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Centrix Vigilis
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Topic: Turkey Shoots Down Russian Jet Fighter Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 14:25 |
''Turkey Shoots Down Russian Jet Fighter ''
'Lions and Tigers and Bears...oh my.'
Whether it was in or out... will depend on an objective review.
Ntl...the shitt in the pot just got thicker.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-syria-border-1448356509http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-syria-border-1448356509
Edited by medenaywe - 24-Nov-2015 at 14:32
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medenaywe
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Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 14:35 |
unnecessary act or just a decoy?!?
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 14:47 |
I cant say yet my old friend ...sources will vary..and culpability is yet to be determined. Certainly the Turks have an inherent right to defend their airspace. Denials will be manifold.
But this I know..... the 'Russian' agenda is not that of Turkey independently or as a NATO member. or for that matter the Israeli's. Neither is Iran's or Assads.
I also know the Turk's have superbly trained airmen and I'm inclined, based on my knowledge of them and especially their training, to believe their version.
But mistakes are often made. And without a 'no fly' zone established along that frontier...SHITT happens.
amen.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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medenaywe
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Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 14:56 |
It could be "shits happen" i hope.Regards C.V.Hope those insane acts will gone soon as it possible.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 15:08 |
Finally someone did it. Russian airfocrces for over a year are provoking such situations but so far noone in Europe had balls big enough to show them that violating NATO's country airspace is a bad idea. There were countless violations of the airspace of Baltic states.
Even when Russians on the Estonian territory have kidnapped an Estonian secret services officer nobody did say anything. But the Turks are a proud nation and did show Putin that in the Turkish airspace only such foreign military aircrafts can fly which got their permission.
Well done.
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 16:00 |
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Aeoli
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Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 16:50 |
This would happen soon or late.
There were no real ceasefire between Assad-Russia and Free Syrian Army-West block. Russia is attacking ISIS and as well as other Anti-Assad Rebels.
And for Assad, passing to Syrian Desert and taking ISIS capital Raqqa can not be the first act. Taking second biggest Syrian city Aleppo is more important.
This is the fire which can be see miles miles away.
In the short term, Russian Jet crossed the Turkish Borders and Turkey pissed off. Just a few days ago, Turkey warned Russia "you are attacking Turkmens in Syria".
then now...
Edited by Aeoli - 24-Nov-2015 at 16:52
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 24-Nov-2015 at 19:07 |
''And for Assad, passing to Syrian Desert and taking ISIS capital Raqqa can not be the first act. Taking second biggest Syrian city Aleppo is more important. ''
I concur...Tho AQ proxies are hard at work.
The agenda for Aleppo is Assad-Russian-Iranian one.
The wild Cards? Numerous.
Yet ISIS still gains.... as the diversion/strat of conflicting agendas....based on the lack of major American leadership....well serves them... before others.
SEE:'' Al Nusrah Front fights Iraqi militia in Aleppo''
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2015/11/al-nusrah-front-fights-iraqi-militia-in-aleppo.php[/URL]
Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 24-Nov-2015 at 19:21
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Aeoli
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Posted: 25-Nov-2015 at 01:23 |
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
SEE:'' Al Nusrah Front fights Iraqi militia in Aleppo''
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2015/11/al-nusrah-front-fights-iraqi-militia-in-aleppo.php[/URL] |
I don't think Aleppo is ruling by one force. By the way, Al Nusrah Front is another type of ISIS.
Flag of Al Nusrah
There is an operation in Turkoman land.
But still Turkey is divided, some people think that region is controlled by Al Nusrah, some people think that Russia attacking Turkomans
But the point is not about directly Syria,
It is about Turkey's border-airspace issue. After the recent airspace violation, Turkey declared that they will protect own airspace aggressively And Russian Jet have been warned 9-10 times
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 25-Nov-2015 at 01:28 |
I can concur again...the provocation and violations of the Russians into the Turk airspace, as noted above, have been serious. And in all probability, if not a certainty, were deliberate.
Why? agendas at odds by the players.
Stay away from that border if you can. We may occasional be at odds over various things...but I wish you well and no harm.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Aeoli
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Posted: 25-Nov-2015 at 06:54 |
This is sarcastic image. Actually Russians are critizing US
Similarly, Ukranie-North Of Turkey, Georgia-Northeast of Turkey, Syria-South of Turkey. We saw the Russia acts in there.
How should Turkey see the view? Is Russia different?
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 25-Nov-2015 at 15:57 |
Updates.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/25/second-russian-pilot-shot-down-turkey-alive-ambassador
As noted the versions differ...but that's expected.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/12015465/Turkey-shoots-down-Russia-jet-live.html
The problem and rather stupid reaction on the part of the rebels was killing the pilot while under parachute. This is murder. As defined by Proto 1, Art 42, of the GC; and agreed upon by 147 states as ratified. With three other states signing in 1977..tho not yet ratified (United States, Iran, and Pakistan).
Turkey remains a noted non signer.
Once landed the rules might vary..as a pilot might become a combatant again or not. The Int RC also subscribes these protos and articles as customary international law whether ratifies or not.
Iirc, all the NATO states, less Turkey, have agreed to enforcement of Art 42.
So have the Russians.
Consequently, it was a stupid act. As it merely exacerbated the potential for further crisis. The rebels would have been much better served by capturing the pilot/nav and treating them accordingly.
Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 25-Nov-2015 at 15:59
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
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Aeoli
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Posted: 26-Nov-2015 at 01:11 |
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
Consequently, it was a stupid act. As it merely exacerbated the potential for further crisis. The rebels would have been much better served by capturing the pilot/nav and treating them accordingly. |
Definately stupid act, actually acts
*Shooting down the plane instead of dogfight. That was heavy bombing plane, so Jets can beat it in the dogfight. Turks and Greeks do it very often in the Aegean. *Killing the pilot
But Russian act is stupid as much as Turkish side acts. A friend Turkey have been told you a couple of time that he is not happy border violations. Now you are making a operation near a few miles of Turkish border. No contact with Turkish authorities and your plane don't get answer Turkish call.
Putin called the issue as stabbing in the back, but they have already turned their back to Turkey.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 26-Nov-2015 at 06:46 |
The Turks did well. Russians understand only the language of power and respects only those who can show that are ready to fight (one of the reasons is that they are not ready to fight;) ). Turkey did show that it must be respected, that Turkey is not Estonia or Latvia which can be easily bullied or theatened by Russia. If you will follow this path sooner or later the Russians will come to you and offer you to warm mutual relations, "friendship and cooperation". They made already almost all their neighbours hostile and the last thing they need is to make now Turkey hostile to them.
Edited by Mosquito - 26-Nov-2015 at 06:47
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 13:58 |
You both restating the obvious...and I agree.
But Turkish allied rebels 'murdering' the pilot was stupid...and a war crime...that did not have to be laid at Turkey's feet.
And arguing, or obfuscating, and disregarding it, thru minimization is mere straw.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 14:07 |
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
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Mosquito
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Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 14:50 |
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
You both restating the obvious...and I agree.
But Turkish allied rebels 'murdering' the pilot was stupid...and a war crime...that did not have to be laid at Turkey's feet.
And arguing, or obfuscating, and disregarding it, thru minimization is mere straw.
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On the other hand this pilot was a member of bomber crew which was bombing Turkish allies. When one sends soldiers to kill other people, he must be aware that his soldiers are also mortal and may die.
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Mosquito
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Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 15:01 |
Thanks for sharing. Especialy the first article is very good.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 15:28 |
In Poland we also dont tollerate Russian military planes even if it makes Russians angry ;)
https://www.rt.com/news/183800-russia-poland-airspace-reprisal/
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 27-Nov-2015 at 18:26 |
Originally posted by Mosquito
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
You both restating the obvious...and I agree.
But Turkish allied rebels 'murdering' the pilot was stupid...and a war crime...that did not have to be laid at Turkey's feet.
And arguing, or obfuscating, and disregarding it, thru minimization is mere straw.
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On the other hand this pilot was a member of bomber crew which was bombing Turkish allies. When one sends soldiers to kill other people, he must be aware that his soldiers are also mortal and may die. |
Turkish allies were stupid and the fact he was in a mission posture does not minimize the war crime. His target was approved by his higher authority. Therefore his mission, while perhaps odius, was ntl legal based on that authority and their sovereign legality.
His summary execution 'under parachute' was not.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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