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NikeBG 
Colonel 
Joined: 04-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 529 |
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 Topic: Slavic nationsPosted: 20-Jun-2006 at 09:12 |
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That's an interesting question that you bring up. Because before the Slavic "colonisation" of the Balkans (i.e. during the Slavic raids) both the Southern Slavini and the Eastern Antes raided the peninsula for some time. But, IIRC, Byzantium caused an internal conflict between them (as it had done with the (possibly) Bulgar Kutrigur and Utigur tribes), which basically eliminated the Antes from the game. But, then again, the so called "Old Great Bulgaria" (as it was called by the Byzantines) on the northern side of the Black Sea has most probably bordered with Antes and not Slavinii. Although there are no reports of the Bulgars, bringing to Moesia some Eastern Slavs together with them. About Cyrillic - it's being thought that Cyrillic developed from the Glagolitic and that's probably right. But it was "improved" so much, that today there is basically almost no similarity. I believe there's a thread in the Linguistics section about the Glagolitic and you could see how strange it looks, compared to Cyrillic. And Cyrillic itself was developed in Bulgaria in the second half of the 9th century, but the question is "By who and where?" Most believe that it was by the Bulgarian cleric, disciple of the saints brothers, Saint Clement of Ohrid. But there's also the thesis that it was made by another of the disciples - St. Naum of Preslav. In both cases, it's done in Bulgaria by Bulgarians.  And Slavs have (ethnically) nothing to do with Illyrians and Sarmatians. Some Slavs only settled on ex-Illyrian lands, therefore some of those Slavs claim Illyrian heritage. The other "link" is that some modern Slavs (Bulgarians, Serbs and others) could've mixed in the early middle ages with Sarmatian tribes (of Bulgars, Serbs and others). Edit: And on the question to Diplomat - I think he meant Slavs are dominant in Europe by numbers and territory - nearly whole of Eastern Europe with parts of Central one. Politically and economically - definitely not. Edited by NikeBG - 20-Jun-2006 at 09:17 |
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Mosquito
Caliph 
Suspended Joined: 05-Aug-2004 Location: Sarmatia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2537 |
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Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 13:59 |
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Actually Poles may be related with Sarmatians. For example british historian Norman Davies suggest it. There are some evidences and some customs that might lead to Sarmatians. Especially many coats of arms of polish nobles sarmatian. Edited by Mosquito - 20-Jun-2006 at 14:00 |
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Scytho-Sarmatian
Earl 
Joined: 09-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 290 |
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Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 06:12 |
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There is even evidence in Slavic languages of Sarmatian influence. In Polish, for example, is the title "Pan" which would be the equivalent of "Mr." in English. I read somewhere that it is derived from the Sarmatian word "Ban."
Edited by Scytho-Sarmatian - 21-Jun-2006 at 06:13 |
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arras
Immortal Guard 
Joined: 14-Jun-2006 Location: Slovakia Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 11:10 |
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Thanks all for repply.
Mosquito>> regarding those coats of arms of polish nobles I was reading that it was not more than just that polish nobles declared themself to be of Satmatian origin only to separate themself from common folk they ruled and that whole idea is largelry romantic. The same tendencies can be seen with nobles around whole Europe declaring to be of some diferent, better (ofthen warlike) origin than others, giving them kind of right to rule them. I can give you my source if you are interesting. Scitho-Sarmatian>> Pan mean Mr. in all slavic languages not only polish. |
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arras
Immortal Guard
Joined: 14-Jun-2006 Location: Slovakia Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 11:24 |
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NikeBG>> yes you are right about diferencies. Her is an example
of the Glagolitic script created by Saint Cyril (from wikipedia):
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Socrates
Baron 
Joined: 12-Nov-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 416 |
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Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 13:19 |
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Slavs asimilated quite a bit of Illyrians (and Thracians).If not-what happened to them-did they just dissapear? As for Sarmatians, I'd say all Slavs have got at least a bit of their genes. Scytho-sarmatian contacts with Slavs have lasted for many centuries...
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"It's better to be a billionair for a lifetime then to live in poverty for a week"
Bob Rock |
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Desperado
Shogun 
Joined: 27-Apr-2006 Location: Cocos (Keeling) Islands Online Status: Offline Posts: 227 |
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Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 17:07 |
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I've heard about the slavic tribe SEVERI that came across the Danube with Bulgars as alies. One of the reasons for the successfull integration of various slavic tribes in the Danubian Bulgarian state could be that some of them were already integrated in the Great Bulgaria on the north coast of Black Sea. |
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Mosquito
Caliph
Suspended Joined: 05-Aug-2004 Location: Sarmatia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2537 |
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Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 18:22 |
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Except for the fact that the oldest coats of arms come from times before Polish nobles invented theories about their samratian origin and that those oldest coat of arms looks like sarmatian tamgs or are similar to them. With time those coats were changing its shape but similarities are obvious. I guess you understand that Polish nobles were not archeologists and didnt know how sarmatians tamgs were looking like.
Second thing is the very special system of polish heraldry. Unlike in the western Europe in Poland one coat of arms was shared by hundrieds of famillies who under one sing were going into battle - and that sign, coat of arms was sarmatian in its origin. Some historians claim that Poles are related with Sarmatian tribe of Alans who dissapeared in the forests of eastern Europe in the end of 4th century and begining of 5th.
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Raider
General 
Joined: 06-Jun-2005 Location: Hungary Online Status: Offline Posts: 804 |
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Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 03:05 |
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Mosquito
Caliph
Suspended Joined: 05-Aug-2004 Location: Sarmatia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2537 |
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Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 17:29 |
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There are many theories about the origin of Slavs as well as theories about origin of Poles.
The theory about sarmatian origin of Poles has both arguments for and against it.
Strong points of theory of sarmatian origins of Poles:
+ this theory explains the mysterious symbols (tamgs) of Sarmatians in the Polish coats of arms and names of this coats of arms like for example "Chamiec", "Roch", "Mora", "Doliwa", "Jaksa")
+this theory explains the 2-partial names of Slavs and Poles which were present in all Indoeuropean tribes except for Romans but only in slavic languages (especially in Polish) are so strict in its form. Some of those names sound even like being directly translated from Iranian. This was also very typical for Sarmatians.
+ this theory explains the expansion of Slavs in early medieval times, somthing unusual for the people who were settled farmers, it could have been inspired by the nobles of sarmatian origin for whom wandering was more typical than for settled farmers, what would last until the soughtern Slavs were conqured by Awars,
+this theory explains the names of cities and villages in Poland which come from the Iranian language
Now - what is TAMGA. In the culture of steppe people it were the symbols, signs which were weared on the shields and on other items. It was a simplified image of the animal or weapon or somthing like sun, thunder, bird but very simple in its form (look on the picture in my earlier post). In Sarmatian culture one Tamga was shared by big number of famillies or even by the whole tribe. Polish coats of arms dont look similar to the Tamga's of Scandinavians or Hungarians but they look excatly like sarmatian tamgas. In many cases the symbol on the shield of Polish knight was nothing more but exactly a sarmatian Tamga. This is somthing that cannot be find on the coats of arms in any other european country. And notice also the fact that only the earliest polish coats of arms are sarmatian in shape.
The problem is that there is no other theory explaining why polish coats of arms looks like many hundrieds years earlier sarmatian Tamga's and are very different (in fact unique) in Europe.
Afcourse in time Polish coats of arms were changing its shape, after reneissance so much that looked even different. The 11th century polish knight had on his coat sarmatian Tamga but his descendant 500 years later had it symbol which was only more less lokking like that Tamga.
Compare this Tamga and 16th century polish coat of arms:
  And here are other Polish coat of arms of Sarmatian origin, some of them even unchanged, are nothing more but a Sarmatian Tamga on the shields of Polish nobles.
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Mosquito
Caliph
Suspended Joined: 05-Aug-2004 Location: Sarmatia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2537 |
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Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 17:46 |
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And here part of the article from WIKIPEDIA:
Although the Polish heraldic system evolved under the influence of French and German heraldry, there are many notable differences. The most striking peculiarity of the system is that a coat of arms does not belong to a single family. A number of unrelated families (sometimes hundreds of them), usually with a number of different family names, may use a coat of arms, and each coat of arms has its own name. The total number of coats of arms in this system was relatively low ca. 200 in the late Middle Ages.
One of the most visually striking characteristics of Polish heraldry is the abundance of gules fields. Among the oldest coats of arms in Poland, nearly half use a red background, with blue (azure) coming in a distant second. Nowhere else in Europe, shows such a strong bias towards a particular color scheme. Other typical features used in Polish heraldry include horseshoes, arrows, Maltese crosses, scythes, stars and crescents. There are also many purely geometrical shapes for which a separate set of heraldic terms was invented. It has been suggested that originally all Polish coats of arms were based on such abstract geometrical shapes, but most were gradually "rationalized" into horseshoes, arrows and so on. If this hypothesis is correct, it suggests in turn that Polish heraldry, again unlike western European heraldry, may be at least partly derived from a kind of rune-like symbols: the Tamgas used by nomadic peoples of the Steppe, such as the Sarmatians or the Avars, to mark property. However, the evidence about the origins of the system is scanty, and this hypothesis has been criticized as being part of the Polish noble tradition of romanticizing their supposed Sarmatian ancestry. On this matter, research and controversy continue. |
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Socrates
Baron
Joined: 12-Nov-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 416 |
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Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 18:00 |
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I've got no doubts that Poles were influenced heavily by Sarmatians, but Poles speak a slavic language-not iranic + polish culture is undoubtedly slavic, which is to show us that the original Sarmatians were quickly absorbed by the Slavs - like in other parts of slavic world. As somebody already said, the only people that can claim that they're descendants of the Sarmatians are Ossetians.
Btw, are those symbols genuine? I mean-maybe someone ''slightly'' changed them to resemble Sarmatian ones (since I've encountered similar attempts by our Serbian and other "historians''
 -although it's got nothing to do with Sarmatians...). Some links would be useful... |
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"It's better to be a billionair for a lifetime then to live in poverty for a week"
Bob Rock |
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Mosquito
Caliph
Suspended Joined: 05-Aug-2004 Location: Sarmatia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2537 |
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Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 18:03 |
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These coats of arms are older than theory of sarmatian origin of Poles :)
Lets say it: Polish warior and later knight didnt know about earlier Sarmatians and never heard about them. He also had no idea that the Tamga he is using is sarmatian in its origin.
Affcourse these symbols were changing in time just like i said earlier. But they were changing not to look more like sarmatian Tamga but in opposite way, to look less like Tamga but more like somthing real (they were being rationalised), to look like a cross, horse head, star or crescent or tree.
This symbol:
was changing in this way:
Not in opposite site. Edited by Mosquito - 22-Jun-2006 at 18:43 |
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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arras
Immortal Guard
Joined: 14-Jun-2006 Location: Slovakia Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 13:11 |
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Mosquito >> well thnks for all that info. It might be true. I was also reding somewhere that Slavs might absorb some big nomadic cultures like Allans, Sarmatians and even Scithians.
One thing which should not be forgoten is that all Indo-European nations share the same origin in Asia Minor. Their ancestors once or even several times on their journey to places where they settled finaly came across or were living nex to each other. This include Aryana of India and Iranians too. |
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Great Khan
Immortal Guard
Joined: 26-Aug-2006 Location: Bulgaria Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 14:54 |
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Curently we have countries that claim to be slavs(and they are i think):russians,belarussians,poles,serbs,croats,bosniaks,bulgarians,macedonians,slovenians,slovakians and others.There is no PURE NATION.But generaly we can say that the main part of a nation is a slav and that woud be so.We have comon traditions,language(related not same) so we are slavs.That is what makes us slavs.If more of the russians are blond that is because of the climate.So is with the Bulgarians more of us are with black hair(me to)thats also from the climate.As for the sarmatians they were destroyed by the huns.And i forgot why people from turkey thing that turk is their countrisman.In bulgarian we say to the turk turci and to the turckik tribes like bulgars sarmats magyars we say tiurki.There is a difference.
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Jeru
Knight 
Joined: 26-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 57 |
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 16:01 |
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I see a lot of people claiming to be Macedonians,to those who do please tell me what this says:
"Aλεξανδρος δε επειδη απεδεξε ως ειη Αργειος, εκριθη τε ειναι Ελλην και αγωνιζομενος σταδιον συνεξεπιπτε τω πρωτω".
I've seen writings of Aristoteles(Macedonian) and they don't look like this at all:
"Оче наш кој си на небото, Excavations in Pella only show greek writings.
By the way i always thought that it was the greek byzantine monks Saints Cyril and Methedius who developed the first writing system for the Slavonic languages,and that your "macedonian" writing and language is one of them.
Sorry for the off topic but i can't ignore propaganda. Edited by Jeru - 06-Sep-2006 at 16:03 |
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akritas
Chieftain 
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 16:12 |
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Jeru the Great Khan as Bulgarian propably mean the Slavovic origing inhibants of the Macedonian region. I realize there is a confusion as about this issue but the thread focus for Slavic nations including and the Slavmacedonians. Actually the ministry of the Culture of the FYROM is clear (or want to seem as clear) as about the origin of the Slavonic citizens
Scenes from the Bible are also inbuilt into the mosaics. Georgieva adds that Heraklea remains the challenge to many generations of archeologists and the excavations of archaeological material from the period of Hellenic Macedonians will be of particular importance. Because Macedonian Slavs who settled in these areas where our Macedonian roots originate, necessarily mixed the autochtonous ancient Macedonians.
http://www.culture.in.mk/story.asp?id=3608 |
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Jeru
Knight
Joined: 26-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 57 |
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 16:29 |
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I'm sorry if i didn't understand, it's just that i made a small research and even went to Pella to see the findings and there is nothing logical to support such propaganda. I wasn't referring to Great Khan,i just read all the posts in this thread.
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