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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muslim in Lesvos
    Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 04:48
I am 25% "Adalı" (which means Islander). One of my grandma(her ancestry) have come from Lesvos. I don't know when or where. As the Europeans says, "Turks even don't know where is his grandparents graves". This idiom have been said for showing low history knownlegde of Ottoman Turks.  

                                                                                                
I few months ago I have finished this book     "The occupation dairy of Lesvos (1912)"  
Then some questions came to my mind, now I have to ask them.

*Is there any sources about muslim population percent in Lesvos? According to Turkish sources, it was 15% in 1887 (Total Island population was 95000) and you have any sources between 1850-1920?

*In 1923, before exchange population was 7000 Turk- 33000 Greek 

*How many ottoman mosques are in records in Lesvos?


*Is there any old map which figures muslim population in Lesvos?

*and final one the Name of Turkish village or place where ottoman turks lived

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These are general questions

-Does any Turkophone still exist in Greece? Did they completely  be assimilated? like Cretean Turks

-Is there any Crypto-Turk in Greece for example maybe in Crete?

-Does Greece have any suprising news? like this 
 Turkish mountains where they still speak Ancient Greek
One of the great population movements of modern times was the "exchange of populations" that took place in 1923 between Turkey and Greece. Neil Trevithick recently visited northeastern Turkey with the descendants of the Pontic Greeks, who were forced to leave more than 90 years ago.


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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 09:07
As far as I know, Turkish-speaking populations are found mostly in villages in Western Thrace, outside the cities of  Komotini and Xanthi.
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2013 at 01:54
Originally posted by TITAN_

As far as I know, Turkish-speaking populations are found mostly in villages in Western Thrace, outside the cities of  Komotini and Xanthi.

but they are Turks, like some of in Rhodes and Kos. Their didn't affect the exchange agrement.




I am asking that Is there any greek community(maybe elder ones) who still use Turkish because many greek's mother tongue was also Turkish in Anatolia 

nearly, 10% of Greek Island Population was Turk, but why don't exist in old ethnic maps?



Just a few of them, is showing them in Greek Islands

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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2013 at 04:18
Of course they are Turks. After 4 centuries of Ottoman occupation, how could there be no Turks in Greece or in any other Balkan country? Moreover, Western Turkey (unlike Eastern Turkey) is full of Galata/Balkan Turks, whose origin/roots are situated in Greece and other Southern European countries. 


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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2013 at 04:28
Greek communities speaking Turkish? Only some muslim populations in Xanthi and Komotini regions.
I am not sure about old ethnic maps. I can't answer that.
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2013 at 02:19
Originally posted by TITAN_

Of course they are Turks. After 4 centuries of Ottoman occupation, how could there be no Turks in Greece or in any other Balkan country? Moreover, Western Turkey (unlike Eastern Turkey) is full of Galata/Balkan Turks, whose origin/roots are situated in Greece and other Southern European countries. 

*But this is not a interesting news. People who speaks ancient greek in my video, are muslim. This is interesting.

Not just the karamanlides, some greeks were using turkish as the first language. 
Are they assimilated? 

What about karamanlides community? I know elder ones know turkish but young people?

Originally posted by TITAN_

Greek communities speaking Turkish? Only some muslim populations in Xanthi and Komotini regions. I am not sure about old ethnic maps. I can't answer that.

There are two groups of Turk in Greece; West Thraceians and Dodecaneseians (not in Crete now-they were forced to move, but Dodecanese was Italian territory in 1920's so Turks in there could be saved)

File:Greece linguistic minorities.svg

As you see in the map there are Turkish speaking communities (nearly 5000) in also islands; Rhodes and Kos. They are native Turks of those islands (not immigrant)





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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2013 at 03:08
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by TITAN_

Of course they are Turks. After 4 centuries of Ottoman occupation, how could there be no Turks in Greece or in any other Balkan country? Moreover, Western Turkey (unlike Eastern Turkey) is full of Galata/Balkan Turks, whose origin/roots are situated in Greece and other Southern European countries. 

*But this is not a interesting news. People who speaks ancient greek in my video, are muslim. This is interesting.

Not just the karamanlides, some greeks were using turkish as the first language. 
Are they assimilated? 

What about karamanlides community? I know elder ones know turkish but young people?

Originally posted by TITAN_

Greek communities speaking Turkish? Only some muslim populations in Xanthi and Komotini regions. I am not sure about old ethnic maps. I can't answer that.

There are two groups of Turk in Greece; West Thraceians and Dodecaneseians (not in Crete now-they were forced to move, but Dodecanese was Italian territory in 1920's so Turks in there could be saved)

File:Greece linguistic minorities.svg

As you see in the map there are Turkish speaking communities (nearly 5000) in also islands; Rhodes and Kos. They are native Turks of those islands (not immigrant)






Those maps don't really represent the current reality. Turkish is no longer spoken by young people unless they are Western Thrace muslims. I have been to Rhodes too (but not to Kos), I didn't hear anyone speak Turkish. Moreover, even in Western Thrace, their first language is Greek. They speak Turkish only when they are together with other muslims.
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2013 at 05:06
Originally posted by TITAN_

Those maps don't really represent the current reality. Turkish is no longer spoken by young people unless they are Western Thrace muslims. I have been to Rhodes too (but not to Kos), I didn't hear anyone speak Turkish. Moreover, even in Western Thrace, their first language is Greek. They speak Turkish only when they are together with other muslims.

Yes, map is showing current situation.

Entire population
Rhodes population is 150.000, Turks are 3000
Kos       population is 33.000,   Turks are 2000, they are too little to meet one of them in streets. 

Example for Kos
Platani (Kermentes) Village Kos: The small village of Platani is located at the halfway between Kos Town and the archaeological site of Asklepieion, just 3 km from the town centre. The main characteristic of this village is that most inhabitants are Greek citizens of Turkish origin, which is why the village is also known with its Turish name, Kermentes. There is a mosque in Platani as well as an Orthodox church. You will find many traditional taverns in this village with delicious recipes from Asia Minor. Close to Platani, there is a Jewish cemetery under pine trees.

[/QUOTE]
Moreover, even in Western Thrace, their first language is Greek. They speak Turkish only when they are together with other muslims.
[/QUOTE]

That doesn't mean Greek is their first language, if they speak Turkish inside their own community. Of cource they have to learn Greek and speak it as much as a greek. In my universite, we have a West Thrace Turk student who is greek citizen. His Turkish was good.





Edited by Ollios - 11-Apr-2013 at 05:07
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2013 at 08:35
Even if those numbers are accurate, the Turks in Rhodes make up 2% of the island's population. In Kos, that would be 6% of the total population. I am sure there are more Albanians! So, what is your point?
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2013 at 01:23
Originally posted by TITAN_

So, what is your point?
What Confused. We are using "queto" system. I suggest you read me old posts again. My posts are respond to yours. This doesn't relevant with my main topic  
 

Originally posted by TITAN_

Even if those numbers are accurate...
 
Why you are acting like that? Where does this skepticism come from? This is also your old post with attitude.

Originally posted by TITAN_

Those maps don't really represent the current reality. Turkish is no longer spoken by young people unless they are Western Thrace muslims. I have been to Rhodes too (but not to Kos), I didn't hear anyone speak Turkish.

Originally posted by TITAN_

the Turks in Rhodes make up 2% of the island's population. In Kos, that would be 6% of the total population.
I didn't say that they are majority.Wink You didn't know anything about Turks in those islands and had though that Turkish was just spoken in West Thrace. I just want to be helpful and teach you something

Originally posted by TITAN_

 I am sure there are more Albanians!
I don't think so, they could be just immigrants, not greek citizens. If I am wrong, please let me know.Big smile  

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You are telling that there is no Turkish speaker Greek in Greece. That 's so sad. This means also there is no Greek who can understand this song. This is cultural lost.

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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2013 at 03:02
First of all, you have an agenda, not me! All your posts are about Turkish presence in other countries.
Smile Trying to conceal that, doesn't work.

Obviously, I knew about Turkish presence in various parts of Greece, which you overplay!  Saying that I didn't know anything about all that is plain hilarious! You can find Turks even in Athens, that doesn't mean anything. 

I never denied there are Turkish speaking Greek citizens but they are all Muslims. They come from Turkish parents. 

On the other hand, most Western Turks look like Europeans because they come from mixed Byzantine-Ottoman ancestry. Wink 

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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2013 at 05:44
Originally posted by TITAN_

Obviously, I knew about Turkish presence in various parts of Greece, which you overplay!  Saying that I didn't know anything about all that is plain hilarious! You can find Turks even in Athens, that doesn't mean anything. 

Not same, your idea is coming from "New World" because you are American. However I am living in old world, so according to my mentality, being Turk in Athens is more different than being Turk in West Thrace or Dodecanese.

Originally posted by TITAN_

I never denied there are Turkish speaking Greek citizens but they are all Muslims. They come from Turkish parents. 

I think, you just don't know. they have to be because there are Muslim Turks who protect their greek language in Turkey. I have posted something about pontic greek

now Kritikos in Mersin (Kilikia)


What about new greek immigrants from Turkey? After these things, some Greek descent Turks prefered to live in Greece
-1945-Varlık Tax
-1960-Coup
-1974-Cyprus conflict
-1980-Coup
-1998-Big Economic Crisis

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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2013 at 05:49
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by TITAN_

Obviously, I knew about Turkish presence in various parts of Greece, which you overplay!  Saying that I didn't know anything about all that is plain hilarious! You can find Turks even in Athens, that doesn't mean anything. 

Not same, your idea is coming from "New World" because you are American. However I am living in old world, so according to my mentality, being Turk in Athens is more different than being Turk in West Thrace or Dodecanese.

Originally posted by TITAN_

I never denied there are Turkish speaking Greek citizens but they are all Muslims. They come from Turkish parents. 

I think, you just don't know. they have to be because there are Muslim Turks who protect their greek language in Turkey. I have posted something about pontic greek

now Kritikos in Mersin (Kilikia)


What about new greek immigrants from Turkey? After these things, some Greek descent Turks prefered to live in Greece
-1945-Varlık Tax
-1960-Coup
-1974-Cyprus conflict
-1980-Coup
-1998-Big Economic Crisis



1) I am not an American. Where did that come from? Star
2) Greeks living in Turkey and vice versa is definitely no news to me! 
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2013 at 06:04
Originally posted by TITAN_

1) I am not an American. Where did that come from? Star
2) Greeks living in Turkey and vice versa is definitely no news to me! 

1) My mistake Embarrassed
2) not Greek, They are Cretean Turks who have protected own language
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2013 at 03:23
Cretan Turks? You mean Cretan Greeks who were converted to Islam by the Ottoman Turks.... Ok...
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2013 at 14:03
Originally posted by TITAN_

Cretan Turks? You mean Cretan Greeks who were converted to Islam by the Ottoman Turks.... Ok...

Yes, Cretan Turks which is common name, but of cource, some of them (maybe half, maybe more, maybe less) could be Greek who has prefered Islam. As the same way, Pontic Greek could be Hellenized Laz.

Question Big smile 
Which one is popular in Ottoman time, Rum or Hellen/Greek? Which one was used by Greek people in Ottoman? Is it still used in Greece to define someone like Asian Greeks?
 
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2013 at 05:41
Both Romans-Romioi-Romei (Rum as you say) and Hellenes were used. The term Greek (Grekos) was rarely used by the Greeks, even in antiquity. No, in modern times we say Hellenes only. No other ethnical name is in use, anymore. 
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2013 at 06:05
Originally posted by Ollios


Originally posted by TITAN_

Cretan Turks? You mean Cretan Greeks who were converted to Islam by the Ottoman Turks.... Ok...

Yes, Cretan Turks which is common name, but of cource, some of them (maybe half, maybe more, maybe less) could be Greek who has prefered Islam. As the same way, Pontic Greek could be Hellenized Laz.
<span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">Question Big smile </span>
Which one is popular in Ottoman time, Rum or Hellen/Greek? Which one was used by Greek people in Ottoman? Is it still used in Greece to define someone like Asian Greeks?
 

"has preferred Islam"...is a an interesting expression, when it's known that convertions to Islam, as a rule, happened with the edge of the saber or under severe cultural/economic blackmail. We are talking Islamization here /which is not such a terrible word, as it's popular to think, and just as the other similar terms, like Slavicization, shows the gradual substitution of one culture by another/.

Laz are not Turks, they are part of the native, pre-Turk populations around the Black Sea, maybe descendants of the people of Colhis. There was never, to my knowledge, any kind of forceful convertions to "Hellenism", as there were on a mass scale to Islam; so any Hellenization would be done in strictly cultural terms, not as a state promoted religious policy.

Edited by Don Quixote - 25-Apr-2013 at 07:03
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2013 at 04:54
Originally posted by TITAN_

Both Romans-Romioi-Romei (Rum as you say) and Hellenes were used. The term Greek (Grekos) was rarely used by the Greeks, even in antiquity. No, in modern times we say Hellenes only. No other ethnical name is in use, anymore. 
*so you never give up to use word Hellenes during Byzantine and Ottoman period, don't you?

*for the modern usage, Melkites? 

"notably in the distinct church services of the Melkite and Greek Orthodox communities of the Hatay Province of Southern Turkey, Syria and Lebanon. Members of theses communities still call themselves Rûm which literally means "Roman" or "Asian Greek" in TurkishPersian and Arabic (that is, those of the (Eastern) Roman Empire, what English speakers often call "Byzantine"). "

but there is no direct source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melkite
 
Originally posted by Don Quixote

 
"has preferred Islam"...is a an interesting expression, when it's known that convertions to Islam, as a rule, happened with the edge of the saber or under severe cultural/economic blackmail. We are talking Islamization here /which is not such a terrible word, as it's popular to think, and just as the other similar terms, like Slavicization, shows the gradual substitution of one culture by another/. 

Slavicization and Islamization could be like your Hellenic way. It's not be with force. Main bad things are ban and rules as there shouldn't be longer bell towers than minarets. Yes, I can use also term convertions. няма проблем Wink 

Originally posted by Don Quixote

 
Laz are not Turks, they are part of the native, pre-Turk populations around the Black Sea, maybe descendants of the people of Colhis.
Did I say something about they are Turk?
Originally posted by Don Quixote

 
There was never, to my knowledge, any kind of forceful convertions to "Hellenism", as there were on a mass scale to Islam; so any Hellenization would be done in strictly cultural terms, not as a state promoted religious policy.
-Ancient Time: The Oath of Carian Women (Sample of Hellenism in West Anatolia)
They never eat with their greek husbands who killed their ex Carian ones 

-Medieval Time: Eastern Orthodox in Byzantine
They were Eastern Orthodox which means also heretics for Byzantine authorities.




Edited by Ollios - 26-Apr-2013 at 04:55
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2013 at 13:04
The word Hellene was not abandoned in the Byzantine period, because it means the one who speaks Greek. The Greek language was NEVER abandoned, over the last 4,000 years, so....

Rum is not the actual word the Byzantines called themselves. It was Romei=Roman citizens.
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