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Okay, Why Arizona?

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Okay, Why Arizona?
    Posted: 28-Feb-2013 at 22:22
The Tucson Artifacts are an assembly of 32 lead artifacts.  They are also called the silver belle rd. artifacts.  They consist mainly of inscribed crosses.  The rub is, the inscriptions are Latin and Paleo Hebrew and have a date on them that reads 800 AD.
 
Okay, easy one, they are a hoax, right.  Ehhhh, I'm not so sure.  Not that I suscribe to Scott Wolter's ideas on all of the things he investigates, but in this case I think I have to agree with him.  The things were retrieved from a 6.5 ft. deep layer of desert caliche.  In some cases they had to use a jackhammer to get down to the artifact layer.  Most of this activity was observed by professors and professional archaeologists, some of whom actually participated in the diggs.  In S.NJ we have a similar aggregate formation.  Having worked in Landscape Const. for 40 years, I have more than a casual exp[erience with it.  It's usually a dark pink and is like cement.   
The formation process for a layer 6 ft deep is approx. 800 to 1,000 years.  There isn't anyway you could excavate this stuff, plant artifacts, then rebury them and have it look and behave as caliche.
 
This is a link to a site   http://www.mysteriousarizona.com/index.html
 
It covers this and a few other "Mysteries" of Arizona.  This isn't the only instance of anomalous artifacts found in Arizona or archaeo. sites of anomalous age. 
 
For this thread, skip all the alternative option crap.  Treat all of these as if they were iron clad proved genuine. 
The only question remaining is,     Why Arizona? 
 
 


Edited by red clay - 28-Feb-2013 at 22:26
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 10:29
Definitely mysterious...so much so that at '0 dark thirty' I rose and puttered about looking for my Poe.
 
Why?
 
You might think ill effects from tiswin consumption. Or any number of other maladies that are associated with too many nights out on a desert floor while your Injun woman is at work at the BIA Hospital. But now having established that I am indeed no old intellectual fraud.....this Az discovery reminded me of Poe's immortal 'The Gold-Bug'.
 
Nominally a story about a treasure hunt with a strange twist.  Your story put to mind this quote...
 
Upon the whole, I was sadly vexed and puzzled, but, at length, I concluded to make a virtue of necessity — to dig with a good will, and thus the sooner to convince him, by ocular demonstration, of the fallacy of the opinions he entertained.
 
 
Problem is...while no geologist; I am a student and former practioner of military geography and demolitions... which includes learning about strat formation, origination and natural destructive effects...not to mention what 5ibs of C4 will do to a rock face if your in a hurry to create a roadblock or crater.
 
 
 
And have vol'd on enough digs and restoration surveys to note; that the depth you-link describes, in which your find was located, with no other signs of undisturbed activity leads..strains perhaps...but leads..... to the conclusion that 800-1000 years somebody..... was out fracking around in the in the G Canyon vice the C. River.
 
And if the artificats prove real...they were not natives doing the fracking. Or artifacts not known to be currently associated with the culture of the time.
 
Best bet? Drink and ponder...drink and ponder.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote Explorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 11:39
"...Why Arizona? ..."
 
it does my heart good to watch history being turned on its head in my lifetime --- it is about time someone took the ideas of barry fell and many others seriously. columbus was never first --
 
this was done in front of scientists, geologists and other professionals. this has to be dealt with as the "real McCoy". there is no longer any other way.  if a person was to study time frames, then the people who did this had to have been on the continent for hundreds of years prior. they needed time to "find" Arizona. and they walked (so far no horses have been found). now scott wolter is a man who leaves no details uncovered. i would think that right now, they are looking for the "bodies". there was surely bodies from the fighting. there is even talk of "gold". your question -- why arizona --- lets start to talk about "mineral resources".  the ancients were very big on "mining"
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  Quote Explorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 11:50
as a second note -- sorry about this second post
 
the rock strata dictates the discovery. i have always felt and known from my geology buddies who are also following this that --- human history cannot dictate geology --- its geology that dictates human history
 
and my buddies are in the oil industry --- historians did not put the oil there --- geology did
 
if the geology fits and is proven (which it has) then this game of "were they here or not is over".  now we have to figure out HOW, WHY and really who were they. on one of his other shows, they had a tombstone with the name of an "angle saxon" on it --- that is the starting point. and now we have a second conformation of dates.  AD 800 --
 
i'm really waiting for the "forensic report" of the metal composition and smelting process. metal engineering can easily reverse engineer all of this ---


Edited by Explorer - 01-Mar-2013 at 11:53
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 12:01
I am waiting for demotic signs either!SmileHi no internet Explorer!You are searching over Arizona now.Good.
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  Quote Explorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 12:11
i email scott wolter a few weeks ago regarding his shows, etc. i got some great responses back. his next show deals with the kensington stone and the newport tower.
yes, i do love arizona and new mexico and the four corners area. the native american stuff is just incredible. i was not able to spend time in the tucson area -- my loss -- but i have seen the stone outside of los lunas, new mexico which was on another show of his some time back.
 
i got the impression that he is "outright done" with the current history we are taught.
 
the reading on the "metalology" of the metal should provide fastastic reading. these ancients, it appears, didn't waste anytime or energy on "wasted" projects. to make a cross and many others took alot of time and energy. they were on a "mission".
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 14:25
Originally posted by Explorer

"...Why Arizona? ..."
 
it does my heart good to watch history being turned on its head in my lifetime --- it is about time someone took the ideas of barry fell and many others seriously. columbus was never first --
 
this was done in front of scientists, geologists and other professionals. this has to be dealt with as the "real McCoy". there is no longer any other way.  if a person was to study time frames, then the people who did this had to have been on the continent for hundreds of years prior. they needed time to "find" Arizona. and they walked (so far no horses have been found). now scott wolter is a man who leaves no details uncovered. i would think that right now, they are looking for the "bodies". there was surely bodies from the fighting. there is even talk of "gold". your question -- why arizona --- lets start to talk about "mineral resources".  the ancients were very big on "mining"
 
 
What needs to be done is some serious work with GPR, use of newly available Sat. and computer tech. to survey the vic. and establish where the main settlements were.  Now is when there should be archaeologists and anthropologists involved. 
Wolter is a geologist with a solid rep. as a scientist in his field.  However he has a tendency to run ahead of the evidence on some subjects.  He finds the "Cross of Lorraine" inscribed on one of the crosses, and makes a leap to the Knights Templar??  The CoL was once a symbol of Papal authority, used in the early church, apparently Wolter wasn't aware of this.  He also wasn't aware that this was about 300 years too early for the Templars.  Worse yet, he actually jumps from there to the Holy Grail.Confused  In his enthusiasm, he damages his credibility.  But fortunately, not the credibility of the artifacts.  For once, they have the strength to stand on their own.
 
 


Edited by red clay - 01-Mar-2013 at 20:29
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 14:33
Allusion or Illusion of finder does not denies existence of artifacts."Mysticism" means always lack of proves
or ignorance.
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  Quote Explorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 15:55
the explanations of the comments -- grail,etc--- i'm sure are just lead in arguments and setting the stage for something else he has up his sleeve
 
i'm reading robert feathers books now and 3 years ago if someone had said to me anything about the connection of the copper scroll to egypt, i would have laughed my head off and thrown the person out -- not anymore --- the question then became --- what were the Essenses doing with a copper scoll that was a 1000 years old in the middle of the eastern roman empire ---
 
i will wait patiently for Scott's explanation --- i've listened to his shows over several times now and i keep picking up little comments here and there that i think are deliberately planted as tie-ins to something else down the road --- this is far from over
 
one must not forget that he wrote the book "hooked X" and proved the rune was located on the island of Gotland in known and proven templar churchs. i think the story of the UK, scottish and northern european templars is very underwritten -- and the history of the cistercines and templars didn't just pop up out of nowhere --- the rise and power was just too quick --- and the story (myth) of the qrail.....well, just like the fog of war, we have an even bigger "fog of history" ------
 
as far as the lead cross -- this is smelted metal and the lettering, runes, etc all had to be made when the metal was red hot --- and then cooled --- this is technology that is way passed the native americans and a cross to boot --- the only other civilization that would come even close to this would be the spanish and why would they put AD800 in the cross -- they were after "gold" and not "lead"
 


Edited by Explorer - 01-Mar-2013 at 16:13
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  Quote Explorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 16:15
"GPR, use of newly available Sat. and computer tech. to survey the...."
 
oh, if i would just win the lottery -- Tongue
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  Quote Explorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 16:16
Originally posted by Explorer

"GPR, use of newly available Sat. and computer tech. to survey the...."
 
 
 
oh, if i would just win the lottery -- Tongue
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 16:30
Originally posted by Explorer

as a second note -- sorry about this second post
 
the rock strata dictates the discovery. i have always felt and known from my geology buddies who are also following this that --- human history cannot dictate geology --- its geology that dictates human history
 
and my buddies are in the oil industry --- historians did not put the oil there --- geology did
 
if the geology fits and is proven (which it has) then this game of "were they here or not is over".  now we have to figure out HOW, WHY and really who were they. on one of his other shows, they had a tombstone with the name of an "angle saxon" on it --- that is the starting point. and now we have a second conformation of dates.  AD 800 --
 
i'm really waiting for the "forensic report" of the metal composition and smelting process. metal engineering can easily reverse engineer all of this ---
 
Not to mention approach route after potential landings....iow. Did they come from east to west viz the Gulf coast and or Atlantic seaboard. Or was it west to east from the G. of California; hiking N to the old Salton Sea and then NE to the then free flowing Colorado. Or was it a landing at Long beach, dead E and then N once the River was obtained? And hence discover the canyon. Or a variation of the same by simply finding the mouth of the Colorado and proceeding N. Or the N.Cali coast, crossing local ranges and hike SSE across the high desert. Otoh.... winter in the Sierra sucks then and now. Been there done that buffalo feces. Redheaded giants in Nevada? My brothers the "Si-Te-Cah"? Dunno.
 
That route and the artifacts, if origination and, provenance in general, is established...in part... tells the potential who. And would lend credibility of or to route identification possibilities.
 
 
I shall continue to ponder and drink.....ponder and drink.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 01-Mar-2013 at 16:32
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 16:32
There is queue man...Thumbs UpI have to win the lottery tree times...at least.By the way,all the best about lotterySmile
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  Quote Explorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 16:36
me -- i'm sipping at 1:30 califonia time --- Glenlivet 
 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 21:05
Originally posted by Explorer

"GPR, use of newly available Sat. and computer tech. to survey the...."
 
oh, if i would just win the lottery -- Tongue
 
 
You and me both.   I have a small GPR unit available to me on a limited basis, but I don't think I could talk them in to letting me take it out there.  A rig like that, with laptop and sftwr can run around 35,000. 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2013 at 10:43
as far as the lead cross -- this is smelted metal and the lettering, runes, etc all had to be made when the metal was red hot --- and then cooled --- this is technology that is way passed the native americans and a cross to boot --- the only other civilization that would come even close to this would be the spanish and why would they put AD800 in the cross -- they were after "gold" and not "lead"
 


Amerinds had metalurgy.  They just didn't use it as much as other cultures.
 
Smelting lead with the grade ore they had or have at the Yuma mine, wasn't hard to accomplish.
 
The lettering and runes would have been done after the lead had cooled.  Would be a hell of a lot safer and easier to do after, using a sharpened inscribing tool heated up.  Remember, these were Romans, they knew how to handle lead.  At one time in the Roman Empire, lead was nearly as valuable as gold.  The elite used it for their cooking pots.  The wealthy had their dead burried in Lead coffins.  [And their resulting offspring went around fitting all of the round holes with square pegs.]Big smile
 
There are some who connect the Romans use of Lead to cook with,to the Fall of the Empire.
Negative effects of even small amounts of Lead in food were, reduced learning abilities, damage to the parts of the brain that control urges, compulsions.  In extreme cases, and especially where the mother was also consumming containated food, they were producing "Idiots".  This was only the elite who would have been effected.  The common folk couldn't afford Lead pots, so they weren't effected as much, if at all.
{It's been suggested that both Nero and Caligula were the products of Lead contamination in their food.} 
 
  
 
 


Edited by red clay - 02-Mar-2013 at 11:01
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  Quote Explorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2013 at 11:50
agree completely --- the idea of smelting lead crosses with inscriptions was a scientific and religious wonder of european thought and not native american ---
 
watched the show again last night and tried to watch real close when they showed the lettering -- the edges were all very sharp and well made --- makes we wonder what kind of tools they had to make the letters especially the curves in the numeral "C" for 100 and the curve in the "D" for 500. also, some of the "lettering" seemed to me to be just "scraped" into the metal like an "etch-a-sketch"
 
advanced for the time period in roman empire -- no --- advanced for the america's -- yes, unless they were from europe --- this confirms beyond all doubt about the idea of "diffusion and migration". this argument is now front and center and not the idea of every civilization developing on its own.
 
and correct if wrong (of course) but the lead would have been used for tools, weapons, etc etc -- but they made crosses with it --- this tells me they had a lot of lead to spare -- 35 lb lead crosses don't help much when your fighting for your life -- swords and arrowheads do
 
which brings severalthought to mind
1) the idea of metal swords in the fighting would have been a small shock to the "enemy" --
2) there has to be way more then meets the eye -- like -- who was packing the cross -- that's 35 lbs of rather awkward shaped lead -- instead of a bar, etc. where they moving it to someplace else -- did they smelter on the spot (i doubt if they hauled the raw material even 5 miles) or was there more wood (charcoal) where the crosses were found
3) there has to be "charcoal" fire places somewhere around there -- probabilily buried very deep -- none of this is "surface" findings
 
questions questions questions ??????????? Geek (thinking cap)
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  Quote Explorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2013 at 12:17
the people who did this had to be in the "hundreds" -- i don't think this was pulled off by a group of 10 or 20 ??????
 
Centrix posted about travel routes --- think to the time and dangers of this -- WOW


Edited by Explorer - 02-Mar-2013 at 12:19
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 11:08
Lead would be too soft to use as weapons.  It will not hold an edge.
 
The large cross actually weighs 63 lbs.  The lead ore came from a mine less than 5 miles away.  Wolter was at the site.  However the mine is located within the bounds of a State Park, and with a Ranger looking over his shoulder he didn't have much time to look around.
 
If it were me looking, I'd draw a circle giving about a mile outside of the mine and encompassing the site where the items were found.  Inside that circle somewhere, is the smelting site.  But locating it will be a problem as the depth of the other artifacts show.
 
I agree that this isn't 10 or 20 folks who just happened to get blown off course in a storm.  One of the inscriptions refers to 3 thousand?   This had to be a colony.  The discovery of Roman Brickwork on one of the pyramids in Mexico is no longer mysterious.
 
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  Quote Explorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2013 at 12:49
the brick work in Mexico has to be looked at now --- as far as i'm concerned, money needs to be put into this. its time has come. i really do hope the powers to be don't do a "there's nothing here" thing. its really time the Smithsonian stepped in. Scott Wolter has exposed way to much for it to be ignored.
 
I'm really waiting for all of the published reports that i'm sure will be forecoming under "peer-review". I would think that he has lined up or is lining up people who want to be on the cutting edge of this.
 
i would like to see all the artifacts with the languages on it pulbished with pictures and the translations in a booklet form --- i think that would be incredible
 
 
edit -- i was going to add that Chris Hardaker time is here also. i would have thought that he would have been jumping up and down so hard he would hurt himself --- Smile


Edited by Explorer - 05-Mar-2013 at 12:54
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