Sitchin)?
skin parchment with hieroglyphic writing, & such writing
confirmed known at Copacabana (refs: von Tschudi, Sitchin).
Fuente magna "proto-Sumerian" writing (J Allen).
Peru had writing before quipus? (They wrote on banana leaves
from reign of 3rd sovereign before flood until 63rd Inca who
burned and forbade all writing.)
Petroglyphs of Uru-name Andean gold centres, similar to
Sumerian (Sitchin)?
Book of wars / book of leaves among Pano Indians.
Amazon inscriptions (Honore, Kolosimo).
Bailey's 'God Kings & Titans' book has American scripts
tables?
name Atlantis/Atlas/Atlantic?
Shu = "Atlas". Ru = "Atlas".
[Antilla?] [Italus?]
Atlantis Account is Greek translation of Egyptian translation
of Atlantean original, so the name(s) might not be true original
ones?
Tiahuanaco / Peru / South America does have some possible
corresponding names similar to Atlas/Atlantis such as: Atalaia
near Cuzco; isla Allan in the Urus/Uros area; god/king Atau;
Tahuantinsuyo / Antisuyo/Antisuco / antis/Andes; Nazca; "Alpha"?
[Biblical Tiras might match Atlantis & Peru?]
Other possibly connected candidates further afield in Americas
include: Atlatona; Atl/Atonatiuh; Aztlan.
The Atlas world pillar motif is common in Peruvian, and even
rises from 2 circles city in one picture, which is as good as
having name Atlas/Atlantis in words.
"Atlantis" in Kirchir's map is very similar to South
America in its position, shape, rivers, etc.
Date: Atlantis has a "900(0)"/"800(0)" yrs.
[Tartessos was 7000 yrs.]
(pillars of) Hercules was 17000 yrs or 900 yrs before Amasis
II.
[Moeris (12th dyn) was also 900 yrs before Amasis. Ptah was
also 9000 yrs.]
["Hyperboreans lived a 1000 years" = 100 yrs.]
The Atlantis Account does not say how long after the invasion
that the "sinking" was.
Atlantis Account implies it was the "3rd deluge"? The
[9 days] deluge of Deucalion? Phaethon?
Atlantis can't be too far in time from Athens & Sais (which
weren't arround in 9000 bc).
Atlantis Account implies it was in the bronze/brazen age?
The name Libya first appears in time of Merneptah (19th dyn).
[Shoal of Sesostris?]
[The Sea Peoples of time of 19th & 20th dynasty of Egypt
are considered ny some scholars to match Atlanteans. The 19th
dynasty seems to match time of Shishak/Zerah (1000s/900s bc) in
bible.]
Atlantis is supposed to be between Cecrops (1556-1506) &
Erechtheus (1397-1347).
Historians believe Iron Age was heralded by Dorians / Sea
Peoples / Atlanteans?
Peruvian is the oldest agriculture & civilisation area in
Americas, and one of the few oldest in the world.
Tiahuanaco's age ranges in & between various sources from
15000/15,538 bc, to "12,000th yr", to 10500 bc, to 4500
bc, to 1580 bc, &/or 1200 bc, to 300 bc-ad 300, to 7th cent
ad.
[Akakor "10,481 bc"?]
[Also compare Mayan 8498 yrs/bc date?]
'chamak-pacha' "period of darkness" or "night
without/withno sunrise/dawn for 20 hours" was ca
1400/1394/1391 bc [parallel to the sun stood still long day of
Joshua ca 1393 bc in the bible].
"Bronze Age America" (Barry Fell)?
South American fan palm in Assyrian picture of Toakkari Sea
Peoples? American cocaine & tobacco in New Kingdom mummies?
[Mexican murex in ancient Old World?]
Tiahuanaco was on equator in one of the maps of poles shifts.
was way to many "Other Islands"; "towards the
islands";
[Antilla/Antilles?]
["7 islands of Proserpine".]
2 islands in Kirchir's msp.
the Pacific Islands? Caribbean? Antarctica was 2 islands?
[The 7 dots in the Inca picture fromthe Coricancha?]
[Azores statue associated with word meaning "this way"
in Quechua?]
was way to a surrounding whole "Opposite Continent"
Antarctica? North America? Asia? Australia?
South America is centered further east than North America.
Pacific is surrounded by North America & Asia &
Australia.
Indus Seal shows 2 feet & a boat, and Indian has 3 world
steps of Vishnu. The boat might represent Atlantis/Poseidon?
Hrozny suggested that the 2 feet are east and west ends of same
world landmass?
Antarctica surrounds world ocean in map centred on north pole.
must be attested in other historical other than Plato sources.
[Sea People may match Atlanteans?]
Inca picture from the Coricancha surely depicts in it a number
of the details mentioned in Atlantis Account including the large
plain.
Great city of Asshur of Genesis 10 pretty certainly seems to
match both Tiahuanaco and Atlantis capital city.
The Sumerian king list's "Meskiaggaseir went up into the
mountains" has been linked with the Andes, and is similar to
Poseidon in Atlantis Account?
Kirchir's spurious map of Atlantis seems to match South
America.
good if it is not just me but also other scholars who agree
There are a few other scholars have also located Atlantis in
more or less the same area as us for various evidences-reasons
including: Peru/Bolivia/Andes - Posnansky, Mattievich, Weidner &
Bridges, J Bailey, Donneley, Siebert, Dav Fasold, Dav Antelo,
Zarate, M Ozorio, Jim Allen; South America - Frank Joseph, Damo
B, Desiree (partly), Ed Alex, T Morrison, Zanne?
Our final thesis is also very close to Flem-Ath's except that
he didn't place Atlantis in South America but in Antarctica not
far away next door.
Some others didn't suggest our location as Atlantis but they do
give evidences that Tiahuanaco is a very majorly important site:
Tiahuanaco has been called the "Baalbek of the New World"
(Sitchin), and the most important site and original home city of
all the Americas (Kolosimo). I was told by someone that it is "on
a ley-line".
In Beltitz's survey of 270 authorities, 97 have Atlantis in
Atlantic [as we do], 21 have it in N or S or both Americas [as we
do], 15 in Africa [which ours is next to]
Kirchir's map of Atlantis has it in the Atlantic like us and it
actually looks very similar to South America.
KR Bolton's dowsing result for Atlantis which i witnessed
result was in the South Atlantic which is right by South America.
It is claimed that Herodotus after Solon & before Plato
said the known world was only Europe, Asia & Libya.
[3 large islands of Zeus/Jupiter/Ammon,
Poseidon/Neptune/Atlantis, & Hades/Pluto, + 7 islands of
Proserpine.]
My sources say Herodotus said his contemporaries were wrong
that the world consisted of Europe, Asia & Libya (and my owned
translation of Herodotus seemed to say the same)?
Herodotus was long after Atlantis sinking. Atlantis was a
separate large landmass that had wholly vanished.
The Egyptians had 10 bows/arcs of world.
Popul Vuh says the 1st race explored the 4 corners of the
Earth.
"Maps of the ancient sea kings" including the Piri
Reis map show the Americas and Antarctica.
Hindus knew world was a sphere thus having no top.
Hyperborean Abaris "went around the world".
Creationists give evidence that bible implies knowledge that
earth a sphere.
There are many evidences of ancient pre-Columbian contacts
between the New and Old Worlds. Eg: 3 pyramids of Sipan look
similar to 3 pyramids of Giza.
king was the oldest.
["Hyperboreans lived a 1000 yrs".]
[Arganthonius of Tartessos ruled/lived 80 yrs.]
"One objection often presented to such an extensive Inca
period is the unusually long length of life necessitated for the
rulers. Several are over a hundred years old. The argument would
be valid if it were possible to demonstrate that human beings
cannot live that long! But human beings do often live to be well
over one hundred years of age. For example, long after Moses wrote
that the life span of man centers about 70 years, individuals are
still recorded as living past 120 years. In those days the
Peruvian highlands were virgin, and fit for vigorous living. In
some instances the length of reign is due to birth of a son in the
Inca's old age -- or to a birth of an heir after the death of a
predecessor." (Ref Herman Hoeh.)
Andes is one of the few areas in world renowned for longevity
(ref Gadd).
[Old king in Andean pictures in Sitchin's 'Lost Realms'?]
Atlas (person/mountians name/nature).
[Shu = "Atlas". Ru = "Atlas".]
Atlas mountains in nw Africa mirror Andes in S America.
Atau? Atlas world pillar motif common in Peruvian (the spade
symbol).
Chibchacun bear earth on his back (Chibcha/Columbian). Rairu's
father Karu "sky maker" (South American).
Apu mountain god?
Next door: [Ru = "Atlas"? Moai ~ Atlas pillar motif?]
Poseidon/Neptune (person/island name/nature)
Viracocha? Tata Pancho (about 10 on crown)? Manoa? Naymlap?
[Enmerkar of Sumerian has been linked with Andes and may link
with Poseidon of Atlantis?]
[King Peiru-un of Maurigosima may be linked with Atlantis &
America/Peru?]
Next door: [Tangaroa?] [Olokun?]
Atlantis became fallen/degenerate and arrogant
sons of light versus "giants deprived of light"?
The art in the Crespi collection is maybe abit like decadent
baroque/rococo?
[Also compare next door in Mexico the Aztecs favoured ugly not
beautiful?]
Atlantis references include: Atlantipedia; Spanuth; Flem-Ath;
Fasold; Jim Allen; Sonchis/Solon/Critias/Timaeus/Plato (Atlantis
Account); J Kirchir; C Berlitz; I Donnelley; Atlantis Rising;
Atlantis Online; Nikas; HG Wells; Chadderton; HS Bellamy; Alford;
J Nienhuis; G Hancock; K Bolton (Germanic Atlantis); Bacon (New
Atlantis); A Incendium; S Bambrough; E Zangger (Flood from
Heaven); SB Cox; Dio Sic; Lee trans; Philo; Milos Atlantis
Conference; Zanne; Nataf; etc.
[Scheria/Phaeacia refs: Homer (Odyssey); Spanuth; Zangger;
etc.]
[Sea Peoples refs: Spanuth; J Jewell (Aryans in the New World);
etc.]
Tiahuanaco / Peru references include: Readers Digest (Vanished
Civlizations); Sitchin (Lost Realms); Fasold (Discovery of Noah's
Ark); HS Bellamy (Atlantis Myth); Posnansky; Alan Alford (Gods of
the New Millenium); Charles Berlitz; Pears; Larousse World
Mythology; Atlantipedia; Jim Allen; Flem-Ath; Ivar Lissner; G
Hancock; Kolosimo (Timeless Earth); E Sykes; J Bailey; Crespi
collection; Google earth; "Indiana Jones"; P Honore;
Mattievich; Frank Joseph; T Morrison; Inca picture from the
Coricancha; Sillustani inscription; Colango stone; Collins atlas;
Parker; von Tschudi; Hoeh; Gadd; Velikovsky; Darwin; tourist girls
photos & captions; wikipedia; Daniken; SB Cox;
condoramericano.com ; archaeology news network; D Cologne /
Scorpion; etc.
South America refs: Fitzgerald-Lee ('Great Migration'); Piri
Reis map; etc.
America(s) refs: B Fell (Bronze Age America, America BC); SC
Compton (Exodus Lost); Popul Vuh; etc.
From this table we see that there are only 1 to 5 points of "doubt" that people have that still remain not fully answered, they are : the distance, the war, the invasion, the reason for invasion, the boats. (Plus maybe the dense population, and the "sinking"?) These remaining doubts people have had don't prove or disprove anything against our thesis evidences, they are just incredulous sceptics "missing links" doubts. Otherwise we have quality and quantity matches evidences that leave no doubt that this is Atlantis found. Note this is just a first edition, we have more info to add in to the rows/boxes that are already in table so far, and we have more rows to add in more details of Atlantis (eg blue robes, woodland, etc).
Edited by Arthur-Robin - 22-Jun-2017 at 07:39
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Too much info to digest quickly, but much of it mirrors what I believe.
The "city of Atlantis" was only that, a city situated in an area making it a trade hub.
The Ten Kingdoms were in South America. It's the only area that meets the criteria that Plato laid out, red and black stones, large plane etc.
When the sudden sea level rise happened, it pushed the coastlines of both continents back by several hunred miles.
There's much evidence that there was a major earthquake at about the same time as the sinking of Atlantis. It caused a major uplift that moved the shoreline of Titicaca 12 miles from Tiawanaku. "Hancock".
As the ruins still exist, it's not as sexy as looking for a city that totally vanished.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
There are fatal flaws that try to place Atlantis in the New World or any other far off place.
a. Plato reports the ancient Egyptian priest said that the Atlanteans were ancestors of the Greeks, which meshes well with Thera, but pretty much eliminates places like South America
b. There is no evidence any ancient pre-Columbian transatlantic trade. If we can find the remains of a few Viking fishing settlements in Canada, then it is is very hard to see how evidence of a might transatlantic empire is so completely lacking. The "Columbian" exchange was one of the greatest agricultural exchanges in history, and yet there is no pre-Columbus evidence. We all know how quckly the native Americans adapted to the wild horses that accidently escaped the Spanish, so you are saying that this mythlogical Atlantean civilization didn't import any horses, donkeys, chickens, pigs, wheat or iron working into the New World, or any corn, potatoes, chiles, sweat potatoes, etc., into the Old World? I just don't buy the fact that these mythological Atlanteans were not as smart as the Spanish, and did not recognized the value of the unique New World crops, or the Old Word fooda and animals lacking in the New World.
If you assume that Plato or his sources exaggerated, as ancient sources often did, then Thera becomes a good match to Atlantis. Divide the legth of time by 10, the size of the island by 10, etc., and Thera starts looking good. Any civilization on Thera, like Crete, is liking to have some relationship to the Greeks, and Egyptian priest, Plato source, would be more likely to know about an ancient cibilization based on Thera a 1000 years ago than an ancient one in South America 10,000 years ago.
The evidence that Atlantis capital city is Tiahuanaco is overwhelming. Any supposed "flaws" are able to be answered or have been already. I don't remember the Account saying clearly anywhere that the Atlanteans were ancestors of the Greeks. It does say they fought with them, and that they conquered up to Libya or Egypt and Tyrrhenia or Greece. There is a theory that the Dorians are from Atlantean Sea Peoples.
Atlantis can not be Thera for many reasons including: - wrong size (Atlantis was very large) - wrong distance (Atlantis was most remote). So Atlanteans were "invaders" just from so close place as Thera or Malta? - wrong "sinking" disaster - wrong direction - no large plain - no remains of concentric city extensive civilisation - wrong date? (Thera date is disputed & uncertain) etc.
There is heaps of evidences for pre-Colkumbian trans-Atlantic contacts. Eg see books by Pierre Honore, Nigel Davies, Barry Fell, Sitchin (Lost Realms), Donald MacKenzie, SC Compton, etc. Heliolithic [Megalithic] culture is found many places all around the world including Peru. American cocaine & tobacco was found in Egyptian mummies.
It is not safe to assume anything like exageration. Only by objectively looking to see if there are (or aren't) any quality matches with real history.
The date was not literally 9000 years. There was no Sais or Athens or Mycenaean Greeks or Bronze etc then.
Yes Red Clay that seems a fairly good summary view. It does seem that the capital city [Tiahuanaco] was the main "Atlantis" though Atlantis was also the whole large island [(South) America]. Though not sure that it was sea-level rise. Evidence seems to suggest a pole shift (and/or maybe a continental shift?)
My current very tentative theory is that the "Aryans" [Kittim? Tiras?] come from Atlantis. ("Aryan" as blond & blue not necessarily as in Indo-European.) in The beast in Revelation seems to match. Fits with the ideas of Serrano, Rosenberg, Thule Soc, etc.
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Could you provide us with just a couple of google earth bookmarks? I'd like to see what you identify as an "owl".
Esp. as in all the years, I've never seen or heard of either the owl glyphs or "treasure rooms".
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and if your doing things like connecting Native Americans to Freemasonry, you best have a pile of it, or folks will think it's "just a pile of...."
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Did you post accidentally in the wrong thread/topic? I can't see any connection? (The table in this thread above gives heaps of evidences for Tiahuanaco.)
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Your right, I did post in the wrong thread. I've been having so much trouble posting, I was focused on the process.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Atlantis capital city is certanly Tiahuanaco/Tiwankau not in Thera/Santorini. However, it is looking possible that Scher(i)a/Phaeacia of Homer's 'Odyssey' may be Thera/Therasia (Skaros/Phira/Perissa?) (I know that Thera means "beast/animal", and Scher(i)a may mean "market", but it still looks possible that Scher(i)a matches Thera in nature with various possibilities for match of the name. Interesting that Thera means beast, while evidence is that the number of the name of the sea beast (Therion or Trijon) of Revelation/Apocalypse may match Atlas/Atlantis.) I have yet to further properly investigate this Scheria/Thera match possibility.
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Sorry it looks like Scheria/Phaeacia probably isn't & can't be Thera afterall. (As we said, Atlantis city is definitely Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku, but we were not sure of location of Scheria/Phaeacia.)
The island of Calypso / Ogygia (which can means "flood") the "navel" of the ocean is probably either Antarctica ("the world navel"), or Easter Island (Rapa Nui "navel"), or Medway, or Azores (San Miguel called "navel of ocean"), or Gozo (Malta), or Crete.
Candidates (of other people &/or of our own) for Scher(i)a/Phaeacia in nature or name have included: Atlantis [Tiahuanaco] (Spanuth, Zangger); Sekhet-Aaru / Pet (Amenti/Urani); Sanquira / Elsikuri; Meski-agga-sheir / Seir; San Lorenzo / Olman (Mexico); Bimini/Andros (Bahamas); Skraelings; Corvo (Azores); Sera (Irish/Egyptian); Hyperborea (Spanuth); Skara Brae / Faeroes / Picts; Heligoland / Frisians / Amber Island (Spanuth); Tartessos; Hesperia / Jerez/Baetica / Spartel / Basques; Sepharad; Fez(zan) / Sahara / Sakkara ("Phaeacians were dark"?); Corsica/Sardinia; Squillace/Calabria / Sicily; Corfu; Thera/Therasia/Skaros/Phira/Perissa / Pelasgians / Keftiou / Phaistos (~ Mavor); Skiros island (Aegean); Troy (Zangger); Phasis/Colchis; Phoenicians / Philistines; Kir; Shiraz; Sir/Serica/Sherpa (silk land of China/Tibet).
Nausicaa might be connected with Nazca?
* In Sumerian King List Meski-agga-sheir went up into the mountains; In Genesis 36 Esau/Edom/Seir went up into the mountains.
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
The evidence that Atlantis capital city is Tiahuanaco is overwhelming. Any supposed "flaws" are able to be answered or have been already. I don't remember the Account saying clearly anywhere that the Atlanteans were ancestors of the Greeks. It does say they fought with them, and that they conquered up to Libya or Egypt and Tyrrhenia or Greece. There is a theory that the Dorians are from Atlantean Sea Peoples.
Atlantis can not be Thera for many reasons including: - wrong size (Atlantis was very large) - wrong distance (Atlantis was most remote). So Atlanteans were "invaders" just from so close place as Thera or Malta? - wrong "sinking" disaster - wrong direction - no large plain - no remains of concentric city extensive civilisation - wrong date? (Thera date is disputed & uncertain) etc.
There is heaps of evidences for pre-Colkumbian trans-Atlantic contacts. Eg see books by Pierre Honore, Nigel Davies, Barry Fell, Sitchin (Lost Realms), Donald MacKenzie, SC Compton, etc. Heliolithic [Megalithic] culture is found many places all around the world including Peru. American cocaine & tobacco was found in Egyptian mummies.
It is not safe to assume anything like exageration. Only by objectively looking to see if there are (or aren't) any quality matches with real history.
The date was not literally 9000 years. There was no Sais or Athens or Mycenaean Greeks or Bronze etc then.
Yes Red Clay that seems a fairly good summary view. It does seem that the capital city [Tiahuanaco] was the main "Atlantis" though Atlantis was also the whole large island [(South) America]. Though not sure that it was sea-level rise. Evidence seems to suggest a pole shift (and/or maybe a continental shift?)
My current very tentative theory is that the "Aryans" [Kittim? Tiras?] come from Atlantis. ("Aryan" as blond & blue not necessarily as in Indo-European.) in The beast in Revelation seems to match. Fits with the ideas of Serrano, Rosenberg, Thule Soc, etc.
The evidence for regular pre-Columbian contact and trade between the New World and the Old World is lacking. While is there some highly debatable Pre-Columbian evidence, is hardly overwhelming, and it does not indicate any regular contact and trade between the Old and New World that would be required if Atlantis was in South A America. (It may be possible, but far from proven, that occassion some ancient Phonecian, Greek, or Roman ship got blown off course in some storm, and landed in the New World, but that hardly qualifies as proof of regular contact.). Evidence against any regular pre-columbian contact:
a. Lack of any evidence of Old World animals in New World. There is no pre-columbian evidence for dhickens,cows, pigs, mules, and especially horses in Prd-Columbian New World. Given how useful these animals are, and how they prosper in the New World, the lack of Pre-Columbian evidence argues that if there was any contact, it was not regular and extensive.
b. Same for New World crops in the Old World. If thete was regular comtact (and there must have been, for us to know the story of Atlantis if it was in the Americas), then why did none of these ancients realize the advantages of crops like chiles, potatoes, maize, tomatoes, squashes, peanuts and dozens of other New World cropss that have become staples around the world. Why were the ancients so stupid not to recognize the values of these crops, only the Spanish being smart enough to realize their value?
c. Tiahuanaco is nearer Pacifc, high up in the Andes mountains, nowhere near any sea port, opposite the Altnatic coast, with the dense Amazon jungle between. Just before European contact, the American civilizations of Mesoamerica and the Andes were not in direct contact with each other, and the Aztecs and Incas were not aware of each other. Yet we are proposing that that the much more distant Atlantic civilization in the Andean mountains and Egypt were? I am highly skeptical.
d. Didn't Atlantis sink? No evidence of any sunken land off the Pacific coast of Sourh America that I have presented, and doesn't the fact that Tiahuanaco did not sink beneath the waters argue it was not Atlantis?
Excuse me but i kindly request only one point at a time, and only one topic/thread at a time. Here you have 3 or so extensive points, plus 2 threads (Atlantis & Biblical) to reply to on same day. I will answer all but in future only one thing at a time please.
Originally posted by amature historian
The evidence for regular pre-Columbian contact and trade between the New World and the Old World is lacking. While is there some highly debatable Pre-Columbian evidence, is hardly overwhelming, and it does not indicate any regular contact and trade between the Old and New World that would be required if Atlantis was in South A America. (It may be possible, but far from proven, that occassion some ancient Phonecian, Greek, or Roman ship got blown off course in some storm, and landed in the New World, but that hardly qualifies as proof of regular contact.). Evidence against any regular pre-columbian contact:
a. Lack of any evidence of Old World animals in New World. There is no pre-columbian evidence for dhickens,cows, pigs, mules, and especially horses in Prd-Columbian New World. Given how useful these animals are, and how they prosper in the New World, the lack of Pre-Columbian evidence argues that if there was any contact, it was not regular and extensive.
b. Same for New World crops in the Old World. If thete was regular comtact (and there must have been, for us to know the story of Atlantis if it was in the Americas), then why did none of these ancients realize the advantages of crops like chiles, potatoes, maize, tomatoes, squashes, peanuts and dozens of other New World cropss that have become staples around the world. Why were the ancients so stupid not to recognize the values of these crops, only the Spanish being smart enough to realize their value?
I am afraid that this is just too difficult for me to answer in my current situation & condition. It is not easy to answer because i do not have all the material in my head and at hand to post to you. I also admit that i myself do not have massively "extensive" amount of evidences, i only have quite alot of evidences that i have seen in my life of studies. I don't have all the answers, but these few remaining things don't disprove the matches evidences, they are just incredulous doubts.
I must repeat that the Atlantis Accounts themselves clearly state that the Atlanteans had almost no or very little contacts with the rest of the (Old) World. So the contention that there is supposedly (too) little evidences of pre-Columbian trans-Atlantic contacts is not quite so valid as you insist.
As i have already said many sources, especially like the following listed ones, give plenty of evidences of such pre-Columbian trans-Atlantic contacts, including: Donald Mackenzie book on precolumbian American myth; Barry Fell (Bronze Age America, America BC); Nigel Davies; Sitchin (Lost Realms); Thor Heyerdahl; Pierre Honor (In Search of the White God); Hancock; John Jewell (Aryans in the New World); Jim Allen (Atlantis in Bolivia website); SC Compton (Exodus Lost); etc.
There are well known modern times findings such as Kennewick Man; Folsom/Clovis & Solutrean related. Sipan 3 pyramids look similar to 3 Giza pyramids. Chancelade & Eskimo related. 4 world ages same in Mexico/Peru and Old World (ref MacKenzie). Flood Myth same in both worlds. Tower of babel myth same in both worlds. Amerindian myths mostly have origins from east over sea not from west over land/ice (ref Berlitz). Pictures of "Indian Elephant" in America (MacKenzie). There have been various phoenician / etc inscriptions found in Americas (though some are disputable) (one mentions Jehu? one mentions Bel?). There is evidence that Phoenicians/Carthaginians knew of America(s) (map or something). Cocaine & tobacco found in Egyptian mummies. Toakkari Sea People bearing South American fan palm. Quinoa/Keen-wah "mother of all grain" might be related to Eve/Khavah "mother of all life". Heliolithic [Megalithic] culture is found many places all around the world including Peru.
Even if just only one or few are accepted genuine then they have to be explained.
If you search "Mythos Atlantis Historia Pangaea" you will find a older version of my earlier Atlantis theory which lists more examples in the section on Pre-Columbian trans-Atlantic contacts.
There have been thousands of years between the "sinking" event and now. Animals supposedly evolve. Animals and plants only thrive in certain places. There have been changes in geography & climate.
Also many things may have been buried or wiped out. There are many "forbidden archaeological" finds in all periods of geological time scale deep down (Cremo & Thompson 'Forbidden Archaeology'). Mass extinction sites from Alaska to Mexico and Bogota to ....
Originally posted by amature historian
c. Tiahuanaco is nearer Pacifc, high up in the Andes mountains, nowhere near any sea port, opposite the Altnatic coast, with the dense Amazon jungle between. Just before European contact, the American civilizations of Mesoamerica and the Andes were not in direct contact with each other, and the Aztecs and Incas were not aware of each other. Yet we are proposing that that the much more distant Atlantic civilization in the Andean mountains and Egypt were? I am highly skeptical.
Atlantis Account says the capital city was on the side of the sea/ocean. Atlantis island was the whole large island (South America). 'Atlantic (sea)' was either Titicaca, or Pacific &/or Atlantic (either/both sides of Atlantis/America). Atlantis Account says/implies the area was high (mountains) (& "Atlas"). Atlantis Account confirms woodlands/forests.
There are tons of evidences proving that the Andes were raised up higher within the lifetime of ancient humans & civilisation, and/or that Tiahuanaco was a port, including: - tilted water marks in Titicaca. - cracked and scattered/tossed megalithic stones buidlings. - Andes once had a Pacific ocean climate fauna/flora. - Tiahuanaco was once a great sea-port (also sea port evidences in Titicaca sites). "sea ports in the Andes" - Velikovsky. - raised beaches in Ancon (ref Berlitz) - Paracas candelabra seems to be a sea-farers/sea-port land mark. - Megalithic buildings which can't have been built in such rarified high altitude air. Sources which give such evidences include: Velikovsky; Darwin; Ivar Lissner; Charles Berlitz; etc.
There are some evidences of possible Mexican & Peruvian ancient contacts, but i don't have them recorded or at hand right now. Where was Olman? Tulan? Aztlan? Was Gadeira of Atlantis Account Mexico? Tiahuanaco has been called "the cradle of American man" (Posnansky, Kolosimo). Oldest American evidences are on east coast not west coast, and in south America not north America (eg SC Compton 'Exodus Lost'). Traditions of caves linking different regions.
There was once a statue in Azores of man on horse pointing west & associated with name/word cati/cates which happens to match Quechua word meaning "this way".
Originally posted by amature historian
d. Didn't Atlantis sink? No evidence of any sunken land off the Pacific coast of Sourh America that I have presented, and doesn't the fact that Tiahuanaco did not sink beneath the waters argue it was not Atlantis?
Peruvian/Bolivian traditions have memories of "Flood" at Tiahuanaco. "water over turns land", etc. There are matching archaeological evidences of both quake(s) and flood(s) at Tiahuanaco. See the table in earlier post above. Really i have already posted many evidences in the table. How many times i have had to keep repeating myself over the last 4 years (and people had the cheek to imply i'm the "lazy" one). Its nice to chat, but i have major time etc stresses and i will just be wasting my time re-writing (not as well) what i already did before in the table.
As i have already said in earlier post in this thread: Atlantis "sinking" was either: Pole Shift (Crust Displacement), and/or Continental Shift, and/or only the royal island capital city area sunk (confusion in the Account between the whole large island and the royal island capital city, see the wording in the table in earlier post above, or highlighted in Hancock forum thread couple months ago). "Sinking" was either land went down, or water went up, or land/water went side ways. Some English translations parts say "sank" but some say different. Things are also not necessarily always so over-literal eg Joshua "halting sun" was not literally the sun that stopped was it?
The Atlantis Account only says it "sank" or was "swallowed" at that one snap shot time it was writing about. It doesn't say what happened between then and now. Lets try an example. Sursey island rose, but oh there is no Surtsey island now so it must be a lie?
Personally i think/feel that we gave in our table undeniable matches evidences that Atlantis city & plain & island match Tiahuanaco & Peru/Bolivia & Andes & (South) America. Regardless of a few things people find difficult to believe (which don't prove/disprove anything but are just doubts put in the way). I can understand if there are more things that must be answered, but i also think it is wrong how they always use any possible excuse to refuse to accept our work. To me the things are not necessary, we already have things that simply can not be denied to match. But they insist the extra things are necessary. its not fair that its all or nothing.
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