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Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: GIs overseas
    Posted: 26-Feb-2013 at 14:36
Nor was Murmansk alone.
 
Tho I tell ya..... I'd served Ice tea in hell before talking that on.
 
 
 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2013 at 19:23
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Nor was Murmansk alone.
 
Tho I tell ya..... I'd served Ice tea in hell before talking that on.
 
 
I knew the MM officer that docked the first convoy in Yiddish.  They thought of everything, except someone who spoke Russian. Big smile  Jerome[Jerry] Kaplan was the officer on deck and heard someone on the dock swear in Yiddish, which he spoke fluently.  He docked the entire convoy in Yiddish.  And yes, it was, as he described it, "A special kind of hell".  He made several convoys after. 
 
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2013 at 03:29
Unfortunately, I am right....The USSR relied mostly on themselves for the FIRST HALF of WW2, which was the most critical part of the war, obviously!!!

"Under the Lend-Lease act large numbers of American aircraft were assigned to Russia. A total of 14,833 US aircraft of all types were sent to Russia between 1942 and 1944. 
Russian aircraft production 1942-1944 was 42,427 fighters and 11,797 bombersr (additional 30,506 ground attack planes), which results that approximately 20 per cent of the fighters and 30 per cent of the bombers of the Red Air Force were American-built and approx. 10 per cent of the fighters were British-built. "

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Production/Russia/Lend-Lease.htm


Moreover, during Operation Barbarossa, which was the MOST CRITICAL campaign of WW2, since a Soviet defeat would mean a total collapse of the Eastern Front and the end of war in Europe, the USSR had zero aid from the West.

Nope, I am not Anti-American at all. That's Red clay's nationalistic instincts coming alive... 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2013 at 08:38
Nope, I am not Anti-American at all. That's Red clay's nationalistic instincts coming alive... 
 
I was addressing the thread in general.  Trust me, if my "nationalistic instincts" had anything to do with it, you'd be googling for History forums.Wink
 
I've seen those numbers, I wanted you to find them yourself.  Good history is factual and researched well. 


Edited by red clay - 27-Feb-2013 at 08:44
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2013 at 10:23
Actually, Barbarossa was the code name for Germany's invasion of Russia.  The Allied Powers couldn't have hoped for a better scenario than that which Hitler placed Germany, a 2 front war against 2 countries with almost unlimited resources.  I said 2 countries, not excluding the UK as a major player, but industrially not as much of a powerhouse as the US and USSR.
 
BTW- of the 14,800 planes the US sent, roughly 10,000 were Bell Aircobra Fighter/Ground support planes.  And the 80,000 trucks were an actual figure not my own construct.
 
Consider also that the US was arming and equipping it's own forces as well.  Esp. in the early days of the war.  Prior to 1941 the US Army was rated 16th in the world, the Navy was rated 6th.  We had a lot of catching up to do for our own forces.  
On the Soviet side, what they did with their vital facilities, moving them to the other side of the Urals, out of Nazi Bomber range, and still be able to produce 30,000 T 34's was an absolutely staggering effort.  Stalin drew on every resource available to him for that move, including the inventor of the production line, Henry Ford, and the genius behind the Liberty ships, Henry J Kaiser.
 
Both fronts were critical.  The Nazis had pulled troops from the Western Atlantic Seawall to bolster the Eastern front.  That was the main reason for some of the D Day landings being less contested than Omaha. 
 
I have often wondered if there was an effort on the part of some in the Nazi Hierarchy to deliberately advise Hitler to ignore his time lines and proved military common sense in opening the Russian front, and inexplicably declare war on the US.
 
Materially, Germany itself wasn't ready for the war.  They started the war with less than 100 hundred U Boats, and the list goes on.  The next time you see a documentary on WWII, pay attention to the extensive reliance of the Nazis on Horses to pull Artillery and supply wagons.  They were fighting a modern war, with the technology left over from the last war.  At the same time, they were experimenting with Rockets and jets.  It never made sense to me, unless there was a core of folks who didn't want the Nazis to succeed, and pushed AH to move before they were ready.
 
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2013 at 12:20
The nice thing about revisionistic history is that the facts never get in the way of its proponents.

There is a whole lot that could be said about the nonsense being spouted on this thread, but what's the point?  The people spouting it won't change their mind, actual history will remain what it always is and the world will go on, complete with the usual roster of flamers and trolls loudly denying reality or twisting it to their own narrow visions.

My Grandfather was right when he used to say "The trouble with the world today is that people are just no damned good."  He spoke from a wealth of real world experience, as did my father, who landed in the third wave of troops on OMAHA Beach, was present for the liberation of a death camp and served on the administrative staff of the Nuremberg War Tribunals, and one of whose best friends was a fellow soldier who had survived the Bataan Death March but was turned into a alcoholic by the experience.  Kind of hard for me to even listen to those who go around denying that it all took place, or twisting it into some evil , paranoid conspiracy theory.  When I visit the Viet Nam Wall Memorial I have the same problem all over again, because according to the drivel I'm hearing none of that ever happened either, and the names of my friends and comrades-in-arms should not be on that wall - they should still be sharing beers and swapping lies with me.  So why aren't they?

It's easy to separate out those who have been and done from those who have not; the never-really-did-anthing's are the ones loudly denying that history ever happened in the first place. And I understand anti-Americanism - it's just petty jealousy and the resultant feelings of deep-seated inadequacy compounded by the loss of national pride resulting from the constant need/habit of demanding that other nations like America do the fighting and the dying for them so that they don't have to.  It's hard not to measure up when it's your turn to stand up for what you believe in.

Oh, yeah...I understand it, but I don't have to like it or acccept it as rational behavior - and I don't.  I'm offended by it because it isn't even remotely honest disagreement or discourse; it's nothing more a conscious effort to distort historical reality by those who don't even know what that reality was because they have never been a part of it and never will, and tearing it down is their meager attempt at a coping mechanism.  If they can't measure up then they can tear us down to their level.  America is far from perfect, but we can stand proudly by our ideals because we have never turned from fighting and dying to protect them, nor from coming to the aid of others when they fight and die to protect theirs.  No, we certainly aren't perfect, but we are the best friends most nations have ever had, and better than a lot of nations will ever deserve.

So far, we have been subjected to steady tirade of revisionism and anti-Americanism without a single shred of proof, and all requests for proof have been sidestepped and then buried in a frenzied flurry of verbal tap-dancing and evasion.  According to the stated standards of this forum, it is now time to either compel the proof, ban the flamers and revisionistic trolls or shut down the thread, as it no longer serves any useful purpose beyond the all-too-common denigration of America.

But I do have to wonder:  if we're so bad...if we are really, truly as bad as all of the non-Americans say we are...what in the HELL are they all doing trying to come and live in my counrty? 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2013 at 13:09
Well, being your basic modular Hard Headed American Yankee,  I always hold out hope that I can inform and at least give them something to consider.
 
Those that will criticize the US will do so regardless if this thread is closed.  The way I see it,Big smile the more factual history we post on this, the more upset the naysayers will get.Evil Smile
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2013 at 13:57
Originally posted by red clay

Well, being your basic modular Hard Headed American Yankee,  I always hold out hope that I can inform and at least give them something to consider.
 
Those that will criticize the US will do so regardless if this thread is closed.  The way I see it,Big smile the more factual history we post on this, the more upset the naysayers will get.Evil Smile
 
 
 
 
Yup there's always that. Otoh...there's also a line where the 'hope as a technique' is no longer an effective option simply because of the inability of the troublemaker to intellectually accept any thing other then garbage they spew. Hence the anti Semite Palestinian supporter, couching his phraseology to ensure no one knows he really supports terrorist groups and their efforts to murder innocent Israeli's. Or there's the 'south shall rise again shitheads' whose bigotry remains couched in their attempts to justify states rights and slavery.
 
 
In the end your right Red; your a hard headed American Yankee. But I am hard ass man of the high lonesome lonesome... the llano and the coulee...and mountains and desert dawns that take your breath away. And there isn't much difference.
 
So as a Mod I'm watching this thread. And that's not to say you aint. I also am reluctant to close it. I'd like to see something reasonably accurate and informative from it.
 
 
I detest anti-americanism, wannabe crybaby, slick, feigned intellectualists who have forgotten conviently the treasure and blood this nation has given in their defense. F*ckers make me wanna puke. But if we going play then last play as objectively to the 1st as we can and standards allow.
 
What makes this place different whether personal ideologies amongst members or staff clash.
 
But until the line is crossed, as far as I'm concerned, then the snake gets to keep his head. When it is... off goes the goddamn head. As I've noted elsewhere MM...I know when that is. So don't presume to believe I don't or it wont happen.
 
Why I got them green stars. Iow. Make and voice your complaints and or comments... you intelligent to do it without crossing the line that indicates you take it internally pm...you always have been...here and yon. We ain't bashing ya for that. Participate on this thread or dont. Dont make a little red apple to me. Because bl...whether you and I detest them.... until they cross ......they safe.
 
But until ya get them stars, don't worry about whether those that have them; ain't watching and moding when it's necessary.
 
Not in your Mos as a duty requirement. And they are.
 
 
And TITAN let me give ya some unofficial friendly advice.....watch closely how you phrase your counter responses and posts; to opinions not shared or rejection of your rhetoric. Cause if ya don't.....well you already know what will happen. Because frankly, I don't care about your fanaticism or your unwillingness to accept intellectual, objective, analysis, commentary and proofs offered.
 
 
 
Just means ya a fanatic not a historian. 
 
 
 
But you damn sure better be respectful to your fellow members and staff or your ass is gone.
 
 
Period.
 
 
 
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2013 at 08:01
What I see here is this: It is ok for the authority (mod) to be rude, impolite and insulting, but the standard member has to accept that. If that is your idea of moderating, I don't think many people will agree with that. 

Why exactly can't you respond to this simple claim=fact? During the first two critical years of  WW2 (1939-1941), who was the one who stopped Germany? 

Have you ever thought your idea that you saved the world might be exaggerated? Yes you helped us but then again the French helped you with your independence...

It's good to see the whole history not only the parts that make you feel superior or proud. 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2013 at 10:01
Why exactly can't you respond to this simple claim=fact? During the first two critical years of  WW2 (1939-1941), who was the one who stopped Germany? 
 
 
Britain.  The Brits were the first to stop the Nazis.  The Battle of Britain.  The inability to win the Air War over Britain, caused ol'Adolph to cancel OP. Sealion, the Invasion of Britain.  He was more interested in obtaining "living space" for his Reich, meaning the vast Russian steppe.
 
The US didn't officially enter the War until Dec. 1941.  But Lend Lease was in effect much earlier. 
But you are right in a way, invading Russia was Hitler's biggest mistake, and insured the Nazis would ultimately lose the war.
 
However his 2nd biggest mistake was declaring war on the US.  Giving Roosevelt the green light.  I believe the Declaration came 3 days after Pearl Harbor,  by this time, "the sleeping giant" was awake.  It gave Roosevelt everything he needed to put the country into full wartime mobilization.
 
Hitler cut his own throat!  Yes, we also were now fighting a 2 front war, but we had the resources to do this.  So did Russia, however I don't believe either the US and Britain, or the Russians, alone, could have defeated the Nazis.  Without 2 fronts,  It probably would have been a stalemate sit, Leading to a Korean War type "Truce".  Or, the Bomb would have ultimately ended the thing.
 
 
 
 


Edited by red clay - 28-Feb-2013 at 11:54
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2013 at 10:48
What I see here is this: It is ok for the authority (mod) to be rude, impolite and insulting, but the standard member has to accept that. If that is your idea of moderating, I don't think many people will agree with that. 
 
If you have a problem with any member of staff, take it to PM to me or Cyrus, not on open forum.  Read the CoC please.
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2013 at 11:45
Originally posted by red clay

Why exactly can't you respond to this simple claim=fact? During the first two critical years of  WW2 (1939-1941), who was the one who stopped Germany? 
 
 
Britain.  The Brits were the first to stop the Nazis.  The Battle of Britain.  The inability to win the Air War over Britain, caused ol'Adolph to cancel OP. Sealion, the Invasion of Britain.  He was more interested in obtaining "living space" for his Reich, meaning the vast Russian steppe.
 
The US didn't officially enter the War until Dec. 1941.  But Lend Lease was in effect much earlier. 
But you are right in a way, invading Russia was Hitler's biggest mistake, and insured the Nazis would ultimetly lose the war.
 
However his 2nd biggest mistake was declaring war on the US.  Giving Roosevelt the green light.  I believe the Declaration came 3 days after Pearl Harbor,  by this time, "the sleeping giant" was awake.  It gave Roosevelt everything he needed to put the country into full wartime mobilization.
 
Hitler cut his own throat!  Yes, we also were now fighting a 2 front war, but we had the resources to do this.  So did Russia, however I don't believe either the US and Britain, or the Russians, alone, could have defeated the Nazis.  Without 2 fronts,  It probably would have been a stalemate sit, Leading to a Korean War type "Truce".  Or, the Bomb would have ultimately ended the thing.
 
 
 
 

The battle of Britain was an air battle. The only reason Britain did not fall, was the English channel. That kept the Nazis out, not the air battle! After all, Hitler could not divert all his air force against Britain because he had other fronts too. But even if he had defeated the RAF, his troops could never make it to Britain. The Brits could have mustered at least a million soldiers on the south coasts of England. How could Hitler transfer his army to England? At best he could have been transfering only a few thousand troops per day.... which would have been outnumbered and butchered by huge British armies while British artillery would strike against any German air support. 

Hitler had a hard time conquering Crete which was defended by a small army, and he still lost 5,000 parachuters... How could he possibly conquer Great Britain? Ouch

What the Brits accomplished was merely a considerable damage to the German air force. Britain is an island after all, I was talking about continental Europe. The only army that defeated the Nazis by 1941 was the Red Army.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2013 at 12:13
LOLLOLBig smile
 
 
There is a whole lot that could be said about the nonsense being spouted on this thread, but what's the point?  The people spouting it won't change their mind, actual history will remain what it always is and the world will go on, complete with the usual roster of flamers and trolls loudly denying reality or twisting it to their own narrow visions.

I have in this thread and others, been accused of being unable to admit I'm wrong,  Not true.  MM I admit you were right.Big smile
 
 
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote longbaby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2013 at 22:24
Red Clay, Britain didn't stop the Nazis. They simply DELAYed the Nazis. What happen in the Stalingerad reversed the WW2 history.

And sorry, I do believe the Russians could have defeated the Nazis ALONE, considering the circumtances in 1943. Maybe it would take a few more years.

Edited by longbaby - 01-Mar-2013 at 00:52
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2013 at 04:24
Originally posted by longbaby

Red Clay, Britain didn't stop the Nazis. They simply DELAYed the Nazis. What happen in the Stalingerad reversed the WW2 history.

And sorry, I do believe the Russians could have defeated the Nazis ALONE, considering the circumtances in 1943. Maybe it would take a few more years.

Clap

At last, I am not alone here....

Moreover, way before the U.S. got involved, this is what crushed the Nazis....
With worse weapons and worse training, the Red Army had only one advantage: They outnumbered the Germans. Stalin could muster huge armies that were sacrificed just to delay the German advance, until the harsh Russian winter could finish them off, with the aid of Siberian troops that were trained to fight in severe cold weather. Clap  

Numbers don't lie. The Russians lost more soldiers than any other nation that was involved in WW2. 


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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2013 at 15:46
The dance "hokey cokey" introduced to the UK by American GIs might sound innocent enough, but it was actually a parody of Catholic mass: hoc est enim corpus meum
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3883838/Doing-the-Hokey-Cokey-could-be-hate-crime.html
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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