Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedWild Dog vs Bengal tiger
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Prime View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

suspended

Joined: 20-Mar-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Wild Dog vs Bengal tiger
    Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 21:30

Okay.
Be honset to thy self!
Back to Top
J.A.W. View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 07-Apr-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 21:23
Ah, no P, scientific evidence-based research does not work like that..

I suggest you look up the hierarchy of research validity.( & that of 'sources' - in literature review, such as primary, or lesser)..

No need to descend to making up even more fanciful stuff such as the kids do on Carnivora ( & funnily enough, I today 'earned' a ban in perpetuity - from there, for mentioning their stupidities - here!), like Ti framed tigers..

As I noted earlier, I do not doubt that dogs would/do employ harassment -'dogging' tactics against a rival predator, but I do contend that it would be,( & is, as actually shown by the video evidence), done fairly circumspectly with that big cat,& keeping out of tiger striking/grasping range - for sure - if they valued their lives..

Like-wise as D. Attenborough commented, if the tiger does grab a d'hole, it will destroy it on principle, but it would not - usually - bother to waste much of its energy to gain such a small morsel, ( unless sorely aggrieved), accordingly..


& have another look at the instances of 'game' trained fighting dogs being set on fierce lions, for sport, where they soon lost their ardour for the fight in panic, when they saw their fellows smashed so devastatingly..

Why do you imagine small wild dogs - who have to forage for a living,
would be any less fearful.. than trained, big bred 'game' dogs..

It does not compute..



Edited by J.A.W. - 16-Jun-2015 at 21:50
Be Modest In Thyself..
Back to Top
Prime View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

suspended

Joined: 20-Mar-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 20:48

You are the one alibing them as bull rushing in attacking tigers (I am saying they would defend them selves), you are the one stateing they are kamikaze dogs, (I am saying they would defend themselves), you are the ones saying these dogs go out looking for war, looking to be pesty piranahs and devour anything in their way, (I am saying they would defend them selves againt a attaking tiger with the empowerment of more than 20 jaws that can tear flesh).

You dont need a science lab coat with a bunch of smoking colored water jars to be deemd science, science just means knowledge, hence these people are eye witnessers to the event, whats more knowledgeable than that? Did you miss the part they had to treat the tiger? isnt it tiger 101 for any biologist, ecologist and zoologist to know that a injured tiger has a massive chance of not surviving? I thought you would know that since you act as if you have a Ph.d on subject. Followed up by, didnt a single rabies dog manage to bite a tiger recently? Now how in gods green earth did that ever happen, what happened to the tigers superman speed that was suppose to cancel out 30 wild dogs snapping jaws let alone one? What happen to the titanium body of the tiger to resist the puny dogs biting psi? They wouldnt have, have to give the tiger a shot if the teeth didnt penatrate the skin now would they?

The screaming of the wild dogs last breath would only re-double their furry and prowess and probably attract more dhole in the area who are now full of vigor, have a full gaged of vitality while the tiger already is now winded from killing one or two. Its not a kamikaze when the dog is actually showing skill of maunverability like the one did againt the two hyena video. Unsupported? You mean you are too afraid to ask them for what....you...want...(since I dont have to email them, I believe them as is) the only thing I have gotten straight about you is, no matter how many litterature of eyewitness accounts is brought in, you will deny it, you are one of the, need to see video deniers out there...nothing to do with truth or false, you just want things your way, and you do everything you can to uphold this pesudo refuting.

Which your pseudo-refuting can actually be null'd just the same, show me a video of a tiger going up against a large pack of wild dogs, and not being injured. Bet you cant. (wink) Hence your poor, contradicting opinions, are unsupported and have zero validations to your claims. Wow, now that was easy (laugh).


Edited by Prime - 16-Jun-2015 at 20:52
Be honset to thy self!
Back to Top
J.A.W. View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 07-Apr-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 20:23
Hang on P,
Lets get a few things straight here..
..that book is described as 'passionate' not 'cooly scientific'..
& as for the '5 dogs', so-called Indian 'news' story, the tiger wasn't even "torn to shreds"..

I am not doubting for the sake of being oppositional, just on
the bounds of feasibility..

The fear shown by dogs when one of their kind is literally screaming its
last breath out in the jaws of a large cat is palpable..

So, you reckon d'holes as such, are profoundly fierce & untypical dogs, so will typically react savagely to this event - causing them to redouble their efforts, rushing in regardless to emulate their expired pack-mate - in a frenzied kamikaze-like assault.. but this is, of course, properly belongs in the realms of fantasy/fiction, - being in reality, most "unlikely"..

Simply implausible..
& remains to this day - unsupported by genuine, validated evidence..   
Be Modest In Thyself..
Back to Top
Prime View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

suspended

Joined: 20-Mar-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 20:01
I dont have to admit anything, you act as if I am in a academic review giving a speech in front of wild life conservationlist...I'm on no timer, neither is not having any tangible evidence reason to dispute anything...again, do you have a video of hyenas tearing a leopard apart? No, and that doesnt dispute they cant, and dont.  The only person who should be admitting something is you, you have no arguments against stamina/endurance issues nor proof they can fight at all angles without being nipped just once. Perhaps, and then again, perhaps not, the humans werent the ones chasing the leopard, nor was the leopard transfixed on the humans. In your case the dog did yelp...did he blow up into a million peices because of it? No, hence the weapons of claws and fangs are more superficial than you made them out to be, espeacially against so many at once.
 
Its no biggie, I am not losing any cred in this department, I am just sharing what most people wont know...again, not tryna make any one convert over, just letting them know some detailed facts with some from eyewitnessers involved too, like the one  detailed account given of a whole fight on page one, not a already dead tiger being eaten. The book was not in the fictional section, nor the novel section, it was a biological one...via science. You can email the 5 dhole ones when ever you feel the need to prove your self wrong.
Be honset to thy self!
Back to Top
J.A.W. View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 07-Apr-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 19:46
Again, no actual unequivocal proof exists to confirm the d'hole legends, just admit it P..

In the African links, we don't know if the dead leopard was already injured or otherwise infirm too, as seems probable/likely, & in the 'fleas' video the dog yelps from surprise/fear/a strike? & also 'fleas' - when confronted by the leopard.
Perhaps the cat was more concerned about the rowdy people than the dogs anyhow..

Are then any 'stories' of d'hole packs vs Asiatic lions?

Be Modest In Thyself..
Back to Top
Prime View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

suspended

Joined: 20-Mar-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 19:03

Then why did the leopard leap down and kill the wild dogs, only two of them, no? Not 30, and again more arguments that contradict the main point, 20+ wild dogs can kill a tiger, not 1. And those hyenas would still see to the collective system of lions, do you have any proof that shows hyenas are brain dead in memory? They would still remember that lions are in prides, wheather one is ousted or alone as well, unless in a form of distress or wounded and alone, just being alone is not gona make them forget lions as a species are not in collective groups who aid each other, and they do attack the females, even when there are 10+ of them, which further exploits your arguments of claws will sheith them from being bitten from any angle.

Guess this one is fake too then:
 
 
- Wild dogs cannot kill animals as big as a tiger (even though sambar out weigh tigers two folds)
- Tigers have infinite stamina (even though the heat alone can kill them, no fight needed)
- Tigers cannot even be nipped because of 360 paw swiping (even though no proof of that exist nor 180 turning constantly for over just 10 minutes)
- Wild dogs cannot bypass claws of big cats (even though it shows right there a leopard being killed)
- The records are all fake (even though biologist, naturalist, eye-witnesses, ecologist native and hunters all agree against you)
- The 5 dholes injuring the tiger is fake hocus pocus witch doctoring fables by anicent romans written in stone (even though you refuse to email them)
 
Your contradictions: 1.) No matter what will be said of the dholes superior numbers you will link or mention single dogs being killed by big cats (not what the subject is about). 2.) No matter what is said about lions being true pack/pride animals, you will use them as a comparison just because they are cats too (not what any other cat can attain mentally or physically).
 
What less than 10 wild dogs can do to a leopard:
 
20+ would no dought do to a tiger. The prime male lions are nearly immune to being attacked because of their social system, regardless if one is alone for a time being, they're attitudes hardly change, and they're manes dont dissapear either...on average this is why the lion is not attempted when alone, unless by extreme conditions, weak, sickly, old, dying ect...as for tigers, even if its in his prime, they lack the attitude, the mane and the social system.


Edited by Prime - 16-Jun-2015 at 19:20
Be honset to thy self!
Back to Top
J.A.W. View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 07-Apr-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 18:40
Male lions ejected from prides at reaching sexual maturity may live solitary, nomadic lives, & yet they do not fear dogs..

& all cats are enigmatic creatures, with a wide range of potential behaviours, depending on their individual character, mood & motive drives.

The video you linked did not show much P, maybe the leopard was up the tree on other business? Or to avoid the humans? No actual conflict though.. certainly nothing proof-wise of a mass killing frenzy,
as the grisly old jungle fables/fallacies supposedly relate..

Have a look at the youtube vid 'Tiger Kills Dog' to see just how quickly this really happens..
Be Modest In Thyself..
Back to Top
Prime View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

suspended

Joined: 20-Mar-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 18:21
Lions are not solitary, how many times would that have to be told to you? Heres some tangible evidence that wipes out more than half your arguments:
 
A single leopard can kill a tiger, even the biggest of tigers, with only one jaw in play (killing him sometimes with a single bite), the wild dogs will have 20-30 jaws in play (which will be constant and accumilated through out the fight)...as most of the accounts are now strengthend, as they start off with, dhole often tree leopards and tigers, and sometimes cases have been known to kill tigers. Theres not one case or two, there are literally hundreds...to me thats more than a plausible an credible means of accepting the posibility, topped in by how much videos show how formidable they are against, leopards, hyenas and other predators, tigers are no exception.
 
Why didnt the leopard just butcher the dhole like you suggested many times the claws would? Because big cats (excluding lions) are solitary and dont have premptive striking and killing tactics when it comes to being out-numberd offensively, nothing you have ever brought suggest they do, they are more defensive than offensive, just being defensive is not going to be any argument for the tiger to win,as he has a limitation to his stamina and endurance.


Edited by Prime - 16-Jun-2015 at 18:28
Be honset to thy self!
Back to Top
J.A.W. View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 07-Apr-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 18:10
Hyenas cannot reach out with hard-striking sharp ripping claws..

Have you ever seen African wild dogs confront a lion like that, P?

They are generally fearful of them, since they are on a hiding to nothing by attempting such a contest..

I reiterate, how long will a d'hole pack last - if it habitually
loses up to 1/2 of its membership - in attacking a single tiger?

It just does not add up..
So, I must concur with "unlikely" - as reckoned by naturalist in the field, 'K'..
Be Modest In Thyself..
Back to Top
Prime View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

suspended

Joined: 20-Mar-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 17:58

Alot of your arguments previously made were counter-productive, pretty much controdictions...what exactly would they have to do to the tiger? Just run around it in cricles until the tiger tires out. As fast as a tiger is, its not easy catching one as they are skillfull in manuvering:

 
20-30 wild dogs would have the tiger a difficult time focusing on one. Your argument of claws and jaws is limited as well, the tiger can attack only one at a time, (which cost energy), ripping, biting and constantly turning when getting bitten as well, (cost energy), these wild dogs will completely surround the tiger in a 360 degree form:
 
Wild dogs even alone will atleast defend theselves, 30 defending themselves would have no trouble wounding a single animal who is not much bigger than their usual prey, who has no intimidating factors, both physically and physicologically, has no protecting factors, poor endurance, ect. No one is saying the tiger wont catch one, or several, no one is saying in every encounter it will be a blood bath with the dogs aggressors 100% of the time, but you suggesting that tigers have infinite amounts of stamina/endurance is illogical. The tiger is not as calm, assertive and pre-game as the lion is, a tiger wont only be weary of a large pack of wild dogs, but he will be in a panic, this sky rockets his respitory and rational thinking, many tigers have been documented being killed by heat stress alone (as shown), being that active all at once couldnt allow the tiger to sustain such a placement unless there was a leverage like the puma video where the puma was up on a tree free from them attacking from the back, the tiger again will be on the ground (as most are too big to climb effectively or there might not be trees for a distance at the time) and surounded completely.
 
In my opinion, the tiger doesnt have a chance against 20+ dogs. Its not that you should lower your standards, you can give it a 10/10 to tigers for all I care, in versa... you should aid the search in your own disbelief...you should in fact contact those people on the 5 wild dogs incident...if you stand corrected, than thats a point to bring up, if you are supplied with tanigble evidence, than it saves the hundreds of more post to come, of living in denial.
Be honset to thy self!
Back to Top
J.A.W. View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 07-Apr-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 17:30
Actually P, my standard level of doubt/disbelief is high,
& as to these stories being plausible, well I don't think so..

Where else in the world are wild/feral dogs noted to do this?

Viz: recklessly attack hugely dangerous opponents - at the cost of many deaths/injuries to their own pack, & on a supposedly habitual basis..

Nowhere,I know of..

Unless there is repeatable, reliable/verifiable, scientifically
validated/documented results available - to back these jungle fables( & there just aint, AFAIK) then - sorry, no cigar..

D'holes are kept in zoos. but are they so implacably vicious in captivity?
Not that I've heard..

Be Modest In Thyself..
Back to Top
Prime View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

suspended

Joined: 20-Mar-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 05:22
Well I am not here to force you to believe in them, you can believe in anything you want...wheather they are hear say or not, rumors/false and truths are often revealing. When I believe in something I try to stay with the evidence I bring, you are right though, finding a bunch of dogs eating a dead tiger carcass they didnt see the fight of, is not a 100% fact...but the consistancy level is there, and the plausibility is there, it will just take time to find a more credible source or atleast one that offers up tangible evidence to confirm the others...a more scientific one that offers up photos for further disecting it would be better, and of course if it is ever caught on film, well, than I would assume that all the other accounts will then be accountable.
 


Edited by Prime - 16-Jun-2015 at 05:27
Be honset to thy self!
Back to Top
J.A.W. View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 07-Apr-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 03:46
Yeah, ok P, but those 'stories' are IMO, likely the old hard copy/book equivalent of 'viral' - & when repeated longitudinally over long periods of time by credulous types they take up a 'life' of their own..

Yet crucially nothing in the way of unequivocally substantive evidence seems to exist - to actually corroborate these old tales..

& I thought it was a bear that got a dog latched on to its throat..

Does indeed seem "unlikely" that a dog as small as a d'hole could feasibly tackle a healthy fully-clawed wild tiger like that..

& CV, to be sure, dogs can be bold/destructive in attacking domestic beasts.. can't see 'em making a living out of preying on prime tigers though, that's just a bit too far fetched - by 1/2..


Edited by J.A.W. - 16-Jun-2015 at 03:50
Be Modest In Thyself..
Back to Top
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 03:40
Nt on topic perse and I'll admit that openly...But I personally have seen yotes, around 10-15 of em, iirc, take down a 800 lb heifer in deep snow, up on the Llano, before I could get there to drive em off her.

Wasn't pretty but that's nature.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
Prime View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

suspended

Joined: 20-Mar-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 03:31
It states pretty much what I quoted...I find it interesting a single dog killed a tiger by grabing his throat when he was unaware as posted on the L vs T owned by hydeyoshi...yet 30 wild dogs cant injure and wound a 200-400 lb tiger? Tigresses big ones or sundarban ones range only from the 150-300 lb range, 30 dogs 40 lbs each, would weigh past a 1,000 lbs, much more enough to hold the tiger or tigress in place and well sure to wound him, a person can take a shank or two, but 20+ mini shanks thats repeative for an hour? C'mon, I am not degrading the tigers fighting skills or weapons, but tigers are the least combative of the big cats, the least brave, they hardly would intimidate a large pack of dogs looking smaller than their usual prey of sambar.
 
They are not lions, wild dogs and hyenas understand the lionesses have a safety net, the males, who are also in coalitions, they dont just forget this when one male is on his own, they would still be cautious of his brotherns who might pop out at any minute to aid him, what would wild dogs or wolves be cautious of the tigers back up? He has none. Again, tigers arnt like lions, they dont go trumpeting in wageing war and diving into packs careless of their own health (which would lead to a small injury, which would lead to death), tigers are quite passive espeacially something that shows fight and is able to survive the first instances of his rushes/attacks.
 
Just showing information from what is coming from your average, biologist, naturalist, conservationlist and credible source...its quite telling when alot agree with each other...if it were just one or two reports I would dought it my self, but viewing how sometimes wild dogs of india are able to contend with hyena, (who hyena are by far no push overs in clans)...than I think their cousins the dhole has the right of way to being called indias top predators. Bottom line is, 20-30 is just too much.
Be honset to thy self!
Back to Top
J.A.W. View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 07-Apr-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2015 at 23:24
Well P, it won't for me, it just goes to a list of books..
Can you at least quote the gist of the report?

Since so many so-called 'reports' are either from not directly
witnessed events, unreliable 'witnesses',or - are after-the-event guesses..

D'holes likely would scavenge the carcase of an already dead tiger,
but that is not proof that they had killed it..
Be Modest In Thyself..
Back to Top
Prime View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

suspended

Joined: 20-Mar-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2015 at 06:22
Link works for me.
Be honset to thy self!
Back to Top
J.A.W. View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 07-Apr-2015
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2015 at 05:41
Sorry P, that link didn't work - for me..

Was it actually a reliable 1st hand eye-witness account?
Or another dubious hearsay story - that purported to claim it - as fact..
Be Modest In Thyself..
Back to Top
Prime View Drop Down
Consul
Consul

suspended

Joined: 20-Mar-2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2015 at 03:25
(2000)
 
encounters with dangerous game, such as boars and tigers. There are many
instances on record of wild dogs having tree'd both tigers and panthers, and one,
of their having killed and partly eaten a tiger at Bandipore on the Mysore frontier
Be honset to thy self!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.