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Pyrrhus of Epirus

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TheAlaniDragonRising View Drop Down
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pyrrhus of Epirus
    Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 15:27
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Unable to make any significant gains in action, Pyrrhus deployed his elephants, held in reserve until now. The Roman cavalry was threatening his flank too strongly. Aghast at the sight of these strange and brooding creatures which none had seen before, the horses galloped away and threw the Roman legion into rout. Pyrrhus then launched his Thessalian cavalry among the disorganized legions, which completed the Romans' defeat. The Romans fell back across the river and Pyrrhus held the field.
This was one of his brilliant tactical moves and use of a reserve.

His force began to waver, and the Romans gave a thunderous cheer at the turn of events. Grasping the magnitude of the situation, Pyrrhus rode forward, bare-headed, along the lines of his men to show he was still living. This show of bravery strengthened their resolve, and the battle raged on

This is an example of his bravery. He usually fought in the front helping his men fight,


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Heraclea#section_3
Like I've already said, and something easily worked out from his wiki page' Pyrrhus was out matched, but even he in the middle of his own ineptitude was unable to extend his own debacle due to the type of aid he had received in the shape of the war elephants. I mean, war elephants in reserve, why on earth would you do it?
As for the removing of his helmet and parading himself, it has nothing to do with bravery at all, it's called self preservation. Had he not, the massacre of his own men when they tried to turn and flee would probably have had him within the numbers of the dead. It's not that unusual for commanders in his position to take those actions. William the Conqueror did the same at Hastings. 
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 15:31
You have failed to refute any of my evidence. He was a brilliant tactician and brave as told in the ancient sources. His victory at Heraclea was entirely his own doing.

Edited by Delenda est Roma - 19-Aug-2012 at 15:33
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 15:35
His ineptitude? Tactically he was one of the best of his era. He matched pretty much everyone save a select few. No one Rome had was in the same league.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 17:53
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

You have failed to refute any of my evidence. He was a brilliant tactician and brave as told in the ancient sources. His victory at Heraclea was entirely his own doing.
You're going to have to be more specific I'm afraid, Delenda est Roma, as I do not remember anything at all now, that you've put which constitutes the kind of thing that I need to refute. Can you please direct me to the post/s you require me to look at more closely? Btw Which story teller put forward Pyrrhus' bravery?
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 17:57
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

His ineptitude? Tactically he was one of the best of his era. He matched pretty much everyone save a select few. No one Rome had was in the same league.
The best testimony to a great tactical genius is the victory at the end of the campaign. At the end of the day, and when it really mattered, Rome gave Pyrrhus a good kicking, and sent him away with his tail between his legs.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 17:59
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Unable to make any significant gains in action, Pyrrhus deployed his elephants, held in reserve until now. The Roman cavalry was threatening his flank too strongly. Aghast at the sight of these strange and brooding creatures which none had seen before, the horses galloped away and threw the Roman legion into rout. Pyrrhus then launched his Thessalian cavalry among the disorganized legions, which completed the Romans' defeat. The Romans fell back across the river and Pyrrhus held the field.
This was one of his brilliant tactical moves and use of a reserve.

His force began to waver, and the Romans gave a thunderous cheer at the turn of events. Grasping the magnitude of the situation, Pyrrhus rode forward, bare-headed, along the lines of his men to show he was still living. This show of bravery strengthened their resolve, and the battle raged on

This is an example of his bravery. He usually fought in the front helping his men fight,


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Heraclea#section_3


Look again.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 18:04
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

His ineptitude? Tactically he was one of the best of his era. He matched pretty much everyone save a select few. No one Rome had was in the same league.
The best testimony to a great tactical genius is the victory at the end of the campaign. At the end of the day, and when it really mattered, Rome gave Pyrrhus a good kicking, and sent him away with his tail between his legs.


Well here again you're wrong in two ways. His battles had been costly yet he had lost none of them. He kept garrisons in Italy for years afterwards and withdrew to Epirus. His last battle had been indecisive. Now Napoleon, Gustavus Adolphus, Hannibal, Robert Lee, Demetrius, and numerous others were great military men. They all however lost. Does this make them "inept"? No it doesn't. Rome had no one even close to Pyrrhus' caliber. He was a tactical wizard and numerous historians recognize this.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 18:10
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

You have failed to refute any of my evidence. He was a brilliant tactician and brave as told in the ancient sources. His victory at Heraclea was entirely his own doing.
You're going to have to be more specific I'm afraid, Delenda est Roma, as I do not remember anything at all now, that you've put which constitutes the kind of thing that I need to refute. Can you please direct me to the post/s you require me to look at more closely? Btw Which story teller put forward Pyrrhus' bravery?


Despite your attempts to denigrate ancient historians they still have far more weight than your opinion. I followed Plutarch and Cassus Dio.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 18:19
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Unable to make any significant gains in action, Pyrrhus deployed his elephants, held in reserve until now. The Roman cavalry was threatening his flank too strongly. Aghast at the sight of these strange and brooding creatures which none had seen before, the horses galloped away and threw the Roman legion into rout. Pyrrhus then launched his Thessalian cavalry among the disorganized legions, which completed the Romans' defeat. The Romans fell back across the river and Pyrrhus held the field.
This was one of his brilliant tactical moves and use of a reserve.

His force began to waver, and the Romans gave a thunderous cheer at the turn of events. Grasping the magnitude of the situation, Pyrrhus rode forward, bare-headed, along the lines of his men to show he was still living. This show of bravery strengthened their resolve, and the battle raged on

This is an example of his bravery. He usually fought in the front helping his men fight,


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Heraclea#section_3


Look again.
I looked, I saw, I read about a man so scared while in battle, that he hid in another man's clothes. There's a really brave man for you. 
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 18:30
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Unable to make any significant gains in action, Pyrrhus deployed his elephants, held in reserve until now. The Roman cavalry was threatening his flank too strongly. Aghast at the sight of these strange and brooding creatures which none had seen before, the horses galloped away and threw the Roman legion into rout. Pyrrhus then launched his Thessalian cavalry among the disorganized legions, which completed the Romans' defeat. The Romans fell back across the river and Pyrrhus held the field.
This was one of his brilliant tactical moves and use of a reserve.

His force began to waver, and the Romans gave a thunderous cheer at the turn of events. Grasping the magnitude of the situation, Pyrrhus rode forward, bare-headed, along the lines of his men to show he was still living. This show of bravery strengthened their resolve, and the battle raged on

This is an example of his bravery. He usually fought in the front helping his men fight,


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Heraclea#section_3


Look again.
I looked, I saw, I read about a man so scared while in battle, that he hid in another man's clothes. There's a really brave man for you. 


Didn't think you read it. He used a clever stratagem. He still fought just not making himself a target. It worked well and when needed he showed himself and fought in the frontline. Don't dare call him a coward. Have you fought on the frontlines risking your life? He risked himself every battle and was a hero in battle. You fail to mention his brilliant tactical moves . Please read what I post.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 18:31
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Well here again you're wrong in two ways. His battles had been costly yet he had lost none of them. He kept garrisons in Italy for years afterwards and withdrew to Epirus. His last battle had been indecisive. Now Napoleon, Gustavus Adolphus, Hannibal, Robert Lee, Demetrius, and numerous others were great military men. They all however lost. Does this make them "inept"? No it doesn't. Rome had no one even close to Pyrrhus' caliber. He was a tactical wizard and numerous historians recognize this.
No not wrong, Delenda est Roma, had he won the campaign he wouldn't have been going anywhere. He knew he was on the back foot, and got the hell out of dodge. I agree with you on those other names that I only half know, all of them losers. How inept could a person be, Delenda est Roma, when you're saying he was meant to be this great genius but his forces are ripped to shreds, and can't improve on his position against those who you say weren't so good?
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 18:43
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Well here again you're wrong in two ways. His battles had been costly yet he had lost none of them. He kept garrisons in Italy for years afterwards and withdrew to Epirus. His last battle had been indecisive. Now Napoleon, Gustavus Adolphus, Hannibal, Robert Lee, Demetrius, and numerous others were great military men. They all however lost. Does this make them "inept"? No it doesn't. Rome had no one even close to Pyrrhus' caliber. He was a tactical wizard and numerous historians recognize this.
No not wrong, Delenda est Roma, had he won the campaign he wouldn't have been going anywhere. He knew he was on the back foot, and got the hell out of dodge. I agree with you on those other names that I only half know, all of them losers. How inept could a person be, Delenda est Roma, when you're saying he was meant to be this great genius but his forces are ripped to shreds, and can't improve on his position against those who you say weren't so good?


Tut tut. You do know the meaning of tactical correct? Tactics are for battles not campaigns which is what I stated. He was a wizard TACTICALLY. Napoleon a loser? I recommend you read a history book on him look at Austerlitz or Ulm. His Italian campaign or Austrian Campaigns. Hannibal presented us with Cannae, Gustavus Adolphus with Breteinfield and revolutionized warfare, Demetrius recognized seapower and won numerous canpaigns and battles. Lee also beat his numerically superior opponents. If you would like to call them losers back up your false accusations. Can you produce a single source to call any of these men less than a compotent general? Just one? If you read any of their achievements you would be ashamed and if you did an still spoke ignorantly this conversation is worthless.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 18:48
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma


Didn't think you read it. He used a clever stratagem. He still fought just not making himself a target. It worked well and when needed he showed himself and fought in the frontline. Don't dare call him a coward. Have you fought on the frontlines risking your life? He risked himself every battle and was a hero in battle. You fail to mention his brilliant tactical moves . Please read what I post.
You call it a clever stratagem, but put yourself in the other man's shoes, who is braver, the leader hiding in another man's clothes, or the walking target in his leaders clothes? Some hero.
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 18:54
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Didn't think you read it. He used a clever stratagem. He still fought just not making himself a target. It worked well and when needed he showed himself and fought in the frontline. Don't dare call him a coward. Have you fought on the frontlines risking your life? He risked himself every battle and was a hero in battle. You fail to mention his brilliant tactical moves . Please read what I post.
You call it a clever stratagem, but put yourself in the other man's shoes, who is braver, the leader hiding in another man's clothes, or the walking target in his leaders clothes? Some hero.


Braver the man who lives to fight another day than the one who dies in vain.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 18:59
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

 Despite your attempts to denigrate ancient historians they still have far more weight than your opinion. I followed Plutarch and Cassus Dio.

"Plutarch stretches and occasionally fabricates....." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch#Life_of_Pyrrhus
"Dio attempted to emulate Thucydides in his writing style, but came up short both in arrangement and the presentation of the materials and in the soundness of his viewpoint and accuracy of his reasoning." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassius_Dio#Roman_History

So clear and concise wikipedia in comparison. 
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 19:01
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

 Despite your attempts to denigrate ancient historians they still have far more weight than your opinion. I followed Plutarch and Cassus Dio.

"<span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.200000762939453px; ">Plutarch stretches and occasionally fabricates....." </span>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch#Life_of_Pyrrhus
"<span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.200000762939453px; ">Dio attempted to emulate </span>Thucydides<span style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.200000762939453px; "> in his writing style, but came up short both in arrangement and the presentation of the materials and in the soundness of his viewpoint and accuracy of his reasoning." </span>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassius_Dio#Roman_History
So clear and concise wikipedia in comparison. 


What exactly is your point if you posess one at all?
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 19:03
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma


Braver the man who lives to fight another day than the one who dies in vain.
So the other man dies for the so called leader's folly. This could very well mean that every coward in history has been wronged, for they are within a band of those mortals known as the brave. No I don't think so. 
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 19:08
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

 Tut tut. You do know the meaning of tactical correct? Tactics are for battles not campaigns which is what I stated. He was a wizard TACTICALLY. Napoleon a loser? I recommend you read a history book on him look at Austerlitz or Ulm. His Italian campaign or Austrian Campaigns. Hannibal presented us with Cannae, Gustavus Adolphus with Breteinfield and revolutionized warfare, Demetrius recognized seapower and won numerous canpaigns and battles. Lee also beat his numerically superior opponents. If you would like to call them losers back up your false accusations. Can you produce a single source to call any of these men less than a compotent general? Just one? If you read any of their achievements you would be ashamed and if you did an still spoke ignorantly this conversation is worthless.
Tactics are for battles and not for campaigns, how very novel. As for the others being losers, I noted what you yourself had said, you said they all lost.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 19:10
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

What exactly is your point if you posess one at all?
In regards to which part?
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  Quote Delenda est Roma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 19:10
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma


Braver the man who lives to fight another day than the one who dies in vain.
So the other man dies for the so called leader's folly. This could very well mean that every coward in history has been wronged, for they are within a band of those mortals known as the brave. No I don't think so. 


He lived to fight again and so he did. He fought till the day he died. He was a warrior through and through. Your argument has no merit whatsoever. His stratagem was brilliant and worked. If he died his whole army was lost so he saved lives. You have no argument. He was tactically brilliant and brave. I provided my evidence you opinions.
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