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Post Civil War US seeks revenge on Great Britain

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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Post Civil War US seeks revenge on Great Britain
    Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 20:46
Oh bull. There weren't nearly enough Indians to do that besides the fact the US obviouslt leave enough border forces to deal with them. Your logic= a nation with vastly more and more experienced soldiers can't defeat the hugely outnumbered Canadians. The fact is mostly only major and mid size towns would be taken and quite easily at that. A qucik suprise attack and Canada is doomed. The US can then garrison and build up defences . Suprise is the real killer here.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 20:38
According to this website they only entered production in 1867 and only saw limited use. It wasn't until 1869 when there were sufficient rifles for an invading force of 50000. Plus the US quartermasters were notoriously tightfisted and preferred issuing troops with obsolete kit to save money. Some regiments would indeed get the new guns, but the majority would still have unconverted Springfields. While all the Yankees head north, guess what happens out West: the Indians (aided by their brothers in Canada and British allies with Sniders) burn settlements, destroy railroads and kill white settlers with impunity as most of the bluecoats have been sent to reinforce the invasion. Protests would force the US government to divert troops to deal with the Indian threat
http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/m66.html
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  Quote Jack Torrance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 20:33
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Same goes for the Brits. The Americans would have many more cannon. Any evidence for the Union infantryman of 1868 being inferior in weaponry?


There isn't any. Nick is assuming the US infantry grunt is still carrying the Springfield model 1861 into battle in 1868. Unless I'm mistaken it was the Fetterman massacre in 1866 during Red Clouds War that changed US policy in arming infantry with repeaters and breech loaders.
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  Quote Jack Torrance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 20:21
Originally posted by Nick1986

These repeaters were only used by a few cavalry regiments (and as private purchase), not your average infantry grunt who was still armed with a muzzle-loader. Some Canadian troops also had Spencers, including the Queen's Own Rifles of Toronto
http://www.qor.com/history/ridgeway.html


Nice story, Nick. Too bad these troops fled the scene of battle LOL BTW, only one of the companies (the 5th) of the Q.O.R were equipped with Spencer Rifles. In the Union Army during the CW the cavalry was equipped with Spencer Carbines while some infantry units had the Spencer Rifle. After the war muzzle loaders were considered obsolete (duh!) and many Springfield Model 1863 were converted to breech loaders. These became the Springfield Model 1866 and some units were equipped with these rifles. Of course it was in the west fighting against Indians that we see Spencers, Winchesters and Henry's being used but the Winchester factory was based in Connecticut and if war had broken out against the UK in all probability US infantry would have been issued Spencer Rifles and the Springfield 1866 "trapdoor" breech loaders, which could fire over 15 rounds a minute by an experienced trooper. In fact, due to the low cost of converting the Springfield muzzle loaders to breech loaders it would most likely have been this rifle that the regular grunt would have taken into battle. 
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 19:47
I said evidnce for them being armed primarily with this weapon in 1868.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 19:44

Have you ever fired an 1861 Springfield Delenda? It's difficult enough an experienced shooter to accurately fire three rounds a minute, never mind in real battlefield conditions where better armed opponents are shooting back. The Springfield is also prone to misfires: i had to drill out the nipple on mine as it kept getting blocked
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 19:30
Same goes for the Brits. The Americans would have many more cannon. Any evidence for the Union infantryman of 1868 being inferior in weaponry?
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 19:16

Not every Brit wore red: these skirmishers from the Royal Greenjackets wear dark green. Assuming the Yanks engaged the Brits in open battle, they might fire a volley at the red line, but once they had reloaded they would have incurred heavy casualties from the Brits' Sniders and would probably scatter in panic. Well-trained defenders in strong positions have the advantage over more numerous (but poorly equipped) attackers. If the Yanks wanted to capture one of the forts they would have to cross the ramparts, get through the ditch then somehow breach the gate, all the while being fired upon by artillery and riflemen
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 16:45
That dress would make them so easy targets if they wore it. A nice round figure?
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 16:05

Each Victorian regiment comprised 8 companies (approximately 1000 men). A brigade consisted of several regiments. The 60th Rifles and 78th Highlanders were in Montreal, the 41st Welsh regiment were in Ontario, and the 30th Cambridgeshire were in Nova Scotia

Edited by Nick1986 - 22-Aug-2012 at 16:12
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 06:32
These repeaters were only used by a few cavalry regiments (and as private purchase), not your average infantry grunt who was still armed with a muzzle-loader. Some Canadian troops also had Spencers, including the Queen's Own Rifles of Toronto
http://www.qor.com/history/ridgeway.html
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  Quote Jack Torrance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2012 at 22:40
Originally posted by Nick1986

It wasn't just the miltia you had to worry about: there were also many professional British soldiers in Canada, including a Royal Artillery battalion at Ontario, the 100th Regiment of Foot at Montreal, the 69th South Lincolnshire Regiment, and the Rifle Brigade at Quebec. It would be like the Fenian raids, but on a much larger scale: regular soldiers with breechloading rifles that fired at least 10 rounds a minute would inflict heavy casualties on the Yanks whose muskets could fire three rounds a minute in the hands of a skilled soldier. The more numerous Canadian militia and Home Guard would finish off any depleted Yankee force that made it past the forts or (miraculously) managed to defeat the regular army
http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3018


Nick,

The US had Spencer Repeating Rifles which could fire 20 shots a minute; the Henry Repeating Rifle which could fire 28 shots a minute and the Winchester Model 1866 which was an improved version of the Henry.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2012 at 20:42
Specificy please?
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  Quote d' artagnan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2012 at 20:25
Your not thinking of the shear number of fronts the north would have to fight on. Too many different supply lines and too few troops in too many places.

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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2012 at 19:12
Numbers please.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2012 at 19:10
It wasn't just the miltia you had to worry about: there were also many professional British soldiers in Canada, including a Royal Artillery battalion at Ontario, the 100th Regiment of Foot at Montreal, the 69th South Lincolnshire Regiment, and the Rifle Brigade at Quebec. It would be like the Fenian raids, but on a much larger scale: regular soldiers with breechloading rifles that fired at least 10 rounds a minute would inflict heavy casualties on the Yanks whose muskets could fire three rounds a minute in the hands of a skilled soldier. The more numerous Canadian militia and Home Guard would finish off any depleted Yankee force that made it past the forts or (miraculously) managed to defeat the regular army
http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3018
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2012 at 18:06
Militiamen are not soldiers. Neither are reservists. Britain does not have the manpower to police her empire and land some huge force in America.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2012 at 17:55
The Canadians had over 37,000 active militiamen in 1868, plus nearly 619,000 reservists to call up. This doesn't take into account regular soldiers, marines and sailors who could be mobilised from British naval bases like Bermuda. Britain's military had undergone extensive modernisation in the 1860s so they could fight two hostile nations at the same time (most likely France and Russia). The US would be no match for them, even if you exclude the British regular troops policing the colonies
http://www.lermuseum.org/en/chronology/young-nation-1867-1898/first-federal-militia-act-1868/
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2012 at 17:41
The US had hundreds of thousands of experienced soldiers. A quick attack and Canada and the Islands are seized. Fortiifications built Canada populated and garrisoned and GB is screwed. She doesn't have the supply lines or men to fight the US in North America. The US navy is perfect for coastal duty which is what they'll be doing.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2012 at 17:35

Even if the British and Canadians didn't repel the US advance they would delay it long enough for the Royal Navy to arrive. Most US volunteer troops were farmers and shopkeepers with less than three years experience. By contrast, the British army was full of seasoned career soldiers with over 10 years service who had seen action in India and the Crimea. Technology also favored the British defenders: they had breechloading rifles that fired brass cartridges like the Snider-Enfield, while the Yanks were still using muzzle-loading muskets. By the time the US adopted the trapdoor Springfield in 1873, the British had the Martini-Henry of Zulu War fame


Edited by Nick1986 - 21-Aug-2012 at 18:02
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