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Origins of The Celts
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Posts: 387 		  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Origins of The Celts
    Posted: 26-Jan-2014 at 20:02
No one knows the “birth place” of the Celtic culture for certain, but many believe it to have been on the Iberian Peninsula. From there the culture spread North East, and North West, eventually homing in on Ireland. There is a contrary view that in fact the Celts originated in Eastern Europe, but, again, this can’t be proved.
My question is, why would the Celts spread in both directions from Spain? What was it that enticed their culture to spread over most of Europe? Would anyone go along with the proposition that while the culture spread, the actual Celtic people did not?
Let’s look at the DNA. The male haplogroup R originated in the Caucasus Region-the Caspian Steppe. Its subclade R1, spread into Western Europe, with the R1a group being strongly associated with the Irish Celts.
It therefore appears more likely to me that the spread of R1 could have moved either with the Celts or with the Bell Beaker culture, which also was East European. Again, it can be argued that the Bell Beaker phenomenon spread through trade and “marriage” rather than via a population movement.
What are the views of other members on the origins of the Celts?
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Posts: 399 		  Quote yomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 14:59
we turkmens have small tribe name kelte live in westren part of golestian kelte is surname among the turkmens   it is strange why we have this tribe maybe the things you know about the celte is much fewer than you think ! take look at this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelteminar_culture
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Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 15:50
Originally posted by toyomotor

No one knows the “birth place” of the Celtic culture for certain, but many believe it to have been on the Iberian Peninsula.
No, only some people believe it (mainly J.Koch and B.Cunliffe). This hypothesis is marginal among present scholars.
We must remember that when we speak about the birthplace of the Celts, it means the region where the Celtic languages began to differentiate from the other IE languages. So the "Iberian hypothesis" assumes that IE people, who came from the East, began to speak a Celtic language in Iberia.

Originally posted by toyomotor

 
It therefore appears more likely to me that the spread of R1 could have moved either with the Celts or with the Bell Beaker culture, which also was East European. Again, it can be argued that the Bell Beaker phenomenon spread through trade and “marriage” rather than via a population movement.
What are the views of other members on the origins of the Celts? 
It's very difficult to match language and genetics. When people change their language, they don't change their genetics.
But other hypotheses can be, as you say, people from the Bell Baker culture, or from the East.
What is for sure is that today, no scholar support the Hallstatt - La Tene model.
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Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 15:55
Originally posted by toyomotor

No one knows the “birth place” of the Celtic culture for certain, but many believe it to have been on the Iberian Peninsula. 
No, only some pople believe it (mainly J.Koch and B.Cunliffe). This hypothesis is very marginal among present scholars.

Originally posted by toyomotor

It therefore appears more likely to me that the spread of R1 could have moved either with the Celts or with the Bell Beaker culture, which also was East European. Again, it can be argued that the Bell Beaker phenomenon spread through trade and “marriage” rather than via a population movement.
What are the views of other members on the origins of the Celts?
It's very difficult to match languages and genetics. When people change their language, their genetics don't change.
As the old Hallstatt-La Tene model is no longer supported by present scholars, there is no consensus on a new model.
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Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 15:59
Originally posted by yomud

we turkmens have small tribe name kelte live in westren part of golestian kelte is surname among the turkmens   it is strange why we have this tribe maybe the things you know about the celte is much fewer than you think ! take look at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelteminar_culture
This culture has nothing to do with the Celts!Smile
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Posts: 399 		  Quote yomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 16:07
Originally posted by Diviacus

Originally posted by yomud

we turkmens have small tribe name kelte live in westren part of golestian kelte is surname among the turkmens   it is strange why we have this tribe maybe the things you know about the celte is much fewer than you think ! take look at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelteminar_culture
This culture has nothing to do with the Celts!Smile



i know i just put it to show you we have keltes here the culture discoverd in kelte area and take it's name from them
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 16:15
What is the definition of Celtic?
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 17:56
Dear Bear, a good question! They are, it seems, very mysterious! They are a lot like the Gauls. LOL

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 28-Jan-2014 at 17:57
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Posts: 387 		  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 19:21
Originally posted by beorna

What is the definition of Celtic?



The basic definition for "Celts" is those people who speak a Celtic language and participate in the Celtic culture. So, originally they may have been predominantly of several tribes, today that is not the case.
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Posts: 387 		  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 19:25
Diviacus: Thanks for the constructive conversation, this is the quality conversation I've been looking for. And I agree with your comments. I thinks the Iberian school of thought for the origins of the Celts is wearing paper thin.
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Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 20:12
What? No comments concerning the Gauls? They seem to present a similar problem! They also seemed to be "everywhere!", and no-where!

Of course they are also considered as "Kelts!"

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 29-Jan-2014 at 22:43
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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forenote i'm not putting any theory or proof, just some tidbits that might be of use/interest (also i hope diviacus is not davidius from historum, i'm abit worried of a historum take over of AE.)

I think the answer (is multidisciplinary and) partly lies in examining Celtic mythology to see where they say or hint/imply they came from (rather than just modern theories on selected physical evidences).
Also, have you read Nennius Historia Brittonum which has some interesting Britons origins theories?

Ultimately the celts do come from the Ark/Ararat (and Babel), but i am not sure which 1 or more of the 70 nations in Genesis 10 they are. There are celt versions of the 4 rivers of Eden, and of the Flood, and of Babel (eg druid Bresal builds a tower like Babel one) etc. (The Caspian/Caucasus haplogroup stuff could possibly connect.)
There is the interesting old Scots / Scythians theory.

the irish had at least 5 different components (partholon, fomor, firbolg, tuatha de danaan, milesian)

Celt myth has Ith (and Milesians?) from Spain. Some connect eire/hibernia with iberia or with arya/eraj.
(Britain was originially "Iberian"/Mediterranean in the (paleolithic)/neolithic. Ripley has 3 races of Europe: nordic, alpine, mediterranean.)

the celts are indoeuropeans so they would orginate from same place as rest of centum or satem indoeuropeans. (mcEvedy thinks danubian was indoeuropean (and he has pcelts and qcelts as different archaeological cultures).) (And you[s] are right to say that celtic is a language (which can spread), though there was a cutlure/people too.)
Scholars say/show that there are connections between Celts and "Tocharians" of Sinkiang/Tarim/Urumchi.
Yomud's (golestian) kelte / kelte(minar) could possibly connect with Tocharian? (Tani Jantsang connects Celts/Scots with Turanians.)

I'm not so sure i agree with modern scholars "debunking" the cimmerians and hallstatt/latene thesis.
(Also, some connect Cymry / Cimmerian / Gomer.)

British Isles "Celts" partially have origins via Atlantis and/or the Heraclids.
There is no doubt that the British isles where visited by people from Atlantis (Tiahuanaco) eg:
celts had towering sefaring ships in caesar's time
concentric rings bryn-celli-ddu
quoits/chambers/dolmens ~ Atlas (sky/earth bearer/pillar) motif?
earthworks & henges/rings/stone circles
stonehenge (concentric rings, 5x2)?
maiden castle (concentric rings)?
disk/bowl/bell/double bell at Normanton Down (rings/clito, canals?)
[baths of Badon ~ Atlantis hot/cold springs?]
"the name of an head of land in Britaine called _Promontorium Herculis_" (pillars of Hercules?)
giant(s) Albion son of Neptune (~ Poseidon/Atlanteans). ('Albyne 1560 bc'?)
44 years Albion/giants ~ 40 years wilderness? 40 years Moses?
Hercules vs Albion/giants = Egypt/Athens vs Atlanteans?
In Jacqueta Hawkes [Atlantis] matches NSA & 'EBA to MBA' (gone bef LBA & IA).
Megaliths on west coast UK (ref Hawkes) = Atlantis [south-]west.
stonehenge damaged on southwest ~ Atlantis "sunk" southwest?
"Latinus, 'king of Chittim', led his army 'against the inhabitants of Britannia' - in the time of Joshua!" [possibly matches Atlanteans/Keftiou/Caphtorim about time of Moses/Joshua?]
{cup/saucer markings clava cairns Inverness, rock art Carndonagh/Doagh, & snakelike pathways/patterns fairy ring Uig Skye ~ 'Atlantis Cross'?}
alanus ~ atlantis?

Lehman in his Hittites book has an interesting map with bull cult plotted from Turkey to Britain.

Llyr/Lir/Ler/Lear ~ Nereus / Njord/Nerthus / Nara
Bran ~ Frey / Pramzimas/Pramziwas / Priam / Priapos / Priapus / Prajapati [~ Japheth?]

LA Waddell thought celt = chaldee, and brutus = bharat. I have wondered if Celt connects with Kittim (& Crete/Krit).

Thats just a quick casual contribution. Theres alot more tidbits, and alot more to say on each one. I guess mine are mostly on British isles "Celts" though, while yours probably more on Continental Celts? Perhaps Celts is too wide having too many tribes/nations, and need to deal with smaller areas & more specific tribes/nations.

(ps sorry i just saw that there is also a diviacus on historum too so can't be same as davidius.)

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 28-Jan-2014 at 22:06
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Posts: 399 		  Quote yomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 03:31
well robin i cant tell anything about Tocharian all i can say we have kelte and maybe irish tribe ! and they live near caspian sea mostly in bandare torkmen this maybe nothing but we cant say they don't exist

http://www.panjpeykar.blogfa.com/cat-21.aspx

this is the web of a turkmen from eire/Erie/iri or what ever you call ! his name is samad eire/Erie/iri
صمد ایری

push the buttom of listen so you could hear his name

http://translate.google.com/#fa/en/%D8%B5%D9%85%D8%AF%20%D8%A7%DB%8C%D8%B1%DB%8C

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandar-e_Torkaman
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Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 03:57
Originally posted by toyomotor

 The basic definition for "Celts" is those people who speak a Celtic language and participate in the Celtic culture.
More precisely, the usual definition for "Celts" is those people who speak a Celtic language. We don't add "and participate in the Celtic culture" because:
- It's difficult to define a Celtic culture. Cultures are defined by a certain number of elements including language, religion, customs, art, ... Some people (or tribes) have a certain number of these elements but not all. We usually speak of "Celtic cultures" as the Celtiberian culture is different from the culture of the Belgae, Galatians, Helvetii,...
- It's very likely that some people didn't speak a Celtic language, but adopted some elements of Celtic cultures.
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Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 03:59
Originally posted by opuslola

Dear Bear, a good question! They are, it seems, very mysterious! They are a lot like the Gauls. LOL 
Ron
Nothing mysterious, either like the Gauls. As for every ancient cultures we don't have all the information, but there have been so many archaelogical findings for the last 30 years that we can say we have a good view of the Celts and Gaulish cultures Smile
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Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 04:00
Originally posted by yomud

well robin i cant tell anything about Tocharian all i can say we have kelte and maybe irish tribe ! and they live near caspian sea mostly in bandare torkmen this maybe nothing but we cant say they don't exist
These people have never been considered as Celts by serious historians.
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Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 04:07
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

Also, have you read Nennius Historia Brittonum which has some interesting Britons origins theories?
Ultimately the celts do come from the Ark/Ararat (and Babel), but i am not sure which 1 or more of the 70 nations in Genesis 10 they are. There are celt versions of the 4 rivers of Eden, and of the Flood, and of Babel (eg druid Bresal builds a tower like Babel one) etc. (The Caspian/Caucasus haplogroup stuff could possibly connect.)
There is the interesting old Scots / Scythians theory. 
All these legends have been written during the middle ages, so most historians don't take them into account to define the Ancient Celts cultures.

Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

Scholars say/show that there are connections between Celts and "Tocharians" of Sinkiang/Tarim/Urumchi. 
This old theory has been abandoned for more than 30 years.

Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

British Isles "Celts" partially have origins via Atlantis and/or the Heraclids.
There is no doubt that the British isles where visited by people from Atlantis (Tiahuanaco) eg:
celts had towering sefaring ships in caesar's time 
Please don't mix history and fanciful legends Smile
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Sorry i am very grumpy/rude alot these last few days. I am worried I may end up getting banned or even appear attacking others as i complained been done to me. (I have a hell situation/condition here and historum posters really got to me.)

Just because it has been abandoned for 30 years doesn't mean its wrong/they are right. I am not yet convinced it is right. Mainstream scholars have abandoned things before and been wrong.

Who are they to declare theirs is history and others fanciful/legends, or what should or shouldn't be taken in to account. I'd rather trust ancient traditions/memories than modern theories. Atlantis has been found its not fanciful/legend. "Nennius" Historia Brittonum/Wonders has been partially proven now. The evidences i posted are facts not fancieful/legends. History must be holistic/multi-disciplinary and consider/synthesise all sources "myths/legends"/bible, linguistics, archaeology, genetics, etc.

don't start the "serious historians" accusation, man i am fed up with the old "serious" "scholars/academics/scientists/experts/professionals" versus supposedly not-serious "woo-woo"/etc always being slung around on "academic" forums (like happened on arthurnet, sussex egyptological society, historum, hall of maat, etc).
"Serious historians" are often wrong (but they play it down) and "non serious" are sometimes right.

---------------

Sorry for my rude Diviacus. Thanks for your reply.

I have casually/quickly gone through the table of 70 nations to try see where celts might come/fit. Looks like mainly Japhethite (Gomer &/or Magog &/or Javan?) : (I know its not very scientific etc, its just quick/casual)

noah (nu(a)da/nudd)?
japheth (capet, bran/frey/priapos/prajapati, dispater, sceaf/seskef)?
gomer (cimmerians , cymry , cimbri , humber , gower)?
magog/gog ("gogmagog" , mac oc, ogma, magus, bojus/boii/bohemian/bavarian)?
madai (mide/meath)?
tiras (tara , trojans/trinovantes , eire, tile)?
tubal (hibernia/tiberius)?
ashkenaz (scots, scyths, histion/isceio)?
riphath (brutus, rhaetian)?
tarshish (tara)?
kittim (celt, cruithne, cassi/catti, scythian)?
dodanim (druid, teutones)?
ham (ogma, camulos, segomo, camboblascon)?
cush (angus, cu, tuscus, tuisco)?
p(h)ut (brutus)?
havilah (helvetii, avalon)?
nimrod (myrddin/merlin, nemed)?
shinar (salisbury plain)?
ludim (london)?
heth (ith)?
amorite (fomor)?
shem (rigisamos, sarmatian, samothean, segomo)?
asshur (sulis, arthur)?
lud (london, lugdus)?
mash (macha, math)
eber (iberian, hibernia, emer)?
hazarmaveth (sarmata/sarmatian , samothea)??

(i have to check my other files for maybe more to add.)


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 29-Jan-2014 at 05:28
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Posts: 399 		  Quote yomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 04:37
Originally posted by Diviacus

Originally posted by yomud

well robin i cant tell anything about Tocharian all i can say we have kelte and maybe irish tribe ! and they live near caspian sea mostly in bandare torkmen this maybe nothing but we cant say they don't exist
These people have never been considered as Celts by serious historians.
cuz these people never get studded them or in fact never know they were exist ! lets be honest i dont know about europ and it's people , history and culture i just know about my own country b4 this topic i even didn't hear anything Celts right now im reading it's wikipedia page
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Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 06:15
Originally posted by yomud

Originally posted by Diviacus

These people have never been considered as Celts by serious historians.
cuz these people never get studded them or in fact never know they were exist ! lets be honest i dont know about europ and it's people , history and culture i just know about my own country b4 this topic i even didn't hear anything Celts right now im reading it's wikipedia page
I only say that the hundreds of historians who wrote on the Celts since the beginning of the 20th century never mentioned them. If you think these people are somewhat Celtic, you will have to show their language is Celtic.Smile
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