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America under Islam

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: America under Islam
    Posted: 08-Jan-2013 at 12:18

In an alternative history, Christopher Columbus is mocked and dismissed by both the Spanish and Portuguese, so he offers his services to the Turks. The sultan provides Columbus with a ship and promise of reward if he claims the new land for Islam.
What would the USA be like today if it was colonised by Muslims rather than the English and Spaniards? Would Europe be more or less advanced, and would America be independent or remain under the caliph's control?
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  Quote Toltec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2013 at 10:06
I guess it would be a lot more peaceful, fewer foreign wars, crime free, less dictatorships genocides and human rights abuses caused around the world, less US backed terrorism worldwide, better food and less fundamentalist religion than now. All in all a big improvement I'd say, start handing out those Korans in schools.

Edited by Toltec - 11-Jan-2013 at 10:09
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2013 at 20:21
Does that mean the Turks would be the superpower of the modern age? With New World gold, they could easily fund further expansionism into Europe, perhaps stretching their boundaries as far as Germany
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2013 at 20:52
Natives would have been as equally brutalized and exploited. Mandatory conversions and enslavements ie. mass slavery will occur. Indigenous status if even obtained, would still have led to natives being marginalized, exploited and oppressed by Islam; as evidenced by their earlier actual expansion across North Africa, the greater Middle East and the Iberian penisular.
 
Jizya or dhimma would have been the least of the natives problems.
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2013 at 22:17
Columbus sailing for Islam would not have changed the colonization of North America which, with the obvious exception of Mexico,  had been passed up by the Spanish precisely because they viewed it as without the developed subject peoples that their colonization depended upon. So the English, Dutch, French, and Swedish colonists of North America would have left a Protestant North America facing down the Islamic south below the Rio Grande. On the plus side, Latin America would still have Selma Hayak and Shakira, but would still be an economic backwater locked in centuries of solitude.

Oh yes, I forgot to count the Orthodox Russians of the Northwest and Alaska. They would have been with us also.


Edited by lirelou - 12-Jan-2013 at 22:19
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 13:50
Originally posted by lirelou

Columbus sailing for Islam would not have changed the colonization of North America which, with the obvious exception of Mexico,  had been passed up by the Spanish precisely because they viewed it as without the developed subject peoples that their colonization depended upon. So the English, Dutch, French, and Swedish colonists of North America would have left a Protestant North America facing down the Islamic south below the Rio Grande. On the plus side, Latin America would still have Selma Hayak and Shakira, but would still be an economic backwater locked in centuries of solitude.

Oh yes, I forgot to count the Orthodox Russians of the Northwest and Alaska. They would have been with us also.


So cowboys and Muslims would fight to conquer the West? Wonder which side would ultimately win?
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 14:08
The French trappers and various Mountain Men of the 'pays d'en haut and coureurs des bois'... coupled with the pesky redskins of the SW. Particularly the N'de, Dine and the nʉmʉ tekwapʉ .
Ya got to remember to keep this chronologically straight.... vaqueros come latter.Wink
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 14:48
Originally posted by Nick1986


What would the USA be like today if it was colonised by Muslims rather than the English and Spaniards?
That is an interesting scenario.  I can see muslims gaining early footholds in the New World, but they would also face alot of Christian competition from Spain, France, Great Britain etc as soon as they discovered the sailing routes.  The routes would be discovered soon as the Spanish, French British would make it a national priority.  
 
Originally posted by lirelou

 So the English, Dutch, French, and Swedish colonists of North America would have left a Protestant North America facing down the Islamic south below the Rio Grande.
That is assuming that the Spanish, Portuguese and others respected Turkish claims.  Not only were these nations not inclined to respect Turkish claims,  but the Spanish and Portuguese had excellent sailing skills and were far closer geographically to the New World than Turkey.
 
My guess is that Christian colonies would develop very close to and at the same pace as the Islamic ones.  In the long run, the outnumbered and logistically stretched Muslims would hold on to their Carribean Island holdings and the Yucatan Penninsula (easier to defend, more culturally insulated) but the competing Christians would colonize and / or capture most of the other areas.
 
One interesting spinoff would be Cuba.  Would an Islamic Cuba go communist?  


Edited by Cryptic - 15-Jan-2013 at 14:57
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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 15:27
OK, I confess that this comment is rather provocative, I hope the hard of thinking wont get too excited.

The USA was NOT colonised BY Muslims. But it was colonised USING Muslims, Millions of Muslims slaves, from British colonial time to the late 19th century.

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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 16:07
It would be a muslim territory and not many people would want to immigrate, including muslims, who also prefer free world.

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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 18:18
Originally posted by Azita

OK, I confess that this comment is rather provocative, I hope the hard of thinking wont get too excited.

The USA was NOT colonised BY Muslims. But it was colonised USING Muslims, Millions of Muslims slaves, from British colonial time to the late 19th century.

Azita
 
 
Not just the Brits...by definition that would also include Muslim slaves sold, after capture and prior to conversion, by Muslim slave traders in Africa the ME and India. Not to mention the same source servicing the French-Dutch-Spanish and Portuguese. Muslims made some of the greatest of slave traders.Wink
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 19:35


No Rock n' Roll that's for sure...
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2013 at 00:01
Originally posted by Azita

OK, I confess that this comment is rather provocative, I hope the hard of thinking wont get too excited.

The USA was NOT colonised BY Muslims. But it was colonised USING Muslims, Millions of Muslims slaves, from British colonial time to the late 19th century.

Azita
 
 
Could you provide some credible sources for those numbers.  I'm somewhat familiar with the slave trade, primarily dealing with various regions they came from and social and religious practices.  The numbers don't jive with what I have read over the years. Particularly when some of the most active slavers were themselves Islamic, I think you will find the actual number quite low.
 
 
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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2013 at 06:57
What religion would have been predominate in the the Arab-controlled Trans-Saharan region?
BUT, the conversion to Islam would have been forced, so I concede that most of the slaves would not have been "true" muslims. The traders that the slavers deal with, many would be Muslims.

Muslims were not "supposed " to enslave other Muslims, im sure we all know how strictly the word of Allah is adhered too..........

millions of Muslims to America,? ok as a salve to the usual reaction, tens of thousands out of the millions. hope that makes things better.




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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2013 at 09:36
Azita, if you want something to chew on, look into the evidence of Islamic influence in Pre-Columbian Southeast US.  There are several scientists who have been researching this for the last 3-4 years.  It was all started by an epigrapher who started looking at place names.  Example, Tallahasee. 
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 08:58
Originally posted by Baal Melqart



No Rock n' Roll that's for sure...

I thought the four string guitar was a Saracen invention. The backbeat was originally derived from traditional African drumming
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 13:39
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by Baal Melqart



No Rock n' Roll that's for sure...

I thought the four string guitar was a Saracen invention. The backbeat was originally derived from traditional African drumming



You're talking about Oud which has generally mellow and relaxed tunes. I don't think an Islamic America would invent something upbeat like Rock n' Roll but then that's my opinion.
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 15:04
Originally posted by Nick1986


In an alternative history, Christopher Columbus is mocked and dismissed by both the Spanish and Portuguese, so he offers his services to the Turks. The sultan provides Columbus with a ship and promise of reward if he claims the new land for Islam.
What would the USA be like today if it was colonised by Muslims rather than the English and Spaniards? Would Europe be more or less advanced, and would America be independent or remain under the caliph's control?


Interesting topic, but against forum rules to openly discuss.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 15:16
Originally posted by Mountain Man

Originally posted by Nick1986


In an alternative history, Christopher Columbus is mocked and dismissed by both the Spanish and Portuguese, so he offers his services to the Turks. The sultan provides Columbus with a ship and promise of reward if he claims the new land for Islam.
What would the USA be like today if it was colonised by Muslims rather than the English and Spaniards? Would Europe be more or less advanced, and would America be independent or remain under the caliph's control?


Interesting topic, but against forum rules to openly discuss.

In my view, anything can be discussed as long as people remain civil


Edited by Nick1986 - 19-Jan-2013 at 15:17
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 15:19
Originally posted by Mountain Man

Originally posted by Nick1986


In an alternative history, Christopher Columbus is mocked and dismissed by both the Spanish and Portuguese, so he offers his services to the Turks. The sultan provides Columbus with a ship and promise of reward if he claims the new land for Islam.
What would the USA be like today if it was colonised by Muslims rather than the English and Spaniards? Would Europe be more or less advanced, and would America be independent or remain under the caliph's control?


Interesting topic, but against forum rules to openly discuss.
 
 
If it was it wouldn't be. This is not a topic dealing with proselytization or extreme nationalism but of a historical alternate version of NA colonization....government...conditions...effects...repercussions and social cultural development....among a few.
Iow. old dog don't create that which is not necessary.....if there's a beef ya know the drill.....take it PM.
 
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