Who are the descendants of ancient Scythi

Hushyar,

I dont think the racial issue is very important. But it was what the discussion was about, so I had to mention some facts.

Of course Oguz people, and naturally Turkmens have slanted eyes, who denied it? They still have slanted eyes, and I know it better than you or anyone else in this forum, I am a Turkmen from Anatolia. And to Iranians, they had different and pretty faces and eyes, that is why they called Turkmens beautiful.

But about burnt skins, I think we agree on that was a feature about life conditions of those times.

Also I have found that picture showing an Iranian Ghulun and a Turkmen Beg in AE. And that men really look like a Turkmen Beg. But not sure about the Ghulun.

Where are Turks in scythians time?  Where they lived 2500 years ago?

Scytho Sarmatian genes are spread from Pakistan to Eastern Europe, that does not mean that the Scythians were Pakistanis, Turks or Slavs.

Originally posted by kobalt Where are Turks in scythians time?  Where they lived 2500 years ago?

This is an excellent question that I would also like to have answered. It's clearto me that Scytho-Sarmatians were IE-speakers and that they eventually were displaced/conquered/assimilated by Turkic peoples.

The first rather clear reference to Turks are the Huns/Xiongnu. Who are first located in Eastern Central Asia (UNESCO description) and then in all steppary Asia, from Manchuria to the Caucasus. Whatever the origins of the Xiongnu core, it's likely that, like Gengis Khan later, they confederated many Turkic tribes and brought them into empire building.

In anys case it seems clear that Turkic-speakers  replaced IE-speaking Scythians in the steppes since (the lattest) 300 BCE. Of course, I assume that many people considered Scythians and other ethncities were assimilated, even if the steppary enviroment and way of life provide for easier demic change, as probably happened at least in Kazakhstan, whose population seems almost identical to Mongolians genetically.

It's been argued in another topic that most of the tribes that Gengis unified were not true Mongols but actually Turks. So maybe Mongolia and nearby regions is not a bad place to look for Turkic origins, specially considering the genetic  identity between Mongols and Khazaks and the scarce early historical references.


Modern distribution of Turkic languages


Western Hunnic Empire (Attila)


Gokturk Khanates and their areas of influence (dark shades).

See: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5839& ;PN=1

Originally posted by Akskl Can anybody present any proofs that Scythians and Sarmatians were Iranian speakers, please?

Can anybody present any proofs that Scythians and Sarmatians were Turkic speakers, please?  

OK. Can anybody present any genetic links between Scythians, Sarmatians and modern Iranians or Ossetians, please?

Originally posted by Akskl OK. Can anybody present any genetic links between Scythians, Sarmatians and modern Iranians or Ossetians, please?

It is very strange request. What would you do with those "genetic links"? Ossetians are more likely to be descendents of Alans than any ones else. As I understand there is no genetic alalysis held about genetics of Alans. But I do not see it woud be even reasonable to do, because there is a huge lot of historic material (Georgian, Armenian, Arabic, etc.) proving Ossetians are directly related to Alans by land and historical mission. As Alans are likely to be related to Ossetians, Sarmatians are to be so also, because Alans were a Sarmatian tribe. I have looked through some Turkic theories about Alans being Turks, but I have not found serious arguments supporting those theories. As a rule the theories do not match geography and historical events of Alans. That is about Alans. Some of Turkic historians say Ossetians are descendents of Aorsi, but not Alans. Anyway Aorsi are a Sarmatian tribe also. I would not say Scythians were Iranians with high level of confidence. I can understand there are to few details about them, but Sarmatians are to be Iranians with almost no doubt. However can you give us such "genetic" material, which can prove Sarmatians to be Turks?

Edited by Anbalan

Originally posted by Akskl OK. Can anybody present any genetic links between Scythians, Sarmatians and modern Iranians or Ossetians, please?

If you are good in interpeting DNA data, I give you an article about MtDNA data of Caucasus population http://www.netrover.com/~rous1/cauc.pdf . I do not know much in the subject, so I might mistake. But what I see from the "Dimension1" plot is the Kazakh,  Kyrgyz and Turk are very distant from Iranians (Iran Isfahun and Iran Tegeran). However look how close Russians, Chekians, other Slavic nations and nations of Caucasus are to Iranians. How come, if all those Scythians, Sarmatians, etc were genetically like Kazakh or Turk, almost all population of Caucasus, Russia and Eastern Europe are so close to Iranians by MtDNA?

Edited by Anbalan

Originally posted by DayI "Forget about genetics. We just don't have enough data on Scythians." But they (and you) have enough "data" to call whole western Turkey as hellenic people to be "Turkifed" and the eastern as kurdish also to be "Turkifed"....

I never said that they were Hellic people "tukified" but rather native people, genetically simmilar to Greeks, hellenized in Antiquity and turkizied in a more recent period. Apart of historical data, I base that in modern peoples' genetics, which shows that there are no major significative diferences at both sides of the Aegean. But I'm not using the genetics of Solon or Osman or the peoples that lived in their time. I just don't have it.

The same happens with Scythians: apart of a singular case, that of the Ice Lady, that has given her MtDNA, we don't have any genetic data of ancient scythians (at least that I know of). The main diference is that, while Anatolia has been always a densely settled country, dwelt by deeply rooted farmers, Kazakhstan is instead a semi-desert traditionally dwelt by nomads. While it's dificult to think how Anatolia could have suffered a widespread demic modification, it's not impossible that this could have happened in Khazakstan.

I don't have data for Central-Asian MtDNA, which may shed more light, but the data of Y-chromosome DNA (male lineages) shows that Kazakhstan is surprisingly simmilar to Mongolia in this regard (see THIS MAP or THIS ONE). But the "eastern connection" almost ends there, with clearly diferent cakes for Uzbekistan, Kirgizistan and Turkmenistan. The Y-chr differences are also highlighted in THIS GRAPHIC, which shows Kazakhs very close to Mongols, the rest of Central Asian Turkmen in a separated group of many branches, except Kirguiz that are shown close to Tajiks and other IEs, and Western Turks (shown as Turkish) in a diferent branch close to Azeri, Iranian and other Near Eastern peoples (and not far from Greeks and other Europeans either).


Edited by Maju