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Topic ClosedUS military end of ban on women in combat

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: US military end of ban on women in combat
    Posted: 26-Jan-2013 at 08:59
Im sure members have read about this decision.

I know that some 20(?)  US woman military personnel  have been killed in Iraq.

In England, the death of Corporal Sarah Bryant caused a media storm.

So what do you think about this?

Azita
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2013 at 09:03
It's about time this offensive discrimination was ended.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2013 at 10:33
I think all this is, is that they are making it official.  Women have been in combat sits. for some time.
Not all women, just as not all men, are cutout for combat.  However, I've met a few I would want alongside me, rather than against me.Wink
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2013 at 14:24
No...ole dog this is more then just official recognition of the status quo...this is expansion of roles and occupational skills assignments-vocations, traditionally not assigned to females.
There's no arguing that they have been in combat zones and theaters and have been in physical combat as a result of duties found inherent to their units. Whether that be convoy or perimeter security or guarding a Field hospital as an MP, transportation, quartermaster, ordnance etc. Generally those units are logistic and or maintenance or transportation types in mission requirements and responsibilities.
 
The question now is their entrance into the specific, previously banned, Combat Arms. Infantry-Armor-Combat Engineers (when given an Infantry mission)-Special Forces and Artillery direct fire units. Women are already in  select Combat Aviation and Field Artillery organizations.
 
Is there 1 in a hundred or fifty or even twenty-five capable? yup. probably.
 
Don't mean they are needed.
 
 
 
This, as usual, when bandied about by a liberal, leftist, administration like that of the Obama. Is a sop to the radical feminist agenda. And not based on actual current or projected force requirements to sustain the levels of the aforementioned Combat Arms personnel numbers ....by not continuing to use the traditional source:
 
 
 
Men.
 
 
 
 
Whether ya support it from an EEO perspective is another issue with different parameters and questions imo.
 
 
 
 
But solely from a specific military skills set necessity?
 
 
 
Generally, requiring greater physical fitness and stamina requirements that women don't compete well in?...I wont even discuss the emotional and mental factors that the psychobabblers vomit out.
 
 
(which incidentally is also what some men don't meet either, and consequently don't qualify for; there's more then enough who do however; hence immaterial as a counter by the feminazis)
 
 
 
...nah... no need.Wink
 
 
 
Just more liberal, radical leftist bullshit tis all.Wink


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 26-Jan-2013 at 15:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2013 at 15:09
Originally posted by Azita

Im sure members have read about this decision.

I know that some 20(?)  US woman military personnel  have been killed in Iraq.

In England, the death of Corporal Sarah Bryant caused a media storm.

So what do you think about this?

Azita


From a combat efficiency standpoint, a very bad idea.

From a unit cohesion standpoint...even worse.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2013 at 15:29
Originally posted by Mountain Man



From a combat efficiency standpoint, a very bad idea.

From a unit cohesion standpoint...even worse.

In what way, mountain man?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2013 at 16:02
Agree that "unit cohesion" would be an issue.  i cant see a big issue at Company level, but when we think of squad and Platoon relations, i can see much cause for concern.

Not sure about combat efficiency.
If a person meets the physical requirements and the skill levels required, i cant see what difference gender makes.
Bravery/courage is not gender specific.

i would suggest that a long lasting contraceptive would be essential.

Is this move  just liberals running wild?  Perhaps. or is it opening a much larger recruit pool, maybe a few women might even replace less able males, could this actually increase the US army standard?

Azita




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2013 at 16:27
Originally posted by Azita

Agree that "unit cohesion" would be an issue.  i cant see a big issue at Company level, but when we think of squad and Platoon relations, i can see much cause for concern.

Not sure about combat efficiency.
If a person meets the physical requirements and the skill levels required, i cant see what difference gender makes.
Bravery/courage is not gender specific.

i would suggest that a long lasting contraceptive would be essential.

Is this move  just liberals running wild?  Perhaps. or is it opening a much larger recruit pool, maybe a few women might even replace less able males, could this actually increase the US army standard?

Azita




There are many many situations where men and women work together, including in very stressful situations, so why would combat situations be any different. It's not as if women haven't fought beside men throughout history at times.
As far as liberal thinking is concerned, it is funny how many of those having a go at such things have benefited from the actions of liberal thinking in the past, as in things like education to the masses.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2013 at 07:31
Personally I think it's a bad idea to send women into combat. If they were captured they would almost certainly be raped (especially in patriarchal countries like Afghanistan)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2013 at 09:44
Originally posted by Nick1986

Personally I think it's a bad idea to send women into combat. If they were captured they would almost certainly be raped (especially in patriarchal countries like Afghanistan)
Oh yes, Nick, could you imagine yourself belng raped over and over again, and you feel totally powerless to block out those memories of your rape ordeal from your mind? Somehow I think I might be driven totally insane by memories of being raped now if that was to happen. That aside, Nick, many horrors have been known to be performed on captured soldiers, for which they might already be aware before joining up, or going into combat.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2013 at 09:47
Nick, raping male prisoners is a "tradition" in Afghanistan.

there is an Afghan saying "woman are for children, boys are for fun.

So it makes no difference what gender a prisoner is
 

Edited by Azita - 27-Jan-2013 at 09:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2013 at 12:21
    
 
        
Just more liberal, radical leftist bullshit tis all.Wink


Oh grow up!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2013 at 12:39
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Originally posted by Mountain Man



From a combat efficiency standpoint, a very bad idea.

From a unit cohesion standpoint...even worse.

In what way, mountain man?


Combat efficiency requires that everyone be able to perform at the established level.  It is difficult for women to do that.  Females in combat requires double facilities for everything including field latrines, showers, and even sleeping facilities.

Unit cohesion is a funny thing, but is largely based on knowing the other guy has your back and you have his.  That means you have to have faith that your buddy can handle what comes at you, and trust that he will back you up to the last breath.  Women in dangerous jobs where I have worked, such as the prison system, have routinely failed to earn that trust and respect, being unable or unwilling to successfully back up their male colleagues.

In addition, a quota system for promotions and assignments will come into being because this is a political issue, not one of military need, and that will destroy the effort just as it did in the prison systems.  Men will become resentful of their female counterparts and will not trust them, nor will they watch their backs.

I had a great deal of experience with females in military units when i was in the military, and they complicated my medical duties all out of proportion to any slight contribution they might have made to their military duties.  Most significantly, they believed that their menstrual periods allowed them to opt out of anything such as field duty that they didn't like.



Edited by Mountain Man - 27-Jan-2013 at 12:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2013 at 14:20
Originally posted by red clay

    
 
        
Just more liberal, radical leftist bullshit tis all.Wink


Oh grow up!
 
Cant help here ole dog.....especially if my version of the political machinations are to close to the truth for you to feel comfy.Wink
 
BL. Last time this was perpetrated was under old Les Aspen in 93 working for another notorious sponsor of liberal leftist feminism: 'Slick willy' Clinton.
 
And so I'm old enough to smell political bullshit when I smell it. In this case liberal leftists supporting one of their prime agendas.
 
At the expense of repeating myself which I don't normally do....I say again there is no conceivable military need to enhance national security or enhance combat efficiency and readiness by this policy. MM has already discussed the issue of cohesion. I could add six dozen or so more examples during my 23 year career but tis no need.
 
 
There is no need...consequently..and btw this is not a matter of personal affront or pique on my part....
it's political.  Political to support an agenda. Not necessarily Operational readiness.
 
 
 
 
There is a great deal of difference in supporting EEO-RR-AA in general principal to ensure an opportunity for any gender or life style in the military. And ensuring the best qualified to meet a specific need are found; to meet a specific skill set requirement to ensure force readiness standards . Females, generally, like some men, do not do this. But the greater propensity is found with females.
 
So if one out 25 meet them? Fine sign em up. But it really will become a waste of time and money, imo, as the potential numbers gained will most likely be miniscule.
 
Iow. The probative gain, has yet to be established; as to the value force wide of this particular policy. In this case. And to suggest that an all female unit of the potential aforementioned would serve any particular useful purpose wont wash either.... but would indeed dredge back up former policies involving segregation and violations of EEO and civil liberties....don't need the bullshit.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2013 at 14:53
All I see here is a male supremisist who can't admit that women are capable of doing his job.  So naturally there has to be some political conspiracy or some other excuse, however convoluted.  Or as in this case, if you can't dazzle them, baffle them with BS. 
 
As for MM's delusional addition, I have 3 neighbors, all women, who are NJ Corrections officers.  I wouldn't mess with either of them.  They have consistantly proven to be every bit equal to any man they work with.
 
I probably have more examples where I've had more personal experience than either of you.
 
It's this type of "stuff" that exposes your babblings about "equality" as not much more than empty mouthing of words.
It seems equality is perfectly fine with you as long as it suits your purpose and fits your deluded definitions.
 
I repeat, grow up.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2013 at 15:29
Originally posted by red clay

All I see here is a male supremacist who can't admit that women are capable of doing his job.  So naturally there has to be some political conspiracy or some other excuse, however convoluted.  Or as in this case, if you can't dazzle them, baffle them with BS. 
 
As for MMs delusional addition, I have 3 neighbors, all women, who are NJ Corrections officers.  I wouldn't mess with either of them.  They have consistently proven to be every bit equal to any man they work with.
 
I probably have more examples where I've had more personal experience than either of you.
 
It's this type of "stuff" that exposes your babbling about "equality" as not much more than empty mouthing of words.
It seems equality is perfectly fine with you as long as it suits your purpose and fits your deluded definitions.
 
I repeat, grow up.
 
 
 
 
Whether he's delusional or not is not necessarily yours to judge other then subjectively; unless of course your life experience includes an MD as a Clinical Psychiatrist and you have conducted the necessary evils...other then that it's just a cheap straw man shot.
 
 
Same same reference bold number two.
 
 
As for number three....? right after you take off those liberal blinders and accept that all is not sacrosanct and of necessarily value; when it comes to that political philosophy. And accept the fact that when exposed, the agendas of the liberal leftists do not meet the prerequisites for probative value in every ones estimation. Nor are we, they or I, required to accept them at face value.
 
 
Unless of course your now suggesting that those will be the only ones accepted or expressed here by you as the admin-owner. We have had the bullshit here before. Remember?
 
 
If that's your batteline, then you no longer need me here in any capacity. Bet.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2013 at 16:04

You are welcome to do whatever you wish.  I go out of my way to allow folks here to express themselves as they desire.

It seems that you feel I don't have that right and it is perfectly ok to crap on that which I believe in.
 
Why don't you go someplace that thinks it's perfectly fine to denigrate someone elses education, as after that little plum, I realize your supposed respect for me is a pile of dung.
 


Edited by red clay - 27-Jan-2013 at 16:31
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2013 at 09:20
Centrix, i think you've gone to far here as Red didn't deserve that personal attack. Instead of insulting his education, you could have explained why women shouldn't go into combat: male soldiers would fight over them, terrorists would molest them, and post traumatic stress might have a worse effect on women than men. On the other hand, there's no reason why women shouldn't serve in all-female units (like the Russians in WWII)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2013 at 10:32
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Whether he's delusional or not is not necessarily yours to judge other then subjectively; unless of course your life experience includes an MD as a Clinical Psychiatrist and you have conducted the necessary evils...other then that it's just a cheap straw man shot.
 
 
Same same reference bold number two.
 
 
As for number three....? right after you take off those liberal blinders and accept that all is not sacrosanct and of necessarily value; when it comes to that political philosophy. And accept the fact that when exposed, the agendas of the liberal leftists do not meet the prerequisites for probative value in every ones estimation. Nor are we, they or I, required to accept them at face value.
 
 
Unless of course your now suggesting that those will be the only ones accepted or expressed here by you as the admin-owner. We have had the bullshit here before. Remember?
 
 
If that's your batteline, then you no longer need me here in any capacity. Bet.
Oh I really do love it when someone tries to pass fallacious logic as some variation of logic meant to blind those into believing is a worthy representation of logical reasoning in an argument, CV, because I am more than happy to point it out to them, and this is me with my poor schooling and all, doing so to my academic betters. People may ask what would something have to be to be classed as fallacious logic in regards to an argument, so I must be as clear as I can with the little schooling I have had. Fallacious would be when someone argues a point when it may not necessarily be so. To make a judgement call as to someone being delusional in regards to an opinion is a personal call at times, and not necessarily a clinical one. Also not straw man, making that also fallacious, but if there had been any doubt my first point should have been a pretty strong indicator to that. Also, CV, attacking the principle of equality, really?  Btw, CV, "Unless of course your now suggesting that those will be the only ones accepted or expressed here by you as the admin-owner. We have had the bullshit here before. Remember? If that's your batteline, then you no longer need me here in any capacity." O_o This is a history forum, that also allows some politics here and there, and like all arguments rests on logic, and when things re a little fuzzy, compromise for the betterment of all. This means good moderators working well with good admin. My father didn't talk with his sister for over forty years, because they didn't agree politically, and do you know what they eventually realized? Being loving brothers and sisters didn't rely on them sharing their political affiliations, and from then on didn't talk politics. Now I'm not saying don't talk politics, what I'm saying is it is not necessary to push things when opinion is taking the place of logical conclusions.    

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2013 at 11:32
Originally posted by red clay

All I see here is a male supremisist who can't admit that women are capable of doing his job.  So naturally there has to be some political conspiracy or some other excuse, however convoluted.  Or as in this case, if you can't dazzle them, baffle them with BS. 
 
As for MM's delusional addition, I have 3 neighbors, all women, who are NJ Corrections officers.  I wouldn't mess with either of them.  They have consistantly proven to be every bit equal to any man they work with.
 
I probably have more examples where I've had more personal experience than either of you.
 
It's this type of "stuff" that exposes your babblings about "equality" as not much more than empty mouthing of words.
It seems equality is perfectly fine with you as long as it suits your purpose and fits your deluded definitions.
 
I repeat, grow up.
 
 


Did you just say that if you disagree with my experiences as a solider for twenty years, mostly in combat line units, and my thirty year career in medicine, including primary care responsibility for units containing female soldiers, and a decade's worth of experience in the Colorado State Prison system during the transition to the inclusion of female correctional officers,  that I'm "delusional"?  I am personally and professionally offended by your insinuations, made from the protection of your lofty position as a forum administrator.  Had I called you "delusional"  I would have been banned, as I am sure I will be for daring to challenge your abuse of your "authority", but if banning me is your response, so be it.  I will have made my point and won the field.

"Delusional"?  No.  But very, very experienced in the real world, and asked to share that experience by one of your own:


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