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Where can I get resources about Khorasani

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Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai View Drop Down
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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Where can I get resources about Khorasani
    Posted: 23-May-2005 at 08:45
They are a different Turkic group compared to Turkmens or Azeri Turks, right?
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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 09:52
more I look into such posts, it comes to the stale joke which went something like "did the chicken come out of the egg or the egg out of the chicken"   ... easily applied to the indo-persian group / turkic altay group......

I believe no, their origin is the Seljuk Turks and the Safavid Turks
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2005 at 09:54

KHORASANI TURKISH: a language of Iran:

Population: 400,000 possibly (1977 Doerfer). 
Region: Northeast Iran, in the northern part of Khorasan Province, especially northwest of Mashhad. West dialect in Bojnurd region; north dialect in Quchan region (probably the largest), south dialect around Soltanabad near Sabzevar. 
Alternate names: QUCHANI
Dialects: WEST QUCHANI (NORTHWEST QUCHANI), NORTH QUCHANI (NORTHEAST QUCHANI), SOUTH QUCHANI.
Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish.
Comments: Midway linguistically between Azerbaijani and Turkmen, but not a dialect of either. Oghuz-Uzbek in Uzbekistan is reported to be a dialect of this. Bilingualism in Farsi. Not a literary language, but the government broadcasts in Quchani. Different from Khorasani, a local Persian dialect in Khorasan. Muslim.

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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2005 at 02:38

Originally posted by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai

They are a different Turkic group compared to Turkmens or Azeri Turks, right?

No. Especially the Turkmens of Anatolia still get the heritage of Khorasan. They call themselves sometimes as "Khorasan Erenleri", "Khorasan Alp Erenleri"..... They are Alevis of Turkey.

Some of the Azeri Turks belong to the Turkmens who have returned from Anatolia to Azerbaijan after clashes with Ottoman Turks around 16th century. But there were other Turkic groups also from Oghuzs sttled in Azerbaijan before these events of course.

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2005 at 08:47

Turkmens also live in the north of Khorasan but at least linguistically they differ from Khorasani Turks.

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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2005 at 09:33

Dear All,

   Hi there. Hope you're doing Fine. Well, I'm a Turkmen from Turkmenistan. 'Behtarin arezoo ha ham khedmate aghaye Shahmiri; Turke aziz!!!' As it turns out, something's wrong with our history. I just wanted to mention this:

   Well, when you talk about Turkmens, you refer to people living in Turkmenistan, China, Uzbekistan, Kyrgizestan, Kazakstan and north east of Iran (Golestan Province). They've got cat-like eye; it shows they are pur Turk. Now why pure Turk? You know real Turks used to live in Mongolia. And they had pulled eyes like a cat. Anyhow, Turkmen Turkish  (Oghuz Turk) is the south-western branch of Turkish languages; including Anatolia Turkish and Azeri Turkish.

   About Khorasani Turks; because I've seen lots of them; well, linguistically, they differ from Anatolia or Azeri Turkish; but really close to Turkmen language. But, anyhow, if you ask a Turkmen like me; I'll tell you that Khorasani Turks' languages is really like ours; but closer to Uzbek. Especially in the structure of verbs. Let me tell you and example: 'You go' is said as' gedasan' in Uzbek, 'kiteyin' or 'kiteyim' in Turkmen and 'gedasan' in Khorasani Turks' language.. Star is said as' Ulduz in Uzbek', 'Yildiz' in Turkmen and 'ulduz in Khorasani Turks' language. A lot more can be said like that.

   By the way, the people who are called Turkmens in Anatolia are not really Turkmens. I don't it myself why they're called Turkmen; because they haven't got pulled eyes like Turkmens. Even the accent is different.

   Azeris are not of Yellow Great Rag as Turkmens, Kazaks, Kyrgizes, Uzbeks and Mongols are (in fact, they are all relatives). They were of persian elements to whome Turkish languages was compelled by Seljuk Turkmens (they were Oghuz, you know all).

 

   Take good care and just take it eays.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish

Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2005 at 09:50

Dear All,

   Hi there. Well, this is my second messeage in this forum. I just wanted to tell you this:

   If you want to point to a place where Turkish dialects differents become really obvious, it should be Caspian Sea. On the east coast, you've got Oghuz (Turkmen) Turkish (considered as a dialect), Uzbek dialect (not considered as a dialect; a mitxure of Oghuz and Kiptchak with borrowings from Mongolian accents); Kazak and Kyrgiz Turkish which are both of Kiptchak Turkish (considered as a dialect).  The above-named accents are really alike. Now, you might say they've got differents. But, those differents are mostly on the pronounciation of words and not in basic verbs.

   On the west coast, you've got Anatolia Turkish and Azeri( none of them as a dialect; both are sub families of Oghuz Turkish belonged to Turkmens). They are close to each other. Now, if you ask a Turk who knows his language very good, almost with no Persian element, he would say Anatolian and Azeri are really different. But, yet, they are more similar to each other than Turkish accents found on the other side of the Sea.

   There's another different. Anatolian and Azeris are not pure Turk; because they're like Persians. But Turks on the right side of the Sea have the charachteristics of real Turks. The most important one is their eyes which are like a cat's eyes. Next, they've got big cheeks. And a lot more. I can simply say that people living on the wrong side of the Caspian Sea are not pure Turks.

   Take good care and just take it easy.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish

Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2005 at 11:09

Best wishes for you too but I'm not a Turk!

Turkmens are one of the rare nations in the world who have preserved their ancient culture very well, there are many things which show they are pure Turks for example whenas other Turkic peoples and also Iranians have mostly Islamic Arabic names, most of Turkmens have beautiful Turkish names such as Maral (Red deer),  Elmira (Devoted to the tribe), Alma (Apple), Alish (Flame), Ayda (In the moon), Ayla (Halo around the moon), Tiram (Great lady), Solmaz (Unfading), Narin (Shining), Sanaz (Rare), ... (those are not my girlfriends! )

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2005 at 11:45

No. Especially the Turkmens of Anatolia still get the heritage of Khorasan. They call themselves sometimes as "Khorasan Erenleri", "Khorasan Alp Erenleri"..... They are Alevis of Turkey.

Some of the Azeri Turks belong to the Turkmens who have returned from Anatolia to Azerbaijan after clashes with Ottoman Turks around 16th century. But there were other Turkic groups also from Oghuzs sttled in Azerbaijan before these events of course.

That is absolutely correct. My grandpa's father used to be called a "Horasan alpereni" as my grandpa tells me...

  Turkmens are one of the rare nations in the world who have preserved their ancient culture very well, there are many things which show they are pure Turks for example whenas other Turkic peoples and also Iranians have mostly Islamic Arabic names, most of Turkmens have beautiful Turkish names such as Maral (Red deer),  Elmira (Devoted to the tribe), Alma (Apple), Alish (Flame), Ayda (In the moon), Ayla (Halo around the moon), Tiram (Great lady), Solmaz (Unfading), Narin (Shining), Sanaz (Rare), ... (those are not my girlfriends! )

These names are also oftenly used in Turkey, but some of them are out of use now.

And gok toruk, nice to discuss with another Turkmen brother here. But your ideas are wrong in some points. Being a mongoloid doesnt make you a pure Turk, but it means that some of your ancestors were definately mixed with mongoloids. There is no such term as pure Turkish, like other nations dont have such terms too. None of use are pure members of a pure race, this is rediculous. Since the ancient times, a Kipchak Turks are generally blondes, Eastern Turks are generally Mongoloids, and Anatolian Turks are Turanoid, or caucasoid. If Turks have had entered to Africa sometime in history, today, we would have negroid Turks all over Africa. Your Turkness isnt defined according to your race/look etc., but your very common ethnical ancestry and culture.

The western side of caspian sea cannot be identified as a wrong place, like the eastern part of it cannot be called the right place. There is no right/wrong place for a Turk, and this is what makes you a Turk. The rightest place for us is the most suitable place to settle, and adopt as a new homeland. So this is why most of our ancestors have chosen anatolia as their new (maybe not new) homelands. And today, the right place for us is Anatolia, not Mongolian steppes. Because even those places cannot be called our original homelands...

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2005 at 12:43

A bit out of topic, but what are the Alevites? Are they a religious sect or a different national group?

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2005 at 13:18
Originally posted by Yiannis

A bit out of topic, but what are the Alevites? Are they a religious sect or a different national group?

A religious sect. Alevis are mostly Turkmens, and an important number of Kurds.

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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2005 at 22:00

Thank for all informations above.

My concern to Khorasan and its Turkic people is because that part of my ancestors were (probably) originated from Oghuz Turks' Kalach(Kharchi,Kharachin,Kharchai,etc) of Khorasan area. They were Kharchin soldiers served in Mongol troops and eventually became Mongols while mixing with other tribes such as Uriangkhai, Kipachak, Khitan, Naiman, Tumed in Mongolia steppes. However, don't like other ancient Turkic tribes such as Naiman, Kereit, Kangli, Karluk, ect. It seems hard to find Kalachi tribe/clan among present-day turkic groups.

And... what's the meaning of their name Quchani?

 

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2005 at 01:24

I think Kharachi (Black tent) is the Turkish name for Gypsies, isn't it?

what's the meaning of their name Quchani?

Land of Ram, I think.

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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2005 at 01:35
Originally posted by Yiannis

A bit out of topic, but what are the Alevites? Are they a religious sect or a different national group?

Around % 90 of the Alevites are Turkomans. Rest is Kurdish but I think they are Kurdified Turkish tribes. Kurds are most predominantly Sunni Muslims. On the other hand Turkoman Alevits can be considered as Shia. Alevit Turkomans were the founders of Safavids. The shia sect has been shaped especially after this event.  That's why there is a huge difference between Shia and Anatolian Alevites shaped during time. Anatolian Alevites are very modern, carrying still old Turkish rituals ......

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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2005 at 13:18

Dear Oghuz Oghlu,

   Hi there. Thank you very very much for your concern. You know, as it turns out, you've made a misconception. Listen, when I was talking about 'right' side, I meant the right direction. And they use in every day English, 'wrong side' in contrast to the right direction. You see I didn't mean you were not a Turk.

   But, what seems amusing to me is that you might not know that original Turks've got the face I described the way back. Now, Kiptchaks were Blondes, you say? Just look at all those Kazaks and Kyrgizes. They are Kiptchaks. Turks are not Mongol and Mongols are not Turks; they're just like cousins. Both of them dates back to Mongolian Steppes, our former 'Yurt'. Now why people in Turkey don't have charachteristics of a Turk& Mongol tribe? Because they've mixed with Europeans. In history, all over, it's believed (even by you) that your fathers were Oghuzes (Turkmens). Now, how come a man from Turkmenistan (he's one of your brothers and the way to you background, hmm?) have got cat-like eyes, but a man from Turkey (his brother) doesn't?

   You're right. There's no pure Turk. But by the word 'pure', I meant the face of an original Turk. Alright? There's nothing to make you confused.

   Again, I remind you Turks& Mongolians' origin is Mongolian Steppes. By the way, still, a great part of Oghuzes live in Mongolia. They're of the part of Oghuzes that didn't leave 'Otoken'. They've got Mongolian face and it's not because of living there; that's because of their origin. 


   Take good care and just take it easy.

 

Sincerely,

Iltirish

Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2005 at 13:26

Dear Cyrus,

   Hi there. How's it going? Fine, I'd hope. Thanks to leave me a message. You were right. I've always wondered why Iranian Turks've got names in Iranian or Arabic. Now, no way to be rude to Iranian names or something; I just wanted to mention they've got their names unused. Take good care and just take it easy.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish

 

P.S: Some of my favourite names:

Kartal, Temir Tayli, Ak Oyli, Yaghi Basan, Aytan, Shaylan, etc.

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  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2005 at 22:57
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think Kharachi (Black tent) is the Turkish name for Gypsies, isn't it?

In fact, I'm also confused for the exact meaning of my tribename Kharchin. There're mainly three explanations for it:

Some scholars believe Mongol's Kharchin tribe were mainly originated from Karachi clan of Oghuz turks in Khorsan area, and as I know, Kara in Turkic means Black or powerful, and Chi seems mean river or water, so, Karchin seems mean black river, and for Turko-Mongol groups, it was very popular to name themselvse with a river or mountain name.

There're also other sholars who urged that Kipchaks were the most important ancestral origin of the Kharchins, and according to "History of Yuan", yuann shi, Mongols called Kipchak Kharchin because Kipchak could product a kind of very nice blackhorse milk wine, and Hara means Black in Mongolian too, and chi was used to refer those people who engage in some kind of work. so Kharchin means those kipchaks who make black horse milk wine.

There're also a different explanation is base on another origin of the Kharchin, it's the Uriankhai who were the guards of Chinggis Khan and his family, so some thought Kharchin Means guards.

And, I remebered a Kharchai tatar friend ever told me that Chai means tea, I don't if it's a russian word, so Kharchai mean the tatars who drink black tea.  it's bit same to the explanation of black horse milk wine.

 

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  Quote Hushyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2005 at 00:57

Originally posted by Yiannis


what are the Alevites? Are they a religious sect or a different national group?

Alavits generally considered as those who follow alavism,and mostly live in Turkey.Most of them are Anatolian turkomans and the rest are kurds(mostly zaza speaking).They themselves claim their number is between 10 to 30 millin.

Alavism first appeared as a branch of shi'ism and sufism but as time passed ,they formed a distintive style of religion /sect.

Originally posted by Alparslan


On the other hand Turkoman Alevits can be considered as Shia

Not exactly,Alavism had been originated from shiism but it could not be considered as shiism.
Originally posted by Alparslan


Alevit Turkomans were the founders of Safavids.

Correct form is this:Alavits were one of the groups that helped to found safavid dynasty.

Originally posted by Alparslan


The shia sect has been shaped especially after this event

Completely wrong.Shiism has existed from early years of Islam,Doctorine of twelvers that became official religion of Iran after Safavids had been formulated in Sheikh-e-Qomi and Ibn-e-Babevey works in 4 Century AH (10 Century).

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  Quote Hushyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2005 at 01:04
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think Kharachi (Black tent) is the Turkish name for Gypsies, isn't it?

In northern iranian kurdistan and in Azarbaijan ,gypsies are called Qarachi,I think it is compsoed of Qara+ Chi(a turkish suffix which is used in persian and kurdish too)

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  Quote Hushyar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2005 at 01:10
Originally posted by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think Kharachi (Black tent) is the Turkish name for Gypsies, isn't it?

In fact, I'm also confused for the exact meaning of my tribename Kharchin. There're mainly three explanations for it:

Some scholars believe Mongol's Kharchin tribe were mainly originated from Karachi clan of Oghuz turks in Khorsan area, and as I know, Kara in Turkic means Black or powerful, and Chi seems mean river or water, so, Karchin seems mean black river, and for Turko-Mongol groups, it was very popular to name themselvse with a river or mountain name.

There're also other sholars who urged that Kipchaks were the most important ancestral origin of the Kharchins, and according to "History of Yuan", yuann shi, Mongols called Kipchak Kharchin because Kipchak could product a kind of very nice blackhorse milk wine, and Hara means Black in Mongolian too, and chi was used to refer those people who engage in some kind of work. so Kharchin means those kipchaks who make black horse milk wine.

There're also a different explanation is base on another origin of the Kharchin, it's the Uriankhai who were the guards of Chinggis Khan and his family, so some thought Kharchin Means guards.

And, I remebered a Kharchai tatar friend ever told me that Chai means tea, I don't if it's a russian word, so Kharchai mean the tatars who drink black tea.  it's bit same to the explanation of black horse milk wine.

 

With respect to your knowledge ,I don't think there is any relationship between Gypsies and Kharchin (a Mongoloid Tribe),or oguz turks.

Many of today scholars usually think Gypsies are of Indian origin.

 

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