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Allied war crimes during World War II

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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Allied war crimes during World War II
    Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 11:57
Originally posted by Menumorut

[/QUOTE]



Like Germans, Romanians etc, but not on the same scale, the Allies commited war crimes, this is the idea of this thread. The sooner people from former Allied nations renounce the idea of an immaculate Allied behaviour in WW2, the better.  [/QUOTE]

The better for whom?  Sounds like a threat.  No one denies that there were crimes; however, they were on a small scale and not officially condoned as they were by other nations, nor were they national military policy.

It's sounds like you have a need to tar everyone with the same brush in order to feel better about your own history.
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 12:21
Better for them, is not a threat. Illusions always come against you.






I feel sorry for few parts of Romanian history, especially the Jewish-Roma genocide and the alliance with Hitler.







I don't yet feel sorry for the Romanian armies attacking Russia beyond the Romanian borders, as Russians up to this day didn't apologize for their injustices and crimes against Romanians: the theft of Bessarabia and Bukovina, the murder and deportations of millions of Bessarabian and Bukovinian Romanians. I wished to see at least a simple Russian expressing regret for these decisions of their leaders, but it seems their people support their historical actions and present attitude.




Also, a digress: Russia still keeps the Romanian Treasure, which was sent to Moscow in 1916 and never seen since then.


Edited by Menumorut - 09-Feb-2013 at 12:25

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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 12:40
Originally posted by Mountain Man

It's sounds like you have a need to tar everyone with the same brush in order to feel better about your own history.


Is that really fair? A personal attack?

I know that it is distasteful for you to read about "unpleasant" incidents in your nations history.
Americans really do dislike this, they have such a high level of cognitive dissonance.

The need to justify actions by the usual" you were worse than us" or "you did it first" does not address the issues in question.

Do you deny that these incidents took place?

Azita


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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 13:21
Azita, I don't think Mountainman meant it as a personal attack. If you wish to make a complaint, please respect the rules and send a private message to the admins:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6512&PID=681123#681123


Edited by Nick1986 - 09-Feb-2013 at 13:21
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 13:27
I certainly don't see Mountain Man's comment as a personal attack. But his point is well taken. Is this a thread about Allied War Crimes, or is it really a thread that means to say: See, you were no better than the Nazis or the Soviets. All the arguments so far smack of: "No matter what you say, your were as bad or worse then they were."

We beg to differ. 
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 14:39
What's this nonsense? Who said Allies were as worse as axis countries? Ofcourse are not, the difference is immense.

But these small crimes of Western powers and the huge crimes of the Soviet army are little if not at all aknowledged outside the circle of history scholars.


Popular culture is a good indicator for this. In movies taking place during WW2 for example, Allies rarely are bad or unjust. They always are presented positively, heroically. this is sort of a myth.



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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 15:53
Menumorut:

In re your:  "  But these small crimes of Western powers and the huge crimes of the Soviet army are little if not at all aknowledged outside the circle of history scholars."

Yes, and who else but those interested n history nearly 70 years after the war ended would be interested?  How can we expect this to be the subject of dailyconversation?

Also, in re this:  "Popular culture is a good indicator for this. In movies taking place during WW2 for example, Allies rarely are bad or unjust. They always are presented positively, heroically. this is sort of a myth."

Did you see "Saving Private Ryan?" If you had, you'd have seen what amounted to atrocities. The killing of surrendered German prisoners. So, not "always".  Now yes, they are (almost) always presented positively and heroically. Of course! And given the sacrifices they made to win that war, why does that not surprise? Yet Kurt Vonnegut's "Catch 22" was outside the paradigm, and it was still a best seller and a popular movie. But that too is ancient history now, and just a blip on the popular cultural radar.


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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 16:23
Originally posted by lirelou

.  Is this a thread about Allied War Crimes, or is it really a thread that means to say: See, you were no better than the Nazis or the Soviets.

So the volume of these crimes the deciding factor with you.

BTW the soviets WERE UK/USA allies.

So were the "allies" as bad as the Nazis, yes they were. (However much of Stalin's evil was committed before he became a US/UK Allie)

were the US/UK forces as bad as the Nazis, No they were not.
BUT only down to the volume of the offences 

So i will change my statement:-

The Western allies did not Rape/murder/loot in the same volume as their Soviet allies or the Nazis.




Edited by Azita - 09-Feb-2013 at 16:24
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 18:45
Originally posted by Azita

Originally posted by Mountain Man

It's sounds like you have a need to tar everyone with the same brush in order to feel better about your own history.


Is that really fair? A personal attack?

I know that it is distasteful for you to read about "unpleasant" incidents in your nations history.
Americans really do dislike this, they have such a high level of cognitive dissonance.

The need to justify actions by the usual" you were worse than us" or "you did it first" does not address the issues in question.

Do you deny that these incidents took place?

Azita




You "know" what, exactly?  You have no idea how I think or feel about things, particularly since I grew up in post-war Germany and Austria.  I saw my first death camp at age five.  How about you?

And what is this constant accusation that Americans are guilty of "cognitive dissonance"?  It's a catchy little buzz-phrase, but meaningless in this context unless you are actually prepared to prove that 300 million Americans suffer from a specific form of cognitive dysfunction.   THIS is the actual meaning of "cognitive dissonance:

The term cognitive dissonance is used to describe the feeling of discomfort that results from holding two conflicting beliefs. When there is a discrepancy between beliefs and behaviors, something must change in order to eliminate or reduce the dissonance.

As you can see from the actual definition, I'm not suffering from "cognitive dissonance" at all, since my beliefs are matched by historical reality, and there is no "behavior" issue involved whatsoever. 

What is clear here that some people have a deep need to make everyone guilty of the same level of barbarity as the Germans and the Soviets, and unfortunately for that need, history says it didn't happen that way.  As an American, I am aware that we have treated our Indians, our Japanese-American citizens, our blacks and our Chinese laborers far worse than we ever treated anyone else, but we did not build death camps
, nor did we starve and brutalize POW's to death, nor did we practice rape as a weapon against civilian populations. We did, however, punish our own soldiers when we found them doing those things, and that will forever remain the critical difference between us and other nations.

Did incidents take place involving American troops?  Yes.  Were the levels of incidents or atrocities even remotely on a par with those committed by the Germans, the Japanese and the Soviets?  No.  That's historical reality, and this forum is all about actual history.


Edited by Mountain Man - 09-Feb-2013 at 18:55
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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 21:18
and in such nice bold type, you even used italics as well..............
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 21:25
Azita, to your last, you need to add the bolded text:

"The Western allies did not Rape/murder/loot in the same volume as their Soviet allies or the Nazis", standards of conduct were promulgated for all their troops, those standards were included in training of U.S. personnel, and good faith efforts were made to punish violations in a timely manner within the means of the commands to do so.

Remember, the allies included Nationalist China, Belgium, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, France, the United Kingdom and Commonwealth Nations, Mexico (provided one Fighter Squadron), the Commonwealth of the Philippines,and of course, the United States.
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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 23:07
Originally posted by lirelou

Azita, to your last, you need to add the bolded text:

Why do i    need   to?
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 00:35
Originally posted by Azita

and in such nice bold type, you even used italics as well..............


I do that to make it easier for readers to differentiate the quote from the response.  Glad you like it.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 01:03
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by Menumorut

Originally posted by Nick1986

The bombing of the Nazis and Japanese wasn't cruelty: it was vital to bring about a swift end to the war. How many more of our soldiers and civilians would have died in a prolonged war if we hadn't damaged Germany's infrastructure?



Like Germans, Romanians etc, but not on the same scale, the Allies committed war crimes, this is the idea of this thread. The sooner people from former Allied nations renounce the idea of an immaculate Allied behaviour in WW2, the better.







You can blow up a German factory and it will be up and running again in a few weeks, but if you kill their workers it will take 20 years to replace them. The atom bomb changed the Japanese for the better: from militarist aggressors to peace-loving people.


This sounds sinister, to not say else.








If you want to feel sorry for someone, think of all the Jewish and Slavic women and children murdered in the Holocaust


By both axis and Allied, remember. And if you want to be human, you should think in the same way for German, Romanian etc victims, that are no more guilty than British or other.





Harsh, but true. Bomber Harris knew this: to cripple a stronger enemy, you must ruin morale on the home front. It wasn't a war crime, but vital for hastening an end to the conflict as Germany was the aggressor and had already bombed innocent civilians in London, Liverpool, Birmingham, Hull, and Coventry. Ideally, the US should have handed over its atom bombs to the UN when the Nazis and Japs were defeated to prevent the Cold War (or another world war) from ever happening again
 
LOLLOLLOL/LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
 
 
also sprach Chamberlain.
 
It remains intensely amusing to me, yet to this date; that the liberal leftist American or socialist European appeasement approach remains not only in vogue but still key to their very thinking processes. As it regards national security and or ongoing mil ops past and present.
 
Nick...tsk tsk....had that grievous error been prepared; ALL of Western Europe would still be Sov satellites.
 
And you would be speaking Russian....by 47....praising Stalin-Lenin-et al. Because if you actually believe the Soviets would have stopped their research and subsequent production of nuc weapons...your down the rabbit hole with Alice. And we aint talking my girlfriend your pup.
 
Not only would they not have done it. They would have been in position to blackmail every nation on the planet to cooperate with their agenda. and The atrocities being discussed and subsequent would have been worse then they were.
 
 
As for whether the level of atrocity 'A' rises to the level of atrocity 'B' commited by whomever; remains subject. Not only is it impractical but, imo, to a degree, unrealistic to do other then at best, objectively compare and contrast. Given the differences in developing culture and sociological context. And the adoption of laws that did not even exist in human culture until 5000 years after the first were probably committed by 'x' nation state-clan-group vs. 'y'.
 
 
All of them were done. Whether you view it as a  negative necessity or collateral damage and consequence of war is an individual prerogative. All of them were evil. But that's hindsight and hidesight and a comparative analysis, based on qualifiers the other side might not give a shit about, to decide which is worse. Still remains subjective as much as objective.
 
 
And for all those that didn't understand that?
 
 
Return to class... and learn the historical method before you let nationalistic defensive passions, because your side lost, f**k up your objectivity.
 
Because at that point your not a historian. Merely a fanatic attempting justification of an agenda.
 
And for that....see this.
 
 
 
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 10:02

So lets expand this discussion to the Rhine meadow (Rheinberg) camps and German DEF:-

 Just some points, with no moral discussion yet.

 First i want to make this clear we have James Bacque book, which is discredited..

 But Stephen Ambrose says on the subject “terrible things happened at the end of the war.”

 Niall Ferguson - “the mortality rate for German POW's in U.S. hands was more than 4 times higher than the rate for those who surrendered to the British",

 'We had so much food we didn’t know what to do with it.' – Colonel Henry Settle, 106th division

 “The silence about this atrocity has pained me for forty-five years”- Martin Brech, formet US soldier.

 US Senator Kenneth S. Wherry  complained about “the thousands upon thousands of tons of rations spoiling amid a starving population”.

 In 1969,  General Leonard D. Heaton prepared and published a report for the United States Army Medical Department. – “The lack of food led in some cases to extensive malnutrition”

 The prisoners lived through the winter in tents and slept on the bare ground under one blanket each. They say they are underfed and beaten and kicked by guards. Many have no underclothes or boots." ; Chicago Tribune Press Service  19 /5/46

 Another Red Cross report stated:-

 “The 472,526 remaining slaves had already been described by correspondents as; "a beggar army of pale, thin men clad in vermin infested tatters." All were pronounced unfit for work, three quarters of them due to deliberate starvation.

( I must confess to some shock at the word “slave”)

 US General Lucius Clay, "I feel that the Germans should suffer from hunger and from cold as I believe such suffering is necessary to make them realize the consequences of a war which they caused . . . [but] this type of suffering should not extend to the point where it results in mass starvation and sicknes”

 Eisenhower said in 1944 "God, I hate Germans! Why? Because the German is a beast!"


This was interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atMufGPkO-8

 

 

 

 

 

 



Edited by Azita - 10-Feb-2013 at 10:34
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 15:06
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis


and learn the historical method before you let nationalistic defensive passions, because your side lost, f**k up your objectivity.
 
Because at that point your not a historian. Merely a fanatic attempting justification of an agenda.
 
And for that....see this.
 
 
 



To be honest,I don't know what historical method is, I'm a specialist in history, just an amateur. I tried to present some facts as objectively as possible.


In the moral aspect of the problem, I think all human beings should be treated with equal respect and helped even if they hurted us. Is a principle derived from the Christian morals of nonviolence and love (I don't consider myself Christian and don't believe in the historicity of most of Bible, but I consider the core Christian principles as divine laws).

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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 16:15
" “The 472,526 remaining slaves had already been described by correspondents as; "a beggar army of pale, thin men clad in vermin infested tatters." All were pronounced unfit for work, three quarters of them due to deliberate starvation."


Well, Azita, this is interesting. It wasn't hard to track down your source: Michael Walsh, the author of these two gems:

The Triumph of Reason: A thinking man's guide to Adolph Hitler 

“Here then is a rare opportunity to examine the authentic first-hand expressions uttered by the German Leader who won the hearts and minds of hundreds of millions of Europeans. These extracts have so far been undemocratically denied by the so-called 'champions of free speech.' You may agree or disagree with the Fuhrer's account of unfolding events, his hopes and his fears. But the liberating experience will elevate your freedom of thought and make you less of a manipulated puppet. You will stand taller and be a better human being as a consequence. -- Michael Walsh”

The Battle for Europe

"...The most fascinating aspect of this compilation is the revelation that much of the victor's account of events is bunkum. The Battle for Europe unravels the victors' propaganda casts a new perspective on the great European tragedy of 1939 -1945. Contained in this work are insights and revelations you will not find anywhere else, dealing with the true origins of the conflict, Allied atrocities and cover-ups."

Don't bother to reply. That says all I need to know about where you're coming from.




Edited by lirelou - 10-Feb-2013 at 16:19
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 16:51
Originally posted by Azita

So lets expand this discussion to the Rhine meadow (Rheinberg) camps and German DEF:-

 Just some points, with no moral discussion yet.

 First i want to make this clear we have James Bacque book, which is discredited..

 But Stephen Ambrose says on the subject “terrible things happened at the end of the war.”

 Niall Ferguson - “the mortality rate for German POW's in U.S. hands was more than 4 times higher than the rate for those who surrendered to the British",

 'We had so much food we didn’t know what to do with it.' – Colonel Henry Settle, 106th division

 “The silence about this atrocity has pained me for forty-five years”- Martin Brech, formet US soldier.

 US Senator Kenneth S. Wherry  complained about “the thousands upon thousands of tons of rations spoiling amid a starving population”.

 In 1969,  General Leonard D. Heaton prepared and published a report for the United States Army Medical Department. – “The lack of food led in some cases to extensive malnutrition”

 The prisoners lived through the winter in tents and slept on the bare ground under one blanket each. They say they are underfed and beaten and kicked by guards. Many have no underclothes or boots." ; Chicago Tribune Press Service  19 /5/46

 Another Red Cross report stated:-

 “The 472,526 remaining slaves had already been described by correspondents as; "a beggar army of pale, thin men clad in vermin infested tatters." All were pronounced unfit for work, three quarters of them due to deliberate starvation.

( I must confess to some shock at the word “slave”)

 US General Lucius Clay, "I feel that the Germans should suffer from hunger and from cold as I believe such suffering is necessary to make them realize the consequences of a war which they caused . . . [but] this type of suffering should not extend to the point where it results in mass starvation and sicknes”

 Eisenhower said in 1944 "God, I hate Germans! Why? Because the German is a beast!"


This was interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atMufGPkO-8


After  OMAHA Beach, my father returned to England as the commanding officer of a prison camp for wounded German POW's.  They were treated far better than Allied POW's and received the same rations as the civilian populace.


Your obvious intent is to smear the Allies for your own personal reasons without regard to actual history.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 17:50
Originally posted by Menumorut

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis


and learn the historical method before you let nationalistic defensive passions, because your side lost, f**k up your objectivity.
 
Because at that point your not a historian. Merely a fanatic attempting justification of an agenda.
 
And for that....see this.
 
 
 



To be honest,I don't know what historical method is, I'm a specialist in history, just an amateur. I tried to present some facts as objectively as possible.


In the moral aspect of the problem, I think all human beings should be treated with equal respect and helped even if they hurt us. Is a principle derived from the Christian morals of nonviolence and love (I don't consider myself Christian and don't believe in the historicity of most of Bible, but I consider the core Christian principles as divine laws).
 
 
 
Yes I know that. Ntl.....it will serve you well even an as an amateur. To not only learn what it is but to practice it's principals. Why? It will lend credibility to your theorems and presentation-debate in their defense. Perhaps I spoke quickly and it would appear that it was directed to you personally. It was not. My apologies if you thought it was.
 
And I do believe you are attempting objectivity....and you have demonstrated it. However yours is a topic that is easily twisted and manipulated by others; for entirely different reasons and agendas hidden under the guise of participation. Consequently my advice; is to thoroughly ensure your intent, reference the discussion, is obvious. As for the moral conundrum?  That's an entirely different conversation not to mention the legal one involved. Reference atrocities of war as defined in law that isn't even yet remotely historically as old as the issue being examined.
 
Iow. remember your contextual era. Examine the question as it relates to the existing law and social and cultural experience in the time era in which the event/s occurred. And then, by comparing and contrasting it; to like events in the same era....you just might be able to objectively determine if the events were not only morally repugnant at the time. But, whether appropriate determinations and actions were made-taken to prohibit it's  continued occurrences. or at the very least to curtail their occurence.
 
But beware the pit trap of attempting to moralize an action of a military operation versus that of one in direct violation of well recognized international and national, civil and military law, without a thorough examination of the same.
 
If you do this (and this is where the historical method proves it's value) you will find it's not only easier to identify an atrocity but easier to prove it as well.
 
So far an interesting thread. My business obligations keep me busy at this time of year. Hence my limited particpation tied to personal reasons as well. But I'm here. And I will continue to moderate as necessary when I observe violations.
 
And like Lire Lou I know where this is going.Wink
 
 
So for those out there with ulterior motives that would attempt to ride this horse onto a different track?
Which would would contstitute CoC violations that might include trolling and anti-nationalistic rhetoric, covert anti-semitism, etc.
 
 
Do it and I'll put you on that famous bench.
 
Bet.
 
 
 


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 10-Feb-2013 at 17:57
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 19:31
Fortunately, CV has figured out "where this is going", because I haven't.  So far I haven't identified a specific argument beyond the originally post.

Statement:  The Allies also committed war crimes during WWII.

Response: Yes, but not to the degree their enemies or Soviet Russia did, in defiance of established principles of military justice and the Hague Convention, and not as national policy.

Rebuttal: Some incidents referred to, but nothing that matches the degree historically attributed to aforementioned culprits.

Arguments/rebuttals beyond that:  None that specifically rebutts anything so far, nor anything that advances the position of the original poster. 

Warning by moderator: 
So for those out there with ulterior motives that would attempt to ride this horse onto a different track?
Which would would contstitute CoC violations that might include trolling and anti-nationalistic rhetoric, covert anti-semitism, etc.

Procedural query:  Is insisting that the Allies were as bad as the enemy despite overwhelming historical evidence to the contrary "anti-nationalistic rhetoric" or "trolling"?

As for "anti-Semitism", its existence in varying forms and to various degrees is a matter of historical record on the part of both Allies and Axis forces and governments, but not the specific focus of the OP; therefore, it is not germane to the discussion.  It is interesting to note that social mores, prejudices and attitudes were entirely different during the Second World War among the populations of all of the major belligerents.  For example, carpet bombing of civilian populations was considered a valid part of the all-out war against the enemy and their industrial capabilities.

Would that be considered an accurate summation of the discussion to date, CV?

Perhaps it might be helpful if the OP would clarify his intent so that the rest of us can stay on track?


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