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Darts, used in battle ! What were they?

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Darts, used in battle ! What were they?
    Posted: 16-Dec-2013 at 20:15
The use of the word translated in many languages as "Dart" or "Darts" comes from where? In my remembrance it exists in the Bible, and as well into the heart of the Early Middle Ages!

So, just what can we consider "darts" to be?

I await your ideas with bated breath!

Smile, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 19-Dec-2013 at 21:55
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2013 at 04:45
That is a good question opuslola, the word "dart" seems to have a Germanic origin, Old High German tart, so it could be related to an Iranian word, I talked about a similar thing here: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24637&PID=496563#496563

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Persian/Avestan draxt actually means "small tree" (dar/dra + diminutive suffix "-xt"), you remember our discussion about Middle Persian Knixt and Old English Cniht (boy/girl, servant, knight). Modern Persian "dar" and "tir" are synonym, so "taxt" could be in fact "traxt" (small timber).
Avestan tighri relates to Modern Persian "tigh" (thorn) or "tiz" (sharp), of course Persian "tir/tyr" also means "arrow" (the rune of Tyr, god of war).


For this reason "tirxt" (tirt) could mean "small arrow", dart/tart could be different forms of it.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2013 at 06:43
Dear Cyrus! Thanks for your response.

Yes, I agree that the usage of a descriptive word like "dart", today at least, seems to indicate they were small arrows and today they are only used in crossbows or hand thrown.

Of course some historians and other experts somewhere, sometime also used the term "bolts" to describe this weapons projectile.

What this solution creates is something of a problem for chronology however, since the term "dart" seems to have been used to describe a weapon that proceeds the invention of the cross-bow.

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 18-Dec-2013 at 18:04
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2013 at 10:50
The term Dart is used to describe a weapon that preceeds even the bow itself, The Atlatl.  I don't know if that's a modern usage applied to an ancient weapon, but the term is used in archaeology to describe the projectile thrown by the Atlatl.  The word Atlatl is used in the Americas to describe a "spear thrower".  The dart itself was usually less than 3 ft. in length, and used a point much smaller than an "arrowhead".  I don't know what the atlatl would have been called in Europe, as the only known use of "atl" outside of the Americas is Atlantic and Atlas.
 
The Archaic peoples here in the US used the Atlatl.  The bow and arrow doesn't appear until well into the Woodland period.  I've found quite a few "dart points" and several "broad spear" heads, but to date, none I can positively call an "arrowhead".  Actually, most of the arrowheads folks find here are, in fact dart points. 
 
 
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2013 at 16:52
Dear Red, I have seen video representation of spears being launched via the use of the Atlatl, and the length of the shaft of the spear is much longer than three feet. These can be found on U-Tube!

Here is but one example! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGiuKyHkwmw

And another one; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpjpY1kWfjw

From what source did you come by with the three foot length? With a shaft length of but three feet, you might well throw it into your own head. smile.

Note Red, that your arm from your neck to your hand is about three feet, and then add the length of the wooden advantage leverage, and the butt of the shaft might well be five or more feet behind your head. As I said, you might well launch the "dart" into your own head! But a shaft five to seven feet long would offer some protection to your self, and as well add a lot of mass into the enemy!

And, here Red Clay is what another site has to say;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dart_(missile) And, as sometimes the case this Wiki article is written and edited, by idiots!

But the use of the word "missile" is good!

I believe that even some Biblical verses mention an attack of "darts!", but of course translations are in the hands of the translator! Smile

One might even realize that even without a vowel, the word "drt" is still dart! or maybe "dirt"? Smile!

So can any of you figure out where I am going next?

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 19-Dec-2013 at 22:06
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2013 at 18:31
Why don't some of you understand reality? It is most obvious that in Ancient battles, any arrow you shot and missed or any arrow that your enemy shot and stood nearby, or stuck into your friend, would immediately become another reload for you or for the enemy!

The same goes for throwing spears, or javelins into the enemy ranks! The enemy then picks these items up and throws them back! This is, in my opinion, merely common sense! The weapons of the enemy in those days became ammunition for you and your comrades in arms.

Modern war movies, often show soldiers summarily discard the weapons of their opponents, which is a most stupid move! You just have to agree that is so!

In other words, you are in armed combat, and you are armed with 12 to 20 arrows, and 3-6 javelins or spears, and you run out of them!!! What do you do now? Well looking around the same battlefield it might well be that hundreds of your enemies arrows and spears, or javelins might well be right next to you, so what do you do? LOL

So?

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 17-Dec-2013 at 19:34
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2013 at 21:57
OK! I guess I've got a few of you awaiting one of my very great responses to questions never asked.

Well here it is;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow

Just what is the main difference between a "bolt" and a "Dart?" I have already disproved the the contention of Red Clay. "Dart", is just as good of a descriptive word to describe the projectile from a cross-bow as any other!

Perhaps some of you will unwillingly have to agree? After all they look like "darts!" Duh!

So, just why do so many "experts" reject the notion?

Of course there is an answer to my question, but I sure would like for someone, other than myself to answer this question. I am but a dolt on this site with a number of well educated persons well versed in History.

Some even have "diplomas!"

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 19-Dec-2013 at 21:54
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2013 at 21:51
No response to the above? Funny!

Have any of you any idea that Biblical stories seem to mention the use of either "missiles or darts!"

As it seems ancient Greek accounts!~

Then it seems we next see these terms used in the Middle Ages!

HUH?

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 19-Dec-2013 at 22:10
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2013 at 22:39
From what I've read over the years, I believe that the word "Dart" was used for a short throwing spear, as opposed to the longer, heavier spear which was used to jab opponents.
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2013 at 07:50
Originally posted by opuslola


What this solution creates is something of a problem for chronology however, since the term "dart" seems to have been used to describe a weapon that proceeds the invention of the cross-bow.

Ron


Firstly, a 'dart' was not invented to fit the crossbow, but the crossbow was developed to more effectively throw a 'dart'. The darts used were modified to enhance their compatibility with the crossbow, but the object/term pre-existed the crossbow.

Secondly, the use of terms to describe objects changes over time. Present day archaeologists can use the term 'dart' when referring to an object without it being a chronological problem. The term 'dart' can cover a number of objects, not just crossbow missiles.

Edited by Sidney - 28-Dec-2013 at 07:51
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2013 at 19:59
Originally posted by Sidney

Originally posted by opuslola


What this solution creates is something of a problem for chronology however, since the term "dart" seems to have been used to describe a weapon that proceeds the invention of the cross-bow.

Ron


Firstly, a 'dart' was not invented to fit the crossbow, but the crossbow was developed to more effectively throw a 'dart'. The darts used were modified to enhance their compatibility with the crossbow, but the object/term pre-existed the crossbow.

Secondly, the use of terms to describe objects changes over time. Present day archaeologists can use the term 'dart' when referring to an object without it being a chronological problem. The term 'dart' can cover a number of objects, not just crossbow missiles.

The missile used in conjunction with cross bows was called a "bolt". Darts were used a thousand (or so) years before the cross bow was invented.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2013 at 22:44
Unless my mind and memory have made me mistaken, it seems that Biblical history from about 400 BCE mentions "darts" used in battles, then there seems to be a large gap in time until the word was used or translated as "dart" into the 14th century CE.

Thus there seems to exist a gap of about 1,800 years between mentions. And, I further seem to remember when the word "bolt" became a usable substitute for the word "dart!", and as I remember this became a reality when solid steel darts became the common short arrow, and followed the desire to overcome the more modern steel plate armour and it also was shot from a crossbow!

Ron



Edited by opuslola - 09-Jan-2014 at 09:16
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  Quote yomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 14:33
Originally posted by opuslola

The use of the word translated in many languages as "Dart" or "Darts" comes from where? In my remembrance it exists in the Bible, and as well into the heart of the Early Middle Ages!

So, just what can we consider "darts" to be?

I await your ideas with bated breath!

Smile, Ron
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 19:57
And that makes sense yomud! It is a "quick: movement, and if one was to avoid such a slap one would be quicker! Smile!

But, my friend, just what were "darts" before they became the ammo for a "Cross-bow?" References are made that indicated armored warriors were covered in them!

I propose that they only existed and called "darts" with the development of the "cross-bow!"

That is of course only my opinion! I could, of course, be wrong?

Ron

Edited by opuslola - 28-Jan-2014 at 20:02
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2014 at 20:06
Originally posted by red clay

The term Dart is used to describe a weapon that preceeds even the bow itself, The Atlatl.  I don't know if that's a modern usage applied to an ancient weapon, but the term is used in archaeology to describe the projectile thrown by the Atlatl.  The word Atlatl is used in the Americas to describe a "spear thrower".  The dart itself was usually less than 3 ft. in length, and used a point much smaller than an "arrowhead".  I don't know what the atlatl would have been called in Europe, as the only known use of "atl" outside of the Americas is Atlantic and Atlas.
 

The Archaic peoples here in the US used the Atlatl.  The bow and arrow doesn't appear until well into the Woodland period.  I've found quite a few "dart points" and several "broad spear" heads, but to date, none I can positively call an "arrowhead".  Actually, most of the arrowheads folks find here are, in fact dart points. 

 

 


But Red Clay, the history mostly states that the "Atlatl" was used to increase the range of the hand thrown "spear!" So just how do you make the explanation above?
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  Quote yomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 03:33
Originally posted by opuslola

And that makes sense yomud! It is a "quick: movement, and if one was to avoid such a slap one would be quicker! Smile!



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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 06:39
Originally posted by opuslola

And that makes sense yomud! It is a "quick: movement, and if one was to avoid such a slap one would be quicker! Smile!

But, my friend, just what were "darts" before they became the ammo for a "Cross-bow?" References are made that indicated armored warriors were covered in them!

I propose that they only existed and called "darts" with the development of the "cross-bow!"

That is of course only my opinion! I could, of course, be wrong?

Ron


Ron, the projectile used in conjunction with cross bows was called a "bolt"! The dart predated the bolt by a couple of millennia, and was thrown, you know, like the darts used with a dart board.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 18:45
I would suggest that in the modern literature concerning the crossbow and its ammunition, I did not see it anywhere described with the usage of the word "dart!"

I did find this, however;   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarrel

The sites I perused most commonly used the word "arrow!"
And if you actually looked at the Wikipedia site above you also saw a photo of a "bolt." A "bolt" made of solid steel! And strangely enough they are about the size and shape of a modern "dart" used in the game of "Darts!"

I propose an answer to the original question. That is, the original "quarrels" were made of wood or bamboo, etc., and these shafts were attached at one time to a stone arrow head (and later to a an Iron head), and some kind of feathered wings on the back, just like a regular arrow. In addition. it seems the development of body armor became so good that the best the crossbow Quarrel could do was to sometimes penetrate it just enough to keep it attached to the armor so the knights sometimes looked like pincushions!   But the deadly tips often did not penetrate enough to pierce the skin or body of the knight.

So there became a war between the makers of crossbows and the armor of the knights. It even appears the famous English Longbow, became the better weapon against armored knights, for a while at least, that is until the crossbow makers were finally able to shape and test a new type of quarrel that was made of solid steel, since it looked much like a metal "bolt" (and perhaps the first ones developed were fashioned from one?) it was discovered it could defeat even the best sheet metal armor of the times but in but a few years gunpowder and bullets proved the deadliest of the bunch! The name became famous, and the word arrow was revived for the smaller crossbows of these times.

Thus the "bolt" is around the same size as our common day darts. smile

Ron
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2014 at 15:43
Originally posted by opuslola

Originally posted by red clay

The term Dart is used to describe a weapon that preceeds even the bow itself, The Atlatl.  I don't know if that's a modern usage applied to an ancient weapon, but the term is used in archaeology to describe the projectile thrown by the Atlatl.  The word Atlatl is used in the Americas to describe a "spear thrower".  The dart itself was usually less than 3 ft. in length, and used a point much smaller than an "arrowhead".  I don't know what the atlatl would have been called in Europe, as the only known use of "atl" outside of the Americas is Atlantic and Atlas.
 

The Archaic peoples here in the US used the Atlatl.  The bow and arrow doesn't appear until well into the Woodland period.  I've found quite a few "dart points" and several "broad spear" heads, but to date, none I can positively call an "arrowhead".  Actually, most of the arrowheads folks find here are, in fact dart points. 

 

 


But Red Clay, the history mostly states that the "Atlatl" was used to increase the range of the hand thrown "spear!" So just how do you make the explanation above?
 
 
The Atlatl both increased range and velocity of a shafted stone "point".  The length of the "dart" runs from 3 ft to just a little over 7 ft, depending upon the circumstances and the user.  Most modern users report finding a "dart" over 6 ft cumbersome and reduces accuracy. 
 
A short dart with a small point, useually referred to as a "Birdie" was commonly used for hunting small game.  To use the term "Spear" in refs to the Atlatl is incorrect.  Spears had a much larger head.  However, the term Broadspear can be applied to any large point however, most were actually used as a knife.
 
Source site- World Atlatl Association.
 
Ron, I would have thought that being in the heart of Mississippian country you'd be more familiar with the Atlatl and the points and in particular, "Banner stones".
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2014 at 17:03
Nice post RC! But did not you look at the examples I presented earlier? I found no one throwing a three foot arrow via an Atlatl!

Perhaps you can show us one or two doing it with a three foot dart?

And, I have never hunted for an arrowhead in my life! And the term "Banner stones" has never been seen by me until you posted it above!



Regards, Ron

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bannerstone

Whilst I am probably part Native American on both sides of my family, I have never had much interest in the history of that side, since there really exist no evidence of it in our Southern history, other than family stories.

Edited by opuslola - 31-Jan-2014 at 17:07
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