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Abraham Lincoln

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Abraham Lincoln
    Posted: 20-Apr-2013 at 11:57
Originally posted by medenaywe

Lincoln was a sixteenth president of US.He was assassinated 5 days after South army general Robert.E Lee
had surrendered to general Grant in 1865.Why?!?Who did lead conspiracy plot?
 
 
Med. there have been several hundred books written on this subject.  Theories about who was behind it run from Jefferson Davis, to Sec. of War, Stanton. 
There are also theories that while Booth was the public face, and the primary actor, there were many others involved, some were Union officers.
 
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2013 at 12:04
There were no structural changes inside States&Constitution after it?Stuff changes?Political parties leaders
stayed as they had been before?No "witch hunts"?
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2013 at 13:02
Nope!  The war was over, the South was in ruins.  People were war weary.  They were satisfied that the crime was committed by Southern sympathisers.  The government had the "criminals" and promptly hung them.  Forget the fact that there wasn't one among them smart enough to have planned the assasination.
 
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2013 at 13:33
No fan of Oreilly as a historian; he ntl does a decent job on the ct's in his book. Course that's probably because of his ghost and the fact that stuff has been done to death by much better then him.

That's 'Killing Lincoln' Meden by Bill Oreilly.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2013 at 12:51
Back in the day, there was a wonderfully old and cluttered book shop in Philly, called "Leary's".  Leary's had been around since before the Civil War.  It was 5 floors of old books, magazines etc.
 
In the early 70's 2 guys who were doing research on the assassination found a series of mags from 1864 to 1865.  I don't recall which mag. possibly "Harper's".
One of them noticed handwritten numbers in the margins of one of the mags.  They started looking at the others and found the same in those. 
What they supposedly had found were a series of communications in code.  These messages were allegedly from Sec. of War Stanton to one or more of the conspirators.
 
The messages were examined by experts and were found to be authentic as far as ink etc.  What actually happened to them I don't know.
 
BTW-  Leary's closed in the mid 80s.  It was such a sad event that folks gathered there for a kind of "funeral".
 
 


Edited by red clay - 21-Apr-2013 at 13:26
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2013 at 17:10
I voted him "great" rather than genius because as a person he had his flaws, as do all such men, and because I believe the Civil War to have been largely unnecessary and brought about by a clear violation of the principle of State's Rights.

Slavery was never the central issue, and would have died a natural death within a decade due to the rising tide of the Industrial Revolution which was rapidly making manual labor obsolete.

Had Lincoln truly been a "genius", then I believe he could have resolved the issues without a long, costly and incredibly bloody war.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2013 at 23:09

New Lincoln math pages suggest more education

Two math-notebook pages recently authenticated as belonging to Abraham Lincoln suggest the 16th president, who was known to downplay his formal education, may have spent more time in school than usually thought.

And the Illinois State University math professors behind the discovery say the work shows Lincoln was no slouch, either.

Math professors Nerida Ellerton and Ken Clements said Friday at the university in Normal that they'd recently confirmed that the two pages were part of a previously known math notebook from Lincoln's childhood. It was found in the archives of Houghton Library at Harvard University, where it remains.

The book, known as a cyphering book in Lincoln's day, is a sort math workbook in which Lincoln wrote math problems and their answers. It's the oldest known Lincoln manuscript.

Based on the difficulty of the problems involved and dates on some of the pages — 1824 and, on the recently authenticated pages, 1826, when Lincoln was 17 — Lincoln likely worked in the book intermittently over several calendar years while his family lived in Indiana, the married professors said. They think he could have started as early as the age of 10 and believe his work happened while he was in school.

"Most people say he went to school for anything between three months and nine months" over the course of his life, Clements said. "We think he went to school (up to) two years."

And very little of the work is wrong, he added.

"He made very few errors, and he always knew what he was trying to do," Clements added. "We've studied thousands of these cyphering books. You don't always get the feeling that 'this guy knew what he was doing.'"

The professors' find suggests Lincoln may have gone to school over as many as three to five winters, according to historian Daniel Stowell, director of the Papers of Abraham Lincoln project at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library in Springfield. The library owns one previously identified page of the book.

"They are arguing with some merit that a cyphering book would have been created in a school setting," Stowell said. "It does at least open the possibility that he may have had more formal schooling than originally thought. Not a whole lot more, but still more."

The pages — attached as a single leaf — include word problems that are the equivalent of roughly eighth-grade modern work, Clements said.

"If 100 dollars in one year gain 3½ dollars interest, what sum will gain $38.50 cents in one year and a quarter?" one reads.

Any student doing such work in the 1820s would have been more advanced than most on the frontier in Indiana, Clements said.

"If you got to that stage, you'd sort of done well," he said.

Lincoln is known to have later studied trigonometry and geometry on his own.

The newly authenticated pages have been in the Harvard library's archives since 1954. They were known as Lincoln documents, but their origin wasn't known, the professors said. The two looked at the documents as they researched a book they've written on math books from the period.

A letter from former Lincoln law partner William Herndon from 1875 that accompanied the papers, describing them, made the authentication relatively straightforward, Clements said.

Lincoln's stepmother, Sarah Bush Lincoln, gave the cyphering book to Herndon after Lincoln's death, and Herndon then gave them to other people, Stowell said.

http://www.newsdaily.com/article/ee06783470b8d3d3b5425972c7ba5fd8/new-lincoln-math-pages-suggest-more-education

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  Quote Stefany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 10:04
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

I am an affcinado of SB Oates, With Malice Toward None: A Life of Abraham Lincoln  and  Carl Sandburg's Abraham Lincoln: The War Years. They still sum him up for me.


David Donald's "Lincoln" is an awesome book too.
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  Quote Stefany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 10:07
Originally posted by Mountain Man

I voted him "great" rather than genius because as a person he had his flaws, as do all such men, and because I believe the Civil War to have been largely unnecessary and brought about by a clear violation of the principle of State's Rights.

Slavery was never the central issue, and would have died a natural death within a decade due to the rising tide of the Industrial Revolution which was rapidly making manual labor obsolete.

Had Lincoln truly been a "genius", then I believe he could have resolved the issues without a long, costly and incredibly bloody war.

Of course, given the fact that the North had slaves and that even Grant had slaves proves that the war was waged for anything but slavery.
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  Quote Stefany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 10:56
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by medenaywe

Lincoln was a sixteenth president of US.He was assassinated 5 days after South army general Robert.E Lee
had surrendered to general Grant in 1865.Why?!?Who did lead conspiracy plot?
 
 
Med. there have been several hundred books written on this subject.  Theories about who was behind it run from Jefferson Davis, to Sec. of War, Stanton. 
There are also theories that while Booth was the public face, and the primary actor, there were many others involved, some were Union officers.
 
 
 

There is even a theory that Grant was involved in Lincoln's assassination. Not far from the truth in my opinion.


Edited by Stefany - 24-Feb-2014 at 10:56
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  Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 11:10
The main reason for the Civil War was to hold the Union together, it wasn't to eliminate slavery. However, Lincoln did use the war as a way of putting an end to slavery.

Slavery existed in all the American colonies, North & South, back in colonial times. It never was a major economic force in the North, though. Most northern farms were small, and were operated by individual families. Slavery was an important economic force in the South, where large plantations (especially cotton & tobacco) were dependent upon slave labor. Slavery became unpopular in the north in the period leading up to the Revolutionary War, and it was also discouraged by the British government. In the early 1800s, the further importation of slaves was ended, although the internal slave-trade continued. But in the years after the Revolutionary War, the northern states gradually passed laws ending slavery within their individual states, and by the mid-1800s. slavery was ended throughout the northern U.S.A.

Ulysses Grant was not really much of a slave-owner, although his wife apparently owned some slaves given her by her father. The only evidence of Grant himself being a slave-owner is a document he signed freeing a slave. His public stance was anti-slavery.

Edited by Windemere - 24-Feb-2014 at 11:13
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 11:34
Originally posted by Stefany

Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by medenaywe

Lincoln was a sixteenth president of US.He was assassinated 5 days after South army general Robert.E Lee
had surrendered to general Grant in 1865.Why?!?Who did lead conspiracy plot?
 
 
Med. there have been several hundred books written on this subject.  Theories about who was behind it run from Jefferson Davis, to Sec. of War, Stanton. 
There are also theories that while Booth was the public face, and the primary actor, there were many others involved, some were Union officers.
 
 
 

There is even a theory that Grant was involved in Lincoln's assassination. Not far from the truth in my opinion.
Only as far as being kind of indirectly involved through being kept away by Edwin Stanton.
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  Quote Stefany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 16:15
Originally posted by Windemere

The main reason for the Civil War was to hold the Union together, it wasn't to eliminate slavery. However, Lincoln did use the war as a way of putting an end to slavery.

Slavery existed in all the American colonies, North & South, back in colonial times. It never was a major economic force in the North, though. Most northern farms were small, and were operated by individual families. Slavery was an important economic force in the South, where large plantations (especially cotton & tobacco) were dependent upon slave labor. Slavery became unpopular in the north in the period leading up to the Revolutionary War, and it was also discouraged by the British government. In the early 1800s, the further importation of slaves was ended, although the internal slave-trade continued. But in the years after the Revolutionary War, the northern states gradually passed laws ending slavery within their individual states, and by the mid-1800s. slavery was ended throughout the northern U.S.A.


I agree with you generally, but during the war Kentucky, Missouri and Maryland were slave-holding states within the Union. Lincoln's emancipation proclamation liberated the slaves in the South - if you were a slave within the Union, oh well that was too damn bad.



Ulysses Grant was not really much of a slave-owner, although his wife apparently owned some slaves given her by her father. The only evidence of Grant himself being a slave-owner is a document he signed freeing a slave. His public stance was anti-slavery.

His wife or him, doesn't matter. If Grant was really so anti-slavery he would have never allowed slaves in his house. During these times, the husbands were masters of the households.
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  Quote Stefany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 16:16

Only as far as being kind of indirectly involved through being kept away by Edwin Stanton.

Could you please elaborate?
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2014 at 19:07
Grant had been invited to join Lincoln at Ford's.  Grant traveled with an entourage of officers.  Had he been there it was unlikely that Booth would have been able to get to Lincoln.  It's alleged that Stanton drew Grant away with another engagement.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2014 at 20:01
Originally posted by red clay

Grant had been invited to join Lincoln at Ford's.  Grant traveled with an entourage of officers.  Had he been there it was unlikely that Booth would have been able to get to Lincoln.  It's alleged that Stanton drew Grant away with another engagement.


Very interesting Red! I have never heard of this. Just what are your sources? They could be interesting also?

Besides, numerous Slave Holders in the South were really Yankees! Their great plantations were held in Louisiana, and other places, while these English and Yankee intruders had their fine homes well from the field hands! Please think of the Mississippi river cities that lived upon high bluffs, across the Mississippi river from Arkansas and Louisiana.

In certain areas of the slave holding South some of these powerful men, received dispensations which allowed them to continue to master the slaves, well into the War of Northern Aggression.

It is oft not mentioned that even in the Deep South, some counties actually succeeded from the Southern Confederacy!

In the area of N. Mississippi where my family resided during this great war, it was even described by Union Officers as a land of desolation!

Ron
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2014 at 22:01
I don't recall a specific source. It's in several books written about the 48 hours immed. after he was shot.  I should have said it's alleged.  Stanton is often looked at as having something to do with the conspiracy.
 
 
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  Quote Stefany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2014 at 16:41
Originally posted by opuslola

Originally posted by red clay

Grant had been invited to join Lincoln at Ford's.  Grant traveled with an entourage of officers.  Had he been there it was unlikely that Booth would have been able to get to Lincoln.  It's alleged that Stanton drew Grant away with another engagement.


Very interesting Red! I have never heard of this. Just what are your sources? They could be interesting also?

Besides, numerous Slave Holders in the South were really Yankees! Their great plantations were held in Louisiana, and other places, while these English and Yankee intruders had their fine homes well from the field hands! Please think of the Mississippi river cities that lived upon high bluffs, across the Mississippi river from Arkansas and Louisiana.

In certain areas of the slave holding South some of these powerful men, received dispensations which allowed them to continue to master the slaves, well into the War of Northern Aggression.

It is oft not mentioned that even in the Deep South, some counties actually succeeded from the Southern Confederacy!

In the area of N. Mississippi where my family resided during this great war, it was even described by Union Officers as a land of desolation!

Ron

Interesting information, thank you. 

About Grant - I know Grant cancelled at the last minute the thing with the theater because Mrs. Grant hated Mrs. Lincoln.
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  Quote Stefany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2014 at 02:38
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by medenaywe

Lincoln was a sixteenth president of US.He was assassinated 5 days after South army general Robert.E Lee
had surrendered to general Grant in 1865.Why?!?Who did lead conspiracy plot?
 
 
Med. there have been several hundred books written on this subject.  Theories about who was behind it run from Jefferson Davis, to Sec. of War, Stanton. 
There are also theories that while Booth was the public face, and the primary actor, there were many others involved, some were Union officers.
 
 
 

Why would Stanton be suspect? He wanted to become a President too  ? :P 
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  Quote Mikestone8 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2014 at 04:45
Don't see quite what the casualty list has to do with it, unless there is evidence that someone else could have won the war more cheaply.

No Republican President would have acquiesced in secession, nor probably most Democratic ones. Even Buchanan refused to surrender Fort Sumter, so war was pretty certain at some point, whoever was POTUS. When it came it was supported by Congress from beginning to end, a pro-war Congress was elected in 1862, and Lincoln himself re-elected by a solid margin in 1864. Significantly, the Democrats dared not nominate an anti-war candidate that year.

So Lincoln was doing what the people's representatives wished him to do,, and afaics at least there is no reason to think anyone else could have done so at lesser cost.
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