Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Might the African Man by Mostaert be the face ...

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
ThaKing View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Location: Holland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote ThaKing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Might the African Man by Mostaert be the face ...
    Posted: 29-Oct-2012 at 12:52

Might the African Man by Mostaert be the face of Holy Emperor of the Roman Empire Charles V Habsburg? I recently saw his niece Dorothea of Denmark and they have similarities. Perhaps we can go over all his posted portraits in google and see if this is possible. I'm intrgued by the fact he was described as with massive prognathism.
 
 
He might have inherited his thick lips from his grandfather Ferdinand of Aragon, King of Spain.
 
 
All possible portraits of Charles V Habsburg. Not possible they all show his true looks.
 
 
My least favourite, ugly, but it shows prognathism.
 
 
By Cranach the Elder
 
The tilted head reminds me of the Mostaert portrait. Next the bejeweled bible or bag seems to be the same on both portraits.
 
 


Edited by ThaKing - 29-Oct-2012 at 13:02
Back to Top
Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar

Joined: 18-Aug-2006
Location: The Llano
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7392
  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2012 at 14:02
Doubtful. Facial characteristics are not that similar. More then likely it was some African or Moorish-blooded Spanish courtier (clothing looks spanish of the era..to me) at the Emperor's court. But whoever he was he became famous.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

Back to Top
ThaKing View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Location: Holland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote ThaKing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2012 at 04:16
It does not seem that likeness was always the first aim for a painter if we study the mass of his portraits. I doubt some of them even got to see him at all. Most portraits begin as a sketch of a face, and body, dress, background are added in the studio. Many portraits copy earlier images of a person. But lucky for us today, engraved portraits and prints are made after a painted portrait, so even if that one has crumbled, we still have the print. But the problem we are facing is that not all portraits are known, or shown to the public.
Back to Top
ThaKing View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Location: Holland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote ThaKing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2012 at 04:27
The portrait was first A Moor, Next An African Man, next it was a Spanish noble at the court of Habsburg at Malines. Today it is supposed to be a bodyguard of Charles V, named Christophe le More. He wears a medal connected to a pelgrimage to a Black Madonna shrine in present day Belgium. The date of the visit when he was about 27 years, the date of the portrait, the painters dates all make it possible we are looking at Charles V Habsburg. I will post more portraits and family members to make it clear why I think this.




Edited by ThaKing - 16-Nov-2012 at 09:50
Back to Top
ThaKing View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Location: Holland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote ThaKing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2012 at 08:43
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Crests/Holy_roman_coin_999.jpg

Daugter of Charles V Habsburg



Edited by ThaKing - 30-Oct-2012 at 08:45
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 528
  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2012 at 22:21
ThaKing, I did my university studies in history in Spanish and never saw anything that remotely suggested that Carlos Quinto was Black. If you are a Hollander, you better than anyone should know that. (If one takes the contrarian view that Charles V was more of a Nederduits by birth and cultural upbringing than he was a Spaniard). 

Oh, a minor error. You list Ferdinand as King of Spain. He was Prince of Aragon and Regent of Castille and Leon when Isabel died, making him the de facto King. As I understand it, the actual titles themselves passed to his and Isabel's successors, ergo Juana la Loca and her son Karl, which was the purpose of the Catholic Kings marriage anyway. 

So, who on either the Hapsburg side, or the Trastamarra side had Black blood? To my knowledge, none. 
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
ThaKing View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Location: Holland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote ThaKing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2012 at 09:06
It seems my ability to post images has been blocked.
Can somebody answer my complaint?

This is why you will never hear about Black European Royals and nobles.
Because of censorship.
As a woman you might know that women are held back, traded, remain uneducated, 
because the ones in power want it to be this way. So this story cannot come out and is blocked at every turn, because it upsets the status quo, which however is fraudulent.
Blacks were the first people, and would not the first comers do all the discoveries and write all the books. This one can only reject if one considers Blacks inferior. If you considere men equal to woman, why should men dominate all the time. What are the powers and means they use to make women seem less. If you meditate on these questions you might understand what i'm about.
As you might know, Europe is on Africa's doorstep, and the first Europeans were Africans, from all complexions. I deduct that they remained brown and black, and did not become whites just like that. The whites came 6000 years ago: they are the farmers history talks about.
We are dealing with revisionism. The ancien regime was not only brought down, but their Black Superiority was obliterated from history. Many person we think we know as whites were described as brown and black of complexion. A brown and black complexion does not equal white, no way. Try to keep an open mind and look at the images I have posted. They show dark skin and other signs of blackness. The whole anonymous business is just to hide the truth.
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 528
  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2012 at 17:55
Actually I have heard about part Black distinguished Europeans, names Alexandre Dumas and Alexandre Pushtin, and as for Black looking blacks, there was Alexandre's pere, Gral. Thomas Dumas. So my education was not totally anti-African. I still fail to see what your last post has to do with a Hapsburg from the early modern era. Your question was: Might the African Man in the painting be... And from both the evidence you presented and all I saw at the Prado, the answer appears to be. More likely not. But that's just my opinion.
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
ThaKing View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Location: Holland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote ThaKing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2012 at 08:50
Leopold I Habsburg, from the Lorraine branch of the family. He was described by Swinburne, quoted by JA Rogers: 'a short, hale black man.'

Europe is on Africa;s doorstep and the first Europeans came from Africa. So what do you think has happened to these Africans?

The idea there were only two Blacks in all of Europa: Dumas and Pushkin is extremely silly. This idea already should put thinking people on guard.




Lets take a look at Blumenbach who coined The Caucasian Race. Does he not look Black?


Blumenbach who clearly has black complexion was also shown as a white man. Just like Charles V was shown as a white man. A thinking person will ask: why did they make black complexioned Europeans appear like whites?

Its because of these faked portraits people say: there were no Blacks in Europe.
A true scientist understands that research is never finished, and every generation must write history again. But on this front research is stagnating and opinions are blocked because they question fixed believes and status quo.


[The Philosophers at Supper]

With Voltaire in the middle raising his hand, looking black complexioned. Rousseau was described by James Boswell as ; A genteel black man in an Armenian coat. Its interesting that all the great philosophers had brown or black complexions. This made me believe that the whole European elite was brown or black complexioned.


Voltaire was very black complexioned. This needs to be explained.


Edited by ThaKing - 10-Nov-2012 at 09:06
Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14607
  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2012 at 11:31
It looks like shadowing pencil work for me.It needs to be anyway!
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 528
  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2012 at 11:05
Yes, Medenaywe, and the irony here is that we are using such art-work to theorize on a man from a family whose geneology is well mapped out on European royalty charts.
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
ThaKing View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Location: Holland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote ThaKing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2012 at 05:14
Originally posted by medenaywe

It looks like shadowing pencil work for me.It needs to be anyway!

At least you agree with me that the sources I have been posting seem to show black complexion. Yes, they do, and this is achieved by shading, though these are engravings. By you actually responding to my arguments is a great leap forward, instead of just like lrelou, the other person, just repeating his or her mantra. If you agree to a discussion, you should be willing to respond to argument. You may not agree, but you give cause why you disagree.

With humans its like cats: some are white, some are brown, some are grey, some are black. When granny tells you her cat has run away and he is grey, you cannot come to her with a brown cat.


[William of Orange, 'more brown then white']

So if a person is described as 'more brown then white' and 'brown of complexion and beard' (Jhr. Bresteyn 1933) we need to look for a dark brown skinned person.  And this person is William of Orange (1533-1584) who was the founder of the Orange dynasty of Holland.


[Charles II Stuart, The Black Boy]

The used method is this. A person like Charles II Stuart was called The Black Boy, and described as A tall black man and The Swarthy Stuart (James Boswell). Next we find many images which show a black skinned man. His grandmother Anne of Denmark is shown as a Black woman, his greatgrandmother Maria of Scots looks very dark of complexion.



Kurfurst Moritz of Sachsen, Saxony: the father in law of William of Orange. Prince Maurice of Orange was his grandson.

Genealogies offer dates and names and titles, but nothing about complexions.
These are Europeans, the first Europeans who regarded themselves as true Europeans. Hence they declared themselves a nobility over whites, who came much later.


Edited by ThaKing - 12-Nov-2012 at 05:26
Back to Top
ThaKing View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Location: Holland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote ThaKing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2012 at 05:34
By godsgrace I have introduced to you all black portraits of European kings and emperors, I have introduced personal descriptions as a way of evaluating a portrait, I thus have shown there were Black and brown kings and emperors in Europe. We can now ask what the fake whitened portraits of these persons mean, why do museums only show those whitened portraits, are they authentic or are they over paints or whitened copies.

There are Blacks found on the thrones of China, and we find Black Olmec Kings in Mesoamerica. But I feel the Black European nobles, Kings and emperors are much more important to history today, as a means of explaining racism for instance. Racism is a liberation ideology to free Europe from aristocratic oppression. The Ancien Regime was Black. Afterwards when white serfs were emancipated, Racism took an ugly turn, and history was completely white washed.

If you disagree, kindly explain the black portraits to me.


Edited by ThaKing - 12-Nov-2012 at 05:45
Back to Top
ThaKing View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Location: Holland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote ThaKing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2012 at 05:39
Originally posted by lirelou

Yes, Medenaywe, and the irony here is that we are using such art-work to theorize on a man from a family whose geneology is well mapped out on European royalty charts.

There is no irony here. 
Genealogy tells us nothing about a persons looks or complexion. 
Or they should have been out of the ordinary llike a hump back or so.
Some persons were called The Black, because they were much blacker then the rest.
Which does not mean the rest was white.
Even these few cases are never adressed, or we hear of simplistic expleantions like, 
they had black hair, or they wore a black suit of arms, 
like some persons say of The Black Prince, Edward of Woodstock.


[Madame de Staël, 'too swarthy']

Barones de Staël was described as 'too swarthy' in the biography by by Renee Weingarten and a internet site about Swiss writers in France we read that a American traveller saw her as 'good features, bad complexion.' She was very dark of skin, we can read in many other publications.
Her father De Necker was minister of finance of Louis XVI, and his daughter was received at court. The French King and his wife co-signed her marriage certificate.


Edited by ThaKing - 12-Nov-2012 at 05:44
Back to Top
ThaKing View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Location: Holland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote ThaKing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2012 at 09:46

Friedrich van Hessen Eschwege by Merian. He was a grandson (or so) of Count Johan VI of Nassau, the brother of William I of Orange (1533-1584)
Back to Top
PeterKane View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Jan-2014
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1
  Quote PeterKane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2014 at 19:30
It is not well known, but most Renaissance art identifies the characters depicted in faint, and very hard to decipher text. That being so, with a fair amount of work and experience, it is usually possible to identify the people seen in the paintings. 

For example, the so-called 'African Man' by Mostaert was born in 1492, to a lady called Fatima, and named 'Ali'. His name is there, for all to see, but only if you know how to look (and admittedly also easier if you are able to do some digital enhancement in Photoshop!). At the time of his birth his mother probably 'belonged' to the brother of the man with the monopoly in the trade in slaves in Africa (Bartolomeo Marchionni). The guy was poisoned to death (I'm glad to say, by Ali and a friend) in 1503, and Fatima (and thus Ali) was then 'inherited' by the man's best friend. Bartolomeo's brother used two names - Iohes Marchionni, and Michele da Cuneo, and, I regret to say, his best friend was Leonardo da Vinci. And Ali's father? You wouldn't believe, so enough to say that Mostaert was Ali's uncle.

Ali is indeed the father of Dorothea, and it caused quite a scandal at the time, because the Queen of Denmark became pregnant with her in January 1520, when the King was away trying to conquer Sweden. The well dressed young man was a courtier in the court of Margaret (Regent of the Netherlands), where the Queen of Denmark grew up, and was not only famous, but extraordinarily popular. Indeed, he appears in quite a few works of art, including several by Michelangelo (he is the lad he sketched as a study for one of the more dramatic ignudi in the Sistine Chapel); one by Hieronymus Bosch - Ali is the young man who appears several times in the Garden of Earthly Delights; and Ali's death was commemorated half a century later by Veronese in his drawing of an 'African Man'. Note in that latter image the stamp in the bottom right corner is the crowned Tudor Rose of Elizabeth I, and the date of the sketch was 1558, the year she acceded to the throne. Enough to say she had a special interest in Ali, and deeply regretted his death. 

She didn't regret it enough though, to not sign an order in 1596 throwing all 'blackmoors' out of England, an order which included Ali's son... depicted in another drawing, this time by Carracci. And Carracci also expresses a reason why she did this, and it involves Philip II of Spain, the son of the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V referred to in your post. Ali's son also appears in a painting in the Manchester Galleries, by Passarroti, of Domenico Giuliani and Servant. Note the servant is the white guy doing the work, not the black guy, as most Caucasians (I am ashamed to say) are prone to assume. The black guy is Ali's son, Robert... and until last year no one had the first inkling of just how important he really was, or how much of traditional English history he would overturn. 

But this is supposed to be a post, not a book, so I'll stop here and see if you want to pursue it. I have all the visual evidence - where the text is on the paintings, and so on, and can provide it if you are interested.

Kind regards

Peter


Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4621
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2014 at 21:01
I am certainly interested! Especially in the "hidden" parts@!

Thanks for the good post!

Ron
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
Windemere View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 09-Oct-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 103
  Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2014 at 19:25
I believe that there's a bit of confusion taking place here. As far as I know, the portrait posted at the beginning of this thred by ThaKing (in 2012) is Princess Dorothea of Denmark (1504-1547), the daughter of King Frederik I of Denmark & Anna of Brandenburg. Dorothea married Albrecht, the last Grandmaster of the Teutonic Knights, who became the 1st Duke of Prussia.

However, Peter Kane is referring to a different individual, Princess Dorothea of Denmark (1520-1580), the daughter of King Christian II of Denmark & Isabella of Burgundy ( Isabella was the sister of Holy Roman Emperor Charles V). This Dorothea married Friedrich II, Elector Palatine of the Rhine. King Christian (her father) was deposed, and was succeeded by his uncle. However, Christian II continued to claim the throne, and he passed on this claim to his daughter. However, Dorothea and Friedrich had no children, so her claim lapsed.

Both of these Princess Dorotheas of Denmark have biographies on Wikipedia, along with their portraits. Nothing is mentioned about Ali being the biological father of Dorothea ( I presume the Dorothea born in 1520). I wonder if you could mention what sources there are that might give some additional information about her paternity ?   Thanks very much for any information that you can provide.
Windemere
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4621
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2014 at 19:23
Thank you so much Windemere for your excellent post above. Perhaps you cleared the air as it is said?

And Peter Kane, I think that most of us here would love to know the "secret" places left upon important paintings, that can lead one to the truth?

Come on man! Give it up?

Regards, Ron
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
kkhemet View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 11-Aug-2015
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1
  Quote kkhemet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2015 at 03:49

You're asking some excellent questions about this Germanic noble, Kurfurst Moritz von Sachsen by Hans Krell. But, I have yet to be able to find the origins of this portrait of him that shows him looking as if he's Blacker than the ace of spades. Can you get me any closer to the source for this painting by Hans Krell?

Yours Truly!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.110 seconds.