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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religi
    Posted: 05-May-2005 at 12:29
Hugo or anyone- is this a violation of seperation of church and state? I am sure if it was Christian certain liberal groups would be screaming ---"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

Our State Department is asking for grant proposals for "Islam: Scholarship and Practice in the United States" (thanks to Diana):

I tend to believe this is a violation and they are promoting a religion but what do you think? I do not think it is the government job either. I just get mad when they tear down war crosses from WWI Memorial parks. It is more of a historical and cultural issue for me.
I tend to see it as an attempt by certain groups to revise history and erase our Christian heritage. Like it or not it is part of our great history.
    Executive Summary:
    The Office of Citizen Exchanges of the Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs, U.S. Department of State, announces an open competition for one grant to support an international exchange project under the rubric "Islam: Scholarship and Practice in the United States.....see link for story

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 15:15
Eaglecap,

Read again the announcement; it seems that you misunderstood what it is about.

The State Department is not funding a proselytizing campaign in America, but a scholar exchange. Cleric and scholar exchanges are good. We want these influential leaders to understand, appreciate, and like America. They will go back to their countries and give a positive account of the country that will negate the jihadists propaganda. This is an excellent first step to winning their hearts and minds.

You do want Muslim clerics to have a positive view of the U.S., dont you? So why oppose this grant?


Here are the goals of the program.

The initiative "Islam: Scholarship and Practice in the United States" will support an international exchange of scholars and clerics - influential and recognized for their ability to communicate, either in scholarly writing or through sermons - from Egypt, Jordan, and one or more additional countries of the Middle East selected at the discretion of the applicant and included with strong and persuasive programmatic justification. Libya and Iran are not eligible for participation in this exchange. The objectives of the exchange are 1) to enhance the non-American participants' understanding of the place of religion, particularly Islam, in American life; 2) to broaden participants' awareness of and appreciation for the serious religious study conducted in the United States particularly the study of Islam; 3) to provide a forum for examination and discussion of the compatibility of religious practice and democratic social and political structures; the social benefits produced by mutually respectful coexistence among diverse religious communities; ways in which Islamic practice in the United States, in particular, functions in a multi-cultural, multi-religious context; and 4) to broaden the understanding of American scholars, clerics, and laypersons of the place of Islam in the societies of the Middle East.


By the way, I found a grant from the State Department that can give you money. I will PM the information.
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 15:45
Haven't you ever wonder what kind of people read jihadwatch? Well, we cannot comment about all its readers, but we can about those who posts comments on it.

Read their coments on the grant text!

Edited by hugoestr
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 16:25

It is nice to be advised of news. Even if it is twisted. Lets hope we can all differentiate between balanced journalism and idiologies that tend to fit an author's perspective only.

Hugoestr you sure have a fine eye for catching details.

 

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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 20:50

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Separation of Church and state is the most commonly misinterpreted part of the constitution. What it's saying is that America shall never have its own independant church that all americans must belong too, like what Henry VIII did to england.

Anyway, the amendment just says that congress will not recognize any church as being superior to the government. Nor will it recognize any church as being inferior to the government. (Since being inferior would mean that the government should regulate it, and being superior would mean it should regulate the government.)

This is why I see no problems with the government aiding religious organizations, after all the aid philosophical and political organizations.

Then again I'm a theocrat so what do I know.

Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 21:07
Originally posted by Seko

It is nice to be advised of news. Even if it is twisted. Lets hope we can all differentiate between balanced journalism and idiologies that tend to fit an author's perspective only.


Hugoestr you sure have a fine eye for catching details.




Thanks! I appreciate the comment.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 21:18
we shouldnt even sponseor scholar exchanges, I dont want all the idiots of all the different faiths to find out how much they really have in common with each other.  A truly free nation is totally incompatible with religion, and we shouldnt give anything to  any of these people n omatter where they are from.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2005 at 13:11
Originally posted by hugoestr

Haven't you ever wonder what kind of people read jihadwatch? Well, we cannot comment about all its readers, but we can about those who posts comments on it.

Read their coments on the grant text!


I have read some of the comments and like any forum you get a variety of poeple making comments with different levels of education. What do you mean what kind of people read Jihadwatch? They are people who want to hear what the mainstream news covers up or fails to report. I cannot help from thinking that any comment you read that does not agree with your liberal viewpoint about islam is foolish. I use to be much more liberal until I attended The Evergreen State College and really had a chance to see the true face of extreme libaralism. The libaralism that was from the Kennedy era I accept but today it is much more extreme. Jihad watch comes from multilple sources and he is very accurate in his reporting. I do not know what your ancestry is hugo but did your ancestors come under the yoke of Islamic oppression for 500 years? Show me a real democracy in these Islamic nations, don't say Turkey because it is not. They still persecute Christains for sharing their beliefs in public.
Non-Muslims are the majority in the U.S. but I am convinced if they outnumbered us in America then watch how their so-called tolerance of other faiths will vanish. I know the majority want to live peacefully with others but it seems that it is the radicals who control things. Like Seko says they misinterpret the Koran to an extreme, like some Christians do. They are free to believe their relgion as long as they do not attempt to force their relgion and laws onto us. I believe Muslims can contribute greatly to our culture like Christians and Jews have in the past. Although, the roots of America is Judeo/Christian not Judeo-Christain-Islamic. Sorry Seko it was my ancestors who created this nation not yours, although they are now part of this culture and hopefully will add great things to it, the moderates like yourself.

Edited by eaglecap
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2005 at 13:52
Originally posted by Tobodai

we shouldnt even sponseor scholar exchanges, I dont want all the idiots of all the different faiths to find out how much they really have in common with each other. A truly free nation is totally incompatible with religion, and we shouldnt give anything to any of these people n omatter where they are from.


Stalin agreed with you!!!!

A truly free nations allows free thought, beliefs, freedom of ideology and religious thought. Communism attempted to get rid of religion so would you call that   freedom????
I disagree and in fact a truly free nation supports freedom of religion. Some of the worlds great art came from religious thought; ancient Greece, the reformation and yes Islamic art!!! Not to mention art influenced by hindus etc etc. With or without religion people will find reasons to fight.
My point earlier was if this was done with fundemental Christian scholars the left-wing media would be having a fit. I need to review it some more to decide if it is right for the government to use public funds to support it. I support using public funds for the spread of culture but not religion, although it was Congress who set up the Bible Society- ironic!!

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2005 at 21:56

Stalin replaced gos with the state, I would remove the interference of both god and the state, big difference.  I know I believe in personal freedom more than most in this forum, including you.  I dont care what individuals believe in at all and I dont think the government should promote anything in either negative or positive.  I just think religious views are incomopatible with a free government system, for example people can believe whatever they want but I damn dont want beliefs that regualte freedom in government, and if a person is of strong religious faith and they are in government they probably seek to regulat ethe bhavior of others.

 

Also it has to do with funding, I dont think taxpayers should have to pay for anything that doesnt benefit all of them.  For example the military and cancer research potentially benefits all American citizens so they should pay for it, scholarly exchanges wont help the average American, so why should they pay for it?

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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2005 at 22:00
Okay, Eaglecap! I wanted to spare everyone this, but since you insist, I will quote the comments that people posted about the grant proposal.

I will publish the comments in the order they appeared on the link. I will highlight the phrases that personally revolted me. I wouldn't want to hang around these readers of Jihadwatch myself. Every one else can make their own mind.

WARNING EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE POST FOLLOW. If you are European, American, or a follower of Islam, prepare to yourself to be insulted.

Samuel Adams:"The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil Constitution, are worth defending at all hazards; and it is our duty to defend them against all attacksWe have received them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors: they purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood,and transmitted them to us with care and diligence. It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or to be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men.".
Posted by: KAOSKTRL [TypeKey Profile Page] at May 5, 2005 07:28 AM

It would be more fun if they would give away free knives to muslims for throat slitting of infidels.
Acceptance of rape of infidel women.
Lessons on the acceptance of dhimmitude and payment of jizya.
Include courses on the fine art of wife-beating too.
Posted by: hutchrun [TypeKey Profile Page] at May 5, 2005 07:35 AM

Bend over dhimmi sheeple of the United States of America. This is your tax dollars at work. Some 'brilliant' intellectual over at the State Department is going to change a 2000 year old religion. Riiiighhtt. Never underestimate the blind ambition of a bureaucrat.

This is money which would be better spent on munitions.
Posted by: St_James [TypeKey Profile Page] at May 5, 2005 07:53 AM

BTW this is how it goes in what may possibly in the most `moderate` muslim country in the world - Malaysia:

`Non-Malays living in the vicinity of mosques in Kuala Lumpur hear this call to arms against the non-Muslims through high-pitches megaphones often enough to be dismissed as untrue. I suspect Dr Yusof is annoyed a Muslim has spilled the beans; if a non-Muslim had done so, he could be ignored. Perhaps Dr Yusof should also tell us if Christmas carols mentioning Jesus should be banned at a Christmas party organised by the government. Was there a ban? Of course there was. Father OC Lim, who questioned it, is too senior in the Roman Catholic Church, and not a high Muslim cleric, to shoot his mouth off.`
AND
`Dato' Seri Najib kicked the ball first to insist to insist none should openly debate if Muslims could slander the followers of other religions,`

http://www.mggpillai.com/article...e.php3? sid=2049
`Dato' Seri Najib is the Deputy Prime Minister there.

And the State Dept. believes it knows more about Islam than the muslims. Lord, what biight sparks they must be.
Posted by: hutchrun [TypeKey Profile Page] at May 5, 2005 08:03 AM

Your guide into the dark mind of Mohammed:


The bizarre circumstances of Mohammed's "revelations": "it was a painful sight to behold the nervousness of his features, the distortion of his countenance and the anxiety of mind portrayed on his face"


How worldly ambition gradually blinded Mohammed's mind and overwhelmed his early searches for the true God

How Mohammed borrowed many of his ideas of Paradise from contemporary Jews and Christians -- and mixed them with base and lewd imaginings

How Mohammed again and again justified his rapine and licentiousness with new "divine revelations"

Why Mohammed grew so bitter against both Jews and Christians, after initially courting their favor

Mohammed's fateful order that all churches and synagogues in his domains be demolished

How Mohammed ordered the assassinations of several of his chief opponents

How even Mohammed's replies to his critics in the Koran are insufficient to refute the charge that he was a false prophet who fabricated revelations

Why Mohammed adopted -- and later discarded -- many Jewish customs and ritual observances

Islamic tolerance: Mohammed let Jews and Christians live in his domains -- if they paid tribute and accepted second-class status

What the Koran really teaches about Christianity and Christ

What Mohammed learned from heretical Christian sects -- and incorporated into the Koran

The early history of Islam: just as bloody as the life of its founder

How the Koran doesn't limit Muslims to four wives, as is widely believed, but actually sets no real limit

Why the new religion Mohammed taught became so commonly identified with war and politics

The crisis caused in Islam by the death of Mohammed's only son -- which continues to this day

Sunnis, Shiites, Sufis, Motazalites and more: the differences between the various Muslim sects

http://www.hebookservice.com/bookpage.asp?prod_cd=C6614&sour _cd=HAE042001

Posted by: hutchrun [TypeKey Profile Page] at May 5, 2005 08:14 AM

Suckers!

Waste of time & money. It will result in more academic idiots and would be ME 'experts' on Saudi expense accounts to lecture us about "ISLAM'- like John Esposito...

Ward Churchill comes to mind...
Posted by: Terminator [TypeKey Profile Page] at May 5, 2005 08:46 AM

The taxpayers of the United States have little recourse to challenge wasteful government spending - but in the case of the government "establishing" religion through the use of government funds, taxpayers *do* have recourse through the courts.

This grant should be challenged as a violation of the First Amendment as soon as the submission period is over (the case might not yet be ripe). The "clerics" aspect of the program would appear to violate the establishment clause, although the taxpayer might get stuck paying for the "scholar" transfer.
Posted by: Darius LaMonica [TypeKey Profile Page] at May 5, 2005 09:20 AM

We were led to believe that Rice would bring clarity of thought and understanding to Foggy Bottom.
Is it possible that this is the President's foreign policy that State is representing?
Posted by: Cynic [TypeKey Profile Page] at May 5, 2005 09:42 AM

Unbelievable, totally unbelievable. How is this possible? Who are the idiots in the State Department (or in the White House) that are going along with this foolish enterprise?

Europeans sold out because the Muslim world "guaranteed the oil supply dependent upon solving the Palestinian problem" favorable to Islam. Now that Europe has capitulated, the U.S. is the next target.

The billboard campaign for dhimmitude is important. The struggle is on more than one front. Be aware that we all need to put our efforts into informing demonstrating the consequences of this policy, and we must make them listen! Excuse me, I know that I'm shouting, but we must be effective.
Posted by: epg [TypeKey Profile Page] at May 5, 2005 09:56 AM
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2005 at 02:41
I did not say you would not get some idiots that reply. You are dealing with all kinds of people. It is still not take away William Spencer's work.
I have already read some of the foolish comments and you can find that anywhere. I agree some of the comments here are offensive but that is not his fault. I still believe that radical Islam is a threat to our freedoms and way of life. Already in Australia you cannot speak against Islam in a public forum or at a church. It is a crime there and that could happen here. Any type of criticism of their prophet or their religion is an offense, do you want that??? You can complain to william Spencer and I might just do so maybe he will better moderate the forum.
They are free to have their religion here but I will fight for our freedoms at any cost. "Give me freedom or give me death!!" patrick Henry


Comments hugo read please!
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)

Edited by eaglecap
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2005 at 05:01

I have to agree with Eaglecap on this issue for once.  Radical Islam I do not feel is a legitimiate military threat, but its a symptom of ignorance and foolishness that seeks to rob intelligent people like me of a free society, the same of course goes for Christianity, Judaisim, and all the rest, although the Abrahamic ones seem more absolutist and threatening.

Desert cults the lot of them!

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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2005 at 14:29
Originally posted by eaglecap

I did not say you would not get some idiots that reply. You are dealing with all kinds of people. It is still not take away William Spencer's work.
I have already read some of the foolish comments and you can find that anywhere. I agree some of the comments here are offensive but that is not his fault. I still believe that radical Islam is a threat to our freedoms and way of life. Already in Australia you cannot speak against Islam in a public forum or at a church. It is a crime there and that could happen here. Any type of criticism of their prophet or their religion is an offense, do you want that??? You can complain to william Spencer and I might just do so maybe he will better moderate the forum.
They are free to have their religion here but I will fight for our freedoms at any cost. "Give me freedom or give me death!!" patrick Henry


Comments hugo read please!
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)


You may have noticed that I didn't say anything about Spencer. You also seemed to miss that I never claimed that all readers are like this.

What I said was that some readers, some of the ones that posts, are extremely bigotted. The fact that people who go to this site put up with this nonsense is telling.

Now, I don't like extremist muslims either. They are a proven threat to the safety of the world. My problem with people posting in the site is that they equate Islam with the jihadists radicals.

What drives me the craziest about the bigotted posters is that they are actually playing the role of the anti-Islam westerner that hates and insults Islam which only confirms the statements of fundamentalist muslims.

If anti-western statements of jihadists are abhorrent to us, so should the anti-Islam sttatements be.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2005 at 15:41
I only focus on the extreme religionist in Islam. I would say the same about Christians and Mormons but currently they are not the real threat to our society.
Peaceful moderate Muslims I support like Seko 100% and I believe that they can add to our culture in a positive manner, like many cultures have.

I am sorry you misunderstood me and I was agreeing that there are some bigots and fools who post on that forum. I hope he moderates it better. We can agree to that! The forum does not cause me to hate or dislike all Muslims but only the radicals who threaten our nation and freedoms. I keep in mind that many Muslims in this nation want to avoid this radicalism.

Edited by eaglecap
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  Quote Idanthyrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2005 at 20:09

Originally posted by eaglecap

[QUOTE=hugoestr]Although, the roots of America is Judeo/Christian not Judeo-Christain-Islamic. Sorry Seko it was my ancestors who created this nation not yours, although they are now part of this culture and hopefully will add great things to it, the moderates like yourself.

I always thought that the ancestors of this nation were the Native Americans. Where are they now? Dead mostly. You talk about tyranny of the majority, ask yourself what are things like now? Christians abusing a muslim minority instead of the other way around.

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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2005 at 21:46
Originally posted by eaglecap

I only focus on the extreme religionist in Islam. I would say the same about Christians and Mormons but currently they are not the real threat to our society.
Peaceful moderate Muslims I support like Seko 100% and I believe that they can add to our culture in a positive manner, like many cultures have.

I am sorry you misunderstood me and I was agreeing that there are some bigots and fools who post on that forum. I hope he moderates it better. We can agree to that! The forum does not cause me to hate or dislike all Muslims but only the radicals who threaten our nation and freedoms. I keep in mind that many Muslims in this nation want to avoid this radicalism.


Eaglecap,

As I have said many times before, I know that you do not harbor bigotted feelings towards other people. In fact, you are one of the most culturally respectful person that I know. No reading material is going to change that about you.

Now let me discuss jihadwatch. Media outlets give its readership what they want. The fact that Islam-haters go to this site is not surprising. The fact that Spencer drags his feet on moderating the site is reprehensible, especially knowing that his site will attract many haters.

Spencer could have volunteer moderators if he doesn't want to pay people. My suspicion is that he doesn't want to moderate because he is afraid that his site' traffic would go down dramatically. I would rather keep my credibility than serve bigots, but I am strange that way.

But that is about Spencer and his site. I am glad that we have gotten our misunderstanding out of the way
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2005 at 02:46
Originally posted by hugoestr

Originally posted by eaglecap

I only focus on the extreme religionist in Islam. I would say the same about Christians and Mormons but currently they are not the real threat to our society.
Peaceful moderate Muslims I support like Seko 100% and I believe that they can add to our culture in a positive manner, like many cultures have.

I am sorry you misunderstood me and I was agreeing that there are some bigots and fools who post on that forum. I hope he moderates it better. We can agree to that! The forum does not cause me to hate or dislike all Muslims but only the radicals who threaten our nation and freedoms. I keep in mind that many Muslims in this nation want to avoid this radicalism.


Eaglecap,

As I have said many times before, I know that you do not harbor bigotted feelings towards other people. In fact, you are one of the most culturally respectful person that I know. No reading material is going to change that about you.

Now let me discuss jihadwatch. Media outlets give its readership what they want. The fact that Islam-haters go to this site is not surprising. The fact that Spencer drags his feet on moderating the site is reprehensible, especially knowing that his site will attract many haters.

Spencer could have volunteer moderators if he doesn't want to pay people. My suspicion is that he doesn't want to moderate because he is afraid that his site' traffic would go down dramatically. I would rather keep my credibility than serve bigots, but I am strange that way.

But that is about Spencer and his site. I am glad that we have gotten our misunderstanding out of the way



I suppose it is because I am a mutt and I enjoy learning about other people. I have traveled a lot so that helps. Some of my underlaying concerns about the world is the enviromental decline and the extinction of other species by mankind. Nature and wildness are part of my nature and so it is part of my concerns. Maybe I was an Native American in my other life-lol. I agree with you on the offensive statements and I will send a complaint to William Spencer but the forum does keep me aware of the current events. I have no anger towards the Turks but I have not forgotten my Greek past, just forgiven. This is why I am even more concerned about the loss of our freedoms and that could even come from the Patriot act. We are losing them and there is nothing we can do.
Don't forget tonight on coast to coast am there is a show on illegal immigration. If you want you can call the guest and challenge him. I know it is on late in your area. I am happy you have a wife and hope that things will work out with me and Heather in that direction- she is a cutie. Funny, she is very conservative but takes your view on illegal immigration, so we avoid the topic-lol We never fight though just debate!! lol lol
I have a philosophy that whenever I have an ugly racist thought come in I try to meet someone from that ethnic group or race and get to know them. In Spokane it is hard because it is mostly white but on campus it is great and it works. I think my late Greek mother would come back and haunt me if I had turned that way- http://www.coasttocoastam.com/
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