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What if St. Peter's in Rome is not really Ancient?

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What if St. Peter's in Rome is not really Ancient?
    Posted: 30-Nov-2013 at 21:49
My contention is that St. Peter's basilica in Rome is not as old as we are told. I suggest that any of you who care, actually try to find any certified painting or drawing of it, that precedes 1450 C.E.?

OK, I await a lot of responses.

I should have phrased by opening sentence as "the churches / basilicas that stood within the Vatican is not limited to the two that are mentioned today. There could be at least three building, and as few as two but not the Roman style basilica that is shown.

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 04-Dec-2013 at 20:28
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2013 at 21:41
Still no one has responded? Maybe most of you have some reservations about the age of this monument to Catholicism! As well you should!

Hundreds of years and no extant paintings, or drawings or etchings or woodcuts of the facility? None? At least none you can rely upon.

One would think that the very church itself would have kept a record?

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 02-Dec-2013 at 21:57
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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 10:15
I don't care. :|


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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 10:31
Originally posted by KongMing

I don't care. :|


 
 
Ditto.
 
 
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 11:46
2 do "not care" and one tell us more about it!Big smile
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 12:13
If you actually read the history instead of half assing it, you would see that the original was just one of those constructed by Constantine.  By the 1400's it was in a state of disrepair and was torn down. 
Work on the present structure began in 1500.  It wasn't finished until the late 1600's.  There are stacks and reams of drawings and accounts.
BTW, both structures were built over the tomb of St.Peter.
 
No Mystery.
 
 
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 15:24
But we still do not know colequator's opinion Red!We spoke a lot of contra arguments against what?According your words he is right building we knew had been built after 1400 A.D.How did it
look before it?!?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 18:07
Thanks medenaywe,

I am sorry that Red Clay and his friend, "don't care", but maybe they should?

My point is that our agreed upon history only mentions the 1st Basilica and its destruction and the New Basilica that we see today. According to Wiki "Old St. Peter's Basilica was the fourth-century church begun by the Emperor Constantine the Great between 319 and 333 AD.[18" Thus this style of basilica is thought to be common to the times of Constantine or the 4th century CE, and it is agreed that it stood, in that form for over 1,000 years. But, what it really looked like is mere speculation and based upon no real facts. This seems to be true since over that 1,000 year period, there seems to be no extant paintings, woodcuts, etchings, etc. of said basilica! And as far as I know, no remains of it have ever been discovered.

I contend, that if indeed there was a great Basilica on this site it was not actually built 1,600 years ago, and even if a basilica stood on this site it was not the immediate predecessor of the current basilica.
That is the reason I asked for any of you to find and display an image of it during its 1,000 year history. One would think there would have been hundreds or thousands of examples to examine, but alas that is not the case. I do have access to a painting of St. Peters in or about 1457 CE, and it shows a Gothic style building looking nothing like the basilica style that is often shown as an example of the 1st St. Peter's!

Regards, Ron (the half-ass)

Edited by opuslola - 03-Dec-2013 at 18:15
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 19:54
Here is a painting from c.1455-60 by Jean Fouquet, showing Charlemagne being crowned inside the Basilica in 800. Not a contemporary image of the event, but maybe an accurate rendition of the interior of the Basilica in the 15th Century? Would the image match the 'new' Basilica or the 'old' Basilica?



Edited by Sidney - 03-Dec-2013 at 19:56
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 20:25
Is there some reason why the exact age matters?  
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 20:52
Originally posted by Sidney

Here is a painting from c.1455-60 by Jean Fouquet, showing Charlemagne being crowned inside the Basilica in 800. Not a contemporary image of the event, but maybe an accurate rendition of the interior of the Basilica in the 15th Century? Would the image match the 'new' Basilica or the 'old' Basilica?



Thanks for the image. But trying to paint a portrait of an event reportedly 600 years before, is trying for anyone, and especially then.

Certainly the interior looks like a typical Basilica from the 4th century or so, but since the "histories" stated that a basilica existed in Rome at that time, then a Roman style basilica it would be.

Regards, Ron
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 21:00
If anyone here wants to read about the strange life of "The Old St. Peter's" in Rome then Wiki has a site devoted to it. Here is a part of the discussion page at said site.

" the "original" source! So, it is to be found in an illumination variously called "Panoramic view of Rome, from Euclid, Geometry." Vat. Lat. 2224, fol. 98 recto. Phttp://libcat.slu.edu/search~S5?/tElements.+Latin.+1457./telements+latin+1457/-3%2C-1%2C0%2CB/frameset&FF=telements+latin+1457&1%2C1%2C Perhaps this will help you? http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/b-archeology/images/arch10.jpg A visual aid at last. Regards, 96.19.159.196 (talk) 20:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes"

The dating is assumed to be 1457 CE/AD

The above is a part of my communication with Wiki over a long period. But it does show a very "Gothic" looking structure located at what can only be upon the same site as the current St. Peter's!

Here is the http for the example;
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/b-archeology/images/arch10.jpg


Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 06-Dec-2013 at 19:56
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 21:16
Here it is, I hope someone with the talent can convert it to an image that can be viewed here by anyone.

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/b-archeology/images/arch10.jpg
The alleged dating of the above is 1457 CE/AD! Right before its destruction.

If any of you care, you can read all of my discussion arguments at the "Old St. Peter's" site in Wiki, in the discussion section.

Alas, it seems Wiki has deleted most all of my posts.

Which can be accessed here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Old_St._Peter%27s_Basilica

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 04-Dec-2013 at 09:40
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 21:24
Originally posted by KongMing

I don't care. :|



And sir or lady, I don't care about you or your ideas, that is until you provide me with some ideas. LOL
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 23:55
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2013 at 00:39
Phttp://libcat.slu.edu/search~S5?/tElements.+Latin.+1457./telements+latin+1457/-3%2C-1%2C0%2CB/frameset&FF=telements+latin+1457&1%2C1%2C
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/b-archeology/images/arch10.jpg A visual aid at last. Regards, 96.19.159.196 (talk) 20:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes" 

 
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2013 at 09:44
Originally posted by Sidney

Here is a painting from c.1455-60 by Jean Fouquet, showing Charlemagne being crowned inside the Basilica in 800. Not a contemporary image of the event, but maybe an accurate rendition of the interior of the Basilica in the 15th Century? Would the image match the 'new' Basilica or the 'old' Basilica?



Dear Sidney, here is a painting by Raphael showing the same event.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Picture+of+Charlemagne+Being+Crowned&id=3BE757ABF3A7D6C1F89C79AB5FA176FDDDFD9907&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=2B3F612F588D364500ECEA7A2156FF9EE77C3A1C&selectedIndex=12

I ask the same question, "Would the image match the 'new' Basilica or the 'old' Basilica?" There does exist numerous versions of this event however.

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 04-Dec-2013 at 09:46
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2013 at 18:28
Originally posted by opuslola

Originally posted by Sidney

Here is a painting from c.1455-60 by Jean Fouquet, showing Charlemagne being crowned inside the Basilica in 800. Not a contemporary image of the event, but maybe an accurate rendition of the interior of the Basilica in the 15th Century? Would the image match the 'new' Basilica or the 'old' Basilica?



Thanks for the image. But trying to paint a portrait of an event reportedly 600 years before, is trying for anyone, and especially then.

Certainly the interior looks like a typical Basilica from the 4th century or so, but since the "histories" stated that a basilica existed in Rome at that time, then a Roman style basilica it would be.

Regards, Ron

I thought this particular image was interesting because it dates from the time that the Old Basilica was still standing, and unlike most renditions of the event, does show the interior of the building quite clearly. The painter had also been to Rome and been into the Basilica, so it seems likely to be based on what he had seen himself.

If it looks like the Old Basilica is meant to look like, then it probably was the Old Basilica as it appeared in c.1460. Painters at this time were known for placing historical people within their (the painters)clothes and landscapes - the clothes and regalia in this painting date from the time of the painter, not from the date of Charlemagne, and so does the building. Its not evidence that this is how the building looked in 800, but I believe is evidence of how it looked in c.1460.


Edited by Sidney - 04-Dec-2013 at 18:30
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2013 at 20:22
Originally posted by Mountain Man

Is there some reason why the exact age matters?  



I am sorry Mountain Man that I did not answer you earlier. There is no exact date that bothers me but rather the pat answer that only two Basilicas have stood within the confines of the Vatican.

I think the representation that I showed here dated 1457 CE, depicts a Cathedral that was anything but a very ancient Roman style basilica, it seems to me to be in the Gothic style.

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 04-Dec-2013 at 20:24
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2013 at 20:35
And it is very strange but this representation of a Gothic style cathedral, http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/b-archeology/images/arch10.jpg Has disappeared from both this site and suddenly all of the material on the Wikipedia site also disappeared!

If any of you do look at this representation, for you to understand my position, you would need to expand it and possibly view it in black and white. If you do so, and if you are familiar with the view of Rome from the Dome of the New Basilica, you will easily be able to identify the Pope's passage (passeto), the Tomb of Hadrian (the fortress) and the obvious dome of the Pantheon and some have even claimed they can see the Ara Coeli.

Regards, Ron



Edited by opuslola - 04-Dec-2013 at 20:59
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